Emphasis and Diplomacy

[dustdevil]

Is there a chart around somewhere that shows how to interact with other races without pissing them off? I'm forever getting war declared on me, sometime by races I only know thru the Orion Senate, and I figure I must be putting the wrong emphasis on my actions (badly!)

Thanks....

[Patton1942]

It depends on the race. An agressive race, for example will respond poorly to you beging it for something. A peaceful, pacifistic race will respond best to reasoning and compassion.

Best I got, sorry. *shrug*

[Da_Blade]

Also depends on the race YOU got. Dont expect to be considered mr. nice guy by everyone if you are playing Ithkul, known for their making a tasty meal out of any race :D

Some races just dont like others. Maybe someone should actually read up on that history, i am sure it states who doesn't like who. Though it seems wrong in some areas. For instance the nommo and trillian should not like each other, since they fight for the same homeworld, and the nommo are kind of outcasts of the trillian society. However, when they meet each other, its love at first sight....

[Zanshin1]

Has the details of what approach works best with who.

From memory, the Saurians respond well to aggressive overtures,
the Eoladi like you to be nice to them, the Insectoids and Cybernetics like straightforward statements, and nothing works with the Ithkul so don't bother.

What I would like to see is the video of my emissaries talking to the other race, I love the bizarre statements at the bottom with their replies!

[MasterMoO]

I also love the funky background music when a cynoid emissary talks to me.

[ElCommunisto]

Here's what I've figured out works fairly well for each race, at least for me:

Race: when asking for something/when replying to a request

Human: Reason/Polite
Evon: Beg or Plead/Appreciative or Humble
Psilon: Reason/Polite
Meklar: State/Formal
Cynoid: State/Formal
Sakkra: Demand/Insult
Raas: Reason/Polite
Grendarl: Reason or State/Polite
Trilarian: Reason/Polite
Nommo: Reason/Polite
Imsaeis: Argue/Cool
Eoladi: Reason or Argue/Polite or Cool
Silicoid: State/Formal
Klackon: Argue or Declare/Cool or Cold
Tachidi: Declare or Demand/Cool
Harvesters: Don't even bother

Enjoy!

[dustdevil]

Thanks guys - its appreciated. :up:

WRT racial reaction modifiers, there's a listing of them in the encyclopedia mod, I believe.

[Wendeigo]

The brokeness factor makes any attempts to understand how diplomacy works of minimal utility.

[dustdevil]

I don't think its broken.... the AI just needs to give you a bit more feedback as to WHY you're pissing it off. I'm sure its all nice & logical under the hood.....

[Scramasax66]

If ElCommunisto is right, I wouldn't mind seeing that info on a sticky.

[Sparky]

I was looking for this information on diplomacy and I tried to produce one for my self but this one was much more thorough thanks

Yeah this should be a sticky

I wish that infogames had put some real work on the manual, or that prima's strategy guide were more help.

[Ron_Lugge]

A) Bumps aren't liked around here :D

B) some of those looked off to me...

Originally posted by ElCommunisto
Imsaeis: Argue/Cool
Eoladi: Reason or Argue/Polite or Cool

I'm not certain, but I think you have those reversed. The brown mushrooms like declare, and the pink carnivores like reason.

Harvesters: Don't even bother

I believe they actually prefer "Drop all" ;)

[StormHawk]

Look in the encyclopedia, under 'diplomacy overview'. I seem to remember adding that list (above) to the encyclopedia mod, but I can't seem to find it...anyway download it! it includes the default encyclopedia, so it cant hurt can it?

[viciouscycle]

I haven't tried any experiments with other races but in the last two games I have always used the "formal" emphasis when dealing with all the Saurian races and have not gotten any bad results. This seems to counter the belief that a more aggresive tone should be used with said races.

In fact, in my current game, I won't even bother to change the emphasis from the default "formal" to anything else no matter what race I'm dealing with.

[Steely Glint]

According to a lot of people which emphasis you use actually has very little effect, though I haven't personally tested it. It may be a feature that was cut.

