Complete Race Customization data, info on built in racial abilities

[Alexfrog]

Race Customization: How to choose your race.


As we all begin to play and learn Master of Orion 3, most of us will likely experiment with race customization. Customizing your race is a great way to try and enhance your abilities, to improve the strength of your race by trading off weaker or less needed abilities for better ones.

Of course, we don’t really know what is better or worse yet, though many people will have their preferences. Only experimentation will reveal what abilities are good to get, and which ones can be sacrificed. Also, player strategy will also play a role, as will other factors (like size of map, etc.)

At the moment (date of release) the only ones who could really give any sound race advice are the Beta Testers. I recommend Lore Weaver’s strategy guide for some tips on race strategies and customization.

In Master of Orion 3, different abilities can vary in terms of cost, between the different empires. For example, for most empires, a level of Bioharvesting ability costs 20 points, but for the Sakkra it costs 10 points. Clearly, this leads to the following idea: “If you are Sakkra, you should pay to get Superior Bioharvesting, as then you are basically getting “Free points”. Also, if you don’t want to play a race with superior bioharvesting, you should NOT play the Sakkra, as if you did that you would be squandering some potential points. In that case, it probable better to take a different race and customize them to what you want.

The way that race customization works in Master of Orion 3 is that your abilities start at the level of the race you choose, which is considered to be “Zero” points. Lowering this gives you more points (negative race picks used), while raising abilities costs picks.

An easier way to think about it is to think in terms of total number of points you have to spend on your race. Merely reduce all your skills to the lowest possible level, and then the number of points you have to spend is that race’s number of race points. Of course, there are a few things we need to include in that to make it accurate. First of all, some races cannot select certain traits as “poor”. Thus, lowering all the way only puts you down to average. Thus, you should add to the number of race picks for that race a number of points equal to the standard cost of that ability. For example, Humans cannot select poor diplomacy. Thus, 20 points should be added the their total to represent that they are getting Average diplomacy for “Free”. When you reduce all of the human’s stats to the lowest levels you can, you will see that you have 310 picks to spend. However, since you also have Average Diplomacy, you are really at 330 picks.

In addition, you should take cost reductions into consideration. An ability whose cost is reduced by 10 points, for example, basically means that race has 10 more points to spend, but some of them are “forced” to be spent in that category, or else some of them are wasted. For example, Humans get Representative government, the increase to Good diplomacy, the increase to Superior Diplomacy, and the increase to Normal Creativity all for 10 points less than the standard. Thus, this is 40 free points to spend, provided that those abilities are taken. Thus, the Humans in fact have 370 points to spend in total. However, to utilize all of them, they must take Representative government, Superior Diplomacy, and at least Normal Creativity.

In addition, there are abilities which certain races cannot get. If you really want to have that ability, you shouldn’t play that race. (Unless of course that race has other advantages that outweigh the cost of missing out on the pick you want) For example, the humans cannot take Superior Toughness. If you really wanted to have the maximum possible ground combat abilities, you wouldn’t play humans.

Some races also have an increased cost for certain abilities. For example, the Klackons must pay an additional 10 points for each level of Research ability they select. This should be thought of as a highly discouraged pick. If you pay for it, you are wasting some of your picks. So if you wanted to play Klackons but take research abilities, it might be good to consider playing the Tachidi instead, as you can customize them to be like the Klackons, only with the improved research ability, without paying extra.

Each race also has built in bonuses. Some of these are based on species type, and others differ even among races of one species (like Humans and Psilons). In addition, each race has different starting diplomatic “prejudices” towards each other race type. These can be either positive or negative. For example, Saurian Races and Icthytosian races have severe diplomatic penalties towards each other when they meet. Ithkul have immense diplomatic penalties with any other race. Many other race combinations have more moderate positives or negatives.

Each race type also has a preferred environment in terms or Temperature and Pressure (which determines their “Terraforming Circles”, the rings of White, Green, Yellow and Red which dictate how well they live on different planets). Also, races have a gravity preference.

If you are on a world which has a different gravity from what your race prefers, you suffer a penalty. If it is way off from your preferences, you suffer a severe penalty. There are 5 gravity levels, Negligible, Low, Moderate, High, and Extreme. Being 1 level away is a small penalty (I think its -25% efficiency), being 2 or more levels away is a large penalty (50% I think). The exception is that the Ethereans suffer only the lesser penalty for being 2 levels away, and must be 3 levels away to endure the greater penalty. This is because they like Extreme gravity worlds, and if they got the large penalty for moderate gravity worlds, then would have 1 gravity type that was a small penalty and 3 that were large for them, as opposed to 2 and 2 for the other races.

Since higher gravity worlds tend to be larger, and (I think), more frequently are rich in minerals, it is an advantage to like higher gravity worlds. This is one of the main advantages of the Ethereans, who like extreme gravity. The Harvesters also like High gravity, as do Geodics. However, the Insectoids and the Cybernetics like Low Gravity.

Here are the various “built in” racial abilities of each race, as well as their cheap picks, expensive picks, forbidden picks, free picks, and number of points to spend on race customization. For all purposes, the “number of points to spend” is the number of points you have by reducing all racial abilities to the lowest level available for that race. This includes giving poor minerals and similar biodiversity on the starting planet. The “adjusted number of points” is that number added to all the free picks and cost reductions that the race gets. This is a good number to use to compare different races against each other, as it accounts for how much you can actually buy. Of course, to make full use of this, you must purchase all cost reduced racial picks.

The standard costs for racial picks are:

Collectivist Government: 60
Representative Government: 30
Natural Engineers: 30
Fantastic Traders: 10
Tolerant: 20
Empathic:10
Antaran Background: 10
Choosing Orion Senate Yes or No instead of Random: 10
Each level of increase in your “Homeworld’s” Biodiversity or Mineral rating: 10
Each level of increase in Reflexes, Accuracy, or Toughness: 10
Each level of increase in all other abilities: 20



HUMANOIDS:
Gravity: Moderate, Pressure/Temperature: 61/38
All humanoids get an improvement to Research, Senate Effectiveness, and Casus Belli (it causes more unrest in others empires if they go to war with you). They also get a significant bonus to their relations with other empires.

HUMAN:
Total Points: 310
Free average diplomacy (worth 20)
Good and Superior Diplomacy costs reduced by 10 (worth 20)
Representative Government cost reduced by 10 (worth 10)
Normal Creativity cost reduced by 10 (worth 10)
Total Reductions: 60
Adjusted Total Points: 370

War Tolerance -1, Research Efficiency 105%, Senate Effectiveness 115%, Relations Bonus +25%, Casus Belli Bonus +6%, Ground Combat Initiative +30

Forbidden Picks: Superior Toughness, Poor Diplomacy, Antaran Background

EVON:
Total Points: 460
Economics: Investors cost reduced by 10 (10)
Representative Government cost reduced by 10 (10)
Total Reductions: 20
Adjusted Total Points: 480

War Tolerance -1, Research Efficiency 105%, Senate Effectiveness 115%, Relations Bonus +25%, Casus Belli Bonus +6%, Ground Combat Initiative +30

Forbidden Picks: Superior Diplomacy, Original Creativity

The Evon seem to have WAY more points than the humans (+110), and no difference in built in abilities. This makes me feel that there MUST be some additional bonus the humans get that is not being covered in the game’s Readme file, which lists the built in racial abilities. (Either that or I messed up, or the file is inaccurate.)

PSILON:
Total Points: 360
Representative Government cost reduced by 10 (10)
Adjusted Total Points: 370
War Tolerance -1, Research Efficiency 130%, Senate Effectiveness 115%, Relations Bonus +25%, Casus Belli Bonus +6%, Population Growth Penalty 10%, Ground Combat Initiative +30

Psilons have an additional 25% research boost over other Humanoids, but pay for it with a 10% Population Growth penalty. Versus the Evon, they are paying 110 points for +25% research and -10% Population Growth. Against the Humans, as listed, its just the Research for Population Growth.

CYBERNETICS:
Gravity: Low, Pressure/Temperature: 30/55
The “Uses ½ minerals ½ food to feed population” is a big one for the cybernetics. Much of the early strategy and development will focus around it. Both Cybernetics also get a massive increase in Manufacturing.


MEKLAR:
Total Points: 360
Free Average Manufacturing (20)
Natural Engineers cost reduced by 20 (20)
Tolerant Cost reduced by 10 (10)
Cost Reductions: 50
Adjusted Total Points: 410
Manufacturing Efficiency +40%, Ground combat Initiative +10, Ground Combat Accuracy +20, Uses Bioharvest Output 50% and Mining Output 50% to Feed Population

Forbidden Abilities: Poor Manufacturing, Superior Trade, Economics: Investors, Superior Diplomacy, Fantastic Traders, Empathic

CYNOID:
Total Points: 410
Free Average Manufacturing (20)
Natural Engineers cost reduced by 20 (20)
Tolerant Cost reduced by 10 (10)
Economics: Investors cost reduced by 10 (10)
Citizenship Association cost reduced by 10 (10)
Cost Reductions: 70
Adjusted Total Points: 480
Manufacturing Efficiency +40%, Ground combat Initiative +10, Ground Combat Accuracy +20, Uses Bioharvest Output 50% and Mining Output 50% to Feed Population

Forbidden Abilities: Poor Manufacturing, Empathic

The Cynoids and Meklar can be customized to be very similar to each other, though the Meklar are more limited in their choice of abilities. The Meklar also have a bunch less points total, and no clear ability to make up for it. So unless some added bonus to being meklar is found, I simply recommend playing as Cynoid, you get more points. This is similar to the difference between Humans and Evon. Using all of the Cynoid's pickss forces the purchase of Economics: Investors (top level) and Citizenship: Association (2nd lowest level)
Since Economics is a poor pick at present, with interest cut and HFOG easily reduced by flipping governments, so 10 points worth of the Cynoids reductions are worthless, however, they are still better than the Meklar, and are an excellent race.

SAURIANS:
Gravity: Moderate, Pressure/Temperature: 89/73
SAKKRA:
Total Points: 330
Bioharvesting picks costs reduced by 10 (30)
Cost Reductions: 30
Adjusted Total Picks: 360
Pollution Tolerance +25%, Population Growth Bonus +10%, Ground Combat Initiative +10, Ground Combat Attack Strength +20

Forbidden Picks: Superior Diplomacy, Empathic

The Saurians all have a population growth bonus, and an increase in pollution tolerance. These are both quite good abilities.

RAAS:
Total Points: 300
Free Average Bioharvesting (20)
Cost Reductions: 20
Adjusted Total Points: 320
Pollution Tolerance +25%, Population Growth Bonus +10%, Ground Combat Initiative +10, Ground Combat Attack Strength +20

Forbidden Abilities: Poor Bioharvesting.
Raas seem to have 40 less points than the Sakkra, and no other change. This also makes me feel as if there are more differences between the races which are not being listed in the Readme. It was talked about on the boards that Raas have larger “Terraforming Circles”. If this is true, it would account for the points difference.

GRENDARL:
Total Points: 270
Free Average Reflexes (10)
Free Average Toughness (10)
Good and Superior Mining costs reduced by 10 (20)
Citizenship Loyalty costs reduced by 10 (10)
Cost Reductions: 50
Adjusted Total Points: 320
Pollution Tolerance +25%, Population Growth Bonus +15%, Ground Combat Initiative +10, Ground Combat Attack Strength +20

Forbidden Picks: Economics Investors, Poor reflexes, Poor Toughness.

The Grendarl have a population growth bonus of 15% instead of the 10% of the other Saurians. They lose 40 picks for this, it would seem. (In comparison with the Sakkra)


ICTHYTOSIANS:
Gravity: Moderate, Pressure/Temperature: 96/37

The stock Icthytosian races are good at Research and bad at Combat, but you can of course customize just about anything….

TRILARIANS:
Total Points: 440
Ground Combat Initiative +20, Ground Combat Evade +30

Forbidden Picks: Superior Toughness.

