PDA

View Full Version : Extensive testing of the effect of Creativity on the percentage of techs available


Alexfrog
03-08-2003, 04:04 AM
Extensive testing of the effect of Creativity on the percentage of techs available to a race, and testing of the effect of changing the “Techs” value in the racemodifiers.txt file, for a given race.


Alright, I just spent 5 hours doing a bunch of tests on the effect of creativity on the number of techs you get. (Counting the time taken to write this all up) I also tested different creativity values with different values for the “Techs” value in racemodifier.txt

Specifically, I played as Psilons, one game with the Techs value at 100, one game with Techs value at their base of 43.5, and one at a Techs value of 0, all with creativity original. This was to see what the effect was of modifying that techs value in race modifiers.txt Then, I played one game at each of those Techs settings with my creativity reduced to Imitative. This was to see the effect that Creativity skill had on the percentage of Techs acquired. My findings were very interesting.

Basically, I found that a higher creativity skill leads to a LOT more techs being present in the tree. I also found that modifying the Techs value for a race in the racemodifiers.txt file had NO effect on the number of techs that would be present in the tree. (Data to follow).

Note that I tried this only with Psilons as my race, and only with Techs values of 0, 100 and the Psilon base of 43.5. I also greatly increased population growth and scientific efficiency to improve the amount of time it would take to get the techs required. I played until all techs of level 12 or less were visible on my tree. I used a mod which adds the tech level of each technology onto the name of that technology, BEFORE the modification up or down by 1 or 2 levels is applied. Thus, I had “Biology level 5 Soil Enrichment” appearing in my tech tree at varying levels, from 3 to 7. I made sure that I recorded all techs which had a Base level of 12 or less, and recorded no techs with a base level of greater than 12, so that my tests would not be affected by technologies shifting up or down in the tree. I made sure that technologies up to level 14 were visible, such that all Base level 12 techs would appear in my tree (that were going to appear).

There are the following possibilities that are untested:

1) Modifying Techs to 0 or 100 has no effect because it goes outside of a range of acceptable values, and thus the program just uses the default values in those cases. Further testing needs to be done at more intermediate values for Techs, such as 20, 60, and 80.

2) It is possible that the Techs value in the racemodifiers.txt table is not used by the program, but that another Techs value is hardcoded into the program at some point. Thus, there is some value representing the percentage of techs a race gets, but that this isn’t it. It is thus possible that Psilons have a hardcoded “43.5” for this value (or something else), and that Klackons have a hardcoded “66”, which doesn’t change by modifying the value in racemodifiers.txt

3) It is possible that another race will have a different percentage of techs in their tree, and that creativity may affect this by a different amount. If for example, Psilons have a hardcoded 43.5 and Klackons a hardcoded 66, then Klackons may get more or less techs in their tree even at the same creativity level, (based on what exactly that value means)

4) The Techs value and creativity may affect techs of differing levels differently. I only tested techs from levels 1 to 12, not for tech levels above this. I find this very doubtful.

Thus, more testing must be done to determine the full effects of creativity and the Techs value, on different races. I recommend choosing techs values of more moderate ranges such as 20, 40, 60, 80, in addition to 0 and 100. I recommend doing tests on races with very different Techs values than Psilons, such as Klackons (66) and Ithkul (73.5)
I will do this at a later time (possibly in 2 days), if no one else does it. I encourage people to make experiments like this, carefully record their data, and post their results here.


My Data:

These are all the techs I had on my chart with a base level of 12 or less, playing with Psilons with a “Techs” value of 100, and Original Creativity:
I use “C” to designate Economics techs, “E” for Energy, “B” for Biology, “M” for mathematics, “P” for Physical Sciences, and “S” for Social. Thus “B3” means Biology tech with base level of 3. “C3/M2” means the tech requires a base level of 3 in economics, and base level 2 in mathematics. I do not record at what level the techs appeared in my tree during the game, as it is irrelevant. All recorded levels are the base tech level.

