ECM and ECCM

[StefanIII]

After reading the spreadsheets I've found out that ECM and cloaking tech both modify the same in game parameter for stealth called "ecm". ECM and Cloaks give various multipliers to ecm. ie ECM 1 x1.10 while ECM V is x2.20, the cloak is x2.20 and phased cloak give 3.30, ghost gives 7.7.

You can put multiple ECM one one ship as well as multiple cloaks as long as they're different. The question then is, how do they add?
1. Does it just take the highest cloak and highest ECM?

2. Does it just multiply all the multipliers together? This is somewhat strange now because the lower level ECM techs are much better than higher level techs. Specifically, ECM II is the best ECM per size. For example, ECM II is size 20 and is *1.35 while ECM V is size 90 and *2.2. Now if you put on 4 ECM II with total size 80 they would offer *3.3 ecm, considerably higher than a single ECM V.

3. If the cloaking bonus just adds, then 4 ECM II = 1 + 4x0.35 = 2.4 which is still better than ECM V.

So either the ECMs are added in some strange way, or they don't stack at all, or the whole system is goofed up and ECM II is actually the best there is.

Also nobody seems to have any clue as to how effective stealth is. I've fought a guardian before without even detecting him at point blank range and he whooped my ass. On the other hand, every single attempt at making a stealthed taskforce has ended in failure. I cannot seem to make a task force that is at the very least difficult to detect. Can someone explain if ship size is important? Type of weapons? What range basic detection is (ie no stealth, no detection)? What does the ecm modifier actually do?

[Llama8]

Well, I don't know much, but this is what I do know:

You can put multiple ECM/ECCM on a ship (when I auto-design a large-ish scout/recon, the AI puts ~4 ECM/ECCM on).

The higher level ECM/ECCM works at greater range, so level 1 only works at short range, level two at medium range, 3 at long range... I would assume from that, that if you put on 4 ECM2s, that the enemy would have significant difficulty in hitting your ship at short/medium range, but if it stayed at long range, it wouldn't have that problem. So, if you can get your 4 ECM2 ship into shrot/medium range and stay there, then yes, it would seem to be worth doing that, but if your enemy can keep at long range, then those ECM units aren't going to be doing much for you, whereas the ECM5 would.

[Super Freak]

Not only is ECC unclear, but also ECCM and other scanning devices. I usualy create 2 specilised Reconensence ships. 1 type with ECCM (takes up the whole ship) and 1 type files with all detection long range scanning + cloak effects.

I realy would like to know if anyone else understands.

[Xentax]

You can put multiple of ECM/ECCM I know, and possibly of the cloaking series as well.

It just stacks.

So if one ECM I gives a 1.1 effect, 2 ECM I gives a 1.1^2 effect, or 1.21, etc.

Sensors like the Focus Detection Array work similarly. If one reduces effective range to 70%, two will reduce it to 49%, three to 34.3%, and so on.

How they play against each other (you have scanners, they have ECM, and vice versa, etc.) is where things go into "I don't know" land.

[ElZoido]

Oh allmighty QS, please help! :D

[velkoris]

Stealthing, for the most part, doesn't work very well as the computer will fire missiles even when it can't see you.

Your ships will do the same thing if you enter combat in 'watch' mode.

[visage]

Originally posted by ElZoido
Oh allmighty QS, please help! :D

Alan forwarded the questions on this subject that I had to Tom Hughes, but I haven't heard back from him.

I've invested something like a dozen hours into testing how visual detection range works, and I've got nothing to show for it. I'm giving up on that and moving on to the rest of the combat mechanics, and hope to have some good hard data on to-hit mechanisms tomorrow.

[Acenoid]

they have already added it to the buglist (the missile issue)

that ecm stuff sounds nice have to try it out and do some test battles

[dac61]

Actually, I think the ECM and Cloak stuff does work, to some extent. I made a stealth task force (DDs with ECM 2 and Cloaks) and attacked a planet. The planet for whatever reason fired it's missiles at my LRA TF instead of my IF TF (go figure). So I decided to sneak my stealth task force up close. The first wave of missiles shot right by them (off to the side a ways). The second wave of missiles, however, must've passed a little too close as they made a right angle turn passing my stealth TF and slammed right into it.

"Missiles inbound sir, active PD?"
"No, that'll disengage the cloak. As you were"
"Aye Sir"
"They're turning, they've picked us up Sir"
"Drop Cloak, charge PD"
"Too La ::BOOM::"

Fun to watch, anyway.

[BoydofZINJ]

i know i had a thread about this some where... let me look it up... hmmmm

this has been asked many times... this is a fuzzy part of the game... but still just as enjoyable... not to know everything!

[BoydofZINJ]

I posted this else where... but since it is part of this topic i share what i have observed about cloak, ecm, eccm, and scanners.

*************
*************

From observations... ECM and ECCM effects your entire task force. cloak technology and ecm work well together... for an entire task force.

From my observations... ECM and ECCM do cancel each other out. As a result putting equal amounts of eccm and ecm within the same task force is the same as putting nothing there. If you have 10 ECM IV and 11 ECCM IV then in reality you have 1 ECCM. I am not entirely sure. However, I have played around with ECCM and ecm and cloak.