[JosEPh]

I'm hoping Gerra's Diplomacyfix1.0 in the Mod section will help address some of these issues. Diplo was and is one of Moo3's features that I was eagerly looking forward to! ? does anyone know if you can Demand another race to surrender? I always wondered why ,even in Moo and Moo2, why that was not an option? Any thoughts or bits of info ?
:):)

[The Big Joke]

Im shure i found information about it in the spreadsheets.mob file, if anyone ahs the time, can you check?

[Sparky]

I found a mod that claims to fix the diplomacy problems found in the game. The author claims all the problems stem from a simple bug in the main executable file. His statement follows:

"After an analysis of the code Moo3 executable Moo3.exe I have come to the following conclusion :
A. That the core diplomacy spreadsheet diplo.txt that handles the makeup of diplomatic interaction has been incorrectly named , and is therefore not loaded into the game resulting in the incoherent diplomatic exchange.
B. That is it is easily fixed by renaming this file into the name that has been found in the code.

Results are guaranteed ! Empire relations become stable , coherent AND understandable , with each race having its own phrasings.

Have fun ! More info in the readme and the link .....Gerra "

here is the mod:
http://www.moo3mods.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=46

I have not yet tried it but I do intend to.

[rhyssan]

Originally posted by Sparky
I found a mod that claims to fix the diplomacy problems found in the game. The author claims all the problems stem from a simple bug in the main executable file. His statement follows:



here is the mod:
http://www.moo3mods.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=46

I have not yet tried it but I do intend to.
all you have to do to apply this fix is extract the file diplo.txt from spreadsheets.mob. it's not yet shown whether it has any actual effect - there have been posts on both sides.

-rhyssan

oh - and it doesn't fix much - just the statements you get from the AI empires. it has nothing to do with changing reactions to different stances or tones, and it has no effect on the beginning causus belli or how that changes over the course of game events.

[rhyssan]

Originally posted by StormHawk
Look in the encyclopedia, under 'diplomacy overview'. I seem to remember adding that list (above) to the encyclopedia mod, but I can't seem to find it...anyway download it! it includes the default encyclopedia, so it cant hurt can it?
it's in there...
(bc i accidently sent you my version which included it, and you published it before i realized my mistake and let you know. and it didn't seem worth "fixing' by removing it... :) )

-rhyssan

[Sparky]

Originally posted by rhyssan
all you have to do to apply this fix is extract the file diplo.txt from spreadsheets.mob. it's not yet shown whether it has any actual effect - there have been posts on both sides.

-rhyssan

oh - and it doesn't fix much - just the statements you get from the AI empires. it has nothing to do with changing reactions to different stances or tones, and it has no effect on the beginning causus belli or how that changes over the course of game events.

Thanks for the above info and I will keep it in mind as I try this mod.

Any other thoughts about this?

[rhyssan]

Originally posted by Sparky
Thanks for the above info and I will keep it in mind as I try this mod.

Any other thoughts about this?
from me - not yet. i haven't had a chance to try it. hopefully next week i'll get time to go back to moo3....

-rhyssan

[StormHawk]

Originally posted by rhyssan
it's in there...
(bc i accidently sent you my version which included it, and you published it before i realized my mistake and let you know. and it didn't seem worth "fixing' by removing it... :) )

-rhyssan

Ya, I remember that. I left it in because it would most likely help people. I just can't remember where it was. :) I searched through the text file, but the one I found looks different...I do remember you telling me that it was inserted into the original sections....maybe I did find it and thought it was something else.

[Flinx]

Originally posted by ElCommunisto
Meklar: State/Formal
As Evon I take a much stronger tone with the Meklar usually ‘Declare/Cold’. I find with 'State' that I am at war within a few turns but with ‘Declare’ I have to do something to tick them off before they declare war.Originally posted by ElCommunisto
Eoladi: Reason or Argue/Polite or Cool
:weird: ‘Reason’ and ‘Argue’ are on either side of ‘State’, how can both of these be valid? Then again, this is the only race I have not figured out how to talk to so maybe you need to use a carrot and stick approach with them. :bulb:Originally posted by Steely Glint
According to a lot of people which emphasis you use actually has very little effect, though I haven't personally tested it. It may be a feature that was cut. I find emphasis makes a big difference.