Econ Tree:
C3/M2: Interchangeable Policy Structures
C4: Advanced Policy Theory
C8: Securities Board
C8/M5: Astro University
C9/B7: Anti-Redundancy Structuring
C11: Automated Mines
C12: Planetary Commodities Market

Energy:
E2: Phaser Rifle
E4: Autofire Laser, Hand Blaster, Armor Piercing Laser, Continuous Laser
E5: Quark Cannon, Fusion Cannon, Personal Deflector
E6: Fusion Gun, Plasma Projector, Matter Conversion Module (always on tree)
E7: Autofire Fighter Laser
E8: Fighter Fusion Cannon
E9: Armor Piercing Quark Cannon, Continuous Quark Cannon, Enveloping Fusion Cannon, Hydrogen Fuel Cells, Continuous Fusion Cannon
E10: Laser Assault Rifle
E10/M8: Planetary Shield Generator (always in tree)
E12: Phaser Assault Rifle

Biology:
B2: Hydroponic Farms
B5: Soil Enrichment, Decomposition Center
B8/M6: Interorganizational Evolution
B10: Automated Biocare

Mathematics:
M4: Laser Mini 1, Mass Driver Mini 1
M5: Nuclear Engine
M8: Laser Mini 2, Mass Driver Mini 2, Catalyst Design
M9: Sublight Drives, Fusion Mini 1, Quark Mini 1
M10/S10: Netizenship
M12: ECM 2, ECCM 2

Physical:
P3: Armor Penetrating Fighter Mass Driver, Titanium, Armor Piercing Nuclear Warhead
P4: Armor Penetrating Mass Driver, Autofire Mass Driver
P5: Marine, Missile Armor
P6: Cruiser (always on tree), Deep Extraction Mining
P7: Mobilization Center (always on tree), Spaceport (always on tree)
P9: Point Defense, Mobile
P10: Magazine, Rail Gun, Enviro Suits, Structural Shielding, Duranium, Sunlight Redirection
P11: Automated Factories, Materials Processor (always in tree), Medium Armor
P11/B8: Sanitation Infrastructure, Planetology Complex
P11/E8: Battle Cruiser (always on tree)
P12: Heavy Mount, Unity Defense Grid

Social:
S5: Psy-Ops
S8: Xeno Survivor Academy, Monuments
S9: Advanced Research Labs, Espionage Training Requirement
S10: Command Center, Cultural Districting Offices
S12: Cross Cultural Reference Library
S12/C10: Public Service Ethos

Total techs: 7C + 19E + 2E always on tree + 5B + 12M + 22P + 5P always on tree + 7S
Total of 72 techs plus the 7 always on the tree, from levels 1 through 12.


List of Techs that I did not have on the tree this game: (I may be missing some, but I don’t think so). Maybe 1 or 2 at most.

C10: Holistic Planning
E4: Class 1 Shield
E5: Improved Thrusters
E10: Hard Beam, Class 2 Shield
M12: Thetaplex Scanning Array
P5: Fighter Armor
P7: Anionic Energy Warhead

Total Techs Missing From Tree: 8

So I got 72 of 80 techs that were not automatic.


Now, with my “Techs” value set to 43.5, there were a few changes to which techs I got (of course, because it’s random).
The following Techs were added to the list:

C10: Holistic Planning, E4: Class 1 Shield, E5: Improved Thrusters, E10: Hard Beam, E10: Class 2 Shields, M12: Thetaplex Scanning Array. A total of 6 techs added that I missed the first time. P7: Anionic Energy Warhead

The following techs were not on the tree, but that were on the first one:

E4: Hand Blaster, E5: Fusion Cannon, E5: Personal Deflector, E9: Continuous Fusion Cannon, E10: Laser Assault Rifle, B8/M6: Interorganizational Evolution, M8: Mass Driver Mini 2, M9: Fusion Miniaturization 1, S5: Psy-Ops, S9: Research Labs

A total of 9 techs not on the tree, but 7 more that were. So 2 less techs total.

So I got 70 of 80 techs that were not automatic.


Finally, with my “Techs” value set to 0.
The following techs were on the tree that weren’t on the original tree (many of these were also on tree #2):

C10: Holistic Planning, C10: Broader Usage, E4: Class 1 Shield, E10: Hard Beam, E10: Class 2 Shield, M12: Thetaplex Scanning Array, P5: Fighter Armor. A total of 7 techs that were not on the first tree.