NOMMO:
Total Points: 420
Citizenship picks costs are reduced by 10 (30)
Free Sharp Cunning (20)
Cost Reductions: 50
Adjusted Total Points: 470
Ground Combat Initiative +20, Ground Combat Evade +30

Forbidden Picks: Superior Toughness, Slow Cunning

It seems that the Nommo are slightly superior to the Trilarians in terms of points available, but only if you want to get Citizenship Liberty AND wanted Slow Cunning. Otherwise, the Trilarians are the better choice for customizing. However, it seems to me that Nommo have the edge. This makes me wonder if the Trilarians get some other bonus….


ETHEREANS:
Gravity: Extreme, Pressure/Temperature: 106/55

Seeing that Green 1 Terraforming Circle run off the top of the screen, and knowing that that means you have a lot less planets that will be colonizable for you easily, is painful. However, you must remember that the ones you do like will usually be REALLY BIG.
This preference for extreme gravity, extreme pressure worlds is the Ethereans most important ability.

IMSAEIS:
Total Points: 380
Free Average Bioharvesting (20)
Cunning picks costs reduced by 10 (30)
Cost Reductions: 50
Adjusted Total Points: 430
Ground Combat Initiative +20, Ground Combat Attacks +1

Forbidden Picks: Poor Bioharvesting, Superior Mining, Superior Toughness

EOLADI:
Total Points: 390
Free Average Bioharvesting (20)
Economics: Monetarists and Investors costs reduced by 10 (20)
Cost Reductions: 40
Adjusted Total Points: 430
Ground Combat Initiative +20, Ground Combat Attacks +1

Forbidden Picks: Poor Bioharvesting, Superior Mining, Superior Toughness

The two Etherean races are very similar in customization terms. Select the Imsaeis if you want to go with Cunning, and the Eoladi if you want Economics. Other than that they are the same, once you click on the “race customization” button. Of course, there is always the possibility of other hidden differences. Because of the weakness of the economics pick, I would recommend the Imsaeis.


GEODICS:
Gravity: High, Pressure/Temperature: 50/78

Geodics eat minerals, which will be heavily influential in how you choose to develop and expand early on, and where you focus your research. They start with 4 Mining DEAs and no Bioharvesting. They also have a significant penalty to population growth.

SILICOIDS:
Total Points: 310
Free Average Mining (20)
Free Natural Engineers (30)
Cost Reductions: 50
Adjusted Total Points: 360
Population Growth Penalty 25%, Mining Efficiency +40%, Ground Combat Armor +20, Ground Combat Hit Points +2, Uses Bioharvest Output 0% and Mining Output 100% to Feed Population

Cost Increases: Original Creativity costs 30 (10 more), Tolerant costs 30 (10 more)
Forbidden Picks: Superior Bioharvesting, Poor Mining, Superior Reflexes



INSECTOIDS:
Gravity: Low, Pressure/Temperature: 45/46

Insectoids have massive population growth bonuses, which will give them a big edge, and can help them win in the senate. However, their preference for lower gravity worlds means they will have less maximum population available on their planets.

KLACKON:
Total Points: 330
Free Citizenship Association (20)
Superior Bioharvesting cost reduced by 10 (10)
Good and Superior Environment costs reduced by 10 (20)
Collectivist Government cost reduced by 20 (20)
Cost Reductions: 70
Adjusted Total Points: 400
Population Growth Bonus 30%, Ground Combat Initiative +10

Cost Increases: All Research increases cost 30 (10 more), All Creativity increases cost 30 (10 more).
Forbidden Picks: Citizenship Liberty

While research bonuses aren’t forbidden to the Klackons, they might as well be. If you want to have decent research skills, play as Tachidi.


TACHIDI:
Total Points: 300
Free Citizenship Association (20)
Superior Mining cost reduced by 10 (10)
Collectivist Government cost reduced by 20 (20)
Cost Reductions: 50
Adjusted Total Points: 350
Population Growth Bonus 35%, Ground Combat Initiative +10

While the Tachidi have less points than the Klackons, they get a higher Population Growth rate in return for it, and also the ability to pick research abilities without paying exorbitant prices.


HARVESTERS:
Gravity: High, Pressure/Temperature: 47/27

ITHKUL:
Total Points: 460
Free Tolerant ability (20)
Free Antaran Background ability (10)
Collectivist Government cost reduced by 20 (20)
“Free” Orion Senate: No
Cost Reductions: 50 + Automatic Senate: No
Total Points: 510 + Automatic Senate: No
Oppressometer Tolerance +1, War Tolerance +1 (More likely to have war declared), Senate Effectiveness 60%, Ground combat Initiative +10, ground Combat Rally Chance +2, Ground Combat Rout Chance +2 (Less Routs)

Cost Increases: Economics: Monetarists and Economics: Investors are each 30 (10 extra)
Forbidden Picks: Superior Diplomacy, Representative Government, Senate: Random, Senate: Yes

The Harvesters will always be despised by all others in the Galaxy, even other Harvesters. Thus, they gain a bunch of extra picks, but must fight a never ending war.


A couple Sample Custom Races, and thoughts on the strengths of the different racial abilities:

First of all, the Economics pick is extremely weak. This is due to interest rates being cut, and the fact that the Heavy Foot of Government is quite simple to reduce. Merely switch governments and you cut your HFOG in half. (Average the previous value with 1, thus halving the "extra amount").
Switching back will cut it in half again. The penalty for switching governments is a mere 10 points in unrest on the first turn, which reduces to 8, then 6, 4, 2, and after 5 turns its gone. This kindof averages out to having one less level of Citizenship for 5 turns.

Thus both advantages of economics are effectively gone, and it is a nearly worthless pick.

Secondly, Environment is also quite weak, as the cost reduction for terraforming is a very minor bonus, and Tolerant is a much better way of reducing pollution, for cheap. Poor Environment and Tolerant has about as much pollution as Superior Envirnoment, but at a cost of 40 less points.

Furthermore, I consider Creativity to be an excellent pick, as each level of Creativity increases your chance that each tech is in your tree by 7.5%. At Creativity: Imitative, you have a 66% chance per tech of getting that tech, but at Original, your chance rises to 88.5% Note that this may vary by race, but that the bonus for Creativity remains.

If you want to have your spies live longer, you definitely want to choose Cunning: Dangerous. The +10 luck bonus is priceless in allowing your spies to wreak havoc and steal technologies. It also increases the life of your defensive spies (since it makes them last longer before they retire). I feel that the top level of Cunning is far better than the second best, and that you should either go all the way and get Cunning: Dangerous, or else you should save the points and go with Cunning at the lowest level. The +10 luck from Cunning Dangerous is huge.

I consider Superior Manufacturing to be an awesome pick, and I highly recommend it. Good or Superior Mining is also highly advisable. I also recommend getting a decent Bioharvesting skill, except for Silicoids nad Cybernetics.

Rich starting planet is a great ability, and one I consider essential for those who eat minerals (Cyernetics and Silicoids). Also, starting planet Biodiversity will NOT effect food produced on your home, as that is based on the fertility of the regions with farming DEAs. Your homeworld regions' fertility will not change if you modify the Biodiversity. However, lowering Biodiversity will reduce population growth on that world a little, reduce the value of selling rare food goods, and increase pollution a bit. Still, I find it a good source of 10 race pick, for many races.

Finally, see the guides on government types in order to choose one of those. Representative (Parlimentary) is best if your goal is to maximize production, though Collectivist has better overall stats, a higher oppressometer tolerance, and a big bonus to unrest reduction in military DEAs. Despotism and Monarchy are also great for Production, but Bioharvesting suffers a lot.

Here is a race that I find to be quite good.

Cynoids or Meklar: Super production race.

You get a 40% production bonus for being cybernetic, and this can lead to very fast expansion. I can get a colony ship produced every 3 turns with this race, starting on turn 5. I will list the number of points it takes to improve the stat from poor. Cynoids have 350 points plus 70 points worth of cost reductions, of which we only will use 60 (as the 10 from Economics are a waste, since Economics is worthless). Meklar have 360 points +50 in reductions. Thus we have 410 points to spend, starting with all stats at poor.

Bioharvesting Poor
Mining Superior (60)
Manufacturing Superior (60) (40 plus free average manufacturing)
Research Superior (60)
Trade Poor
Diplomacy Poor
Economics Barter
Environment Poor
Accuracy: Good (20)
Reflexes: Poor
Toughness: Poor
Citizenship Duty (40) (10 + 10 cost reduction for Cynoid)
Cunning: Dangerous (60)
Creativity: Original (60)

Rich starting planet (20)
Similar Biodiversity starting planet

Natural Engineers (30) (10 plus 20 from cost reduction)
Tolerant (20) (10 plus 10 from cost reduction)
Government Type: Representative (Parliment) (30)
Orion Senate: Yes (10)

I personally like Orion Senate: Yes, as it allows the senate win, and also allows blocking other's senate wins. Being out of the senate is more challenging. For multiplayer, I definitely recommend the senate. You can reduce ground combat skills to increase citizenship, or make other small changes to the race, based on your preferences. (Reduce citizenship to put Biodiveristy to Diverse instead of Similar, or whatever).

This race can expand rapidly, and then build up a large fleet quite early, with which to eliminate any competitors (in multiplayer). it is quite powerful.


Another race I find to be quite good is a Tachidi race designed for fast expansion. Your goal here is to colonize like crazy, then hold your worlds or expand through combat, and win via the senate, due to your huge population growth bonus. You can emphasize basically the same race picks as before, and choose whichever of Representative or Collectivist you prefer for the bugs. ;)


The purpose of this was to present all of the race customization data for Moo3 in a clear, easy to comprehend format, for purposes of comparing different races in order to choose who to use for your customization.

Moo3 race customization is more confusing and more difficult to calculate than it was in Moo2, because it’s not all up on a chart where you check pluses and minuses. When choosing which race you want, I would recommend looking primarily at what special “built in” abilities you want, such as a Research bonus, a population growth bonus, etc, and also factor into consideration which races get discounts on what abilities. If there are certain abilities you do not value very highly, and don’t want to play with, then I recommend not playing with a race that gets a discount to those abilities, as then you will be wasting points.


In conclusion, I hope this was helpful and informative, and will be an aid to creating custom races. Designing good custom races takes a lot of skill and experience. You must experiment with different abilities and combinations to see what works best. In time, we will be able to figure out the strongest customizations.

Thanks for reading!

Edit: Added a bunch of stuff, made corrections to opporessometer tolerance. (Its based on government, not race)

Also, for info on the effect of creativity on the %age of techs a race gets, and to see the effect of the "Techs" value in the RaceModifiers.txt file, go here:

http://www.ina-community.com/forums...threadid=274247

[Drachen]

Alexfrog, thank you! :up:

A great explanation that is detailed and well organized!

Lets give this a sticky!

[Antra]

No listing of the Psilons' forbidden picks? :)

Edit: Is it possible to open up the data file and get the customization data directly?

[NocturnalC]

Originally posted by Alexfrog
ITHKUL:
Total Points: 460
Free Tolerant ability (20)
Free Antaran Background ability (10)
Collectivist Government cost reduced by 20 (20)
“Free” Orion Senate: No
Cost Reductions: 50 + Automatic Senate: No
Total Points: 510 + Automatic Senate: No
Max Oppressometer 6, War Tolerance +1 (More likely to have war declared), Senate Effectiveness 60%, Ground combat Initiative +10, ground Combat Rally Chance +2, Ground Combat Rout Chance +2 (Less Routs)

Cost Increases: Economics: Monetarists and Economics: Investors are each 30 (10 extra)
Forbidden Picks: Superior Diplomacy, Representative Government, Senate: Random, Senate: No This should be "Senate: Yes." I'm sure there are other errors but this one caught my eye.

A nice read. :up: I guess I'll have to play Evon instead of Psilon. :(

"Intelligence is only useful to the intelligent!"

[Oun]

Very nice! Thanks Alex.

[Alexfrog]

Originally posted by NocturnalC
This should be "Senate: Yes." I'm sure there are other errors but this one caught my eye.