[Krampf]

Originally posted by ElCommunisto
Here's what I've figured out works fairly well for each race, at least for me:

Race: when asking for something/when replying to a request

Human: Reason/Polite
Evon: Beg or Plead/Appreciative or Humble
Psilon: Reason/Polite
Meklar: State/Formal
Cynoid: State/Formal
Sakkra: Demand/Insult
Raas: Reason/Polite
Grendarl: Reason or State/Polite
Trilarian: Reason/Polite
Nommo: Reason/Polite
Imsaeis: Argue/Cool
Eoladi: Reason or Argue/Polite or Cool
Silicoid: State/Formal
Klackon: Argue or Declare/Cool or Cold
Tachidi: Declare or Demand/Cool
Harvesters: Don't even bother

Enjoy!

This matches pretty well with the info in the Strategy Guide, if that means anything. They lean more towards forceful with the Psilons, and that you should use declare with Imsaeis. They also forgot to put anything for the Nommo.

[rhyssan]

i've been just using the default for my last couple of games, and haven't noticed a difference in effect. i got brave enough to do that after i noticed that the tables which list values for each race/emphasis pair have all 0 entries. i haven't tried putting values in to see if i can make a difference - that'll be the next thing i try, but it'll probably be a week or more before i get to it...

-rhyssan

[solops]

Bump

[solops]

I'm gonna post a composite of a bunch of posts below. I've credited where I could. ALL of the work belongs to others.

DIPLOMACY NOTES

This part by...???

The two most important things in diplomacy are the diplomacy race picks and the emhasis style, which both affect a thing called BaseCore. BaseCore is the most important part of diplomacy (even though QSI never mentioned it) and is the main factor the AI takes into consideration when it is proposing or recieveing offers along with Casus Belli and Diplomacy Points. Think of BaseCore as your trustworthyness or political clout; if you manage to gain high amounts you can gain military alliances and negotiate the fancier treaties, and if it is too low you might have sactions declared on you or be threatened.

How BaseCore is Affected:

Race Picks- Affect BaseCore when applied to Alliances or Peace Treaties
+50 for Excellent diplomacy,
+25 for Good diplomacy,
+0 for Average diplomacy,
-25 for Poor diplomacy
(Note: the Race Pick Trade effects Trade Agreements in an identical way)

Emphasis Style- Affects Raw BaseCore Total
+60 for Beg or Declare
+30 for Plead or (whatever the one is below Demand, I can't remember, I'll edit later)
+15 for Argue or Reason
+5 for State

War Atrocities-
Affects BaseCore when applied to everything but Pronouns diplomacy (more on that later)
These decrease your BaseCore whenever you commit an atrocity such as killing population through bombardment or invasion and using NBC weapons. These penalties increase greatly for senate members and are horrible for those that get kicked out of the senate. This makes it so that peaceful races have an easier time with their political negotiations and warlike races get comdemned in the senate, and turn into everyone's enemy if they are expelled, unless they made strong alliances before hand.

Treaties-
Various treaties and trade agreements effect BaseCore, usualy in a negative way if the agreeement fails and positively if it suceeds. In general, Trade Agreements effect your chances of Negotiating Treaties and Exchanges, Treaties effect the chances of negotiating Exchanges and Trade Agreements, and Exchanges effect the chances of Treaties And Trade AGREEMENTS.


Negotiations and Emphasis-

BaseCore is found in the modifiers.txt file next to PercImg, row 311.

UpOrDown is a +

Scale Factor is 0 (this can be modified- bigger # is better, smaller is bad)

Base Priority is 0 (is either 0 or 1)

There are certain amounts of BaseCore required to negotiate proposals. For example a Non-Agression Pact requires 80, an Economic TA requires 60, and a Research TA requires 20.

