Newbs: Ask gameplay questions, get answers

[Lennier]

Yeah, I got a cut scene. I notice when I won senate victory..lit said I had 4 antaran X's, but only 3 out of the 5 on the victory screen.

I assumed there was a limited amount of X's (5 total), thats why, after I got three..I noticed 2 empires had 1 each..I gave up looking for them.If one of your eXpeditions finds an "X", you'll need to research for 20-25 turns or so to "Institutionalize" it. Different subroutines may be counting the X's differently; some only counting "institutionalized" ones, some counting all discovered ones.

[Waterboy_Matt]

I just beat the game for the first time with a presidency victory, so I naturally decided to start over. In the new game, my home system is right next door to a Guardian's system. I took them on in the previous game, but that was really late in the game. I need to expand and he's very in the way. What's the earliest I could possibly take on my Guardian, as far as minimum technologies and that sort of thing? What sorts of ships would be best? Is there a maximum of how many ships I can bring into a battle?

I'm thinking of having one armada of carriers to distract it with fighters, and as many armadas as I can make of missle guys. Could that even work with early technologies?

[Monkey Head]

max ships unmodded is 180.

it is possibble to take them down with starting technogogies with a bit of nous and luck.

that idea might work, but the small number fighters wont really be any use. lots of missiles (make them armour piercing), and lots of fighters, preferably mass driver (armour piercing) can work VERY early.

think carefully: that gaurdian will work very well as a free "defence" of one way into your empire, depending on galactic topography. probsbly only worth taking out really really early if you lack space (lol space in space if you will), or it leads to an arm you can cut off (not your own :P nyuk nyuk nyuk). if it leads nowhere, or to the galactic core, you might (and i stress might, as this is a personal preference, and others WILL disagree) be better leaving it alone for now.

[ac_snowman]

I just beat the game for the first time with a presidency victory, so I naturally decided to start over. In the new game, my home system is right next door to a Guardian's system. I took them on in the previous game, but that was really late in the game. I need to expand and he's very in the way. What's the earliest I could possibly take on my Guardian, as far as minimum technologies and that sort of thing? What sorts of ships would be best? Is there a maximum of how many ships I can bring into a battle?

I'm thinking of having one armada of carriers to distract it with fighters, and as many armadas as I can make of missle guys. Could that even work with early technologies?

That starting position could be a bummer or a blessing depending on what's on the other side. Having the guardian there can give you a nice safe "pocket" of space to create a well developed although perhaps small empire. Then you can take down the guardian a little later expand via conquest from your developed base. Now if you've only got a handful of systems to colonize total, then that's a bummer.

You can also send your colony and scout ships "off road". If there are close systems but no starlanes to them you can select a ship and hold Ctrl while selecting a system to send a ship straight there without use of starlanes. This can give you an area to expand into while your core stays protected.

Taking down the guardian early is iffy IMHO. It's been claimed that it can be done with mass driver fighters and lots of nukes, but haven't had much luck with anything prior to enveloping fusion fighters myself. You would need lots of ships if you're going to try with early tech. # of ships depends on your version and mods. Default 1.2.5 limits combat to 10 TF's of up to 18 ships.

Just my 2 cents. Let us know how it goes.

[pedxing]

yeah, an off-road colony ship to a world on the other side of the Guardian is probably the best way.

by the time it gets there, you might even have Mobilization Center tech, if you rush Physical Science for a while, and then you can just mobilze ships on that side of the blockage.

i've heard it can be done with Merculite missiles, but i usually save Guardian popping for doing break-through surprise attacks on the undefended flank of an enemy, much later in the game.

[TheLittleMaster]

Hi... I read the rules, and hopefully this is a suitable question!

Why is it that my troops only remain "experienced" in my games? In my current game, all of my Armor and Mobile troops remain as "experienced", even after sending them out to battles... How will they ever become "elite" or Veteran"???

[Fishers of Men]

Ground troops' experience level is improved by a point system. They can gain points, going from recruits to trained to experienced, just by sitting in your reserves(but very slowly). They gain most points by being in combat. After a successful planet conquest, remove them back to the reserves and use them again for another planet invasion. They will become veteran units very quickly this way. I have never had units improve enough to become "elite" but I am sure it is possible, given enough time.

I take trained units and use them in small "easy" invasions which allows them to gain the experience they will need for later in the game. I save my veteran units for the "big fight" or the Armageddon battle for final control of the Galaxy.

FoM

[pedxing]

yep, the key is indeed to disband them as soon as the invasion is over, and then recycle them through invasion after invasion.

the easiest way to remember to do it is to follow the sitrep link to the planet after the invasion succeed.

in case i forget to do that, i like to re-check each world in a system, once the final world in that system falls.

and in case i forget to do that, when i'm about to start a new war, i go to the planets list, select "Military Details" as the thing to show for my planets, and see if any of them have non-zero troop levels.

also usefull when putting together a ground force is to set the over-all experience level of the force as high as possible in the drop-down menu, but then include as many less-experienced units in the force as the formation rules allow. those junior units will (if foggy memory serves) train up to the level of their unit more quickly than they would otherwise (does this sound familiar to anybody else? :weird: ) ...

even so, i've only seen a very few Elite units... usually only Marines have been around long enough to reach it and tough enough to survive that long... but by the end of most games i've usually got a Corps or two worth of Vetran Infantry and Marines.

these are mostly Senate and Allied Victory games, mind you... i'm sure in Sole Survivor games they're more common by the end?

anyway, it's a nice role-play touch to mobilize a Corps of them as their own force, and send them along with the Experienced Armies of Mobiles and Armor that are the backbone of my invasion forces by that point! :up:

[TheLittleMaster]

Thanks ever so much again :)

Glad I joined the forums, which I tend not to do :P, finding out lots of useful stuff... although I tend to be #1 by 150 turns in an "Impossible" game with 16 other races :P

[pedxing]

Glad I joined the forums, which I tend not to do :p
yeah, most of the repository of knowledge about this game, not just how to play it, but how to patch/mod it into playability, is on these pages.

and the community here is great. lots of good folks! :up:

finding out lots of useful stuff... although I tend to be #1 by 150 turns in an "Impossible" game with 16 other races :P
yep, that's why the "Challenge" type games were invented... things like a 6 minute timer, a stock or only slightly modified race you've never played before, or a victory condition your race isn't well suited for (e.g. a low-growth race for the Senate).

it brings the level of your game up further, makes you stretch and learn even more... :D

[superdeluxe]

Hey all

I havent been here in a month, havent really had anymore questions.

I have defeated the game in senate mode, and also Antaran X mode, now I am trying to defeat it by beating up everyone.

I am on turn 1056, I have 464 planets, and my votes comprise about 52% of the entire voting population.

My question is, Is there anyway to make it easier to send large armada's into another star system? Right now, the way I do it is, click on ONE unit , then take the arrow pointer to the star I want it..and click on that.

Is there anyway I can click and drag mutiple units?

[pedxing]

you can shift-click in the TF selection box to select more than one unit, or to take a unit out of a selection.

double clicking on a TF in the selection box will select all TFs.

yeah?

[superdeluxe]

you can shift-click in the TF selection box to select more than one unit, or to take a unit out of a selection.

double clicking on a TF in the selection box will select all TFs.

yeah?


You gotta be kidding..I had to manually one by one select TF's to send :eek:

How does shift click work though, I've tried shift click and dragging down..but that just moves the screen up and down.

[SMELLJAB]

ahh, you don't need to shift click. its too hard, and you actually have to get the keyboard out.

hey anyone know how to get more leaders? I want 4 leaders asap.