A nice read. :up: I guess I'll have to play Evon instead of Psilon. :(


ok, fixed the error. Psilons have a large bonus to science.....130% of normal vs 105% for other humanoids. They seem to have some stuff going for them. Evon do have a lot more picks though...

[Octavius III]

Dang alex, I just keep saving more and more of your stuff... I'll have a pile of printouts tomorrow afternoon to help me through the learning cliff!

[Alexfrog]

Yeah, I am glad you liked it. I spent 2 hours doing that instead of playing moo3.....

But I wanted to, its was valuable info I wanted to have myself ;) So I could compare different races for customizing.

[Tom_Withuhn]

wow, great job again ALex. my desktop is becoming littered with your saved posts.

You know its funny - your review and your race giude or are clear and understandable - why was this so hard for QS and IG? it seems to me that it would be common sense to have an appendix that lists everything out in the open. Thanks for filling in where QS fell short.

Tom

[kalbear]

Apparently terraforming circles factor in quite a bit.

The Evon/Human thing has been brought up elsewhere, and doesn't seem to work either. I'm just as confused. Admittedly, the forbidden evon abilities hurt more than the human ones, but does that really matter? You could make, overall, a killer evon vs. a human.

Also confused about the massive restrictions between cynoid and meklar. Not too different there. Maybe different terraforming circles?

Raas have been mentioned as one of the fav races, so I'm thinking that t-circle factors pretty big in there. Grendahl's pop increase looks pretty nice - considering there's no housing cheese and very little that I've seen that increases pop growth throughout your empire, pop bonuses could be quite nice.

Trilarians don't seem all that bad. Actually, both fish races seem pretty sweet overall. Lots of points and a huge oppresometer rating. Only prob is that them taking over worlds pisses the local pop off. Trilarians especially are great - high oppression + loyalty is damn sweet.

Interesting that the silicoids cost more for tolerant, given that was one of their 'classic' abilities. Still, man oh man - natural engineers + 40% mining efficiency...hubba hubba.

Even with the more expensive picks, as long as you pick the 'free' abilities of the klackon you can get the best research/cunning and still be ahead of the tachidi. I suppose that's what that 35% bonus is for in pop growth.

Ithkul are quite the beasts, but we knew that for some time.

Thanks tons for doing this, AF. I hope it's still accurate given your build, but I can't imagine that they'd adjust anything this minute.

[Aquiantus]

I like your guide but it is missing a few details.

For instance some races love to live on small planets and some like to live on gas giants. If cynoids love moon worlds then that should be a factor in choosing. I believe that the lower the gravity is the better chance of having a smaller world (ie moon) that your race is suited too. Having a heavy gravity race like Gasbags or Lizards would most likely yield larger worlds. My hypothesis is based on Moo2 and Astronomy. Usually a larger world like Jupiter would yield a heavy gravity unlike the moon which is small therefor a smaller gravity.

Of course smaller worlds may be mineral rich while medium worlds would be suitable for humanoids and most likely yield rich bioharvesting. Large worlds might be a mix of those.

Another factor you might consider is their relation to other races. For instance the Lizard species hate the Fish and vice versa.

I would have to agree with the post about Terraforming circles. I assume that the larger the worlds your species is used to the larger its terraforming circles might be. This could be a big factor.

Anyway it will be interesting to see how all the factors play out later on down the road.

Note: I've heard from other sources that the larger the terraforming circle the less likely you are to colonize other suitable locations. Which means Cynoids would have the most suitable planets to colonize, however they would be small.

[Adacore]

Well, I was gonna play Evon for my first game, and I guess this confirms my choice - if I find any hidden disadvantages, i'll let you know, but I probably won't notice them, it being my first game and all. ~2 days 'till I get the game...

[laxrulz777]

aquiantus, he's got the gravity preferences up there... you may have just missed it in all the other info (or alex is an editing machine ;)

i'm also curious about the Evon vs. Human thing... everything else seems to be balanced pretty well except humans being WAYY below the two humanoids... I wonder if any of the BTs have some input on this

[Alexfrog]

Yeah I had gravity preferences up there from the start, and discussed the benefits of liking high gravity worlds (bigger size)

I am mystified about the humans. They must get some other ability, or some of the readme data for them is wrong or something...

[laxrulz777]

Well... this is from L_W's strat series...

"Do not take this to mean that the Humans and Evon are identical, they are not, there are slight differences in terraforming circles as well as other presently unmentioned bonuses. "

so i would guess the humans have a slightly bigger terraforming ring (although I hadn't noticed this on any screen shots... it must be pretty subtle) and possibly some other random thing

[Alexfrog]

yeah, I want to know the unmntioned bonuses, dangit! they arent in either the readme or readily apparent when creating a game.

[laxrulz777]

you could check the "spreadsheets"

[Alexfrog]

yeah, I'll have to start digging through the game files.....

[Cephalopod]

Seems that the Nommo, Evon, and Trillarian have the 3 best adjusted scores for a non-Harvester race.

On the other hand, the Harvesters do pay for their points, that -150 Casus Beli and the other specials we can't discuss until March 5 really hurt them.

[Alexfrog]

well, nommo and trilarian are also lacking in the realm of special abilities....mainly they just get a bonus to evade in combat and the oppressometer. Which is less than the bonus of many others, such as the pop growth bonuses, production bonuses, eating minerals, etc....

So it makes sense they get more points.
Also, they have 3 warlike lizard races that despise them. Thats a big minus!

[Aquiantus]

Sorry my bad about the gravity you did mention it.

One thing I thought up is that the more planets you have the more bogged down you will be. You would have to go from planet to planet to adjust their DEAs.

If you take an Eoladi with a size 12 gas giant vs a Cynoid with 3 size 4 pop planets, the Eoladi will clearly be in the advantage in a multi player game. He would spend alittle less time getting to the different DEA's then his opponent aswell as saving 2 Colony ships in the process for equal pop. Reason i mention this is because i seen some Multi game post by a few BTs about only having 3 minutes per turn and i figure that every second counts :D

[Alexfrog]

no, the more planets you have the more planets the AI will manage for you

This game is NOT AT ALL about microing, its about Macromanagement....

go see my thread in the general discussion for more details. (Apoc stickied it)

[PyroBlade]

Here's my revised race points table

Its based on everything set to Average, and Government:Absolutist, Since this is the default level of customization most players set to before starting to take picks. This does not take into account hidden abilities

It lists which race picks are more favourable to take.
Here's the format

Assignable Points: Points available after setting everything to average and choosing Government:Absolutist
Altered Specials: Which specials are cheaper or costlier
Favourable Positve: Cost less to Pick
Unfavourable Positive: Cost more to Pick
Favourable Negative: Returns more points when Picked
Unfavourable Negative: Returns less points when Picked

Standard Costs:
Planetary Abilities (From Poor to Superior): -20, 0, 20, 40
Ground Combat Abilities: -10, 0, 10, 20
Governments(Absolutist, Representative, Collectivist): 0, 30, 60


Human
Assignable Points: 70
Altered Specials: None
Favourable Positive Picks: Diplomacy(Good[10],Superior[20]), Government(Representative[20])
Unfavourable Positive Picks: None
Favourable Negative Picks: None
Unfavourable Negative Picks: Diplomacy(Poor[-10]), Creativity(Imitative[-10])

Evon
Assignable Points: 140
Altered Specials: None
Favourable Positive Picks: Economics(Investors[30]), Government(Representative[20])
Unfavourable Positive Picks: None
Favourable Negative Picks: None
Unfavourable Negative Picks: Research(Poor[-10])

Psilons
Assignable Points: 120
Altered Specials: None
Favourable Positive Picks: Government(Representative[20])
Unfavourable Positive Picks: None
Favourable Negative Picks: None
Unfavourable Negative Picks: Citizenship(Liberty[-10])

Meklar
Assignable Points: 110
Altered Specials: Natural Enginners[10](20 pts discount), Tolerant[10](10 pts discount)
Favourable Positive Picks: None
Unfavourable Positive Picks: None
Favourable Negative Picks: None
Unfavourable Negative Picks: None

Cynoid
Assignable Points: 160
Assigned Points to Specials: Natural Enginners[10](20 pts discount), Tolerant[10](10 pts discount)
Favourable Positive Picks: Bioharvest(Good[10]), Diplomacy(Good[10],Superior[20])
Unfavourable Positive Picks: None
Favourable Negative Picks: Bioharvest(Poor[-30])
Unfavourable Negative Picks: Creativity(Imitative[-10])

Note: The Cynoids having Bioharvest:Average is unfavourable at all in terms of points, so either choose good or poor.

Sakkra
Assignable Points: 70
Altered Specials: None
Favourable Positive Picks: Bioharvest(Good[10],Superrior[20])
Unfavourable Positive Picks: None
Favourable Negative Picks: None
Unfavourable Negative Picks: None

Raas
Assignable Points: 90
Altered Specials: None
Favourable Positive Picks: None
Unfavourable Positive Picks: None
Favourable Negative Picks: None
Unfavourable Negative Picks: None

Grendarl
Assignable Points: 20
Altered Specials: None
Favourable Positive Picks: Mining(Good[10],Superior[20]), Citizenship(Loyalty[30])
Unfavourable Positive Picks: None
Favourable Negative Picks: None
Unfavourable Negative Picks: None

Trilarian
Assignable Points: 170
Altered Specials: None
Favourable Positive Picks: None
Unfavourable Positive Picks: None
Favourable Negative Picks: None
Unfavourable Negative Picks: None

Nommo
Assignable Points: 180
Altered Specials: None
Favourable Positive Picks: Citizenship(Duty[10],Loyalty[20])
Unfavourable Positive Picks: None
Favourable Negative Picks: None
Unfavourable Negative Picks: Citizenship(Liberty[-10])

Imsaeis
Assignable Points: 140
Altered Specials: None
Favourable Positive Picks: Cunning(Quick[10],Deadly[20])
Unfavourable Positive Picks: None
Favourable Negative Picks: None
Unfavourable Negative Picks: Cunning(Slow[-10])

Eoladi
Assignable Points: 140
Altered Specials: None
Favourable Positive Picks: Economics(Monetarists[10],Investors[20])
Unfavourable Positive Picks: None
Favourable Negative Picks: None
Unfavourable Negative Picks: None

Silicoid
Assignable Points: 60
Altered Specials: Natural Enginners[FREE](30 pts discount), Tolerant[30](10 pts more)
Favourable Positive Picks: None
Unfavourable Positive Picks: Creativity(Original[50])
Favourable Negative Picks: None
Unfavourable Negative Picks: None

Klackon
Assignable Points: 60
Altered Specials: None
Favourable Positive Picks: Bioharvest(Superior[30]), Environmental(Good[10],Superior[20]), Government(Representative[20],Collectivist[40])
Unfavourable Positive Picks: Research(Good[30],Superior[60]), Creativity(Adaptive[30],Original[60])
Favourable Negative Picks: Research(Poor[-30]), Creativity(Imitative[-30])
Unfavourable Negative Picks: None

Tachidi
Assignable Points: 50
Altered Specials: None
Favourable Positive Picks: Manufacturing(Superior[30]), Government(Representative[20],Collectivist[40])
Unfavourable Positive Picks: None
Favourable Negative Picks: None
Unfavourable Negative Picks: None

Ithkul
Assignable Points: 190
Altered Specials: Tolerant[FREE](20 pts discount), Antaran_Background[FREE](10 pts discount)
Forced Picks: Member_of_Orion_Senate([NO])
Favourable Positive Picks: Government(Collectivist[40])
Unfavourable Positive Picks: Economics(Monetarists[30],Investors[60])
Favourable Negative Picks: None
Unfavourable Negative Picks: None

[Alexfrog]

Another way to look at it, if you want to think of everything starting at average. Good work!