Heres how it is calculated:

First, select an Emphasis style, and add its value temporarily to your BaseCore total along with the values gained from the diplomacy or trade racepicks. Then, if the total is over the amount required for the agreement it is accepted and you can proceed to the next step, otherwise it fails and you incur any of the penalties generated for failure. If you suceed your Emphasis BaseCore is modified based on how far it was from the optimal value for the receiving races, as follows.

If the Emphasis was off by
0- it is perfect and 50% of the emphasis value is added to your total
1- 25% of the emphasis value is added to your total
2- it is decent and nothing is gained or lost
3- 10% of the emphasis value is subtracted from your total
4- 20% of the emphasis value is subtracted from your total
5- 30% of the emphasis value is subtracted from your total
6- 40% of the emphasis value is subtracted from your total

So either being Humble or Demanding will help the offer being negotiated but will probably hurt in the long term.

-----------------------------------------------------
I don't know if this has ever been asked, but does anybody know what the correct response tone is to each different race is for the maximum relations benefit? I've found a partial list, but not a whole one...

Partial Emphasis List:

Sakkra: Demand
Eoladi: Reason
Human: Reason
Grendarl: Reason
Trilarian: Reason
Tachidi: Declare
Imsaes: Declare
Evon: Beg
Klackon: Argue
Cynoin: State
Silicoid: State
Raas: Reason

--------------------------------------------------------------
Once upon a time there was a thread regarding this but IIRC the best responses to races were something like this.

Human: Reason
Insectoid: Reason
Silicoid: Formal
Saurian: Demand/Cold
Etherian: Varies/Reason
Ichthytosian: Polite/Appreciative

Some one explained that the Saurians respected sterness and cold to demanding emphasis viewing politeness as weakness. While the Ichthytosians were insulted easily and responded better to polite and appreciative tones.

For real, I do not think anyone knows for sure as there exists a few emphasis charts in the spreadsheets(EmphasisModifiers, MissedByModifier, ReplyEmphasis) but how they are used to modify the prefered method of delivery is beyond me. I have printouts of the tables but can't find what file I extracted them from now. Probably Hard-Coded anyways.

The ReplyEmphasis table seems to indicate that the tone used has something to do with this formula: DiploPts+=(Various Ratios), CRDipGon+or- and= Various Bonuses and Penalties. What that means and if it is used are something else entirely.
-----------------------------------------------------
My first point is my 2 AUs on the notion of emphasis in diplomatic negotiations. A few places in this thread and elsewhere the topic of what emphasis to select and what effect this may have has been brought up. I do recall seeing a list (partial?) somewhere on the boards to this effect. IIRC that post was listing from memory himself. I wanted to bring up the Prima guide strategy guide for MoO3, (not too many groans please). I realize that it is woefully inaccurate and full of stuff that doesn't exist in the game any more. It did however have a breakdown for each race and more to the point, tips on what emphasis to use for most of them. This list of emphases matches perfectly with the list I obtained from these boards, (but have forgotten where said list came from exactly).

For what it may do as help, I will include it below for those who might want to peruse it.

Race ask respond
Sakkra demand insult
Eoladi reason polite
Human reason polite
Grendarl reason polite
Trilarian reason polite
Tachidi declare ? (reason)
Imsaies declare ? (Reason)
Evon beg humble
Klackon argue cool
Cynoid state formal
Silicoid state formal
Raas reason polite
Meklar declare cold
Nommo ? (polite) ? (Appreciative)
Psilon ? (Reaosn) ? (polite)
Ithkul ? ? (does anyone ever TALK to these guys??)
--------------------------------------------------------
Learn something new every day, and here's mine:

I was looking at baserelations.txt, and noticed that there's a modifier to reactions depending on what government you both have. Mostly these are small, but there are a few noticeable ones:
• Most representative governments really like their exact counterparts. Parliaments get +10 to each other; Corporates get +12; Democracies +15.
• The Collectivist Series and the Representative Series don't like each other, getting -10 to -15 in their reactions.
• Unification governments don't like each other! -10 reaction.
• The Absolutist governments are mostly pretty mellow about other governments, with only small plusses and minuses. Oligarchy has a couple exceptions--they like other Oligarchies, +12, but not Hives, -10.