Also, if I get my peeps to accept several trade agreements every turn, and they never get refused, does that give me a diplomatic bonus? When should I start to see results?

[superdeluxe]

Okay now I have done it.

I am by far the most powerful empire, but right now I am off and on warring with 5 empires. I have a about 12k ships in reserve, but I am quickly losing it.

I have beenusing peace accords/armistice, to keep at least 2-3 empires off of me at a time..but now it appears that all the empires are refusing any peace accords...

Help?

[pedxing]

You gotta be kidding..I had to manually one by one select TF's to send :eek:

How does shift click work though, I've tried shift click and dragging down..but that just moves the screen up and down.
the shift-click works like ctrl-click does in windows:

in no items are selected, it selects that item.

if items are already selected, it adds that item to the selection.

if the item is already part of a selection, the item is removed from the selection.

so to select multiple ships, you can either

a) shift-click on each TF you want to include in the selection, or

b) double-click first to select all, then shift-click to remove the ones you don't want from the selection.

i even think when the ship selection box comes up, all the ships are selected?

so (b) is probably what you want (without the starting double-click, since everything should already be selected) if you want to send most of the available TFs with minimal clickage?

[superdeluxe]

Does anyone know what pirate treasure does?

[SMELLJAB]

I have beenusing peace accords/armistice, to keep at least 2-3 empires off of me at a time..but now it appears that all the empires are refusing any peace accords...

Help?

Some empires you are at war with will actually fall in love with you. That is, the more planets you take, the more fleets you kill, their CB relations will improve. I think this has something to do with their peace-prosperity or limited, Total war setting.

If you don't see any empires' relationship meter change after one of your attacks, there is only one way out. I don't think you will find a diplomatic solution, so you'd better get some good military tech asap.

[SMELLJAB]

Does anyone know what pirate treasure does?
PIRATES STASH
A cache of gold, jewels and other valuables have been found here. These have been converted to AUs and the funds added to your treasury.

this is listed on the M:\InstallFiles\readme.txt in your moo3 play cd

[pedxing]

i think it's booty, that's what it is!

[cbb]

Well I've been playing the game for a couple of months now and have really come to love it. You could still fill a warehouse with the things I don't know, though, so any help on the following would be greatly appreciated:

1) What is the difference between the Causus Belli and Diplomatic Relations? Sometimes my CB with an empire is quite bad but the relations level is very good. What effect does this have?

2) In the game I'm playing right now, two planets I had colonized in the same system (and were somwhere around pop. 5; that is, fairly new but not brand new) suddenly, apparently without any announcement, were controlled by the Tachidi's empire. The Tachidi were nowhere near this system; they were about 8 systems away at the closest (and that path was blocked by a guardian system, so practically speaking they were dozens of turns away). The dominant races on the two planets were Phiagour and Rhea, no Tachidi in sight. I wasn't at war with the Tachidi, either, and there was no battle. So my question is: Huh?

3) Sometimes in space combat, even when they have nothing else nearby to shoot at, my ships simply let the enemy's missles hit them without firing at them. Is there something I'm doing wrong here?

4) Occasionally due to a blockade or starvation, I will lose control of a planet and it will turn into an outpost. I get how that works, but I've noticed that I can never seem to regain control of that planet, even when the blockade/famine is over, without sending a new colony ship (even setting migration there has no effect). Is that supposed to happen?

5) What's the meaning behind the weird diplo messages I'm receiving? I mean stuff like, "Hail xxxxx, destroyer of the just. One day I will rise up and you will know fear. You have proven an idiot ally, and we offer you warmest congratulations." They're praising me, I see, but should I be worried at all about their tone?

6) When playing with the Senate Victory off, or the 2/3 senate patch, is there any advantage to winning the majority of the votes and being Senate President?

7) What does the system tax do? And what is the tax rate listed on a planet's info panel (which is different from the tax rates listed on the Finance screen)?

Thanks in advance for any help here.

[Monkey Head]

1) turn help text speed to fast, and hover the mouse over each bar :P

2) possible rebellion...... you might have got sitrep notices if so.... im assuming they werent outposts, and the ai didnt popdrop on them..... oh, and you dont have to be at war for the ai to invade.... :P other than that, dont know, which isnt the answer you want.

3) PD systems arent 100% perfect. possibly they picked the missiles up too late to target them. try layers of pd weapons with differing ranges (eg hard beams and quark cannons) instead of 30 of one type..... and maybe imporve your sensor tech. the patch from bhuric that corrects a lot of the visibility problems is a must. this can also happen if you use the attack comand. use the patrol command until you get in close...

4) yes. even more liley to happen if the place is a red 2 hellhole.

5) the alien diplomats can be confusing. try using ostegos diplomod to expand thier range of phrases. unmodded they are severley constrained to a small statement bank that when combined do spew out garbage. you can till get by if you read the inflection carefully though. eg the example you give is begruding praise.

6) not really - senate president has no real bonus, but it can help elevate you to sole superpower status and make every one hate you more.

7) system taxes are distributed in the system the planet is in. kinda sensible. if you had 2 systems, a big one and a new small one. if you lived in bigsystem, you woulnt want all your tax to subsidise mr miner in smallsystem. i belive the tax rate screen in finances ets the rate that roy iss to aim for. of course roy can rise or lower this depending on the state of his planet... think of it as a target he should aim for. the fact you can change each planets tax individually is also a good thing - handy to give new colonies a kick start or to drop unrest.....

[Grimbear]

Well I've been playing the game for a couple of months now and have really come to love it. You could still fill a warehouse with the things I don't know, though, so any help on the following would be greatly appreciated:

1) <answered well by Monkey Head> ?

2) In the game I'm playing right now, two planets I had colonized in the same system (and were somwhere around pop. 5; that is, fairly new but not brand new) suddenly, apparently without any announcement, were controlled by the Tachidi's empire. The Tachidi were nowhere near this system; they were about 8 systems away at the closest (and that path was blocked by a guardian system, so practically speaking they were dozens of turns away). The dominant races on the two planets were Phiagour and Rhea, no Tachidi in sight. I wasn't at war with the Tachidi, either, and there was no battle. So my question is: Huh?

3) <answered well by Monkey Head> ?

4) <answered well by Monkey Head> ?

5) <answered well by Monkey Head> ?

6) <answered well by Monkey Head> ?

7) <answered well by Monkey Head> ?

Thanks in advance for any help here.
This is off the top of my head, and probably wrong, but it MIGHT be the case that you AND the (AI controlled) Tachidi discovered ONE or BOTH of the SAME magnates (Phiagour and Rhea) on the SAME turn, "assigning" them to BOTH of you until one of you (you or Tachidi) had a decided majority of either or both of these two races. If so, and IF the Tachidi-owned Phiagour/Rhea were FIRST to colonize (thereby giving them the majority?) then POSSIBLY, control of ALL planets colonized by a majority of the (now, solely belonging to the) Tachidi Phiagour and/or Rhea would transfer over to that empire(?). Or maybe, one of these races was NOT discovered first by you, but by the Tachidi, and colonized the planet in question through migration because it was close to their ideal habitat, eventually becoming the dominant population percentage, which would transfer (possibly?) planetary control over to the Tachidi. Or, as "JosEPh" warns against repeatedly I've repeatedly warned about having the Anti-Virus prog "on" while installing Moo3. Or any older game. It will scan the extraction process and cause corrupted files. Actually any Ad-Ware or Spy-Ware running in background can cause problems. Best solution is to disconnect from the Internet and shut down ALL progs running in the background and then do the Install. I've used XP Pro since I got Moo3 MH and discovered this almost immediately.
...? Since reading his warning, I have always disabled all my "anti-spy/ad" programs, but ONLY AFTER disabling my network card (I have a cable broadband, "always on" connection, and this is one way to absolutely turn it off, temporarily. I make sure to re-enable my protective software BEFORE re-enabling my network card. Actually, whenever I'm not actively on the internet, I disable the network card, to maximize resources and as a further security precaution. And no, I NEVER use the feature that allows remote-access of my computer {which would allow a "backdoor" for someone to possibly re-enable my network card (?) and re-connect me. If you can turn on a telephone answering machine that is "off" (call yourself, and let the machine hear 10 rings and if it has the feature, it will come on, even with the power button "off". Why not a computer? I don't have to know how, I just need to know that it's POSSIBLE.}, as this feature also serves as an open "doorway" for hackers, disguised as something else!)