The following techs were missing from that tree:

E4: Continuous Laser, E5: Personal Deflectors, E9: Continuous Quark Cannon, M4: Mass Driver Mini 1, M8: Laser Mini 2, M8: Mass Driver Mini 2, P6: Deep Extraction Mining, S9: Espionage Training Requirement. A total of 8 techs that were missing from that tree, but 7 that were on it and not on the first. So 1 less tech in total.

Thus I got 71 of 80 techs on this tree, that were not automatic.

The number of techs I got out of 79 non automatic techs, were 72, 70, and 71. These are so incredibly close that the difference is clearly due to randomness. If the jump down from 72 to 70 had been significant when I reduced the “Techs” value from 100 to 43.5, it should not have gone back up again when I further reduced techs to 0.


Conclusion: Modifying the techs value in the racemodifiers.txt file has no effect on the number of techs that appear in your tree.




The next experiment, modifying the creativity ability of my Psilons down to Imitative (the worst level), and seeing what I got on my tree with “Techs” value of 0, 43.5 and 100.

For Imitative Psilons, with a Techs value of 100, I got the following techs on my tree:

C3/M2: Interchangeable Policy Structures
C4: Advanced Policy Theory
C8: Securities Board
C8/M5: Astro University
C10: Broader Usage, Holistic Planning

Energy:
E4: Autofire Laser, Armor Piercing Laser
E5: Quark Cannon, Fusion Cannon, Personal Deflector
E6: Fusion Gun, Matter Conversion Module (always on tree)
E7: Autofire Fighter Laser
E8: Fighter Fusion Cannon
E9: Armor Piercing Quark Cannon, Continuous Quark Cannon, Enveloping Fusion Cannon, Continuous Fusion Cannon
E10: Laser Assault Rifle, Hard Beam, Class 2 Shield
E10/M8: Planetary Shield Generator (always in tree)
E12: Phaser Assault Rifle

Biology:
B2: Hydroponic Farms
B5: Soil Enrichment,
B8/M6: Interorganizational Evolution

Mathematics:
M4: Laser Mini 1,
M8: Laser Mini 2, Catalyst Design
M9: Sublight Drives, Fusion Mini 1,
M10/S10: Netizenship
M12: Thetaplex Scanning Array, ECCM 2

Physical:
P3: Armor Penetrating Fighter Mass Driver, Armor Piercing Nuclear Warhead
P4: Autofire Mass Driver
P5: Marine, Missile Armor
P6: Cruiser (always on tree), Deep Extraction Mining
P7: Mobilization Center (always on tree), Spaceport (always on tree), Anionic Energy Warhead
P10: Rail Gun, Enviro Suits, Structural Shielding
P11: Automated Factories, Materials Processor (always in tree), Medium Armor
P11/B8: Sanitation Infrastructure, Planetology Complex
P11/E8: Battle Cruiser (always on tree)
P12: Heavy Mount

Social:
S8: Monuments
S9: Advanced Research Labs, Espionage Training Requirement
S12: Cross Cultural Reference Library
S12/C10: Public Service Ethos

That’s a total of 53 out of 80 techs that were in my tree this time, of the ones that are not automatic. This is a massive difference between the 72, 70 and 71 I got the first time.

When I changed my “Techs” value to 43.5 but kept my Creativity down at Imitative, I got a total of 56 out of the 80 techs that were not automatic. I will not list them, suffice it to say that many of the techs on the previous list were missing, and many new others were present.

When I changed my techs value to 0, but kept my Creativity down at Imitative, I got a total of 57 out of the 80 techs that were not automatic. Again, I won’t bother to list them all.



So in the three games I did with Original Creativity I had a total of 70 + 71 + 72 or 213 out of a possible 240 techs in my tree, or 88.75%. (For techs of level 12 or less)
This is probably accurate to within a few percent for probabilistic error.

In the three games I did with Imitative Creativity I got a total of 53 + 56 + 57 or 156 out of a possible 240 techs in my tree, or 65% (For techs of level 12 or less).