[Aquiantus]

Originally posted by Alexfrog
no, the more planets you have the more planets the AI will manage for you

This game is NOT AT ALL about microing, its about Macromanagement....

go see my thread in the general discussion for more details. (Apoc stickied it)

I respect your position that you need to auto-pilot because you can't handle Moo3 micro but i really don't care about your position on planet micro. One needs to micro a majority of its military and that is what i was getting at. One needs to fill out the quees in their colonies with the ships they wanted. You will micro your fleet and most likely the quees in which they are built. I'm just looking at the time IRL someone would have to take to get 3 ships built on 1 planet vs someone who has to spread it around to 3 other planets. Clearly the heavy gravity races have a RL time increase especially in a multi-player game where every second counts. Its because they don't have to go to several planets to fill the quee out if they so choose.

Also there is no need to yell or take your frustration out on someone else because that is juvenile.

[Adacore]

Originally posted by Aquiantus
I respect your position that you need to auto-pilot because you can't handle Moo3 micro...

Whoa - I think this was just a small misunderstanding, and if you think Alexfrog can't micro in a game that requires it, you're completely wrong - have you ever seen his posts in the MoO1/2 discussion forum? The point he was making is that this game doesn't require that much micro (except possibly, as you pointed out, in military build queues), and thus having more or less planets than another empire shouldn't be a major advantage or disadvantage, as the amount of work you'll have to do is about the same.

[Fraghawk]

Also there is no need to yell or take your frustration out on someone else because that is juvenile.

With all due respect, Aquiantus, I think you misunderstood Alex there. The "NOT AT ALL" was IMHO merely to stress his emphasis, not to suggest "yelling" at you.

Your point is correct, but I think it does not apply to Alexfrog here, as he appeared neither frustrated nor angry to me.

No worries, mate.

:cool:

[Galfridus]

Did anyone ever figure out what the balance issue was between Humans and Evons?

[Quarthinos]

As I'm not a BT, I can only speculate, but as I just got done reading the backstory, I can guess that the Humans are possibly helped when the Varakesh arrive, but the Evon are going to be in a world of hurt.

Also, the Humans were specifically mentioned in the backstory as giving the very first speech in the new Orion Senate... Possibly they get a diplomatic bonus that is hidden somewhere? The race relations table that pedxing put up only covers the races not each species.

[Alexfrog]

Originally posted by Aquiantus

Also there is no need to yell or take your frustration out on someone else because that is juvenile.

I just usd capitals to stress that point, not to yel.. Maybe I shouldve used bold instead? sorry about the confusion.


Re Humans and Evon: I am going to go check in the spreadsheets tonight if I can. But I dont know. I havent seen any Varakesh coming into the galaxy ;) I dont think that happens.......maybe in an expansion ;)

[Xentropy]

Ack, I can't believe this fell to the second page.

MODS, STICKY THIS THREAD!!

[Galfridus]

Any luck finding out Human/Evon info?

[Lokilence]

good work

:up:

bump

[Xentropy]

I still say this post *needs* a sticky. This is as good as the beginners strat threads. Mods?!

[ShallowNotion]

Bought the game three days ago, a couple of interesting nights later, I now have time to do some serious research ... so I can really start to enjoy a good effort of the devs!

To the problem of race points differing big time between Humans and Evons:
One of the "hidden" boni for humans could be an old race pick from MoO2: "famous". I've played with Humans and got about 15 offers of leaders (and not rescued ones) and I played with Evons and the only leaders I got were rescued ones. Maybe it was just luck, but I think, the humans tend to attract leaders while evons repulse them...

This fame might be an unmentioned bonus and not a bad one, considering, that the leaders boost certain areas, so depending on the leader you can switch tactics. I'm not sure, if you find a bonus like that in the "spreadsheets", though...

[archpsi]

this needs to be sticky asap.

[Alexfrog]

sticky? so we dont have to do searches to find it?

[Telastyn]

Yeah, a listing of the uncustomizable race stats would be fabuously great.

oh, and *bump*

[Alexfrog]

Further investigating has revealed that oppressometer isnt based on race, but its entirely based on government. Except that Ithkul get a +1.

Lore Weaver's strat guide and the Readme file are wrong...

which leads me to believe that at one point in the beta phase, it was probably based on race....

[Telastyn]

Someone made the case that the racial tolerances to the oppressometer do seem to exist. (given that his race went into much unrest, and his magnate did not even though the oppressometer was still 'medium')

The actual displayed 'low' and 'high' are government based, and the racial tolerances are... undocumented.

[kalbear]

Well, in that case, we have a lying screen.

Screw you, lying screen!

[dadacp]

Other threads have talked about the balance issue between Humans and Evons. It was suggested that Humans grow faster and get more techs than Evons. I haven't tested this to be certain, though.

[Alexfrog]

in the files, the humans do not grow faster, and I dont think they get more techs, but they MIGHT

[Archangel_Brian]

YOINK!!!


*Runs off*



This is what I post in threads where I am taking something to use in my Encyclopedia Mod, and it is to give a heads up to the thread's creator that I'm gonna be using their info. IT IS NOT SPAM.

[Gudea]

I think that some of the "unspoken" differences within species are in the number of planets with "green" gravity. When I play the Raas I almost always find a green gravity planet in the system. IMHO, this is THE major factor for colonizing. Weather/conditions can be terraformed away. Gravity stays (though negatives can be lessened with tech). When I play Cybernetic I find poo. Sure I can outproduce Toyota, but all of my planets have yellow or red gravity; hence, they produce at least 25% less or at most 75% less. Yikes! Humans and Raas have given me the most and best colonizing possibilities. Ergo, I vote for the idea that those unspoken numbers are to balance races which can better colonized most of the worlds in the galaxy. This seems to be a HUGE advantage.

One mister Lincoln. Two mister Lincoln. My two cents.:eek:

[dadacp]

I also find that humanoids have a lot of good planets to colonize. I tried klackons and found that they have very few good planets. What the use of fast population growth when there's not many green, proper-gravity planets?

All humanoids have the same planetary preferences. And humans and evons have the same growth rate. That leaves only percentage of techs available as a hidden difference, as far as I know. And I believe that that is a major difference between humans and evons. Its too bad that humans are almost forced to spend pick points on diplomacy when the diplomacy is so confusing and/or useless.

[noone1]

I think the Evon have a really small teraform circle. I played about 100 turns with the Evon yesterday. Found 3 "green" planets in my home system and NONE in the next 7-10 i explored. This amy have been just really bad luck but it may have not been.

[tleng]

I think all the humanoids have the same terraforming circle. I played an Evon game and had no trouble finding planets.

Raas though are supposed to have a bigger terraforming circle, but it's hard to tell.. I tried comparing it to the Sakkra but couldn't see a difference in the terraform picture.

As Cynoid I've also had games where I had a lot of green planets. Granted they were size 4 or size 5, but they were still there.

My question is that is it better to have a smaller world with less DEAs but more popluation (Klacon) or a larger world with more DEAs but smaller pop (Nommo).

Finally, people say having a surplus of food increases growth. I don't know about that but I did find out that my Cynoids grow faster than EVERYONE (including the saurians but not the insectoids) in the first few turns. Is this because I have BOTH a mineral and food surplus?

[Castellon]

Originally posted by Cephalopod
Seems that the Nommo, Evon, and Trillarian have the 3 best adjusted scores for a non-Harvester race.

On the other hand, the Harvesters do pay for their points, that -150 Casus Beli and the other specials we can't discuss until March 5 really hurt them.

Okay it is past March 5th can anyone tell me what this is?

[dadacp]

Many posters have pointed out the value of a multi-racial empire. Different races have different planetary preferences, so it's helpful to have more races so that there is more chance that a planet will be green to some race in the empire. It's difficult for harvesters to build a multi-racial empire when their people eat the other races. That's one negative to harvesters, at least.

[Alexfrog]

Originally posted by tleng
I
Finally, people say having a surplus of food increases growth. I don't know about that but I did find out that my Cynoids grow faster than EVERYONE (including the saurians but not the insectoids) in the first few turns. Is this because I have BOTH a mineral and food surplus?

I think so.....

The fact that they eat only 1/2 food means that they have an even bigger food surplus than everyone else. (well, as big as those with great bioharvesting skills at least, as cynoids are poor). I think its important to build a mining DEA first, then a manuf DEA. this makes sure that the mining outpaces the manufacturing, and your pop keeps growing fast.

I have found that the Cybernetics and the Insectoids (especially Tachidi) are both super-strong, and I believe them to be the strongest races. This is becasue they have the best non-customizable bonuses. Cybernetics get the 1/2 food 1/2 minerals, and a +40% industry bonus, Tachidi get +35% pop bonus. In an MP game between the two, with both in the Senate, the Tachidi are going for a colonization/population win (senate win), while the Cybernetic race would try to expand fast and then build up a military force to weaken the Tachidi player, to prevent the senate win, and hopefully gain the win themself either by elimination of the Tachidi opponent, or senate win.

[Telastyn]

is that food quote true? (as if we could ever actually know... *sigh*)

Is it local surplus or empire surplus?


yikes. Learn more every day, and the inadiquacy of the manual grows as well...

[kalbear]

According to race modifiers, yes, the food quote is true. And it's empire surplus.

[Telastyn]

yikes. makes that bio-poor choice maybe not look so easy anymore...

[dadacp]

Are the bonuses to bioharvesting, mining, manufacturing, research etc. applied according to the controlling empire or according to the dominant race on the planet?

E.g.. if a psilon empire controls a planet with meklar population, which DEAs get the built-in racial bonus, manufacturing or research?

[Alexfrog]

I have mode some updates and additions to the guide...

including adding my preferred cybernetic expansion race.

I changed it to show that oppressometer tolerance is not based on race.

[karmina]

Pollution boni are NOT based on BioDiv, but on EcoSystemDensity which is a regional stat (take a look at DEATables.txt). The brown/green leaf does NOT represent BioDiv, but EcoSD.

EcoDS is randomly chosen for each region between -2 and 2, and tends to be higher with high BioDiv (which is a planetary stat).

Fertility = HabitabilityRing + EcoDS.
(Minimum is 1=Toxic, Maximum is 9=Lush, available only on VeryDense regions on a Paradise world. New Orions have two lush regions.)

So as for the Race picks, everything but low BioDiv is senseless, since most regions are fixed in HomeWorldDefaults.txt, and apparently only one region is affected by the BioDiv setting. Furthermore (this is a guess), the BioDiv boni for RareHarvestValues are only applied to your AU income if there are planetary specials on your homeworld.

[Dreadwight]

While looking for differences in the spreadsheet file I found a table labeled Racemod. The last column appears to give the base chance for techs availability in each race's tech tree.

Race: Techs:
HUMAN 58.5
EVON 51
PSILON 43.5
MEKLAR 43.5
CYNOID 51
SAKKRA 58.5
RAAS 58.5
GREND 66
TRILAR 51
NOMMO 43.5
IMSAEIS 51
EOLADI 43.5
SILICOID 51
KLACKON 66
TACHDI 58.5
ITHKUL 73.5

So it would seem that humans have a small (+7.5%) edge over Evons in tech availability. This is compounded by the creativity restriction of Evons (max Humans 73.5, Evons 58.5). I was surprised to see the brainiac Psilons rated at a paultry 43.5% chance.

You may want to add these numbers to the race specs since they will definitely factor into my race selections. One more reason to pick Grendarl if you ask me.

[camp freddie]

People have done tests on that race techs % and found that it has no effect in the game.

Only creativity affects the No. of techs you get, not race.

Full details of the testing are in a thread somewhere on Apolyton, sorry I don't have a direct link.

[Alexfrog]

full details were in a thread I wrote up on here, which got buried.....

Its here...

http://www.ina-community.com/forums/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&threadid=274247

[Dreadwight]

Read the thread, but it left me wondering if anyone has tried intermediate tech% in the racemod table. You said that you tried 0, default and 100, but not any intermediate values. Granted, it doesn't look promising with the data you provided, but I'm still curious (not curious enough to do it myself though).

[Alexfrog]

Yeah I also wondered that, and noted in in the article. And likewise, I didnt want to do it, ahving just spend hours on the tests...

[camp freddie]

I think that was done on 'poly with 20, 50 and 80.