[pedxing]

yeah, i dunno what could have cause it, other than revolt... but there should have been a few turns warning messages in the SitRep before unrest got that bad. :weird:

if we had a save game file we could look at, it would probably be easy to figure it out.

and in general, for everybody out there following along at home, if something completely strange and mysterious happens, it's usually a good idea to save the game, open up at least last turn's autosave, and save that too (heck, get the last couple of turns, while you're at it!)... because you just know we're gonna ask you for those saves when you ask us, "WTF?"

[superdeluxe]

So I was pretty much at war with everyone. The good thing now is My technology is about 3 levels higher than the next closest. Meaning I have the best shields/armor.

I have a strategy now of going into lightly defended systems, glassing that planet..then withdrawing. Although this only reduces them, and does not increase me. Its better than just stalemate after stalemate.

I have also gotten pretty lucky several times in glassin the planet that has the P07 moblization center built on.

I lost the last senate vote, 56-44%, because well, basically everyone voted for the Trillian empire, So now I am glassing planets, It should be shifting back to me to the point where I can vote for myself and still be the orion president.

[Monkey Head]

why glass the planets? if you can get fleets there, invade them. MUCH more profitable.

[superdeluxe]

why glass the planets? if you can get fleets there, invade them. MUCH more profitable.


I realize that, but I had been having a hard time...making sure I have enough 'battle' ships, but still have enough space for the troop carriers.

So usually I either, do not have enough battle ships to get the victory, or I have too many battle ships, get the victory, but some of my troop ships get left out, which means all I can do is unload some ordinace, so that my troops have a chance.

[pedxing]

i like having my troops arrive a turn or two after i've destroyed all the planetary bases in the system, and done a light dusting of bombardment on the mobilization center only.

with all resistance crushed, the number of combat TFs in the system can be reduced to 6-8, making room for 2-4 transport TFs to land each turn after that.

the rest of the fleet can move up to the next system(s), keeping inbound reinforcements occupied.

[Monkey Head]

yea thats the point i was going to make but got beaten to it. you cant drop troops before securing a system, which can tke a few turns. once you work out your own method of landing troops and taking planets, you probably will give up on glassing, apart from those pesky ithkul.

[pedxing]

i like a nice 1/4 bombardment, on the planet i think is the Mob Center, but that's the only time i ever drop anything but troops from orbit...

well, except in the very early game, when a scout might annoy an undefended colony by unloading it's waste tanks every turn, until driven off!

and ithkul aren't as bad as everybody makes them out to be. hard workers. really smart, too. just victims of our natural prejudice against slime-based organisms, really...

[Monkey Head]

the whole "eating my useful magnates" pisses me off... dont mind feeding the bottom 10% of my stock humans to them though. lol. is that too much like eugencis? or just natural selection :P

[superdeluxe]

i like having my troops arrive a turn or two after i've destroyed all the planetary bases in the system, and done a light dusting of bombardment on the mobilization center only.

with all resistance crushed, the number of combat TFs in the system can be reduced to 6-8, making room for 2-4 transport TFs to land each turn after that.

the rest of the fleet can move up to the next system(s), keeping inbound reinforcements occupied.


How do you figure out what planet has the moilization center.

and you cant pi ck out what planets you want to attack can you?

If you could go in, sneak attack, destroy the mobilization center, then it would be easy, cause they couldnt reinforce.

But unless you could a) find out where mobilization planet is and b)figure out how to attack the planet you want. Isnt that kind of hard.

[MisterPlow]

The mobilization center, in a fully-developed system, will be on the planet with the highest population. That's shown by how the AI always puts System Capitals in the planet with the highest population in your systems; conquer a system in reverse population order and you'll see what I mean.

As far as attacking the planet you want, there's a system view button or something like it [haven't played in a long while] on the combat options screen where you can select your target. It took me an embarrassingly long time to figure that one out!

[pedxing]

the other sneaky way you can usually tell is to go to the diplomacy screen, and make like you are going to demand a planet in that system from them... heck, might as well demand it while you are there, and give them the chance to save you the effort!

anyway, on the demand/exchange/gift list, the planets in each system are listed in the order in which they were settled, instead of in numerical order!

mob centers are always buildable on the first planet in a system one settles, if there's no system seat... and the first planet that's settled is usually the best, and has the most population, and gets assigned the system seat by the AI anyway.

if the "highest population" and "first settled" rules-of-thumb agree, you're probably looking at the mob center.

if those two rules suggest different planets? well, mistakes will be made, in wartime. :sour:

[Monkey Head]

useful tool.... especially if your enemies home system is open to attack early on. i took down a raa empire in about 5 trns real early on simply by taking thier home planet in the first turn of war. no mob centers at all, so no ships...... and im sure the associated unrest by no top level govt helped me.

[pedxing]

nice! :up:

[Lennier]

yea thats the point i was going to make but got beaten to it. you cant drop troops before securing a system, which can tke a few turns. once you work out your own method of landing troops and taking planets, you probably will give up on glassing, apart from those pesky ithkul.[pops in, puts 2 pennies on table]I'm with pedexing: conquer the Ithkul too![/pops back out]

[MisterPlow]

took down a raa empire in about 5 trns real early on simply by taking thier home planet in the first turn of war. no mob centers at all, so no ships...... Not that this situation arises very often but I am intrigued. I've lost my imperial capital early on due to Antaran spies in several games, so I'm sure the imperial capital doesn't provide mob center capability. But what does? Is your home world automatically allowed to launch starships? And, as it seems from the above, is that not transferable to other planets if you lose your home world?

[pedxing]

[pops in, puts 2 pennies on table]I'm with pedxing: conquer the Ithkul too![/pops back out]
yeah, the Itkul aren't bad, they're just misunderstood!

[Quinn]

I'm glad someone likes my nice Ithkul... 100% planets get the highest population, and they're an easy way of getting 100%, apart from those nasty 'orrible Bhry Enty things...glass 'em as soon as you can (although how you can glass something that isn't really there I don't know).

And my little trick of invading magnates and landing 1 SysCol (with 8 colony modules) per region of planet on uncolonised worlds is quite nice... You can do it with Starship Colony Ships too, but it doesn't seem to work quite as well.

[elm]

from what i've gathered so far test tubes and industry are useless if you don't have the MONEY (AUs) to transform them into PPs and RPs. Any planet that aims to generate PPs or RPs must have the AUs for it. How do you make a planet economicaly rich ? Mining and farming DEAs ? Starports ?

I belive the foundation of any succesfull empire is building economicaly viable planets. You need money(AU) to make use of industry (on big industry giants)
or test tubes on (small rich(AU) planets). Planets with no way of generating big AU's are useless.

Is there any guide out there focusing the development plans on Economic bloom ?

So far i've a few ideas on how to build a powerfull empire.