Here is what I do. I make 1 task force as a pure ECCM fleet with multiple ECCM and best sensors. (This task force is best as a LR beam task force - since ECCM effect beams most of all). I make my IF and carrier task force as stealthy ecm and cloak vessels. I also slow down my stealthy ecm and cloak tfs and let my visible eccm group be fast... to scout out the enemy. Typically, my eccm group gets the pounding of a lifetime... but they tend to detect enemy stealth ships within moments. Once you detect your enemy stealth task force... let your stealth and cloaked carrier and if groups fire away.

Playing with a pure ecm and pure cloak atack group (no eccms whats so ever)... I was able to kill 4 new orion task forces and several orbitals before my main capital ships were even fired upon. Using the same number of ships and a different game and the same design... but placing eccm instead of cloak and ecm... my capital ships were shot upon instantly from the get go. (luckily i was in single player mode and had a few eccm fleets and ecm fleets in the ready to do this grand experiment over orion).

I have experimented with eccm and ecm on the same task force... and it seems every ship is hidden from me and they almost always get the first shot! This is what leads me to my eccm and ecm observations.


As I pointed out, this is from my own observations. I have experimented with pure cloak and ecm fleets and mixed fleets and pure eccm fleets.

Plain and simple... having both eccm and ecm seem to cancel each other out. It does make sense. ECM creates background and interference noise to make target lock by computers much harder. ECCM is a way to eliminate background noise and interference to find an enemy ship easier. As a result, if you create background interference it would make sense that it would make targets harder to spot as well?

I remember this one game where it seemed I can never find an enemy unless I was at point blank range... and i had to follow the laser and missile and fighter launchers to guesstimate where they were (this was my mixed ecm and eccm fleets).

I also remembered my last game with Klackons where my ecm and cloaks fleets so well hidden than even the new orions had trouble hitting me.

I also remembered, that my eccm fleets seemed to spot every fleet within a few moments...

Observation only.

Can I "prove" anything?

no!

:sour:

However, let me ask you... for those who use an equal amount of eccm and ecm per ship... how fast did you find an enemy? How fast did the enemy fire at you? Under a minute? Longer than a minute? Instantly... all the time?

Now as for an entire task force versus not an entire task force debate. This is very debateable. However, let us assume my observations are correct that ecm and eccm cancel each other out. Let us also assume it only works for per ship. Let us have an armada of 17 cloaked and heavy (multiple) ecm ships... with this armada of 17 ships... it has a single ship with super eccm. This would mean it can spot any enemy ship within a few moments... and most enemy ships will be able to spot the single lone target. The sad, but true, tale is... once you can lock and id a single ship within a task force... your entire task force is subject to being able to get locked on and fired. Thus having any eccm and ecm would be pointless if 1 ship was different than the fleet it was in. Afterall, why have 17 super hard to detect ships waste space when a single "friendly" ship will give them away?

:mad: :eek: :weird:

[Super Freak]

Man, you have opened my eyes!

So If I understand you correctly the following stratagy should work according to your theory:

1 Reconensence Armada filled with 18 Reconensence ships (Cloak + Long range scanners + ECCM + pointdefence)

1 IF Armada filled with 12 I.F (cloak + ecc + missles), 4 escort (cloak + ecc + Pointdefence), 2 reconencense (Cloak + Scanners)

1 Long range armada filled with 16 LR (Cloak + ECC + Scanner + Spinal Mount ), 2 reconencence (lcloak + long range scan)

According to your theory,
- the long range armada should now be able to close in undetected (due to all the cloak and ECC)
- The I.F remain undetected and can safely fire all its missles without being detected.
- The Reconencence will be detected but able to shoot down the enemy missles and fighters.

[BoydofZINJ]

Originally posted by Super Freak

According to your theory,
- the long range armada should now be able to close in undetected (due to all the cloak and ECC)
- The I.F remain undetected and can safely fire all its missles without being detected.
- The Reconencence will be detected but able to shoot down the enemy missles and fighters.

That is the theory... yes... cloak and heavy ecm should help

Remember a few things, though. Randomly you will get detected... the closer you are to an enemy fleet the faster you get detected (atleast from experience).

[Serondal]

Lemme just point something out. ECCM on is ship is like wearing a massive red flag that says. "HERE I AM COME GET ME!" It lets the enemy fleets pick you out VERY easily. Lemme explain. ECCM is like active radar or sonar. You gotta ping the enemy vessels to get a lock on them, but that ping also gives you away. ECM is obviously there to lower your signuture in space so that enemy computers are not able to pick you up. Cloak is a visual thing. The idea here is to lower your sig as LOW as possible for the entire battle group. You described having a cloak-eccm fleet. That would be a waste of space and money. What the NEED to have is the ability to turn your ECM , ECCM, and CLOAK on and off. This way your ship could jam sometimes whilst cloak, and other times he could go around pinging space. MY suggestion is that you create fleets full of ECM and CLOAK and leave ECCM the heck out, then make a fleet with ECCM and keep them away from your stealth fleet. Also note, firing your weapons SHOULD give your position away (But I've noticed it doesn't in game. I've been fired on and not been able to shoot back. ) If they did this the right way ECM would lower their ability to scan your ships in a distance, and cloak would lower their ability to visually detect you when they're closer. Hence having both would allow you to slip around undetched. If both of these values do infact effect the ECM value then it doesn't work that way :(

[Serondal]