This is again probably accurate within a few percent for probabilistic errors.

Therefore, Creativity skill has a LARGE effect on the percentage of techs that you will find in your tree. I found a difference of 23.75% change in the percentage of techs I got, when going from the lowest to the highest creativity levels. I feel this is close enough to the 22.5% value that many people thought it should be, based on a gain of 7.5% per creativity level that people found in the game files.

Thus, I propose that each level of creativity skill increases the chance of getting each tech by about 7.5%. I don’t know what the base level is, it may vary for each race, and I think it’s around 65% for Psilons. (Possibly the base is 66% for all races, as that seems to be the value that comes up in the racemodifiers.txt when you add together the “Techs” value for each race with 7.5 added per creativity level. Except for Ithkul, which are an exception)


We now need to test this for other races, and possibly for some intermediary value of “Techs”. I will leave this for another time.


Further, I highly recommend taking Original Creativity as a race pick, as this will prove valuable in increasing the chance that you will get important techs such as Soil Enrichment, Automated Factories, Advanced Research Labs, and so on.

I hope this is helpful, and proves a valuable piece of information to the Master of Orion 3 playing community.

visage
03-08-2003, 04:35 AM
I did some similar tests, avoiding 0 and 100 since those are typically special-cased, and reached the same conclusions.

von Neufeld
03-08-2003, 04:49 AM
Great work! :up:

von Neufeld
03-08-2003, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by visage
I did some similar tests, avoiding 0 and 100 since those are typically special-cased, and reached the same conclusions.
What race did you use?

Breschau
03-08-2003, 06:07 AM
Alexfrog - I don't know if there's a time limit on editting your posts, but you may wanna edit yours slightly - you say "kept my creativity down at Original" a few times in the last part of the post, when I'm pretty sure you mean "kept it down at Imitative".

Thanks for doing the testing though, good to know.

Player_0194
03-08-2003, 09:17 AM
Something just occured to my that might explain why the harvesters get a higher tech percentenge in the racemodifyers file.

What if:

The information in the file is correct but only as a refrence. Suppose the programers originally used this table as the source for the calculation but then hard coded it in once they got the balance right. But the Harvesters initially don't seem to fit, why should they get drasticly more techs?

And then it hit me:

The harvesters get the ANTARAN BACKGROUND option by default! Think about it the description of this special says that this bounus brings something like 20% greater chance of discovering antaran technology. I cant think of a single time that i have ever "found" a technology from the antarans. Suppose that this option really just boosts the number of techs available for research. Then the harvesters would fit!

Or I could be totally wrong:

Has anybody recorded instances of "finding" antaran technology if so then it would seem to discount my theory that the antaran option gives more available techs.

In any case this is something to look into.

Chinese Tourist
03-08-2003, 09:51 AM
Interesting hypothesis.

I thought Antaran Background meant greater chance to find the Xs. That might be unbalancing but Xs are pretty damn hard to find anyway.

In fact I *have* discovered Antaran technology, but as customized Cynoid, and I believe it was a random event - that game I had random occurences up to more.

It uses the same icon as Antaran Expedition news. You surely are wondering what it was. Well...


It wasn't "was" anything :p :D It only further propelled my research toward a certain tech, pollution processors in my case.

Alexfrog
03-08-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Breschau
you say "kept my creativity down at Original" a few times in the last part of the post, when I'm pretty sure you mean "kept it down at Imitative".


Editing done ;)

Alexfrog
03-08-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Player_0194
The harvesters get the ANTARAN BACKGROUND option by default! Think about it the description of this special says that this bounus brings something like 20% greater chance of discovering antaran technology.

I believe that this gives a bonus to finding the X's through either expeditions (so it finds them faster and thus you lose less ships and have less chancethe mission will fail), and also it may give a bonus to finding the X's in other ways, like defeating a guardian.

So it basically speeds up the X win

Unknown Alpha
03-08-2003, 11:47 AM
Thank you, Alexfrog. This was very interesting, especially because I wanted to tweak down creativity in my next game. Now I surely won´t do it!

visage
03-08-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by von Neufeld
What race did you use?