I. You need BIG PRODUCTION WORLDS to build your amies fast.

1. Must be BIG planets - population is a factor.
2. Must be RICH (AU's) planets - money is a factor.
3. Must be INDUSTRIALISED planets - industry is factor.
4. A balance must be achieved between INDUSTRY DEAs and Mining and/or
farming DEAs.
5 Starports must be fully developed(general for all planets - more AU empire wide).
6 In order to obtain best AUs per Mining and/or farming the world must be mineraly rich and/or "bio " rich.
7. Must achive low unrest without resorting to Military on Recreation DEAs
(do not produce AUs or INDUSTRY).
8. Research DEAs must also be avoided because they eat AUs for RP.
9. One GOV DEA will help with tax,unrest and production.
10. Taxes must be setup so that the big bucks produced on this planets remained and are best used on this planet.

II. RESEARCH

1. Research Points can be scattered so you can spread your Research DEA's across the galaxy.
2. You will need the BIG RICH worlds for INDUSTRY that lives SMALL RICH or BIG POOR (rich and poor in AU terms) worlds for research
3. Test tubes are no good if the planet doen't have the AUs to convert them into Research Points.
4. This means research worlds must also be specialised - Money Giving DEA's and Research DEA's.
5. If the world is enough u can squeeze in a GOV DEA.
6. BIG POOR worlds can be used for research for lack of a better purpose. You need more Mines/Farms in to give enough AU's to effectively burn the test tubes.

III. Food and Minerals -> this is automaticaly solved by I & II. In fact you might be left out with big surplusses.
As the Mining and Farming productivity of DEAs increases you might want to replace a few of them with industry or research DEA on a few key
worlds.


Those seem like valid plans. Now i'm working in translating them in DEV PLANS. Help wanted and apreciated :D.

[pedxing]

yeah that all sounds pretty reasonable, although i would point out that there are other considerations to taxes, other than keeping them low so that AU can be used locally by industrial giants.

once you've reached a steady-state, and are no longer settling new planets, then indeed Imperial taxes and Grants to Planets are no longer as useful.

but while there are still young planets that could use help bootstrapping themselves up, it can help to skim a little off the top of all you planets to accelerate their growth.

also, once you have multiple systems with multiple planets in them, System tax starts to be useful... especially if the System Seat is one of those big Industrial or Research worlds!

finally, make sure to turn off the "Gift to Empire" checkbox on planets that you want to be powerhouses or tax bases for their local Seats.

on the subject of trade, it's little known that the value of trade with other empires depends not only on how different they are from you, but also how close you are to each other.

maximum starport revenue comes from trade with a different species living on a planet in the same system as the starport.

this actually makes intersettlement with your neighbors, settling planets in their systems and allowing them to settle planets in yours, a good thing rather than a "how do i keep them from stealing my planets?!?" problem.

anyway, for development plans, i've got a good technique. it take some time, but if you've got a clear goal in mind it's worth the investment... and once you've done it you can save the result off and use it over and over.

the main tool is the "Autorun to turn" option, on the galaxy configuration page, it's also nice to have the Gerra's wait-screen remover patch installed, so that you can watch your resource/production levels, as the game runs.

so, what you do is pick a target turn level, say 80 turns. pick your race, galaxy config, and set for 80 turns. on the first turn, set your Zoning Policy, touch nothing else, hit Turn, and watch the show.

when it ends, go to the Planets list, sort by Population or Industry or Income or whatever, and set the Details to Classification. that way, you can see which classes of planets are ranking the highest in which sort orders.

open up some likely looking planets, and check their DEA layouts, and how well they've improved them. is the unmolested viceroy making the kind of choices you would like to see? if not (as is likely), is it making the same kinds of mistakes on all the planets that share a class? or (more likely on the first run) is it making the same sorts of mistakes on all planets?

then pick a single plan (All Planets is the natural one, after the first run), and fill it out with what you would like to see more of, and save the Plan. then restart a new game, same initial conditions, but this time in addition to setting Zoning, load the Plan before hitting Turn.

when it's done, repeat the analysis. did the plan make a difference? sure, things will still not be what you want, but are they less generally stupid? can you find a class of planet where the same types of stupid are repeated across many planets sharing the same class? then add add a plan for that class.

repeat, repeat, repeat, adding one or two increasingly specific plans each time.

if there is some thing you would like most planets to have a little of, but not for them to focus on during their entire development (like Gov't), the New plan is nice to use, since it wears off soon after the planet starts up.

Secondary and Frontier settings are useful for addressing resource crunches that you observe happening while the game is autorunning. i often see one crunch, mineral or food, come before the other.

most of the planets you settle early on will be Secondary, and then the number of Frontier planets will rise. so whichever crunch comes first (for me, it's usually minerals), raise the priority of that resurce on Secondary planets, and assign the Frontier planets to help with the other resource.

it sounds like you already know what you want to do with your Mineral Rich and High Biodiversity planets, so if after setting Secondary and Frontier you see them still deviating from your desires, this would be a good time to set those plans.

also, take a look at the planets in you home system, other than your homeworld. if you would like to see some changes in particular for them, set the Core plan. if this creates unwanted behavior on homeworld, then set the Sweet Spot plan to counteract the effects.

let's see, that's:

All Planets and New,
Secondary and Frontier,
Mineral Rich and High Biodiversity,
Core and Sweet Spot...

that leaves you room for 4 more.

on your next run, look at the top planets in each of the sort orders you are interested in... Population, Income, Industry, Research, Mining, Bioharvest, and see if there are any classifications that aren't already covered.

probably Large and Mineral Poor?

maybe Low Biodiversity or Small?

do they show any systematic problems in their development? you know what to do...

oh, and if you are feeling really rigorous, and have the patience to run a few times at each stage of the process, instead of just once, it might make you feel really confident about things if you write down the ending resource/consumption, industry/production, and reserach and everything.

are the totals fairly consistent between runs, with the same plans?

is there a general trend of improvement, as you added plans?

the former physics lab TA in me wants to suggest making nice tables in a graph-paper lab notebook... :hah:

anyway, first thing's first: Zoning Strategy!

should you be Balanced, Natural, or Specialized?

[Monkey Head]

personally i always specialise... each to thier own.

[elm]

race growth comparison


http://www.peddroelm.go.ro/


Other than that choose big high biodivesity(fertilty) planets. Put money into biolocal research -> it will give you direct growth increase(cloning centers) or indirect by boosting biodivesity->fertility->pop growth and max population.

[Aeaea]

Forgive the newbie question, but is there a way to make your scout ships autoexplore the galaxy for you (i.e., without manually setting up each mission)? Seems ot me when I played the game a few years ago there was a way to do it -- if so I don't see how.

Also, I tried Gerra's Autorun Tutorial patch and while it works (turns on and off the games autorun ability for a set number of turns), the autorun doesn't seem to move any ships. Does anyone ever use this patch or did the ship moving capability never work?

-Aeaea

[pedxing]

nope, each mission you have to set up. the sitrep report when the new system is reached are a handy reminder to give the scout new orders.

[Aeaea]

Does anyone use these DEAs on a regular basis? It appears from what I've read that most people typically populate their planets as follows:

- Lots of Industry
- Lots of Research
- 1 Government (on worlds 5 or bigger)
- Enough Mines and Bioharvests (on rich and diverse worlds only to keep up with demands)

The following questions are meant to be practical, not academic since I know there are some hypotheical situations where other DEAs could come in handy.

1) Do 2 Government DEAs make sense on large (size 9+) industrial worlds (i.e., is the industrial bonus brought by 2 Government DEAs better than having another industrial DEA -- the AI seems to do this)?