[Merovech]

Just a little question, in mathematical term, what's the difference between "Poor, Average, Good ..." ???

[ShallowNotion]

Being a little Psilon myself, I naturally crank up me race, so that it maxes out regarding Research.

I have played a couple of games on easy and medium and with different "base" races and every single game all races that I have established contact with has approximately the same tech level in all 6 science fields even around turn 200!

In most games I have around 70% of all population in the whole galaxy and somewhere around 15k test tubes, and still the measly neighbours with only 10 or so planets can keep up!

Is the enemy AI cheating big time? I've seen, that in higher difficulty settings, the enemies have research and spy boni, but this is extremely embarasing.

Maybe the enemy AI is specializing smarter, since I tend to spread my research evenly to all fields.

In another thread I read that the "Originality" skill raises the percentage of available tech in the tech tree which is a sweet thing. So maybe my races pick don't give me a too big advantage how fast I am researching but deliver a bigger amount of more diverse tech for the same tech level than other races...

I have yet to try, if a race with poor research settings as player race can keep up with the computer AI regarding research. Anybody any experience with that???

[HastyLemming]

Sounds like something's missing from your custom race. Remember to make research points you need money. Farming, Mining, and Industry all make income. If you're setting these to poor you're really shooting yourself in the foot, especially Industry. Make sure Research is high on your DEV plans. I personally use cynoids for research. Their factories and mines make huge amounts of AU, with a rich planet they make twice the GDP of nearly all other races from the start. Test it out sometime. They also have a higher tolerance for tax then humanoids. Psilon's built in 25% bonus to research just can't keep up, but if you really like them try lowering diplomacy and adding superior production. Bring mining to average, take tolerant; lower spies and ecomomy (doesn't do anything anyway). Only good thing about them is their gravity preferance.

[Hachiman Taro]

I thought Cynoids were the most powerful race too...

You can customise them to give them the best mining (superior), manufacturing (superior + natural engineers + tolerant) research (superior + original creativity), and government series (collective, which gives big bonuses research, manufacturing and mining). Plus give them a rich mineral home world.

You have to sacrifice virtually everything else to the lowest levels(except citizenship), but this should make a very strong race.

You can out mine, out produce and out research everyone. And since you eat half minerals, your strong mining and weak bio skills are a bonus not a detriment. You just need to find a Magnate (slave) race to do your ground fighting for you, which isn't that hard.

The one problem is - Cybernetics (as has been pointed out) like low gravity worlds. Otherwise you take big hits on your DEA efficiencies. Low gravity worlds are small. They are also less common (I think) than moderate gravity worlds.

This sucks. Although you have super efficient industry and mining DEA's, you will also have less of them. That's a big equaliser.

This is why I'm experimenting with trying to make a similiar race with Humanoids (Psilon) and Saurians (Raas). They have slightly less awesome stats, but much better colonisation options to take advantage of them.

One thing I would like to know is whether Magnate races you 'aquire' are affected by your race picks. They shouldn't be, but I haven't seen anything that shows them having a full set of stats of their own. Lore Weavers races post gives them some characteristics, but not full stats. This makes me wonder whether at least some of your picks are effective empire wide...

[Merovech]

What's the % of efficiency of "poor, average, good, superior" ? I want to know to judge how good governement type are... If average is 100% and good 120% i won't spend 60 pts for a collectivist governement.

[dadacp]

One thing I would like to know is whether Magnate races you 'aquire' are affected by your race picks. They shouldn't be, but I haven't seen anything that shows them having a full set of stats of their own. Lore Weavers races post gives them some characteristics, but not full stats. This makes me wonder whether at least some of your picks are effective empire wide...

That's a big question in my mind as well. I want to have a multi-racial empire, so any race picks that are limited to just my own race are therefore somewhat less useful to me. I haven't been able to figure that out yet, though.

[Hachiman Taro]

the one pick that SHOULD affect other races you 'aquire' is your government, perhaps making this pick more effective than it would first appear....

[Edgewise]

Hi guys... I Don't post here often, but some of you may remember me from the Delphi Forums, or from my rare posts here. I've found after playing many multi-player games taking just about all of the races, that Evon seem to have the over-all best combination of attributes. I'm just about always in 1st place among human players, second to the New Orions for about the first 60 or so turns in terms of VP total on the victory screen. Harvesters are not as easy as they look. For one thing, just about every planet is red. Greens and Yellows are extremely rare to them, and often are low grav, where Harvesters prefer high.

With this in mind however, I still find them to be very powerful if you take the proper combination of picks. Humans I found to be very difficult to do as well with using a varierty of strategies. Going for diplomatic win in the senate with them is most likely the best, but extremely difficult in MP games where diplomatic picks have no benefit in an all human senate. Overall, I found Evon to be the mest race to win with... and infact don't think I've every taken them and not been in first or second place, even when getting a bad starting position.

Anyhow... What I'm getting at is that the races do not seem all that well balanced to me. Some are definitely better than average, and some are certainly poor. One thing I find annoying is planetary bombardment taking eons to wipe out the population, but the possitive side effect is it makes ground troop picks pretty powerful, as opposed to MoO2, where even the weakest ground picks could easily be made up for with a little tech.

Edgewise.

[Merovech]

Somebody could at least answer "i don't know".

[Unger]

Regarding Human vs. Evon / Psilon:

I’ve heard three potential hidden advantages for Humans:
1. “Least despised by New Orions.” This should help in the senate, and may reduce those pesky NO spies somewhat.
2. “Larger Terraforming Circles” Beta-tester swear this is true, although you can’t tell by looking.
3. Charismatic wrt leaders. Some people think humans get more and better leaders. It is just too random to test, so we will need a designer to confirm or deny this one.

If those advantages aren’t worth 110 picks to you, play Evon. Especially since the terraforming circle advantage must be fairly small.

Race Tech Stats

The popular interpretation given to the Racemod / techs table is dubious. If it had anything to do with number of techs, then tech races should get a good number. They don’t. A quick glance at the table will show that the opposite is true. Some theory must be developed that fits this fact, and then tested.

I must admit that I don’t yet have the game (I’m in South Africa), so I may be misinterpreting how tech works. The ‘old elephant’ had a separation between theories and applications. Could this value determine the research cost or speed for applications, as opposed to theory?

Or could it be related to the cost of an overrun? (Doubtful, but at least it works in the right direction).

Merovech

I don’t know. I’ll hazard a guess that you are seriously messing something up. Make sure you are actually making research DEA’s, that they are properly funded/staffed by your super-research race, and that spies aren’t robbing you blind. And try to stay on topic next time instead of hijacking the thread.

[dadacp]

The precise effects of various governments can be found by delving into "spreadsheets.mob". (It's a zip-type file.) This was posted on these forums as "moo3.xls". Unfortunately, I can't find the thread. So here's the section on governments (sorry, the spaces get compressed):

Government Type Bioharvesting Mining Manufacturing Research Military Space Port Recreation Oppression

Despotism -20% 0% 20% -5% 30% 0% -5% -7%
Monarchy -20% 0% 30% -10% 10% 5% 0% -6%
Oligarchy -10% -10% 0% 20% 0% 5% 0% 1%
Constitutional Monarchy 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 20% 0%
Corporate 20% 20% 10% 5% -20% 20% -20% -4%
Democracy 15% 10% 10% 5% -10% 0% 20% 12%
Parlimentary 0% 20% 30% 5% 0% 0% 0% 9%
Republicanism 0% 20% 20% 5% 20% -5% 0% 11%
Hive 30% 40% 20% 5% 40% -15% -15% -12%
Unification 20% 30% 10% 20% 30% -5% 0% -10%

[Unger]

I just read that humans get 1.25 senate votes per pop point, compared to 1 for every other race. Now that’s worth some serious pick points, perhaps 60+, given the likelihood of a senate win.

If this is true, it is the entire reason for human existence. Why isn’t anyone posting a fast-expansion human race? They have decent planet sizes and frequency, and tons of senate votes once the population gets within 70% of the bugs (who tend to have tiny planets). Cheap diplomacy picks. Good spies and enemy war weariness to avoid combat. Hasn’t anyone tried this?

[dadacp]

I just read that humans get 1.25 senate votes per pop point, compared to 1 for every other race.

I hadn't heard that before. Where does that information come from? Humans seem to be tailor-made for a senate victory. I guess I need to improve my diplomatic skills. I usually have trouble not getting kicked out of the senate.

[Merovech]

I don’t know. I’ll hazard a guess that you are seriously messing something up. Make sure you are actually making research DEA’s, that they are properly funded/staffed by your super-research race, and that spies aren’t robbing you blind. And try to stay on topic next time instead of hijacking the thread.

Hey, that's complecly about this thread. It's about customizing... I want to know; when you are customizing, in something like "bioharvesting" or "mining", there's 4 levels; Poor, Average, Good, Superior. My question is; in %, what's the difference between Bioharvesting Poor and Bioharvesting Average... or Mining Good and Mining Superior ?

[Alexfrog]

Originally posted by Unger
I just read that humans get 1.25 senate votes per pop point, compared to 1 for every other race. Now that’s worth some serious pick points, perhaps 60+, given the likelihood of a senate win.


Well, unfortunately, accoriding to the game files, this isnt true.

Humans, Evon, and Psilons all get 1.15 votes per pop point.

This is denoted by the "SenateEff *= 1.15" in racemodifiers.txt (I think)

Humans do not have alarger terraforming circle....you cn take picture of the screen for human and evon, lay them on top of each other ,and see that there is no difference in the circles. Neither do Raas have better circles than other lizards.

I dont think that "least despised by New Orions" refers to humans. It refers to all three humanoid races.....and is why they get 1.15 votes per pop point.

I dont see anything that humans get that evon dont....

[Unger]

I got the quote from Darkchampion:

1 pop point = 1 vote unless they are certain magnates or humans. (some magnates get a penalty and humans get 1.25 votes per pop point)
http://www.ina-community.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=275529&highlight=1.25+votes

Sorry if I led anyone astray. I'm just quoting the forum, trying to understand why some races seem to so weak...

It would probably be easy to check in-game if I had it... ARRGG!:mad:

[markmccoin]

I have been playing the Silicoids, I guess because I likes them so much in MoO2, they dont bioharvest so I don't have to waste DEA space building them and can build more mining/iindustry. I lowered the bioharvest pick to poor, thinking so what, I don't use that anyway, Is this a good idea or am I missing something? I lower all my ground force abilities to poor, I DO NOT take prisioners, bombard with all ordinances, start fresh if I want that planet. I increase science, although I still research at a slower pace than my opponents, I am not far behind Seems to work fine, drawback is population growth, which I can overcome.Can more than one player play same race?,ie. neither of us wants to spend time farming. Finally can you outright buy a DEA with$$ or can you only crank up the planets economic spending and planet grants to speed up the construction. thanks

[Nodoka]

Just a thought but maybe the unlisted bonuses that only humans get got cut?

[Strifeguard]

I noticed some other posters hinted at this, but not a lot of debate seemed to spark about it. I'm curious as to how forum goers think environmental tolerance and pre-set diplomacy values go into the "race customization" calculations.

To offer some examples:

All of the Saurian races clearly get the short end of the stick when it comes to race customization (very few total points). However, from my playing experience, as well as what I've gathered from others on the forum, these races never have any problem coming up with planets in the sweet spot, green, and yellow 1 environmental tolerances to colonize.

Meanwhile, the Aquatic races get far more points than the "average" number (note: the number of points all races recieve varies pretty heavily, but the Ethereans, the Meklar, the Evon, and the Psilon all get between 110-140 points, while the other races about 40 points above or below that range, all numbers from Pyroblade's post). However, anyone who's played a few games as the Trilarians knows that finding "green" worlds for them, let alone "sweet spots" is quite a chore.

The Ithkul get the most points by far (190), but then, everyone hates them, they can never be in the Senate, and they generally fight a lonely battle against the galaxy. That is, to me at least, worth quite a few points.