Those tests were with Meklar, Psilons, humans, all with frobbed Tech and TechKnow in the files.

Oh, and from game-experience I'm fairly certain that the harvesters don't get a higher proportion of techs than other races by defafault.

Tyrac
03-08-2003, 02:49 PM
Awesome.

dadacp
03-08-2003, 04:22 PM
I tested Humans [with unchanged stats, only the mod to include levels in tech names]. I took maximum creativity, refused to trade techs, and didn't explore. I went until level 15 was visible because I didn't see any level 14 Physical techs. Total techs learned or available to learn were: C8+E25+B5+M13+P27+S8= 86 techs, including automatic techs. From what I read above, that means I missed only 1 tech as creative humans (plus 2 level 0 techs that I know I missed because someone offered to trade them to me). I had many positive overruns and got a couple of techs through special events.

I have the feeling that creativity etc. only influences what techs one can research, not what techs one gets for free at the beginning of the game, but I haven't tested enough to be sure.

I realized that I couldn't test the same as Evon, because Evon can't choose the highest creativity. Playing as Evon with highest possible creativity I'm always missing lots of techs. So here's one big difference between Humans and Evons--Humans can get a lot more techs than Evons. The population growth is the same for the two races, by the way.

Trystan_UZI
03-09-2003, 03:12 AM
I would suggest speeding tech up by reducing the points needed between levels., so that it takes alot less tech points to reach lvl 50. That way, you'll get a full view of all the tech tree instead of a small part of it.

kalbear
03-09-2003, 04:52 AM
I modified the creative stat at original to be 'techknow +=2000".

I figured that ought to prove anything, one way or another. Sure enough, all techs were gotten. Not a single one missing from the tree, at least through level 20.

So yeah, Creative is a pretty good pick for that. For the overrun thing, not so much, but for getting more techs, definitely.

dadacp
03-09-2003, 06:19 AM
I played as creative humans for a while with a leader who had "cost overrun +5". That was a mistake. I thought I might have more positive overruns as well, but I had very few postive overruns. It was like taking a major hit to creativity.

Sky Keeper
03-09-2003, 10:57 AM
tested original/adaptive Klackons - 89%/66% L12 or less tech got.
Maybe a hardcoded value of 66% for all races?

Alexfrog
03-09-2003, 07:17 PM
cool, so it seems like people are having similar results with other races, and it looks to be hardcoded at 66% for the lowest creativity level...

We'll see how further testing affects this

RobNelson
03-09-2003, 08:24 PM
OK, fess up. One of you is going to use this as you dissertation, aren't you? :D

Seriously, good job Alexfrog and others. :up:

Mork
03-09-2003, 08:56 PM
Hey Alex keep up the good work, man you must be putting hours into this game. Are you getting paid or what? (you should, you saved the game for me)

Alexfrog
03-09-2003, 09:47 PM
hehe,

I am kindof annoyed by the bad AI, so I am spending more time testing stuff about the game than actually playing it ;)

I find it fun to learn how it works....

RobNelson
03-09-2003, 09:51 PM
Are you talking about enemy AI? Do you MP at all?

I find it fun to learn how it works....
Then it's a good thing for you that the documentation is holes in it. :D

QuantumPion
03-09-2003, 11:26 PM
ir's sad that people have to go through so much work and waste so much time figuring out game mechanics simply because the manual is so poor and the developers don't talk :sour:

thanks anyway, though :)

Alexfrog
03-10-2003, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by RobNelson
Are you talking about enemy AI? Do you MP at all?


Then it's a good thing for you that the documentation is holes in it. :D

By Bad AI I meant enemy empire AI.

The planetary AI is good, and MP is good.
I havent relaly been able to do much MP yet...

I wish the documentation was good. I would much rather learn how things work by reading it than by wasting 5 hours experimenting, but I'll do what I have to..

furryeifle
03-10-2003, 03:49 AM
Heh, c'mon now alex...lets be honest...

I know, and i'm pretty sure you know that ppl like us would tear the game apart and do repetitive/invasive tests for hours on it even if the documentation were very very good :).