2) Do Recreational DEAs make sense as a general tactic --for some governments and race picks-- to generate lots of AUs and reduce the monies spent on unrest? The AI doesn't seem to build them in my latest Strawberry game.

3) Are Military DEAs only useful on frontier worlds (or anywhere)? Are there any benefits to have them anywhere else? Military DEAs let one build more orbitals (if stacked) and allows you look out further to see startships approaching. Do they do anything else that makes them really worthwhile? The AI doesn't seem to build them in my latest Strawberry game.

[JosEPh]

Mil DEAs also help with Unrest reduction. Actaully I've found they do more that Rec DEAs in this area. But Rec DEAs seem to have a slightly longer reach, iirc.

Having 1 Mil DEA in every system will keep the AI from surprising you with that monster Fleet out of nowhere.

Large Planets with A Rec DEA and a diversified pop/race mix helps keep the "tensions" down. Especially when you use magnates. Actually 2 or 3 Rec Deas in a size 5 planets or larger system will also help adjacent systems reduce "tensions". Albeit sometimes the effects are smaller than one would hope for.

On a large planet 2 Gov't DEAs add to Industy's efficiency and they also provide a boost to the planets defence from invasions. I advocate 1 mandatory Gov't DEA for every planet size 3 and above. I will use 2 or 3 for size 8 and above.

This all comes from gameplay and eXperience and not doing *tests*.

JosEPh :)

[ac_snowman]

1) Do 2 Government DEAs make sense on large (size 9+) industrial worlds (i.e., is the industrial bonus brought by 2 Government DEAs better than having another industrial DEA -- the AI seems to do this)?

Yes, eventually. In the planet's early stages it won't seem like much of a help. The effectiveness is dependant upon two things...population and improvements. Once the population is large enough to start optimizing the performance of the Gov't and Ind DEA's you'll notice a more pronounced effect. You also need to research some of the Gov't DEA improvements. If you miss these in your tech tree your Gov't DEA's will be severely limited.
There has been some argument that another Industry DEA is more effective, but I haven't found this to be the case. I've seen 40% and 20-30% bonuses from the 1st and 2nd Gov't DEA's respectively. With as many industries as you'll have on a planet that size, that's a much bigger production boost.

2) Do Recreational DEAs make sense as a general tactic --for some governments and race picks-- to generate lots of AUs and reduce the monies spent on unrest? The AI doesn't seem to build them in my latest Strawberry game.

3) Are Military DEAs only useful on frontier worlds (or anywhere)? Are there any benefits to have them anywhere else? Military DEAs let one build more orbitals (if stacked) and allows you look out further to see startships approaching. Do they do anything else that makes them really worthwhile? The AI doesn't seem to build them in my latest Strawberry game.

I'll answer these together...in Strawberry it depends. Check your empire's government type in the encyclopedia. Some government types render these totally worthless, some will make one type really effective. If your race isn't prone to unrest than you probably don't need either. Most of the time I only really used them if I had a magnate or conquered race that was more prone to belly aching than my primary race.

If you switch from Strawberry to one of the new MUU:BAA mods, Apricot or Boysenberry, than the answer is different. Pedxing has made these much more useful. However, it still depends on your gov't type.

[Quinn]

The other thing to remember with Gov/Rec/Mil DEAs is diminishing returns.

From DEAtables.txt
1 0.75 0.66667 0.5625 0.5 0.4417 0.4 0.3625 0.33333 0.33333

IIRC
1 DEA works at 100%
2 DEAs of the same type on the same planet are both at 75% effectiveness
3 DEAs are all at 67% effectiveness
4 DEAs are all at 56%
5 DEAs are all at 50%, etc.

If you work this thru, it is the equivalent of the first being fully effective, then the 2nd and 3rd are at half-power, and the 4th and 5th are quarter-power.

Essentially never build more than 5 Gov/Mil or Rec on the same planet (and the 4th and 5th are very weak)

Q

[pedxing]

If you switch from Strawberry to one of the new MUU:BAA mods, Apricot or Boysenberry, than the answer is different. Pedxing has made these much more useful.
i sure tried!

one of the cool things about Mil and Rec that Gov doesn't have is outreach effects that increase in range with Capacity improvements.

Gov always just affects the entire planet.

Rec starts out affecting the whole planet, and Mil starts off affecting just the region it is in, but with Cap improvements their effects can extend to the entire system, or even into adjacent systems, if you can acquire all the Cap techs.

the problem was, the techs that gave system level and adjacent system outreach were up past the mid-30's in tech level, so nobody ever really saw them, or they had given up on Mil and Rec as useless earlier in the game and never built them.

as with resource and production deas, the unrest deas have both Capacity and Efficiency techs, and the product of Cap and Eff gives the effect.

so what i did was to reorder the Cap and Eff techs, so that instead of alternating one and then the other, now the outreach expanding Cap techs are front-loaded into the progression.

the result is that outreach Capacity expands faster than Efficiency at first, and then Efficiency catches up if you are playing Sole Survivor or some thing.

[Aeaea]

OK, thanks for the help. So it does look like people actually use multiple Govs per planet and do in fact regularly use Rec and Mil DEAs -- though I now understand that the latter two apparently don't really provide their greatest benefit until later in the (unmodded or Strawberry) game.

I'll do the math and figure where the minimum number Industrial DEAs make more than one Gov DEA most effective.

[pedxing]

one of the problems that people had when testing to make sure that this all works right was that if you have one Gov dea, and it's built all the way up with buildings, and then add a second Gov dea, the result is a drop in the total Gov effect.

once the second Gov starts getting built up, though, the combined effect will be greater than the maxed-out single Gov... it just takes a little time.

along those lines, you may also have to take into account the buildings that are available for Gov vs Industry.

it's possible that depending on the techs you have, the second Gov may not be worth it, even if it was built-up all the way, compared to another built-up Industry... but if you had a different set of improvement techs, the balance of the calculation might change?

for example, if you specialized in researching Social and Econ, but not so much Physical, you might have more Gov improvements available than Industry ones?

edit:

thinking about this a little more, the number of Industry improvements shouldn't matter... the fractional production increase from another built-up Industry depends only on the number of Industry you already have.

the fractional production increase from another Gov dea, however, would depend not only on how many you already have, but also on the buildings you can build there.

so, for each number of Industry you have, there will probably be a threshold level of Gov techs that make the second Gov worthwhile... and the more Industry deas you already have, the lower that threshold should be.

for large enough numbers of existing Industry deas, there may also be a additional tech thresholds for adding a third or fourth gov?

hmmm, and there may be a lower bound on the number of Industry deas, below which no amount of tech would make the first Gov worthwhile? ;)

wow. fun problem. let us know if you need any help with details of the calculation...

[Aeaea]

How long do you keep migration turned on for newly colonized worlds? Are there diminishing returns (e.g., unemployment due to lack of enough constructed DEAs) to worry about? I've picked leaving migration "on" for newly colonized worlds until they reach a population of 10 (no reason, just picked it) -- or until it turns itself off for small worlds. Is there any conventional wisdom on how long it makes sense to keep it on?

Note: I don't do this for magnate worlds that I want to keep pure.

[pedxing]

i keep it on until 10, or 1/4 of the planet's maximum, whichever comes first.

i'm trying to mod now though, so that the migration AI does what i want before i tell it to... ;)

i've found the famous first post to the Migration (and Magnates) (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3644956&postcount=1) thread is really useful for understanding the causes of migration, but it doesn't say much about the longterm effects of ehnanced migration...

[Aeaea]

Thanks for answering my last posts! I appreciate the collective wisdom and experience on this forum.