Another thing. You should try making a stealth fleet without any scanners in it. Thoes might be giving you away too O.o You never know it's worth a try. Myself I don't screw around with cloaking. I just pack my picket line ships with ECCM and make them light up the enemy as fast as possible so I can use insanely over whelming force on them :) That's just my style

[Llama8]

Originally posted by Serondal
Also note, firing your weapons SHOULD give your position away (But I've noticed it doesn't in game. I've been fired on and not been able to shoot back. )

Firing weapons does give your position away (or at least it gives the NO ships positions away). Just because you know what area of space a beam weapon was fired from doesn't mean that you have a sufficiently good lock to fire your weapons (although it would be nice to be able to randomly fire your weapons, range permitting, into the area & possibly hit enemy vessels, which would randomly force them to decloak/give you a better chance of hitting them again).
Since weapons fire is computer controlled (thats why there aren't any racial modifiers affecting space combat), the ship needs a solid lock on a target to fire, not just a "oh, it's over there somewhere".

[haniblecter]

Originally posted by Serondal
Lemme just point something out. ECCM on is ship is like wearing a massive red flag that says. "HERE I AM COME GET ME!" It lets the enemy fleets pick you out VERY easily. Lemme explain. ECCM is like active radar or sonar. You gotta ping the enemy vessels to get a lock on them, but that ping also gives you away. ECM is obviously there to lower your signuture in space so that enemy computers are not able to pick you up. Cloak is a visual thing. The idea here is to lower your sig as LOW as possible for the entire battle group. You described having a cloak-eccm fleet. That would be a waste of space and money. What the NEED to have is the ability to turn your ECM , ECCM, and CLOAK on and off. This way your ship could jam sometimes whilst cloak, and other times he could go around pinging space. MY suggestion is that you create fleets full of ECM and CLOAK and leave ECCM the heck out, then make a fleet with ECCM and keep them away from your stealth fleet. Also note, firing your weapons SHOULD give your position away (But I've noticed it doesn't in game. I've been fired on and not been able to shoot back. ) If they did this the right way ECM would lower their ability to scan your ships in a distance, and cloak would lower their ability to visually detect you when they're closer. Hence having both would allow you to slip around undetched. If both of these values do infact effect the ECM value then it doesn't work that way :(

The real world instance of ECM is just jamming. Jamming someones radar with interference doesnt give away your position...cause they're jammed. ECCM is some mysterious new technology that QS made up.


I think its been postulated and ive seen a few times, that the different levels of ECM/ECCM effect different ranges. Level 1 effects close in range, while level 5 ECM the furthest. Sounds dumb, but how many times have you started a battle seeing the enemy, but as soon as you start closing the distance, he dissappears.

There's another thread on this topic with hard numbers.

[Llama8]

Originally posted by haniblecter
I think its been postulated and ive seen a few times, that the different levels of ECM/ECCM effect different ranges. Level 1 effects close in range, while level 5 ECM the furthest. Sounds dumb, but how many times have you started a battle seeing the enemy, but as soon as you start closing the distance, he dissappears.

There's another thread on this topic with hard numbers.

I think the thing with the increased ranges is because the more advanced techs would have more powerful jamming equipment, so they would be able to jam (insert amusing Spaceballs sequence here) ships from further away.

I think that the instances of the enemy being visible initially is that the graphics engine doesn't get the "fog of war" in place quickly enough at the start of combat.

[Blogger2003]

Just to clarify real world applications on jamming (as the game concepts of ECM and ECCM are drawn from real world concepts).

Jamming is a red flag. Yes the radios or radars that are being jammed are useless, as they can not discriminate the weaker signals they are intended to receive and process.

Jammers by design are very high output devices. There are (passive) receivers that are designed to direction find (DF) jammers. Then the 155 or 203mm rounds start falling and end of jammer. Even directional jammers can be detected from other directions because of side-lobes.

It is much like the difference between a flashlight on a battlefield and the light from a lighthouse on the New England shore.

This concept applies to any "active" system for detection, locating, and tracking as well.

If we had the ability to cloak, any active system would invalidate the cloak.

[Super Freak]

Originally posted by Serondal
Another thing. You should try making a stealth fleet without any scanners in it. Thoes might be giving you away too O.o You never know it's worth a try. Myself I don't screw around with cloaking. I just pack my picket line ships with ECCM and make them light up the enemy as fast as possible so I can use insanely over whelming force on them :) That's just my style

What do normal (passive) scanners also give you away? but that would make my fleet blind!!

a fleet without scanner is like a mighty warrior (long range armada) without vision, a thieve (short range armada) can simply sneak in unnoticed an cut open throat. The warrior will only notice the thieve after it is too late.

[LeadMaster Q]

Originally posted by haniblecter
The real world instance of ECM is just jamming. Jamming someones radar with interference doesnt give away your position...cause they're jammed. ECCM is some mysterious new technology that QS made up.

ECCM is in use for many years now in the real world. For example Russian supersonic antiship missiles use ECCM to correctly select between the target and the decoy. For example the ECCM will just ignore readings that it believes are decoys or it will ignore bandwaves that it believes are jammed etc.

[Llama8]

Originally posted by LeadMaster Q
ECCM is in use for many years now in the real world. For example Russian supersonic antiship missiles use ECCM to correctly select between the target and the decoy. For example the ECCM will just ignore readings that it believes are decoys or it will ignore bandwaves that it believes are jammed etc.


Waveband.