The other thing that stands out is how Collectivist governments have minuses across the board.

10 points here or there isn't a huge influence, but it's one I had no inkling of yesterday morning.

***

TableStart OathBreaker
ColumnHeadingsStart Standard Justified
RowHeadingsStart
Penalty "DiploPts+=(-75:-20),CasusBel+=(-150:-75),BaseCore+=-5" "DiploPts+=(-38:-10),CasusBel+=(-75:-38),BaseCore+=-3"
TableEnd

TableStart MoralOutrage
ColumnHeadingsStart NonSenate Senate SenateBanned
RowHeadingsStart
EndEnforcedPeace "CRTreaty+=-40,CRPeaceT+=-40,CRTradeM+=-40,CRExchng+=-40,CRDipGon+=-40,CRLarges+=-40" "CRTreaty+=-60,CRPeaceT+=-60,CRTradeM+=-60,CRExchng+=-60,CRDipGon+=-60,CRLarges+=-60" "CRTreaty+=-60,CRPeaceT+=-60,CRTradeM+=-60,CRExchng+=-60,CRDipGon+=-60,CRLarges+=-60"
CulturalGenocide CRDipGon+=-40 CRDipGon+=-40 CRDipGon+=-60
NuclearWeapons CRDipGon+=-25 "CRTreaty+=-25,CRPeaceT+=-25,CRTradeM+=-25,CRExchng+=-25,CRDipGon+=-25,CRLarges+=-25" "CRTreaty+=-37,CRPeaceT+=-37,CRTradeM+=-37,CRExchng+=-37,CRDipGon+=-37,CRLarges+=-37"
ChemicalWeapons CRDipGon+=-40 "CRTreaty+=-40,CRPeaceT+=-40,CRTradeM+=-40,CRExchng+=-40,CRDipGon+=-40,CRLarges+=-40" "CRTreaty+=-60,CRPeaceT+=-60,CRTradeM+=-60,CRExchng+=-60,CRDipGon+=-60,CRLarges+=-60"
BiologicalWeapons CRDipGon+=-66 "CRTreaty+=-66,CRPeaceT+=-66,CRTradeM+=-66,CRExchng+=-66,CRDipGon+=-66,CRLarges+=-66" "CRTreaty+=-99,CRPeaceT+=-99,CRTradeM+=-99,CRExchng+=-99,CRDipGon+=-99,CRLarges+=-99"
DestroyUnpopulated CRDipGon+=-50 "CRTreaty+=-50,CRPeaceT+=-50,CRTradeM+=-50,CRExchng+=-50,CRDipGon+=-50,CRLarges+=-50" "CRTreaty+=-75,CRPeaceT+=-75,CRTradeM+=-75,CRExchng+=-75,CRDipGon+=-75,CRLarges+=-75"
DestroyLightlyPopulated CRDipGon+=-66 "CRTreaty+=-66,CRPeaceT+=-66,CRTradeM+=-66,CRExchng+=-66,CRDipGon+=-66,CRLarges+=-66" "CRTreaty+=-99,CRPeaceT+=-99,CRTradeM+=-99,CRExchng+=-99,CRDipGon+=-99,CRLarges+=-99"
DestroyPopulated CRDipGon+=-90 "CRTreaty+=-90,CRPeaceT+=-90,CRTradeM+=-90,CRExchng+=-90,CRDipGon+=-90,CRLarges+=-90" "CRTreaty+=-135,CRPeaceT+=-135,CRTradeM+=-135,CRExchng+=-135,CRDipGon+=-135,CRLarges+=-135"
TableEnd


***
In the first table, it looks like we have reactions to breaking treaties. Then it looks like there are two categories, standard and justified. I THINK justified is when you do one of these actions after a threat. But how do you think the actual modifiers work? Obviously DiploPts refers to how the diplomacy is modified, and the CausBel refers to Causus Beli, but why two numbers for each? Is this the maximum it could be affected as well as the minimum? Does this affect all AI opponents, or just the one that you offended? Also, what do you suppose BaseCore means?