Also, some other things to consider: There are 2 aquatic races and only 3 reptilian races, as wells as 3 humanoid races, and only 2 cybernetik races. While this argument may be very weak, and I don't know if its something that the beta testers/developers took into account, that means in galaxy where computer races are picked at random, both the aquatic races and the cybernetik races are more likely to face more opponents who hate them at the start of the game than the humanoids, reptilians, ethereans and silicoids. This may also have been factored into the point totals for these races.

Obviously, I'm no kind of an expert on this, I'm just curious to see some discussion on this subject. After all, how many points is having a race with many "green" planets available worth? How many points is a race with no enemies worth?

[Hulk]

Hey, that's complecly about this thread. It's about customizing... I want to know; when you are customizing, in something like "bioharvesting" or "mining", there's 4 levels; Poor, Average, Good, Superior. My question is; in %, what's the difference between Bioharvesting Poor and Bioharvesting Average... or Mining Good and Mining Superior ?

Humm you want the % but it s telling you how many points it give more or less depending on what selection you make...here is what i found in the strategy guide

Bioharvesting
Superior =+2 farming and increases rare materials harvested 30%
good = +1 " " 15%
Average = no change
Poor = -1 " " Decreases rare materials Harvested by 15%

Mining
Superior = +2 Increase rare materials found by 30%
Good = +1 Increase rare materials found by 15%
Average = no change
Poor = -1 Decrease rare materials found by 15%

Manufacturing
Superior = +1 Increasees Craftsman materials by 20% and nets +2 to industry value per population points.

Good = + 0.5 " " by 10% and nets +1 to industry value " "

Average= no bonus

Poor = -0.5 " " -10% " " and -1 to Industry value " ".

Research

Superior = +6 to efficiency and increase test tubes /popul. by +1
Good = +3 " " +0.5
Average = no bonus
Poor = -3 " " -0.5

Trade
Superior = +2 to space port efficiency +20% trade agreements
Good = +1 +10%
Average = N/B
Poor = -1 -10%

Environmental
Superior = Pollution -30% Terraforming cost - 20%
Good = Pollution -15% Terraforming cost - 10%
Average = N/B
Poor = Pollution +20% Terraforming cost +10%

Economics
Investors = interest earned +5%, -2% Debts earned HFOG -25%
Monetarist = interest earned +2%, -1%Debts earned HFOG -10%
Species= Default
Race = interest earned -1%, -1% Debts earned HFOG +5%

Combat abilities Stacks up together
Accuracy
Superior = ground combat +2
good = +1
Average = N/B
Poor = -1

Reflexes (Represent Initiative)
Superior = ground combat +2
good = +1
Average = N/B
Poor = -1

Toughness
Superior = ground combat +2
good = +1
Average = N/B
Poor = -1

Diplomacy
No % giving but here it is
Superior greatly increase other races favorable attitude.
Good sligtly increase
Average mean the race have no opinion
Poor slightly decreases the race's initial attitude toward you !

Goverment
As said in the definitions

Citizenship
loyalty = -15 to unrest
Duty = -7
Association = n/c
Liberty = +5

Cunning
Dangerous = +2 all spies abilities +10 Luck
Quick = +1
Sharp = no change
Slow = -1

Creativity
Original = Decrease Tech. Overrun -10% and increase odds of beneficial overrun by +10%
Adaptive = -5% Tech Overrun Beneficial Overrun +5%
Normal = normal :P
Imitative increase Tech overrun +5% decrease odds -5%

well that s all about i can squeeze out the manual... hope it help someone.

Is that ok for an answer Merovech ? :P lol :)

[Todorojo]

Why the heck did they cut Economics? Thus seems to be one of the only things the Humans had going for them and not it really dosen't do a thing...except lower HFoG a little! Argh

[Da_Blade]

If they created a lot more unrest when changing gov's, and didn't remove the "revolts" when changing back to former gov, that little HFoG reduction would be QUITE powerfull!!! And afaik, the interest earned can be quite powerfull too. If you leave your planets on saving for a while to build up a nice balance, thats quite a lot of income. Just imagine, if your planets build up 100k balance they get a 5k per turn just interest, no taxes yet :D

[dadacp]

Interest income doesn't exist in single-player, untimed turns.

[Da_Blade]

Interest on empire balance doesn't exist. But afaik, there is an amount of interest on planetary balance...

[tleng]

Positive interest income does not exist (whether timed game or not). Negative interest income is still there... but how hard is it to keep your empire's cash positive? Note that trilarians get an "aquatic" bonus of +3 to environment whereas the Ethereans get +4 to manufacturing efficiency and +3 to research efficiency.

[DavidByron]

Is "natural engineers" oddly over-priced compared to manufacturing bonuses? It costs more than a point of manufacturing bonus and does strictly less doesn't it?

Natural Engineering = 1 extra cement / pop; costs 30.

Manufacturing = 1 extra cement / pop AND + 4 manufacturing efficiency; costs 20.

Seems to me to be at least three times as expensive for the effect it has. Am I missing something?

[kalbear]

nat. engineering doesn't cost 20 for everyone (or 30, for that matter), but the 'special' abilities are designed so that they aren't super good compared to the standard picks. Basically, if you really want to specialize in a field, you can do so, but it's inefficient.

Also, manufacturing has been bumped up to 30 instead of 20.

[HairyScotsman]

Thanks for the help Alex, once again your advice saved my arse.
Theres one thing I noticed though. After I applied that data patch that Quicksilver released, the economics section on the custom race picks is no longer there! This messed with some stuff when I tried to use your super production race, and I had to make some cutbacks to make up for the points I didnt have. Is there a solution, or I am just blind and cant see the economics section? I dont know. Somebody please help! MoO 3 Is a great game, but I should think that for MoO 4, they NEED TO PUBLISH A BETTER MANUAL. Simple problems like this shouldn't require in-depth research to resolve. Well, Im done with my moment on the soapbox now, so somebody please tell me what the deal is. Thanks.

[sageofwisdom]

The data patch removed the economics section, it is gone.

[Wu-Lan]

I could've missed it somewhere, but I've noticed that Nommo tend to auto-populate planets like some of the magnate civs without needing a colony ship. I haven't tested it yet with the other Ichtytosian race (or with etherians or geodic, whom I'd suspect of being capable of this also story-wise) but compared to the Humanoid, Insect or Cyber I've definitely seen this as a Nommo only advantage.
Also re. the leaders; playing as Nommo, Cynoid or either Insect I seem to get the second rate leaders exclusively. Loknar has only appeared for me playing Humanoid, as had some high-percentage leaders, though this may just be a coincidence.

Also for everyone seeking how the races balance out: They might never have been balanced to each other. It might just be that Humans really are the runts of Orion, like the Ithkul are quite superior. This I might add is a sigh of relief compared to most strategy games in which the humans seem to be best at everything.

[Chinese Tourist]

No, as Meklar my people do autopopulate.

Yes, the Economics section is gone.

I tend to get leaders who complement my race's weaknesses.

[DoubleSkulls]

All races auto-populate planets. The only limiting factors are population pressure and available planets (I'm guessing that migration to a yellow world requires more pressure than to a sweet spot).

The reason magnates expand so fast is because their population is crowded into 1 region and they have difference preferences to everyone else.

[Da_Blade]

Any race with that much pop in one region will migrate. Your races too. The reason they tend to migrate to new planets is because

a) they prefer other worlds then you do
b) migration doesn't happen to regions already populated by another race.

This means they will generally not migrate to your existing colony's, and will form new ones themselves instead, due to the big push factor of being crammed into one region.

[DavidByron]

Original post needs to be updated with the post-patch values.

Also, as per this thread (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=287914), we know that there are some differences in what the races can find in terms of good quality colonies.

Humanoid: best colonisers.

Insectoid / Cybernetik: the most colonies but they tend to be small, especially if they have minerals

Sauon, Ichthytosian: average

Etherians: few good colonies but they are large and often have minerals. easier to micromanage

Geodic, Harvester: very few good colonies (especially the Harvesters).


Harvesters deserve to be bad colonists (since they are so good at everything else), but I think the Silicoids get a raw deal :(

[Jomungur]

Some code patch changes:

Klackons growth rate reduced to 115% from 130%
Silicoids growth penalty reduced to 15% from 25%
Trilarians/Nommo ideal gravity has been changed to 'high'! This is going to make an already good race much better.

Gasbags are untouched...

[DavidByron]

Not necessarily. It may make it harder for them to find good colonies. However my recall is that they would benefit from this slightly as far as green/green goes.

[Zed-F]

Note that I have snipped out a lot of AlexFrog's commentary. This is just the meat as copied from the racial customization screen and a bit from the race tables. I don't claim there are no errors here but it ought to be mostly correct.

Another note: I made some slight changes to the way the data is presented. The total points value is displayed as X(Y), where X is the sum of the value of the picks of the unmodified race, and Y is the number of picks you have to play with (considering you get some stuff for free etc.) The adjusted total points value retains the same meaning as previously.



The standard costs for racial picks are:

Collectivist Government: 60
Representative Government: 30
Natural Engineers: 30
Fantastic Traders: 10
Tolerant: 20
Empathic: 10
Antaran Background: 10
Choosing Orion Senate Yes or No instead of Random: 10
Each level of increase in your “Homeworld’s” Biodiversity or Mineral rating: 10
Each level of increase in Trade, Reflexes, Accuracy, or Toughness: 10
Each level of increase in Manufacturing: 30
Each level of increase in all other abilities: 20


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HUMANOIDS:
Gravity: Moderate, Pressure/Temperature: 5/4
All humanoids get an improvement to Research, Senate Effectiveness, and Casus Belli (it causes more unrest in others empires if they go to war with you). They also get a significant bonus to their relations with other empires.

HUMAN:
BH-Avg(20), Min-Avg(20), Man-Avg(30), Rs-Gd(40), Tr-Avg(10), Env-Pr(0), Acc-Avg(10), Ref-Avg(10), T-Pr(0), Dip-Avg(20), Gv-Rep(30), Cit-Pr(0), Cun-Sup(60), Cre-Avg(20), Spc-None(0)

Total Points: 270(230)
Free average diplomacy (already included)
Good and Superior Diplomacy costs reduced by 10 (worth 20)
Representative Government cost reduced by 10 (already included)
Normal Creativity cost reduced by 10 (already included)
Total Reductions: 20(60)
Adjusted Total Points: 290

War Tolerance -1, Research Efficiency +5%, Senate Effectiveness 115%, Relations Bonus +25%, Casus Belli Bonus +6%, Ground Combat Initiative +30
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, MeansWar += 3, ReseaEff += 0.5, OSMayILB *=1.15, PositvDP *= 1.25, PositvCB *=1.06, Environ=0)

Forbidden Picks: Superior Toughness, Poor Diplomacy, Antaran Background


EVON:
BH-Avg(20), Min-Avg(20), Man-Avg(30), Rs-Avg(20), Tr-Gd(20), Env-Sup(60), Acc-Gd(20), Ref-Gd(20), T-Avg(10), Dip-Pr(0), Gv-Rep(30), Cit-Sup(60), Cun-Sup(60), Cre-Gd(40), Spc-None(0)

Total Points: 410(390)
Average Research cost reduced by 10 (already included)
Representative Government cost reduced by 10 (already included)
Total Reductions: 0(20)
Adjusted Total Points: 410

Research Efficiency +5%, Ground Combat Initiative +30
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, ReseaEff += 0.5, MeansWar+=2, Environ=0)

Forbidden Picks: Superior Diplomacy, Superior Creativity


PSILON:
BH-Pr(0), Min-Pr(0), Man-Avg(30), Rs-Sup(60), Tr-Gd(20), Env-Avg(20), Acc-Avg(10), Ref-Pr(0), T-Pr(0), Dip-Sup(60), Gv-Abs(0), Cit-Avg(20), Cun-Gd(40), Cre-Sup(60), Spc-None(0)

Total Points: 320(310)
Average Citizenship cost reduced by 10 (already included)
Total Reductions: 0(10)
Adjusted Total Points: 320

Max Oppressometer 3, War Tolerance -1, Research Efficiency +30%, Senate Effectiveness 115%, Relations Bonus +25%, Casus Belli Bonus +6%, Population Growth Penalty 10%, Ground Combat Initiative +30
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, MeansWar += 3, ReseaEff += 3, OSMayILB *= 1.15, PositvDP *= 1.25, PositvCB *= 1.06, mPopGrow *= 0.9, Environ=0)

Forbidden Picks: Superior Toughness


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


CYBERNETICS:
Gravity: Low, Pressure/Temperature: 2/5
The “Uses ½ minerals ½ food to feed population” is a big one for the cybernetics. Much of the early strategy and development will focus around it. Both Cybernetics also get a massive increase in Manufacturing.