Also, might ECCM (in a general sense) be signal processing methods used to distinguish between the real target & the decoy?

[zeyz]

Originally posted by Xentax
You can put multiple of ECM/ECCM I know, and possibly of the cloaking series as well.

It just stacks.

So if one ECM I gives a 1.1 effect, 2 ECM I gives a 1.1^2 effect, or 1.21, etc.

Sensors like the Focus Detection Array work similarly. If one reduces effective range to 70%, two will reduce it to 49%, three to 34.3%, and so on.

How they play against each other (you have scanners, they have ECM, and vice versa, etc.) is where things go into "I don't know" land.

interesting.... so it seems then that (for scanning at least)
sensor 2 may actually provide the best results for your space
(10 advanced takes 550 space and gives .00010 * distance)
(16 X-ray takes 560 space and gives .000070 * distance)
(6 Ultimate takes 540 space and gives .00024 * distance)
(28 sensor 2 takes 560 space and gives .000046 * distance)
(37 sensor 1 takes 555 space and gives .00026 * distance)
and these relationships are similar at smaller space allocated too (say 100 space available + or - 10)
So depending on what tech is available, you'd choose to stack large amounts of sensor2, if you dont have that then X-ray, and if you don't have that then advanced. Thus maing the top-level sensor useless (because the basic sensor (which is always-have?) performs better in stacking)

[Llama8]

Stupid question, but what is sensor 1/2?

[Blogger2003]

Super Freak:

This seems obvious and perhaps that is why no one explained, but by definition, passive sensors do not emit, therefore, they have no signature to detect.

[[SDO]Guardian]

From my observations... ECM and ECCM do cancel each other out. As a result putting equal amounts of eccm and ecm within the same task force is the same as putting nothing there.

If they really coded it so a TF's own ECM and ECCM cancel each other, that's the stupidest thing I've seen yet in MOO3. And that includes the Interface.

Assuming you're correct, and you may be considering I've fielded formations that had ECM V and ECCM IV (BM and LV formations that had every ship mounting it) that never found enemy vessels until close range, it makes a tactical decision a foolishly strategic one. None of the military-space-naval fiction I've ever read has a ship being forced to "pick" between ECM and ECCM. Not in a absolute battle manner (i.e., ship gets one or the other, but not both, for the ENTIRE action). Real navy doesn't get either/or either; ECM works in conjunction with ECCM so the action can be prosecuted.

It's a ridiculous choice, one that should be tactical at worst (captain, do we hide in our ECM or fire up ECCM long enough to engage with the broadside before hiding again?). Further, once again in MOO3, it's a choice you have to guess at. Do you use ECCM on your ships? Guess, because there's no way to see what kind of ECM your opponents are mounting on their ships; not even after you've fought those ships and would rightfully KNOW from your captains' after action reports. Do you use ECM on your ships? Guess, because once again you can't tell if your opponents are mounting ECCM or its level.

Remember, this guessing isn't like "oops, okay try the other one now", it's guessing amid tons of other ill informed guessing that happens over anywhere from fifteen minutes to an hour of gameplay. Because you have to guess, then design, then wait for construction, then form a TF, then run it out, then finally fight it. And at that point you can try to guess if you guessed right or wrong (grr, guess I should have used ECCM instead of ECM, because we never were able to hit them; well maybe it wasn't their ECM, but just bad rolls on our part, hmmm how can we tell if it was ECM or the range or bad rolls or what?). And a wrong guess either wasted yet more time, or costs you all that GNP (sorry, all that construction).

Further, even if one accepts some sort of explanation as to why, within a TF, ECM and ECCM can't be used together, what explanation will hold up when you observe that separate TFs can use opposite choices without cross interferance. If TF14.2 can't use ECCM while ECM'ing because it screws things up, then TF 14.3, operating in the same system, shouldn't be able to use ECCM either for the same reason.

And finally, if ECM/ECCM are opposites, why in the Gods Forsaken Universe isn't it mentioned in the manual? Isn't that something the player NEEDS TO KNOW when designing his ships? What possible purpose is there for not detailing the things that will affect how ship actions resolve?

This used to be an awesome franchise. It really did.

[Ericus1]

Okay, you guys have gotten this completely backwards. If anything, ECM is the red flag, not ECCM. First off, ECCM simply works to dejam YOUR readings of the enemy, not scrable the enemies readings of you. Electronic Counter Measures (one C) sends out massive amounts of sensor static, and essentially overwhelms the enemies dectors. It's like the picture you seen on a radar screen. It's easy to see the single white blip against the green background, but if the whole screen is nothing but white because the radar is showing signals from everywhere, it's hard to make you out. In the real world, NEITHER would be a red flag, unless you had sophisticated triangulation equipment or ECCM, as ECCM would be undetectable (since it's basically making the radar dector more able to filter out all the noise that makes the whole screen white), and ECM would make it impossible to determine the source of the signals, for the exact reason it's used, to HIDE WHERE YOU ARE. If you had ECCM to correct for this, then you will be able to find the fleet anyways, and the location of the source of the ECM signals is irrelevant, becuase you already see the fleet.