So how about those Outposts and Orbitals (I'm still on Strawberry) -- are there good strategies for using them? It seems to me that they seem too limited to be worth the time and expense of creating them.

Outposts -- They don't seem to form colonies very fast and while cheaper than Colony Ships, they aren't -that much- cheaper. So using them as effective seeds to build out an empire quickly in the early game doesn't make sense because one doesn't have much population for migratory purposes. Perhaps in a huge galaxy with few AI, it may be more effective, but I haven't played one of those games. Later in the game, when it's easy to build colony ships, outposts seem pointless.

Orbitals -- These tend to go obsolete fairly quickly and it's difficult to justify their cost to get enough of them in place to hold off a surprise invasion. Starships, even though more expensive, can be moved to places where they are useful even after they become obsolete. It seems more practical to keep fleets stationed at choke points to maintain control -- though I suspect this tends to make empires on the other side of those choke points nervous. Like system ships, orbitals decrease piracy and I expect they reduce unrest on planets too -- but unlike system ships, they only protect a single planet -- again limiting the utility of their cost.

Am I missing something important? The AI builds orbitals all the time (and perhaps outposts too)?

[pedxing]

Outpost ships are most effective for fast breeding races, like Bugs or Lizards.

they are more useful for everybody when used in system ship form. once you already have a planet in the system, if there are marginal worlds that don't deserve the full attention of a Colony ship, you can pop out a System Outpost, and then migrate the new planet up from there.

when playing as Tachidi, i like to put a x5 build of System Outposts in my homeworld's queue early on, and just spatter my home system with eggs.

in any case, turning migration targeting on for the outposts you want to turn into colonies makes them grow much faster.

as for orbitals, if there are enough moons, and if their vintage is recent enough, their combined fire of the orbitals can make the difference in a battle.

try attacking two planets in a system, one with 3 orbitals and the other with 12, and you'll see what i mean (assuming your force isn't overwhelming!).

the AI unfortunately, never builds Outpost ships, making them something of a player exploit... something i'm currently wrestling with in my mod.

[Quinn]

I like using outposts to get that free Mil DEA, which holds off unrest on the new world for a short while, and I agree that plonking 5xSysOutpost in the home planet early on is very useful for seeding your home system.

As for Orbitals, I've Bhruic'ed mine so there's 20 round each planet. And as the AI use them so much I have upped mine from 1.5 capacity to 2x to give them that extra little punch. For my own orbitals I tend to go for mainly fighters & pd with a smaller amount of missiles and 1 or 2 big direct fire as that seems to make sense. It does mean fighter-interceptor patch is a must though, and I always seem to lose a couple of orbitals in every big defensive battle, but that's easy to replace.

Of course the AI is limited in that it never scraps and replaces orbitals, so when you come to attck an Ai homeworld the bases are usually prehistoric.

Q

[Aeaea]

Good tips (about Outposts and Orbitals), I'll use them! Thanks!

I've seen various posts about using LR and SR TFs, some people like them and others never use them it seems. To use them effectively, must one control combat manually?

When I use these TF on "Watch," they seem to be magnets for missiles and fighters -- dying quickly. I've toyed with the idea to create cheap drone LR TFs with lots of PD to draw fire away from my core carriers and missle-ships, but I don't know if that makes sense (perhaps it's better to just load up more PD ships in my CV and IF armadas and keep them all huddled).

My question is how to use the LR and SR TF more effectively -- or are they still kind of broken (i.e., in Strawberry)? Or, must one control things manually to get good use out of them -- because I can see how they could be very helpful to mop up after the missile-ships have exhausted their racks and there are only a few things left to take care of.

I haven't read the Space Combat Mechanics Guide in years (I remember it being difficult to parse because early patch changes fixed some of the problems and altered strategies). If it is still relevant, however, just let me know and I'll spend the time to read it again.

I've also seen people mention that they like armadas consisting of only 1 or 2 hybrid ship designs with each having LF, SR, IF, CV and RC capabilities. Is this the "generally preferred" way of expert shipbuilding and deployment nowadays?

[Strifeguard]

Sorry you had to wait so long for a reply, but the answer to this question is...complicated.

The SR and LR TFs tend to act like fighter and missile "magnets" because the AI assumes that these TFs are packed with big guns that will tear through their ships if allowed to get within firing range.

The issue with creating cross-class ships has to do with how the AI manages your TFs in combat.

CV and IF TFs will launch fighters/missiles and then fly around in a slow circular patrol to stay out of combat. LR will initially charge into combat, but then begin to maneuver to keep at the edge of weapons' range, trying to take advantage of longer range against SR weapons. SR meanwhile will charge right in and keep as close to the enemy as possible. (I don't recall how Reacon TFs act as I haven't built one in some time, but I suspect it's similar to SR).

Frequently players will create either multi-role ships or off-classification ships in order to take advantage of how the AI treats them.

For example, it might be better for missile ships to behave like LR rather than IF as closing on enemy TFs reduces the amount of time the enemy has to shoot missiles down. Thus some players will design "LR" ships to be full of missiles (or fighters).

One final note, if you notice that your LR and SR TFs are getting torn up by fighters/missiles, it might be because they're being given the "attack" command. The attack command tells the TF to fire ALL weapons on an enemy TF, meaning that Light/PD mounted weapons may stop shooting at missiles/fighters in order to fire on an enemy TF instead.

Try using the "patrol" command instead. Just "patrol" towards the enemy, but don't hit "attack" until you're in range. Just remember to switch to "patrol" again when additional missile volleys launch or you'll fall into the same trap of having nothing to shoot them down with.

[pedxing]

also, massed fire by multiple TFs to protect each other is key to defense against missile and fighter swarms.

if you only have, say, two LR/SR TFs, they will jump out in front of everybody, become big targets, and get creamed because the other TFs can't protect them with massed defensive PD fire.

but if you have, say, eight LR/SR TFs, they will all advance together, and may do a fair job of sticking together as they approach. if any one of them is swarmed, all the nearby ones should respond with PD fire.

if done correctly, you can wipe out each wave of flotsam as it approaches, and close with the enemy carriers and missile boats quite effectively (especially if they have reduced system speed).

concentrating on either IF/CV or SR/LR seems like a good strategy.

a 50/50% mix seems like it doesn't have enough of either type to be effective.

this is all "mission ship" strategy though... "multi-role ships" i've never really used, since i like the flavor of using mission-specific ships.

[JosEPh]

Try using the "patrol" command instead. Just "patrol" towards the enemy, but don't hit "attack" until you're in range. Just remember to switch to "patrol" again when additional missile volleys launch or you'll fall into the same trap of having nothing to shoot them down with.


I'm glad somebody remembered that "Patrol" is a command that needs to be mastered. It's crucial for effective Player Controlled Space Combat. Over 5000+ Controlled SC in one game will teach it to you. ;)

JosEPh :)

[Aeaea]

Again, thanks all for the input on TFs!

Rather that hijack your PD vs Rocket chassis thread in the main Strategy/Gameplay forum, pedxing, you said that "the community consensus on the different fighter chassis options seems clear: Interceptors give a better result than SCF, pound for pound."

I agree based on the damage/space numbers, but does this also hold for dogfights? Granted I haven't played many games yet, but I seemed to notice the SCF (pound for pound) does remarkably better in dogfights against Interceptors -- is my experience wrong or just a coincidence? I haven't done any detailed testing.

Another thing I've wondered about is Ion Cannons -- the game text says it doesn't do hull damage, just interrupts electronics (whatever that means). Is this true? If so, it doesn't seem like a good weapon if it can't force a kill.