MEKLAR:
BH-Pr(0), Min-Avg(20), Man-Gd(60), Rs-Gd(40), Tr-Pr(0), Env-Pr(0), Acc-Sup(30), Ref-Avg(10), T-Gd(20), Dip-Gd(40), Gv-Abs(0), Cit-Gd(40), Cun-Sup(60), Cre-Sup(60), Spc-None(0)

Total Points: 380(350)
Free Average Manufacturing (already included)
Natural Engineers cost reduced by 20 (worth 20)
Tolerant Cost reduced by 10 (worth 10)
Cost Reductions: 30(60)
Adjusted Total Points: 410

Manufacturing Efficiency +40%, Ground combat Initiative +10, Ground Combat Accuracy +20, Uses Bioharvest Output 50% and Mining Output 50% to Feed Population
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, ManufEff += 4,MeansWar+=2, Environ=1)

Forbidden Abilities: Superior Bioharvest, Poor Manufacturing, Superior Trade, Superior Diplomacy, Fantastic Traders


CYNOID:
BH-Pr(0), Min-Sup(60), Man-Sup(90), Rs-Gd(40), Tr-Sup(30), Env-Pr(0), Acc-Gd(20), Ref-Gd(20), T-Gd(20), Dip-Pr(0), Gv-Abs(0), Cit-Avg(20), Cun-Gd(40), Cre-Gd(40), Spc-None(0)

Total Points: 380(340)
Free Average Manufacturing (already included)
Average Citizenship cost reduced by 10 (already included)
Natural Engineers cost reduced by 20 (worth 20)
Tolerant Cost reduced by 10 (worth 10)
Cost Reductions: 30(70)
Adjusted Total Points: 410

Manufacturing Efficiency +40%, Ground combat Initiative +10, Ground Combat Accuracy +20, Uses Bioharvest Output 50% and Mining Output 50% to Feed Population
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, ManufEff += 4,MeansWar+=2, Environ=1)

Forbidden Abilities: Poor Manufacturing, Empathic


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SAURIANS:
Gravity: Moderate, Pressure/Temperature: 7/7

SAKKRA:
BH-Pr(0), Min-Avg(20), Man-Gd(60), Rs-Gd(40), Tr-Pr(0), Env-Pr(0), Acc-Sup(30), Ref-Avg(10), T-Sup(30), Dip-Pr(0), Gv-Abs(0), Cit-Sup(60), Cun-Gd(40), Cre-Avg(20), Spc-None(0)

Total Points: 310(310)
Bioharvesting picks costs reduced by 10 (worth 30)
Cost Reductions: 30(30)
Adjusted Total Picks: 340

Pollution Tolerance +25%, Population Growth Bonus +10%, Ground Combat Initiative +10, Ground Combat Attack Strength +20
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, PolluAbs *= 1.5, mPopGrow *= 1.1, MeansWar+=2, Environ=0)

Forbidden Picks: Superior Diplomacy, Empathic


RAAS:
BH-Gd(40), Min-Avg(20), Man-Sup(90), Rs-Avg(20), Tr-Gd(20), Env-Pr(0), Acc-Gd(20), Ref-Gd(20), T-Pr(0), Dip-Gd(40), Gv-Abs(0), Cit-Avg(20), Cun-Avg(20), Cre-Avg(20), Spc-None(0)

Total Points: 330(310)
Free Average Bioharvesting (already included)
Cost Reductions: 0(20)
Adjusted Total Points: 330
Max Oppressometer 6, Pollution Tolerance +25%, Population Growth Bonus +10%, Ground Combat Initiative +10, Ground Combat Attack Strength +20
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, PolluAbs *= 1.5, mPopGrow *= 1.1, MeansWar+=2, Environ=0)

Forbidden Abilities: Poor Bioharvesting.


GRENDARL:
BH-Avg(20), Min-Avg(20), Man-Gd(60), Rs-Avg(20), Tr-Gd(20), Env-Pr(0), Acc-Gd(20), Ref-Gd(20), T-Sup(30), Dip-Pr(0), Gv-Abs(0), Cit-Gd(40), Cun-Avg(20), Cre-Pr(0), Spc-None(0)

Total Points: 270(250)
Free Average Reflexes (already included)
Free Average Toughness (already included)
Good and Superior Mining costs reduced by 10 (worth 20)
Citizenship Loyalty costs reduced by 10 (worth 10)
Cost Reductions: 30(50)
Adjusted Total Points: 300
Max Oppressometer 6, Pollution Tolerance +25%, Population Growth Bonus +25%, Ground Combat Initiative +10, Ground Combat Attack Strength +20
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, PolluAbs *= 1.5, mPopGrow *= 1.25, MeansWar+=2, Environ=0)

Forbidden Picks: Poor Reflexes, Poor Toughness.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ICTHYTOSIANS:
Gravity: High, Pressure/Temperature: 8/3

TRILARIANS:
BH-Gd(40), Min-Avg(20), Man-Gd(60), Rs-Sup(60), Tr-Avg(10), Env-Gd(40), Acc-Avg(10), Ref-Avg(10), T-Pr(0), Dip-Gd(40), Gv-Abs(0), Cit-Sup(60), Cun-Pr(0), Cre-Gd(40), Spc-None(0)

Total Points: 390
Cost Reductions: 0(0)
Adjusted Total Points: 390

Ground Combat Initiative +20, Ground Combat Evade +30
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, MeansWar+=2, Environ=3)

Forbidden Picks: Superior Toughness.

NOMMO:
BH-Sup(60), Min-Avg(20), Man-Gd(60), Rs-Sup(60), Tr-Gd(20), Env-Avg(20), Acc-Pr(0), Ref-Pr(0), T-Pr(0), Dip-Sup(60), Gv-Abs(0), Cit-Pr(0), Cun-Avg(20), Cre-Sup(60), Spc-None(0)

Total Points: 380(360)
Citizenship picks costs are reduced by 10 (worth 30)
Free Average Cunning (already included)
Cost Reductions: 30(50)
Adjusted Total Points: 410

Ground Combat Initiative +20, Ground Combat Evade +30
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, MeansWar+=2, Environ=3)

Forbidden Picks: Superior Toughness, Slow Cunning


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ETHEREANS:
Gravity: Extreme, Pressure/Temperature: 9/5

Seeing that Green 1 Terraforming Circle run off the top of the screen, and knowing that that means you have a lot less planets that will be colonizable for you easily, is painful. However, you must remember that the ones you do like will usually be REALLY BIG.
This preference for extreme gravity, extreme pressure worlds is the Ethereans most important ability.

IMSAEIS:
BH-Sup(60), Min-Gd(40), Man-Avg(30), Rs-Pr(0), Tr-Avg(10), Env-Sup(60), Acc-Pr(0), Ref-Pr(0), T-Pr(0), Dip-Sup(60), Gv-Abs(0), Cit-Sup(60), Cun-Pr(0), Cre-Gd(40), Spc-None(0)

Total Points: 360(340)
Free Average Bioharvesting (already included)
Cunning picks costs reduced by 10 (worth 30)
Cost Reductions: 30(50)
Adjusted Total Points: 390

Manufacturing Efficiency +40%, Research Efficiency +30%, Ground Combat Initiative +20, Ground Combat Attacks +1
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, ManufEff+=4, ReseaEff+=3,MeansWar+=2, Environ=2)

Forbidden Picks: Poor Bioharvesting, Superior Mining, Superior Toughness


EOLADI:
BH-Sup(60), Min-Pr(0), Man-Avg(30), Rs-Gd(40), Tr-Avg(10), Env-Sup(60), Acc-Avg(10), Ref-Pr(0), T-Pr(0), Dip-Gd(40), Gv-Abs(0), Cit-Sup(60), Cun-Pr(0), Cre-Sup(60), Spc-None(0)

Total Points: 370(350)
Free Average Bioharvesting (already included)
Cost Reductions: 0(20)
Adjusted Total Points: 370

Manufacturing Efficiency +40%, Research Efficiency +30%, Ground Combat Initiative +20, Ground Combat Attacks +1
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, ManufEff+=4, ReseaEff+=3, MeansWar+=2, Environ=2)

Forbidden Picks: Poor Bioharvesting, Superior Mining, Superior Toughness


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


GEODICS:
Gravity: High, Pressure/Temperature: 4/7

Geodics eat minerals, which will be heavily influential in how you choose to develop and expand early on, and where you focus your research. They start with 4 Mining DEAs and no Bioharvesting. They also have a significant penalty to population growth.

SILICOIDS:
BH-Avg(20), Min-Sup(60), Man-Avg(30), Rs-Pr(0), Tr-Pr(0), Env-Sup(60), Acc-Pr(0), Ref-Pr(0), T-Sup(30), Dip-Pr(0), Gv-Abs(0), Cit-Gd(40), Cun-Pr(0), Cre-Gd(40), Spc-Natural Engineers(30), Spc-Tolerant(20)

Total Points: 330(260)
Free Average Mining (already included)
Free Natural Engineers (already included)
Free Tolerant (already included)
Cost Reductions: 0(70)
Adjusted Total Points: 330

Population Growth Penalty 15%, Mining Efficiency +40%, Ground Combat Armor +20, Ground Combat Hit Points +2, Uses Bioharvest Output 0% and Mining Output 100% to Feed Population
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, mPopGrow *= 0.85, MineEff += 4,MeansWar+=2, Environ=0)

Cost Increases: Original Creativity costs 30 (10 more)
Forbidden Picks: Superior Bioharvesting, Poor Mining, Superior Reflexes


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


INSECTOIDS:
Gravity: Low, Pressure/Temperature: 3/4

Insectoids have massive population growth bonuses, which will give them a big edge, and can help them win in the senate. However, their preference for lower gravity worlds means they will have less maximum population available on their planets.

KLACKON:
BH-Gd(40), Min-Sup(60), Man-Sup(90), Rs-Pr(0), Tr-Pr(0), Env-Avg(20), Acc-Avg(10), Ref-Gd(20), T-Pr(0), Dip-Avg(20), Gv-Coll(60), Cit-Sup(60), Cun-Pr(0), Cre-Pr(0), Spc-None(0)

Total Points: 380(340)
Free Citizenship Association (already included)
Superior Bioharvesting cost reduced by 10 (worth 10)
Good and Superior Environment costs reduced by 10 (worth 20)
Collectivist Government cost reduced by 20 (already included)
Representative Government cost reduced by 10 (already included)
Cost Reductions: 30(70)
Adjusted Total Points: 410

Population Growth Bonus 15%, Ground Combat Initiative +10
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, mPopGrow *= 1.15,MeansWar+=2, Environ=1)

Forbidden Picks: Poor Citizenship, Superior Creativity


TACHIDI:
BH-Pr(0), Min-Sup(60), Man-Gd(60), Rs-Avg(20), Tr-Avg(10), Env-Avg(20), Acc-Avg(10), Ref-Pr(0), T-Sup(30), Dip-Pr(0), Gv-Coll(60), Cit-Gd(40), Cun-Pr(0), Cre-Avg(20), Spc-None(0)

Total Points: 330(290)
Free Citizenship Association (already included)
Superior Manufacturing cost reduced by 20 (worth 20)
Collectivist Government cost reduced by 20 (already included)
Representative Government cost reduced by 10 (already included)
Cost Reductions: 20(60)
Adjusted Total Points: 350

Population Growth Bonus 35%, Ground Combat Initiative +10
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, mPopGrow *= 1.35,MeansWar+=2, Environ=1)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


HARVESTERS:
Gravity: High, Pressure/Temperature: 4/2

ITHKUL:
BH-Sup(60), Min-Avg(20), Man-Sup(90), Rs-Gd(40), Tr-Pr(0), Env-Gd(40), Acc-Gd(20), Ref-Sup(30), T-Sup(30), Dip-Pr(0), Gv-Abs(0), Cit-Sup(60), Cun-Gd(40), Cre-Avg(20), Spc-Antaran Background(10), Spc-Tolerant(20)

Total Points: 480(450)
Free Tolerant ability (already included)
Free Antaran Background ability (already included)
Collectivist Government cost reduced by 20 (worth 20)
“Free” Orion Senate: No
Cost Reductions: 20(50) + Automatic Senate: No
Total Points: 500 + Automatic Senate: No

War Tolerance +1 (More likely to have war declared), Senate Effectiveness 60%, Ground combat Initiative +10, ground Combat Rally Chance +2, Ground Combat Rout Chance +2 (Less Routs)
(Racetables: GndCombt = 3, MeansWar += 1, OSMayILB *= 0.6, Environ=0)

Forbidden Picks: Cannot depart from baseline by more than 1 level, Representative Government, Senate: Random, Senate: Yes

[vorenhutz]

IIRC Ichthytosians now like high gravity. I can't check this right now, but there are probably others (ithkul and silicoids spring to mind).