[Morris13]

Not to mention the fact that in the real world, military units DO have to pick between ECM and ECCM; or more specifically, between stealth and detection abilities. This is because the most effective sensor systems all work by 'bouncing' something (laser beams, radar waves, sound waves) off the target in order to find out where it is. These are called active sensor systems. Any time a sensor system like this is being used, a unit with the appropriate detection systems can pick up those sensors being used from generally twice as far away as the ship USING the sensors can detect targets with them. This is why ships that want to be hidden (submarines, for example) rely almost exclusively on sensor systems that only detect the emissions that their target is giving off. Passive sensors like this have the advantage of allowing the unit using them to remain hidden, but have vastly inferior range and power compared to active systems. For this reason, it makes PERFECT sense for ECM and ECCM on the same ship to cancel out. Real naval ships will almost always have both, to be fair, but NEVER use both at the same time, since they are mututally exclusive in function.

[BoydofZINJ]

Originally posted by haniblecter
The real world instance of ECM is just jamming. Jamming someones radar with interference doesnt give away your position...cause they're jammed. ECCM is some mysterious new technology that QS made up.



in the "real" world ecm and eccm are "real."

When a submarine, for isntance, wants to remain hidden they do not use active sonar. Why? Active sonar can be used to trace the sub location. However, if an enemy destroyer fleet is looking for a submarine they often use active sonar (pings) to locate the enemy. The submarine will often know exactly where the enemy is before the destroyer captain will find the submarine.

So yes this ECM vs ECCM are real world techs and does make sense. Let us think in a more logical approach. When a "radar" shoots signals in the air to try to locate objects these signals then bounce off the object and reflect back to "radar" source. As a result, the time it takes to go from the starting point to the object and back again will be the half the distance to the target. Which is easily calculated distance. In modern "stealth" technology - "stealth" plains use a special armor which absorbs oncomming "radar waves." As a result, if a radar wave does not return... the radar will not be able to detect a stealthy aircraft. This is, of course, very simiplified.

When you see in a "war" movie or a "spy" movie... "turn off your radio." Or "do not respond back." Why do you think they do that? If a "hidden target" emits some "signals" (radio waves, communication signals, etc) those singals will be easily detected.

Never-the-less, this is a game. With certain rules. You make not like them... but they are part of the game. QS seems to be assuming they they can trace "transmissions" So when your eccm fleet transmits high tech "waves" to try to locate my position... i will be able to spot you a mile a way.

Does this mean stealth technology is better? Have you ever seen 2 submarines fight? Boring until they spot each other. Half luck.. half skill.

I like to use 8 to 2 ratio. 8 ECM and cloak fleets to 2 ECCM fleet (or is it 4 cloak ecm fleets to 1 eccm fleets... which ever works for you)

The ECCM fleet is almost always a LR fleet and uses the cloak ecm fleets for pd protection! =) Strategy. Use my unit which is *not* hidden to detect hidden units, while my hidden units protect my eccm fleet.

DISCLAIMER: Some people may want to call the my "version" bandwidth and signals... rightly so. However, when you think of them as waves... it seems, to me, much easier to see how this ecm and eccm works.

I normally call my eccm fleets "wild weasals." Or "WW" for short.

[Fangthane]

First, I'd just like to point out that at a ratio of 1.65 and a space requirement of 35 the ECM 3 is actually better size economy than the ECM 2. :)

Next...
If they did this the right way ECM would lower their ability to scan your ships in a distance, and cloak would lower their ability to visually detect you when they're closer. Hence having both would allow you to slip around undetched. If both of these values do infact effect the ECM value then it doesn't work that way

According to the mods in the Techtable, ECM modifies a value called DefTgtRg (Defensive Target Range factor) and ECCM modifies one called OffTgtRg. For levels up to 3, these are complements of one another (multiplied 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 the result is about 1.0) and beyond, ECCM gets superior values; it's easier to detect than it is to hide.

According to the same table, cloaks are somewhat special; they modify DefTgtRg enormously (the weakest cloak yields the same result as ECM 5) and also apply an equal bonus to cloaking (presumably for the sake of visual detection)
**edit - just noticed I'd left this in - cloaking, per the files, seems to affect range of visibility on the Galaxy view, so your opponent is shocked when he invades the "3 ships" system and gets whupped by a force of hundreds. I reserve the right to be way off.
As near as I can make out, a phased cloak and a few ECM 3's is the most space-effective way to avoid detection; better cloaks provide better cloaking bonuses, but are substantially less size-efficient if all you want is to modify DefTgtRg.

From the looks of the comments, cloaking may not actually have an application as such, in combat, other than its effect on DefTgtRg. The values indicated by Modifiers.txt for visibility in combat are OffSptRg and DefSptRg, neither of which is modified in any stock tech definition.

Fangthane

[zeyz]

Originally posted by Llama8
Stupid question, but what is sensor 1/2?
Sorry, I forgot the names for which sensor system was which and so went by the names of the sensor techs in TechTables.txt in spreadsheets.mob.

Sensor 1 & 2 are the first and second sensor technologies, respectively.

[vosperdw]

My initial concerns before researching this thread were:

1. ECM/ECCM/detection/stealth are inadequately addressed in the documentation.

2. How did ECM and ECCM interact in the game environment.

3. Does the provision of ECM/ECCM equipment on one TF vessel protect the main body of the TF.

4. Does the entire TF share targeting data, or is it just useable by the vessel that collects it?

The issue in my mind was "Do I really need to equip each TF vessel with ECM/ECCM gear? Can I create support vessels to provide reconnecence and ECM/ECCM?"