Alexfrog
03-10-2003, 03:10 PM
well yeah, but it would be a lot easier ;)

it would be more "testing what strategy worked well" instead of "testing to see how the game works in the first place"

Rickhan5
03-10-2003, 03:36 PM
As the Silicoid, the "discovered Antaran technology" came up and gave me, Thetaplex Scanning Array", lv12.
At first glace i thought WOW i found an "X". But i did not at closer examination.

Thx, for the work u did compiling this info.
It just confirms my suspicions about the Creativity settings.

My only question now is whether a player can work through the Tech tree faster at imitative, lowest setting rather than Creative highest setting.

kalbear
03-10-2003, 03:39 PM
No - working through the tech tree happens at the same pace, regardless of your creativity setting. You might get more techs faster, but you'll end up at the same tech level.

Alexfrog
03-12-2003, 06:02 PM
So creativity is in effect a bonus to the %age of techs that you will get in your tree....

Yet another thing poorly documented by the game

Alexfrog
03-13-2003, 08:11 PM
There were comments/questions relating to this topic, so I thought I would return it to the 1st page so I could reference it.

Cobra77
03-14-2003, 01:36 AM
Good post Alex, Thanks for the data.

von Neufeld
03-19-2003, 01:20 PM
***BUMP***

Wayeth
10-09-2003, 07:01 PM
In relation to this variable:
Someone mentioned something about the Antaran X's. Has anyone checked for things like:

Chance to find an X?
Mean time to find a destination?
Mean time to research an X?

It would be interesting if this variable impacted Antaran tech as opposed to...

Wait a sec, how about 'chance to find a tech during an invasion'??

It would make sense for the Ithkul to have the highest (they, in fact, take over the people), and the Psilon (near pacifists) to have such a low value...

Can anyone post the whole list of this variable by race, and then we could correlate the numbers based on aggressiveness?

Wyatt

Strifeguard
10-09-2003, 10:13 PM
Alex Frog's findings were all pre-patch. According to the Patch thread, the effect of creativity was tinkered with by the patch.

Does this mean it's over-all effect was exagerated more? Or does this mean that the variable alone was all that changed? Since QSI doesn't come here anymore, we'll never know.

Until someone can run Alex Frog's kinds of tests again post-patch, the data in this thread is outdated and no longer reliable.

haniblecter
10-10-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by dadacp
I tested Humans [with unchanged stats, only the mod to include levels in tech names]. I took maximum creativity, refused to trade techs, and didn't explore. I went until level 15 was visible because I didn't see any level 14 Physical techs. Total techs learned or available to learn were: C8+E25+B5+M13+P27+S8= 86 techs, including automatic techs. From what I read above, that means I missed only 1 tech as creative humans (plus 2 level 0 techs that I know I missed because someone offered to trade them to me). I had many positive overruns and got a couple of techs through special events.

I have the feeling that creativity etc. only influences what techs one can research, not what techs one gets for free at the beginning of the game, but I haven't tested enough to be sure.

I realized that I couldn't test the same as Evon, because Evon can't choose the highest creativity. Playing as Evon with highest possible creativity I'm always missing lots of techs. So here's one big difference between Humans and Evons--Humans can get a lot more techs than Evons. The population growth is the same for the two races, by the way.


You gotta remember that most humaniods have inherrant bonuses to overruns...that would explain those numbers.






BUT IS ANYONE ELSE WORRIED??? I think MOO3's "subterannean" race pick has been uncovered.


If you know wth im takling about, then you're old skool. ;)

DavidByron
10-10-2003, 10:51 PM
Chance to find an X?

I did a thread on Antaran Xpeditions including a pretty reasonable look at the time taken and what made a difference (and what didn't).

Needs a lot more testing. The main barrier to an early X is the huge HUGE distance to get to the stage where you start looking. My recommendation for Antaran Xpeditions would be to send out some tiny cheap ship around the time you have Warp 3 --- just to try and gauge how far it is. Then when you get some spare production send out 5 armadas of tiny cheap ships with Warp 5-7. They'll do the trick even if they might not be as efficient.

haniblecter
10-13-2003, 10:34 AM
Research labs make a world of difference when sending out expeditions. It's not tested, but for some reason it's something I've observed.