One of these days I'm going to have to become more familiar with the spreadsheets so I can look this stuff up, but so far I'd rather spend my extra time on reading game tips on this forum. :-)

[pedxing]

i don't know if SCFs are really inferior to Interceptors...

it just seems to be the consensus. :(

i'm not sure myself about ion cannons, either... it may just be flavor text?

[Quinn]

I thought the advantage to SCF was that they have better HP, shields and armour than Int, so they last longer in combat - not sure though.

I think Ion cannons not damaging armour was something that has lasted from MoO2, but doesn't actually work that way so they just have naturally high AP and Shield-penetration making them damn effective.

Q

[Aeaea]

Thanks again for answering my questions.

I am having trouble getting my transports to show up on the invasion screen (using Strawberry -- 16 TFs per battle, I think) when I have more than 10 TFs in a battle. Sometimes they show up sometimes not. Are there any tricks to make sure I can get this to work with 15 battle + 1 transport TFs in a planet attack?

Also, does experience of the troops and racial ground combat abilities make much difference against a 2x or more troop number advantage? I know there are lots of variables but overall (putting efficiency aside), will troop strength in numbers 'usually' win the day? I know troop type does seem to make a big difference, I'm just wondering about experience and racial traits.

Are there recommended strategies for invasions (besides getting lucky by picking the right ground tactic)? Any good threads on this I can read?

Thanks,

-Aeaea

[pedxing]

only having 15 battle TFs will work, if your limit is 16 TFs total.

if you have more TFs in the system than the total limit, the ones that get included may or may not be the ones you want.

[Strifeguard]

Also, does experience of the troops and racial ground combat abilities make much difference against a 2x or more troop number advantage? I know there are lots of variables but overall (putting efficiency aside), will troop strength in numbers 'usually' win the day? I know troop type does seem to make a big difference, I'm just wondering about experience and racial traits.

Are there recommended strategies for invasions (besides getting lucky by picking the right ground tactic)? Any good threads on this I can read?

I don't have much experience with racial traits (I always play stock Humans) but I do have some ground combat recommendations to make based upon my playing experience/the collective knowledge of these boards:

IIRC, and unless it's been changed through a mod that I don't know about, you should almost always pick "Surprise" or "Ruse" as your tactic, as these will never cause your troops to recieve a "bonus" of less than 100 (unless of couse, the tactic fails, but that can happen with any tactic).

The trade-off appears to be (and I have nothing to back this up except for playing experience) that these tactics will only cause your troops to advance slowly, while more costly tactics (Sweep and Massed Assault come to mind) may cost you but will also cause a rapid advance across the planet.

I have also found that experienced troops make a huge difference both directly and indirectly in combat. I have been able to make *very slow* gains (1 region a turn) with a numerically smaller, but more expereinced force (outnumbered 2-to-1, experienced and crack vs recruits and verterans) using the "Surprise" tactic. However, this is also with stock-humans, and a 2-level average tech edge, so gains might be much greater if some racial ground combat traits kicked in, or worse if on equal or lesser tech footing.

The indirect effect of experience is much more valuable IMHO, as it allows you to land larger armies with the same number of TFs in combat. Experienced armies hold more troops, but still take up only 1 TF. Since most of us have noticed that there is definitely a bonus to numerical superiority, being able to achieve that without taking up valuable combat TF slots is a huge benefit to using experienced troops.

Hope some of this helps.

[Aeaea]

only having 15 battle TFs will work, if your limit is 16 TFs total.

if you have more TFs in the system than the total limit, the ones that get included may or may not be the ones you want.

Hmmm... well that doesn't seem to always work for me. I'm carefull to count. I've even had times (invading the New Orions) with 13 battle task forces and 5 Transport TF -- but none of the Transports show up for invasions, then next turn they're all there. One thing that just occurred to me (I'll need to check) is perhaps there is a logistics timing problem, i.e., moving some battle TF out to make room for the Transports moving in could confuse things... maybe that's what's happening?

Thanks too to Strifeguard for your info on troop experience.

Oh, and while we're on the topic of invasions, how does one go after a Guardian? Once defeated, I can invade the planet with the Guardian special -- but when I tried (under my control with no bombardment), I got a DirectX error. There were no troops there... is this normal? I'd love to find an Antaren X but don't know if it just happens occasionally after defeating the Guardian or if I have to invade to have a chance to find one?

[pedxing]

there shouldn't be anything to invade in guardian systems... you just settle them, once the guardian is gone.

anyway, your transport problem is freaking me out. :eek:

[JosEPh]

I've even had times (invading the New Orions) with 13 battle task forces and 5 Transport TF -- but none of the Transports show up for invasions, then next turn they're all there.

This depends upon Initiative and wether you picked Assault Planet, Attack, or Defend prior to combat.

Also did the transports Arrive in the system the same turn as the Fighting TFs? If the Transports have slower stardrives they will not arrive the same time as the regular TFs. You may have sent all 18 TFs from a system at the same time but if the TFs have ships with different levels of star drive the slowest star drive is the speed that the whole TF will travel. It may be 1 turn for your fastest to *jump* to the system you want to invade/attack but for an older ship it may take 2 turns or more to arrive.

JosEPh :)

[Aeaea]

Yes, I use Assault Planet to attack. The Transports are there with the rest of the fleet (with 0 ETA) after the battle. Unless there is a problem with moving TF in and out of the battle zone (i.e., from and to other systems) to make room for my Transports, I don't know what's going on. This has happened several times in my current game, and I think it's unlikely that I choose "Intercept Fleet" by mistake that often. The battle always happens and the Transports aren't destroyed -- just nothing available to invade with.

I think my question was answered -- invasions should always be an option with 15 or less TF plus 1 or more Transport TF. So either I'm doing something wrong, there's another game dynamic going on, it's a bizarre PC emulator bug on my Mac, or just dumbass user error.

Thanks!

[JosEPh]

The AI also has a Choice in Combat. In the case of the NO they will have a higher Initiative than the player for most of the game. If you choose Assault and they choose Intercept with their Higher Initiative the combat will be in Intercept not your choice of Assault.

This can also happen when you go against other races/AI who may have higher tech levels than you incorporated into their ship designs/planetary defences/etc. It will definitely happen when you have an Ally present.

While not documeted well, if at all, Initiative is used in Space Combat as well as Ground Combat.

In the case of the NO you will have to destroy all their Star TFs and get them down to System TF before you can Invade. And they will pull out their Reserves in defending their Orion HW system. So expect a long series of SC before you can Invade.

JosEPh :)

[Aeaea]

Aha! Thanks JosEPh. I think that does explain what I've been seeing. There have been times when I've had allies present when I've missed some invasions (though I doubt these allies had as high a Tech Level as my ships do -- but possibly), surely the NO were much nearer my level.

And yes it took awhile to successfully assimmilate the NO into my empire. Now that it's done, there doesn't seem like much in the way of me taking over. I have several TF groups leapfrogging over each other to gobble up the remainder of the galaxy. My biggest problem is generating troops fast enough to keep up. At least I found the secret to batteloids on one of the NO systems, so hopefully that will improve efficiency.

Next I think I'll start learning how to control combat myself istead of watching the interesting ones like a coward. I hope it isn't too frustrating -- I've always been afraid that by the time I've set up my attack plan and put the proper ships on patrol and launched the missiles & fighters that the battles will be lost.

No matter though, I'm looking forward to learning how to do it.