The foregoing discussion indicates to me that :

2. ECM and ECCM are not mutually counterproductive.

3. The provision of ECM/ECCM equipment on one TF vessel DOES partially protect the main body of the TF.

4. Targeting data from a single TF sensor IS shared TF wide.

5. Cloaking one vessel will partially cloak the TF.

I base these conclusions on:

a. My fellow gamer's research and reasoning.

b. Quest's logic and forethought - that they would not provide
Ship Specials that conflicted with one another.

c. That the basic combat design is based upon the TF, not upon the single combat unit.

[DoubleSkulls]

Originally posted by BoydofZINJ
ECM and ECCM do cancel each other out.


Could it simply be that by using all your TF space for one or the other you significantly effect the odds of detection.

So having a TF with 10 ECMs means it doesn't get seen.

Having 10 ECCMs means it sees everything.

Having 5 of each means it isn't powerful enough to do either.

I guess the experiment is one task force with each configuration (e.g. one with 5 ECM, one with 5 ECM and 5 ECCM) and send them individually into the same battle then compare the results.

[BoydofZINJ]

Originally posted by DoubleSkulls
Could it simply be that by using all your TF space for one or the other you significantly effect the odds of detection.

So having a TF with 10 ECMs means it doesn't get seen.

Having 10 ECCMs means it sees everything.

Having 5 of each means it isn't powerful enough to do either.

I guess the experiment is one task force with each configuration (e.g. one with 5 ECM, one with 5 ECM and 5 ECCM) and send them individually into the same battle then compare the results.

Perhaps i should make a Task force with just ECM and ECCM ...

yes you could be right... as i said from my observations...

i could make a leviathian with 5 ecm and 5 eccm... but how many weapons would i put... a single pd laser? :)

Let us assume I was originally right... then having 1 or the other is better than having both!

Let us assume your idea is right.... it does not matter but i need several ecm or eccms to be effective... then having 1 or the other is better than having both, because of space...

Afterall, extra weapons to do the damage... or less weapons and not kill much?

Having dedicated fleets means they can specialize. Sure I can make a "carrier" from a missile boat IF ship... but that means I have less missiles or less fighters than a specialized ship.

From my experience, specialized vessel designs are useful... even though, every ship I design has some "back up" weapons. Every ship... even a recon or pd vessel has atleast 1+ fighter... every cruiser+ has atleast 1+ PD weapon

[Dr.Strangelove]

In the real world ECM and ECCM are not mutally interfering. The term ECM refers not only to radar jamming, but also stuff like decoys, chaff and flairs. It's true that sometimes radar jamming can be used by an enemy to target the jammer, but often this simply leads to the development of bettter jamming. There are ways to bounce the signal, or make it "fuzzy" that make triangulation difficult. Furthermore in the real world the jammer (plane or ship) will be deployed away from the main body such that if the enemy has the means to track the jamming plane or ship then the jammer acts as a decoy. ECCM can refer to the technology to locate a jammer, or technology to signal process in a way to defeat the jamming. There is no reason why a fleet couldn't have both. Naval ships often have both capabilites, as do many strike planes. The Air Force and Navy also have planes devoted especially to one function or the other.

In the game are the values of ECM and ECCM combined at the unit (squadron, flotilla, etc.) level alone, or are the spread over the entire fleet of all a player's units? I know that there is some mention of higher value ECM and ECCM having longer range of effect. Is this range of effect measured from the ship having the special, or is it measured from every the center of the unit, or does it cover the entire fleet?

IF ECM affects the enemy's range to detect (defensive range) does the presense of an ECM in my fleet reduce the enemies range to detect all my ships, even if some are on the other side of the battle area, or does it affect only units within a certain radius of the special?

Does ECCM only work to counteract the enemy's ECM, or does it improve my range to detect his ships even if he doesn't have ECM?

Perhaps it would be a good idea to build some ships that specialize in ECM, and others that specialize in ECCM, then spread them among your various Flotillas, Waves, etc.

[BoydofZINJ]

Originally posted by Dr.Strangelove


Perhaps it would be a good idea to build some ships that specialize in ECM, and others that specialize in ECCM, then spread them among your various Flotillas, Waves, etc.

No one has a "for sure" answer... most of this is from observations and half guesses.

The "bad" thing about mixing ECM and ECCM within the same fleet is this... let us assume ecm and eccm effects only your own ship (which is my "guess") If you have 17 cloaked vessels with lots of ecm and a single ship in this task force with no cloak, no ecm, and has lots of eccm - then the enemy can lock on to this one target and thus your entire task force.

As long as they can spot a single vessel... then they can spot your entire task force.

Now let us assume eccm and ecm effect your entire task force... and are mutually exclusive... as a result, you will be lowering your own task force effectiveness and canceling out any advantage you may have...

Now let us assume eccm and ecm effect your entire task force and is not mutually exclusive... as a result, yes you can mix and match... but you are loosing either space or advantage by not having enough

One thing to keep in mind... if they can detect only 1 ship they can detect your entire task force! You do not select a single ship but an entire task force.

The best strategy I have used is this...


Originally posted by Dr.Strangelove
Furthermore in the real world the jammer (plane or ship) will be deployed away from the main body such that if the enemy has the means to track the jamming plane or ship then the jammer acts as a decoy.

I make a single fast "recon" eccm force and use it to detect enemy vessels while "hiding" behind invisibile cloak friendly vessels and their PDs! =) Enemy fighters and enemy missiles tend to get slaughtered fast when using this strategy.