Hyndis
10-13-2003, 03:41 PM
I'd be really impressed if anyone could find the variable that gives the chance that a technology is captured upon invasion, or what the formula is, or how the thing works...


But as for finding X's, I just do a cheesey method. :D

I always play as humans, and that means that most people like me, so early on, unless I start next to harvesters, I tend to be at peace with everyone around me. And so once I hit turn 50 or so, when I've colonized all of the planets around me, then I start to fill in the red planets, and just about everything else I can cram a colony ship onto.

And the instant I get research labs done is when I start building exploration ships.

Sure, they're slow, but I build a hundred or so frigates, and keep sending out armada after armada. Once I have about 10 of them out, then that always gets me at least 4 X's, even if it takes a little while...okay...a long while. A few hundred turns. But I like turning out huge hordes of tiny ships with labs on them, and that works plenty to getting those X's just by simple swarming tactics. :D

DavidByron
10-14-2003, 12:07 AM
Research labs make a world of difference when sending out expeditions. It's not tested, but for some reason it's something I've observed.

When I tested it I was not able to see any advantage to research labs. Or weapons. Or size of ship. Or detection equipment. And hardly anything for the racial pic.

DavidByron
10-14-2003, 12:09 AM
I'd be really impressed if anyone could find the variable that gives the chance that a technology is captured upon invasion

I was under the impression it was simply the proportion of the uniring? that's not from testing I just thought maybe some QS source had said something like that....

Cobra77
10-14-2003, 08:47 PM
My recommendation for Antaran Xpeditions would be to send out some tiny cheap ship around the time you have Warp 3 --- just to try and gauge how far it is. Then when you get some spare production send out 5 armadas of tiny cheap ships with Warp 5-7. They'll do the trick even if they might not be as efficient.
If only there was a way to pick which ships are sent on an expedition rather then having the computer do it.
"General we are being attacked, Where are all our best warships?" "Ummm well you see sir I sent them out on a 100 year expedition, But don't worry we still have 30 or 40 of these frigate sized lab ships to fight with":eek: :eek: :cry:

DavidByron
10-14-2003, 09:13 PM
I got the impression that it chose the ships from ship classes that were created first (lower ship class ID?)

Lennier
10-15-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Cobra77
If only there was a way to pick which ships are sent on an expedition rather then having the computer do it.
"General we are being attacked, Where are all our best warships?" "Ummm well you see sir I sent them out on a 100 year expedition, But don't worry we still have 30 or 40 of these frigate sized lab ships to fight with":eek: :eek: :cry:
Someone came up with the workaround of

1) Scrapping all the ships in your reserves except for the 18 you want to send on the Xpedition.

2) Sending the Xpedition from the Victory tab.

3) Unscrapping all the ships from step 1.

I haven't tried it; I looks like it would take a bit of time and my turns are already too long as it is. And you must not hit the turn button between steps 1 & 3 or else all your reserves will be scrapped.

dkass
10-15-2003, 08:14 PM
Somewhere there is a thread in this forum that works out most of the details on how the ships are selected. The basic fact I remember is that it prefers recon ships (I think it was determined it is building a recon "armada" [or whatever size you send]). Thus have enough of the expedition design in reserve and you only have to scrap your other recon designs. If it has multiple types to chose from, it tends to take some of each (I don't recall the proportion, but its more or less the same as the ships in your reserve).

Cobra77
10-15-2003, 10:48 PM
Someone came up with the workaround of

1) Scrapping all the ships in your reserves except for the 18 you want to send on the Xpedition.

2) Sending the Xpedition from the Victory tab.

3) Unscrapping all the ships from step 1.
I just tried it and it doesn't work.
I had 41 Carriers and 47 LR Battleships all scraped. I had dozens of recon ships and over 200 smaller IF and LR ships for it to pick from that were not scrapped. I created 4 expedition armadas and looked at the ships in reserve... only 17 of the LR ships I had scrapped were left but most of the unscrapped ships were still there. :(
Man what a dumb design decision it was to let the computer pick the expedition ships. :mad:

Hyndis
10-16-2003, 03:03 AM
Well, in theorey, it would be easy to let the AI pick the ships to send off on a quest for the X's...just only send ships with labs on them. And don't let any ships without labs in those fleets. And it makes sense, too, because a ship without any researchers/archaeologists/scientists/fancy toys on it won't do a very good job of finding anything. So why send it in the first place?