Now , in the second table we have the diplomatic relations to various actions, NBC, and destroying various planets. It is my assumption that this means destroying as in blowing to bits, and not just orbital bombardment (simply because I have never suffered any diplomatic backlash from slagging planets). Then we have three columns for three classes of empires, those that are not in the senate, those that are, and those kicked out. What do you suppose all of these modifiers refer to? The chance that an AI will agree or refuse a certain kind of treaty? But what about
CRDipGon? What does that mean? I have never had an empire yank their diplomatic contact with me, unless their nearest planets got slagged. Furthermore, I'm not even sure these modifiers are even active ... in this game I am the Saddam Hussain of NBCs and no one has even said boo to me about my cowardly style of fighting ...

Thoughts? Observations? Theories?

Dano

----------------------------------------------------
Race: when asking for something/when replying to a request

Human: Reason/Polite
Evon: Beg or Plead/Appreciative or Humble
Psilon: Reason/Polite (reversed?)
Meklar: State/Formal
Cynoid: State/Formal
Sakkra: Demand/Insult
Raas: Reason/Polite
Grendarl: Reason or State/Polite
Trilarian: Reason/Polite
Nommo: Reason/Polite
Imsaeis: Argue/Cool
Eoladi: Reason or Argue/Polite or Cool
Silicoid: State/Formal
Klackon: Argue or Declare/Cool or Cold
Tachidi: Declare or Demand/Cool
Harvesters: Don't even bother

Enjoy!
El Communisto

[SMELLJAB]

solops, you have the math for calculating the points needed for a trade agreement, etc. Now how does current relations, and the other metrics(causus belli, current relations state) fit into that? Is zero on current relations have some signifigance? TIA.

Ok scalefactor

updown
basepriority

on the victory overview screen
current relations
current relations state

Fans of the MOO series will be familiar with the "relations bar," a scale which was used to show the current degree of friendship or antipathy between empires. The relation's bar remains and still reflects that measurement, but Alan has added a new dimension: the Casus Belli/Perceived Image indices. While the relation's bar is a statement of where two civilizations are now, these new indices show the direction in which the relationship is tending to move, based upon actions that have been taken up to this point. Casus Belli is a measure of how the people of your civilization feel toward the other civilization, while Perceived Image is an estimate of how the other civilization feels toward you. Think of these as diplomatic "storm warning indicators."

[pedxing]

i see why my lazy emphasis strategy doesn't hurt me...

if i always State everything, i get a temporary +5 to Base Core. at worst, i can be off of the optimal emphasis by three steps, in which case i lose 10% of that 5, from my Base Core.

i'm sure the effects of getting treaties and building good relationships swamps the occasional loss of .5 points... :rolleyes:

the 50% bonus for nailing the emphasis looks pretty attractive, though... it might help me accelerate my diplomatic machinations?

i have a hard time believing that the optimal emphasis values are hardcoded. the really should be in a spreadsheet, somewhere. nobody has reported finding it yet though...

[solops]

i see why my lazy emphasis strategy doesn't hurt me...

if i always State everything, i get a temporary +5 to Base Core. at worst, i can be off of the optimal emphasis by three steps, in which case i lose 10% of that 5, from my Base Core.
.

Same here. I looked this stuff up because I thought I might try to better, unless it required effort.

Smelljab: I have no clue.

All-in-all it just explains to me why I never get invited to tea. Apparently it has something to do with my standard, unvarying foreign policy of expansion through xenocide.

[Native]

Bump

This was a very interesting read. Thanks for the pointer Ped.

[danib]

bump