[Fodder]

HI all,

Just a quick post to say thanks to AlexFrog's and Zed-F commentry about the racial picks. I am huge fan of MOO2 and have just started on MOO3. Takes a little time to work your head around but if people are happy to change their style from MOO2 micromanage to MOO3s macro it a dam fine game :cool:

I must admit I have probabley learnt more in the past 24 hours reading people's posting than experimenting with MOO3 for the last week. Now I only lament I did not buy the game when it first came out :cry: and read all these posts first!

Guess I'll keep shouldering on with my poor race pick but it's sooo tempting to start again.....

Keep up the good work people and keep the posts coming :D

Cheers

Fodder

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Knowledge is only dangerous in the hands of the Ignorant

[Avatar_Squadron]

Ive found that the humans make money faster... which i a good thing if ur ike me... u save save save save till u have 200k AU then splurg it all on 6 armadas of high tech super dreads.

However I tend to favor the Nommo. I put all ground combat scores to poor cause of th3e +10 intiaitive and +30 evade, that plus 30 evade really helps... what good are the enemies weapons if they cant hit you?

[ElZoido]

Can anyone explain to me what this stats mean:
OSMayILB *=1.15, PositvDP *= 1.25, PositvCB *=1.06, Environ=0

They look like some positive perks the humans get, but just what do they do?

[rhyssan]

Originally posted by ElZoido
Can anyone explain to me what this stats mean:
OSMayILB *=1.15, PositvDP *= 1.25, PositvCB *=1.06, Environ=0

They look like some positive perks the humans get, but just what do they do?
OSMayILB - was thought for some time to be a number of orion senate per-pop votes modifier, but that was debunked by devs at some point. it's something to do with how likely they are to introduce legistlation in the orion senate - has no effect for a human player.

PositvDP - diplomacy points (remember there are some techs that give you a bonus to your diplo points?)

PositvCB - positive causus belli

i'm not sure what Environ is, but it's not a bonus. most of the races have a value of 0 for it, and the value range is (0:3).

btw - there's a stickied thread in the mod forums for info about spreadsheet/game modifiers.

-rhyssan

[Kloreep]

I did a search on Environ a while ago, and finally found a thread that said it indicated whether to use one of the popbonus tables in habitability.txt. 1=subterranean bonus (+3 max pop to all planets), 2=flight bonus (max pop penalty to smaller worlds, bonus to larger ones), and 3=aquatic (this one's weird... the bonus peaks at size 4 and reduces in either direction, eventually becoming negative).

So the only category that benefits all world sizes is subterranean.

[Archonon]

touch to prevent deletion

[Lennier]

Originally posted by Archonon
touch to prevent deletion You're it.

:mad: 60 :mad: second :mad: limit :mad: .

[rgr4mac]

On the mac ver.1.2.5 the Harvesters gravity is moderate instead of high.

[Poptoad]

Is the Subterranean bonus +3 per PLANET? That doesn't seem like much, in fact, hardly anything. Or have I been staring at big Nommo-sized 80 planets for too long? Make that +3 per REGION and you'd have a real advantage, particularly for a race that likes such teeny planets.

Poptoad.

[WebSnozz]

Ithkul are listed here and on several sites as being high gravity preference. But when I played them they had medium gravity preference.

[Poptoad]

They were High Gravity pre-patch.

[Lord G.Q. White]

Thanks for the help.

[Da_Blade]

No problem.

[Tarhalindur]

I like this thread. As such, I am making sure that it does not get deleted. :)

[SMELLJAB]

lookit this hack it took time but im outta work and i can play with excel and paintshop pro

http://f5.putfile.com/5/14518531058-thumb.png (http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/14518531058.png&s=f5)

[Grimbear]

lookit this hack it took time but im outta work and i can play with excel and paintshop pro

http://f5.putfile.com/5/14518531058-thumb.png (http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/14518531058.png&s=f5)
Since you posted this, maybe you can give me some related info? I know where & what the files are that I want to mod (habitability.txt, MOO3Starsheets), but the way values are expressed is totally different. I don't know any program language, don't have Excel. But what I want to do shouldn't require either, if I can just find out what "PIANSSR2" (or whatever) really means. More specifically, what it means IN RELATION to ALL races, not just Humans. Is it a gas giant? A desert planet? What? Thank you in advance for any and all assistance.

[LORD ORION]

Do the colonization tables and ground unit modifiers work?

eg: Silicoids make nice armor and certain races aren't affected as much being outside of their habitability rings and gravity norms?

Can't remember, but I do not these modifiers exsist, it's more a matter of wether they work or not.

[SMELLJAB]

Do the colonization tables and ground unit modifiers work?

eg: Silicoids make nice armor and certain races aren't affected as much being outside of their habitability rings and gravity norms?

Can't remember, but I do not these modifiers exsist, it's more a matter of wether they work or not.

I hate to do this to you, but you really didn't make your question very specific.
I hope you are running the Unofficial Patch mod BTW.

Besides Race Picks: the Environmental Picks, and the Ethos Picks
There's also the Population growth bonus, and the Pollution per population Penalty. Oops, forgot the Pollution tolerance bonus the Insects have.

My view on the subject is that the Ecological Density is very important for pollution-- If you are on a similar planet---Watch out because pollution will be a big cost.

[LORD ORION]

There are many different modifiers in the spread sheets, I was asking if they actually work or not. I don't remember, it's been almost 3 years since I had this conversation.

eg: Migration to regions on a planet due to population growth are affected by %, and the %s are different for the race types.

Humanoid 65
Etherean 75

So according to this, new population growth of humanoids are 10% more likely (35% chance instead of 25% chance) to leave a region and spread to a new one.

There are lots of small details like this in the spread sheets that indicate racial differeces. The previous post was just giving some examples.

Oh, and it's the saurian races that have inate pollution reduction, not the bugs. ;)

Thanks,
-O

[Dimeron]

As someone has said, looking through the spreadsheet, human does have the best economic picks. While interest rate is nice, the HoFG *= 0.75 can be huge late game. I know that the switching government to reduce HoFG no longer works with later versions, so reducing HoFG is very nice bonus.

I think the devs removed one of the advantage of the humans had, but didn't bother to give anything back to compensate. Should have just made economic a hidden attribute, where races can still get the bonus/penalty but can’t change it.

O well. At least human is good to play as the underdog.

And yea, Gasbags and Evons are severally overpowered IMO. I usually only play humans, and when I switched to Gasbags and Evons, it was a lot easier.

[Grimbear]

As someone has said, looking through the spreadsheet, human does have the best economic picks. While interest rate is nice, the HoFG *= 0.75 can be huge late game. I know that the switching government to reduce HoFG no longer works with later versions, so reducing HoFG is very nice bonus.

I think the devs removed one of the advantage of the humans had, but didn't bother to give anything back to compensate. Should have just made economic a hidden attribute, where races can still get the bonus/penalty but can’t change it.

O well. At least human is good to play as the underdog.

And yea, Gasbags and Evons are severally overpowered IMO. I usually only play humans, and when I switched to Gasbags and Evons, it was a lot easier.Just because...how much sense does it make to give a race that has continual cycles of recessions which escalate into full-blown depressions, that can't get control of inflation an ECONOMIC BONUS?!? Realistically, Humans should get the "dunce cap" when it comes to Economics AND Diplomacy! Because there is ALWAYS a war going on, somewhere on this planet.

[Lennier]

We had to get good a diplomacy before we got into space, or else we would have wiped ourselves out. ;)

[Grimbear]

We had to get good a diplomacy before we got into space, or else we would have wiped ourselves out. ;)Uh, no, we didn't get good diplomacy...and we already got into space and are exploring it...and we haven't destroyed ourselves yet...and we aren't any better at diplomacy then we ever were.

And why would you assume that WE are the "Humans" represented in the game? Maybe the game Humans are what we're descended from...not the other way around!

And remember, They (the "They" is actually "Us") call it "Human nature, well, ...because it is Human nature!

A basic Human failing is that we believe that just because we come up with a "label" for something, we understand that something...and it just ain't so! We're really good at labels...it's the explanations and understanding where we fall on our collective faces! You might not believe it, but most people honestly believe that just because something has a "label", it is automatically understood!

And I also understand that you were probably giving a light-hearted, half-joking answer...and in a way, this is all part of a very large, cosmoc joke...I wonder if God is laughing, though, or if He's even there...:confused:

I'm tired, worn out and grumpy...I need a nap...

[Monkey Head]

We had to get good a diplomacy before we got into space, or else we would have wiped ourselves out.

its possible to argue that the reason we got into space [particularly the moon - uh oh i opened that can of worms!] is that diplomacy between the USSR and the USA pretty much sucked. keneddy and all that. grassy knoll. wink wink. nudge nudge.

[Grimbear]

its possible to argue that the reason we got into space [particularly the moon - uh oh i opened that can of worms!] is that diplomacy between the USSR and the USA pretty much sucked. keneddy and all that. grassy knoll. wink wink. nudge nudge.Been busy, just checked ny e-mails for forum updates...seems like my friend is "stirring the pot", eh?

But that will have to wait until my mod checking is all done...(sigh) :D

[Monkey Head]

hehe you know i love it.

[JosEPh]

GB,

IS IT DONE YET !??

i'm gettin' old here!

JosEPh ;) :respect:

[Grimbear]

GB,

IS IT DONE YET !??

i'm gettin' old here!

JosEPh ;) :respect:Errh, a little snag...seem to have mis-placed my good copy of the red cd, the one you need to run the game...never did get the "no-cd", so now I've ordered a 3rd game set from Amazon (new, because I worry about some jerk selling me a ruined copy, like the one game disc I have that won't work after my last computer's disc drive ate it, just a little! )

But I am extremely close to the place I want to be, where I can pretty much say that everything in the mod works...there are some things about spies that I want to play around with (actually, want to check what my fiddling causes, so I can adjust accordingly)...but I had to know that everything else worked, before I could add on any spy changes, right?

I am still working on wsEncyclopedia.txt, and will be working on that file during the period of beta-testing, (which is where you come in, along with a select few...I won't release the mod publicly until at least 98% of the "kinks" are out of it.)

But for the next three weeks (the stated delivery time on Amazon.com, btw) all I'll be doing is checking over what I've already written up, mostly wsTechnology, trying to reduce unneccessary verbiage.

I believe the game is so processor-hungry partly because of the sheer volume of bits of info that must be held in memory, especially as the game reaches later stages. Because I've added so many new techs, I need to compensate and reduce unneeded words wherever I can.