Unless maybe as an escort...but then, I make all of my explorer ships unarmed, and they seem to do just fine....

Lennier
10-16-2003, 10:26 AM
It was a poor design decision, especially considering they had a UI for picking TFs. I know I'm not the first one to say this, but they should have just linked to that screen with a TF mission of "Xpedition;" the player could click the "autobuild" button to see the AI's choice of ships or just choose the ships manually.

Sorry to hear that the proposed workaroud doesn't work; sort of makes me glad I didn't waste my time trying it.;)

dkass
10-17-2003, 03:13 AM
Cobra77, that is very odd. I've never seen it behave like that before. Check to see how many recon ships you had left sending the forces. I admit that I've never tried to create an expedition when I did not have enough recon to fill it, but when I create expeditions it only chooses the recon I haven't scrapped.

The other trick (that takes significantly more work) is to deploy all the ships you do not want in the armadas. You will have to disband the fleets you build (but can do that the same turn you formed them).

I agree that the design is bad, but at least for me, the workaround is fairly easy and works well. Hyndis, the problem is in what to do if no ships have labs (or not enough ships have labs). It isn't clear they're useful in the expedition (my experience is that they usually only shorten it by single digit percentages).

Cobra77
10-17-2003, 11:41 AM
The other trick (that takes significantly more work) is to deploy all the ships you do not want in the armadas. You will have to disband the fleets you build (but can do that the same turn you formed them).
Yes I have done this....You have to pray you are not attacked for as long as the disbanded ships take to get back to reserves. Makes for some very nervous moments. :p

Cobra77, that is very odd. I've never seen it behave like that before. Check to see how many recon ships you had left sending the forces. I admit that I've never tried to create an expedition when I did not have enough recon to fill it, but when I create expeditions it only chooses the recon I haven't scrapped.
Thanks for the info. You are right, It seems to work as long as you have enough recon ships not scrapped. I scrapped all my ships except recon and recon-lab ships and created 5 armadas, It took all the non lab recon ships in the first 4 created then took the lab ships in the 5th. (you would think it would take the lab ships first but oh well...)
I also tried this with all ships scrapped except the lab ships but it still took the scrapped recon ships first.:rolleyes:
I tried not scrapping anything and making 5 armadas but it hardly took any of the recons, It took mostly LR ships...strange looks like it will take recon first as long as everything is scrapped.
Thanks for the info everyone. :up:

DavidByron
11-23-2003, 10:45 AM
"Hup"
to bring this in line with the stickied threads as far as last-updated date goes.

Longspur
11-25-2003, 08:18 AM
Well, as Strifeguard has pointed out, all this wonderful research is pre-patch.

But unless someone comes along and does this massive research all over again, here's one thing I am firmly convinced about: "Original" creativity is a very valuable pick.

I play Evon and Nommo, and sometimes Eoladi. Evon, of course, can not take "Original" as a pick. In the stickied race selection thread there is a lot of discussion about why Evons seem to much stronger than Humans, and do Humans have some secret thing to balance this. Well, gosh.

I have had to play around some horrendous holes in the tech tree while playing Evon. Imagine, for just one example, missing shields while the Ithkul who are pounding you have Class III shields. It makes a bit of difference, you bet.

(Yeah, you've gotta polish your trading skills. See the diplomacy thread.)

All my "research" is done one -- very slow -- game at a time, so take this for what it is worth, but I highly recommend the value of this pick. -- Longspur

Awsric Armitage
01-22-2004, 11:26 AM
And yet another bump to the front page.
Bump.

Tarhalindur
05-23-2005, 05:57 PM
Sticky!

BOOMP!

Colt374
04-10-2006, 12:43 AM
BUMP!

This info IS pre-patch, but may still be viable. (See first post) Someone has to test this again, (I may if I find the time).

Colt.