One last thing,
Originally posted by Dr.Strangelove
In the real world ECM and ECCM are not mutally interfering. The term ECM refers not only to radar jamming, but also stuff like decoys, chaff and flairs. It's true that sometimes radar jamming can be used by an enemy to target the jammer, but often this simply leads to the development of bettter jamming. There are ways to bounce the signal, or make it "fuzzy" that make triangulation difficult.

This is a game... plus what happens when you run out of tech and your ecm and eccm tech has maxed out? In this game... there is no way to turn off a system and only use 1 system and not another. If a destroyer, for instance, is looking for an enemy submarine it will be typically using allot of eccm to locate that submarine. There is little point, when hunting, to use ecm... but in this game... there is no way to "decide" in game... everything is assumed to be on.... unless someone has a mod or figured a way to alter this.


Lastly, I can be totally "off" in my observations. I only pointing out how the computer and other human foes react toward me and how it seems to me. Mixing ecm and eccm seem to work the worse for me... but specializing fleets into ecm and eccm work wonders for me. Keeping my eccm fleets in the "back" normally helps keep them alive AND detect the enemy.

[Super Freak]

What about focus array scanners, do they have a negative effect on your forces too? I once made a long range task force where every ship was equipped with a scanning array, and another without scanning array. The first fleet could easily detect any ship in the vicinity while the fleet without was a blind as a mole.

They were so much blind that a short range armada could close in very close , and attack and remain undetected!

[Dr.Strangelove]

According to Fangthane ECM modifies DefTgtRng, defensive target range. I presume this refers to the range at which an enemy is able to target you. ECCM modifies OffTgtRng, offensive target range, which I presume refers to the range at which you can target the enemy. At face value these two would not apeear to be contradictory. Presumably if you had a lot of both then you'd be able to engage an enemy at greater distance because of your ECCM, but he wouldn't be able to engage you because of your ECM.

I don't understand though how the game works it such that having multiple ECMs enhances the ECM effect. It wouldn't make sense for addtitional units to further increase the range at which the enemy can detect you. Could there be some sort of probability factor used? Perhaps having addtitional ECMs add up to further decrease the probability that an enemy will detect you at a certain range. Maybe it affects the probability of scoring a hit.

[Llama8]

Originally posted by Dr.Strangelove
I don't understand though how the game works it such that having multiple ECMs enhances the ECM effect. It wouldn't make sense for addtitional units to further increase the range at which the enemy can detect you. Could there be some sort of probability factor used? Perhaps having addtitional ECMs add up to further decrease the probability that an enemy will detect you at a certain range. Maybe it affects the probability of scoring a hit.

Earlier in this thread Xentax said that multiple ECM/ECCM have more effect so, as I understand it, having several ECM would decrease the DefTgtRng more than just one, but subsequent units have less of an effect.

[BoydofZINJ]

i been having my doubts on ecm and eccm

[zanzibar]

from actually playing the game, instead of reading a silly spreadsheet, my observations on ECM and ECCM (http://www.ina-community.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=305313).

[zesuila]

I've tried to repeat the observation BoyofZinj did against the NO and i came up with the same conclusions:

1. Whenever you put any ECCM on your fleet(no matter the size of your fleet), you get shoot at pretty fast. You seem to get detected early on by the short range beam ships but not by the long range/missiles/carriers armada sitting near the planet of the NO. A smaller TF like squadron takes much more time to detect and can advance closer to the planet than a bigger TF.

2. ECM seems to work when on all of your ships. I did an ECM recon squadron with 2 ECM battleships and i could sneak up pretty close to the NO. I even spotted their short range ship and they could not fire on me for about 10 seconds. Then things got bad ;-) I've tried with more ECM battleships(like 9) and i got destroyed faster but still they could not fire on me for a little while, so ECM seems to work(But we're talking 9 ECM III on each battleship).

3. I then tried my sensor ships to see how sensors worked. Well that was bad. I don't know but 1 Dreadnought with 8 advanced locator system + 1 high-caliber should be able to spot the ennemy a little farther, no? No. I've tried 1 TF with only this ship and i could not even spot any NO before getting destroyed. Then i tried with 2 of these ships and i had the same result. Sensor don't seems to be doing anything. I will try with a whole armada of them, but i don't have them at the ready just yet so it will take a while to build.

4. I then tried a recon pack with mixed ships. I had 2 sensor DN(those in 3), 4 ECM BS and 4 ECCM BS. The ECM and ECCM are level 3 both. I sent those to the NO and the results were a little bizarre. I've started far from the planet and i've spotted the short range and system ships of the NO when i was getting close enough and still they did not fire on me for a while. I even had one of the NO tf pass me by and then, suddenly, it destroyed my fleet. It took a good 15 seconds from the time i spotted them to my destruction and i was close enough for short range ships to normally fire(And the NO short range fire very far), so i don't think ECM and ECCM cancel each other out, but they each have their unique ability. And i would say it is a good thing to put them on different tf.

One thing that stayed consistent in all my tests, there was no missiles nor fighters that could spot me. None of them ever came in my general direction. They just scouted around the planet.

P.S.: Oh i forgot to mentions, all my ships had Phased Cloaking on them. I've stopped stacking cloaks when i could not detect any difference in the fights.

[zesuila]

Ok, i've done further testing against the NO and here comes the results:

1. I've tried a recon armada of sensor DN with Advanced locator system on them(8 on each). 18 ships and i could detect the NO about 1 square farther than with 1 or 2 sensor ships. So you don't need more than 1 sensor ship in your armada for detection purpose and there seems to be a limit to the stacking of sensors(maybe the best ship sensors are used and the rest are not used). I've tried it 5 times and had the exact same results.

2. I've tried a recon armada with 13 sensor ships DN(same as no.1) plus 5 ECM III battleships. Now here comes the weird part, i could not detect the NO anymore! They busted my TF and i could never detect them at all! The ECM seemed to be working most of the time because it took them a while and they had to get a little close to destroy me, but my sensors seemed to be offline or something. Again, tried it 5 times to be sure. A lot of fun to see invisible ships blast you to smithereens! ;-)

3. Tried an armada of 13 sensors DN(like no.1) plus 5 ECCM III battleships. This time, the results where much like no.1 in the detection area, but i got shot from very far because i had no ECM. I even had some missiles reaching me!

Conclusions:
- sensors and ECM seems to be interfering with each other.
- ECM alone is effective and stackeable(as long as you have plenty of them)
- sensors and ECCM seems ok but i could not find any difference wheter you had ECCM or not so ECCM might not work very well for now. This is a fight against the NO who have Uber tek, but i'm not sure they ever use any ECM since they have such magnificient cloaking so i will not draw any conclusion yet of ECCM. I've seen other races use ECM because i could not shoot the TF i was seeing, even when i was close so i will have to test against them for ECCM.

[Ron_Lugge]

Zues - We've been told by QSI that ECM and ECCM counter one-to-one when opposition, and that THEY DO NOT INTERFERE when on the same side.

[viciouscycle]

The ECM/ECCM/sensor/cloak questions are still around and will be until QS provides specific information on exactly how these systems work and interact at the individual ship and task force levels. Until then, this is all speculation and theory. I admire those putting a lot of work into figuring this thing out on their own though and I hope some good has come from it. I think it is unfortunate that players are having to resort to this kind of experimentation to understand a small part of the rules behind this game.

A certain amount of the unknown makes games fun and it is certainly enjoyable to figure out parts of games on your own but this issue is a bit beyond that, IMHO. We need some help here, QS.

[Da_Blade]

Why did this old thread got resurrected anyways?

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Da_Blade
Why did this old thread got resurrected anyways?

BoydofZINJ wanted to spam, I think.

[Iskabis]

Originally posted by Da_Blade
Why did this old thread got resurrected anyways?
as an alternative to zanzibar's??

:)
-rhyssan

[Super Freak]

Originally posted by viciouscycle
A certain amount of the unknown makes games fun and it is certainly enjoyable to figure out parts of games on your own but this issue is a bit beyond that, IMHO. We need some help here, QS.

I full agree, why didn't they include this data with the patch, it was the perfect opportunity for it :cry:

[Tan]

Hi friends,
I am told to write ECCM algorithm in VHDL.But i couldnt find it out the algorithm anywhere in the internet.Can anyone help me out regarding this issue..
Eagerly waiting for your reply.

[SMELLJAB]

Hahahahahaha. A electronics engineering student came to our forum, then smoked some crack. and now thinks we're going to program his missiles with our secret alien super-technology?

I mean seriously Tan, say hi to Borat for me. And no we don't have your missile code.

[pedxing]

actually, i think the crack was before getting here. :rolleyes:

Tan, this is a forum about a galactic conquest game, where imaginary ships use ECM, ECCM, Cloaking Devices, and Sensors.

but in general be aware that, no, the internet will not do your homework for you... especially as you advance into higher* classes.

it sounds like you either misunderstood the assignment, or the problem was not very well defined. talk to your teaching assistant.

* and i do not mean "higher" as in "smoke more". :haha:

[Raion]

Ah, I doubt if it is going to be the same as a computer game. But did you look up ECCM at Wikipedia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_counter-counter-measures

The closest one could come to anything like that is to read a book, probably somewhere in your text book, or you might try and ask how they programmed it in C++ in the game of "Harpoon 3" which can be found on the Internet.
It is a Navel Simulation, and I have no idea about jamming anything like ECM or anything else.

But I think I heard that sometimes on shortwave radio or something that makes a lot of noise.

But really in a computer game, it probably is just a percentage taken off of the original targeting value and really has nothing to do with the real ECCM.

Otherwise, maybe check a computer science forum or something.
We have no idea!

MOO3 is a space-alien artifact. It was beamed into the head of the Developer, forgotten, mixed-up, change, and then had to be finished by the programmers. It is uncertain still whether the developer was beamed up to the spaceship, because certainly in the midst of anything programmed in this game of MOO3 things were mixed up prompting one player to create a new equation from Einstein's famous equation:

E = (MOO3)c^2, which means that the Master of Orion ]|[ (3) game is a virtual mass game.

I afraid though that the space-aliens must have left, and we are stuck with the game as it is, and as it was finished. It will not fly even into Orbit, or anything else but it is virtual mass though!
:alien:

It is your technology Humans, not our technology that is hay-wire. You call it the brain, we merely think that Humans have no brain, as far as we can preceive using that Human Brain.

[Awsric Armitage]

In Game

or....

[Awsric Armitage]

Classified Data...