-Aeaea

[pedxing]

the first key to controlling combat (there are others) is to learn how to use the camera control keys to rotate and adjust the pitch of your view.

if you view the combat top-down, you will be in scrolling hell. but if you adjust the pitch so that you are viewing the battle closer to edge-on, you will be able to see everything going on at once.

once you are looking more edge-on, rotation becomes the thing that lets you decide between things separated and compressed. when you are looking top-down, rotation lets you put the opposing ships on each side of the screen.

the camera keys can be practiced during Watched combat.

once your fingers know where the keys are, you will be ready to start learning Controlled combat! :up:

[JosEPh]

Over 5000+ Controlled SC in Evon 1.2.5 alone taught me much. I only use Watch or AI Controlled when I have overwhelming odds any more.

A current player is complaining about doing 10-40 SCs a turn. But what they fail to realize is that for the Victory Setting of Sole Survivor this IS what you Will do to win. Then it boils down to when to Invade and when to Glass.

If you don't want SC or as little as possible choose the Senate Victory.

Even if you Choose Antaran X Victory you Will need to learn SC.

And the more you learn how to *controll* SC, the more you will understand the game mechanics behind it (SC).

JosEPh ;)

[Vitold]

I'm new here, so:
hello Atarians ;)

English is not my native language so please be forgiving.

In the Economics 101 (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273336&page=2) thread there are sentences of Tom Hughes:

The ratio of (AUs produced from using minerals : AUs from rare byproducts) is determined by the mineral richness of the planet. As you can see the bonus from rare minerals is trivial for Very Poor planets but is very significant for planets that are Very Rich

The question is:
What are those "rare byproducts" and "rare bioharvest". It's not about "Planetary Specials" right?
How can I tell that on some planet's region there are rare minerals or plants?

I'll be grateful for answer.

[Fishers of Men]

Vitold,

"Rare Plants, Rare Gems, etc." are planetary specials. They appear in one of the regions on that planet and only effect that region. Some planetary specials effect the entire planet. Go to the Planetary Infrastructure screen where all the regions are displayed and you see which region the special is located. It should be right below the symbols for mountains, plains, etc. A special that effects that whole planet is listed above Region 1. Click with your mouse on the "special" and information about it will appear in the display box on the right. It will tell you how DEAs you construct there will be effected. There are negative specials, too.

I hope this is helpful and welcome to the forum.

FoM

[Vitold]

Thx for answer FoM :)
I'm not sure if I'd put it clear enough. I know about planetary specials.
Please read Tom Hughes's post here:
(quote from "Economics 101" thread)
http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273336&page=2

3) AU’s FROM RARE BYPRODUCTS
This represents any exotic/rare minerals (like gold, gems, etc) found during the mining process and gives a bonus to AU’s produced by the mine without affecting its normal output.

The formula is: AUs = minerals produced * mineral richness factor * 4 * race pick
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This formula is illustrated below assuming a mining DEA with only it’s base efficiency:

__________Very Poor______Poor_____Abundent(average)______Rich_______Very Rich
Plain_________1____________1____________2________________3____________5
Broken_______1____________2____________3________________5____________8
Mountain_____2____________3____________5________________8____________12

times

__________Very Poor______Poor_____Abundent(average)______Rich_______Very Rich
_____________1____________2____________3________________5____________8

times
tuning variable of 4 * race pick
gives a result of

__________Very Poor______Poor_____Abundent(average)______Rich_______Very Rich
Plain_________4___________8____________24_______________60___________160
Broken_______4___________16___________36_______________100__________256
Mountain_____8___________24___________60_______________160__________384

The ratio of (AUs produced from using minerals : AUs from rare byproducts) is determined by the mineral richness of the planet. As you can see the bonus from rare minerals is trivial for Very Poor planets but is very significant for planets that are Very Rich (being equal to the AU’s earned from consuming all the minerals as food – the max price for minerals).

The main purpose of the rare mineral bonus(and a similar bonus to bioharvesting) is to give an incentive to place mining or bioharvesting DEAs on planets with very good regions for these DEAs regardless of the need for the minerals or bioharvest they produce. As the game progresses the need for mineral and bioharvest DEAs will diminish and I don’t want these DEAs to become rather useless like farmers did late game in MOO2. This rare bonus will allow mining DEAs to be viable choices for planets with good mineral richness even late in the game and especially desirable when the need for minerals is significant.


Did Tom wrote about planetary specials here, or about some other mysterious "rare byproducts" which You discover later in the game? Cause in descriptions about planetary specials there isn't nothing suggesting that they're influence AUs production.

Quote from manual about planetary specials:

RARE GEMS
Several rare and very pure crystals can be found in this region, making it ideal for research. Trade revenue is increased as well.

Increases Spaceport DEA Efficiency by 650%
Increases Research DEA Efficiency by 50%

Number of Turns until Depletion of this Special is between 10 and 75

RARE METALS
Several sources of extremely rare metals can be found in this region, which makes research more efficient. Trade revenue is increased as well.

Increases Spaceport DEA Efficiency by 200%
Increases Research DEA Efficiency by 200%

Number of Turns until Depletion of this Special is between 25 and 150

RARE PLANTS
Rare plants types can be found in this region, increasing research efficiency. Trade revenue is increased as well.

Increases Spaceport DEA Efficiency by 300%
Increases Manufacturing DEA Efficiency by 100%
Increases Research DEA Efficiency by 400%



I'm still confused. Please help.

[Quinn]

Ah...

Bioharvest DEAs and Mining DEAs produce basic raw materials and rare byproducts or luxury items that are automatically sold off and gives the planet extra income.

Things like gold and gems which are sold to jewelers, or luxury foodstuffs an things like Pearls found in Oysters.

Basically these just give the planet a bit of extra income and you don't need to worry about it.

Q

[Fishers of Men]

I believe Quinn is right about this type of bonus. In the Tom Hughes post, he seems to be talking about an additional financial bonus of AUs, over and above the increase in minerals or food, produced in the regions with a planetary special. Like Tom stated, later game technology increases minerals and food from their respective DEAs, so you have less need for that many DEAs. Most of us have learned to rip the surplus DEAs out and replace them with others, like research. Doing that, though, could have a side effect of losing the AU bonus.

This could give you an small opportunity for an strategic economic decision for your empire. I personally don't mind the micro-management of this type, but some do. In the latest Mod by Pedxing, she added some late game techs to manage the surpluses for you. This is good, too.

FoM

[Vitold]

That's what I wanted to know.

Thank You very much :)

[Vitold]

Fiew more questions from newbie.
(I'm playing with 1.25 patch and Bhruic's fixes/mods.)

1. Is point defence working correct now or still I've got to have missiles onboard? Cause one missile rack with 20 missiles (on each PD ship) is a huge waste of space (I found that advice somewhere here).
2. What's happening when ECM and ECCM are on one ship? Do they effects interfere? (are they canceling each other?). I found many opinions about it but don't know if they're outdated or not.
3. Is the ship with ECCM more visible or more easy to hit?
4. Does AI use ECCM now? Will it give me to much advantage if I'll be using ECMs?
5. If I'll put more ECMs in one ship, does they effects multiple? (ECCM and FocusDetArrays also)

I know that probably all answers are on the forum but it's hard to tell, for me, what's out of date. So please help :o

[Strifeguard]

1.2.5 sorta-kinda fixes PD, but if you have all of Bhruic's patches and mods (notably the "Visibility" patch) then PD should be completely fixed and you don't need any of the clumsy work-arounds (like a 20-rack pd missile).

Just remember to use PD sensibly! 1 PD-Mounted unmoddified laser won't be able to shoot down a whole wing of armored and shielded interceptors.

ECM and ECCM are also both working again (via the visibility patch). It makes sense to have both on the same ship because ECM makes it harder for the enemy to see you, while ECCM cancels out your opponents (not yours) ECM. If you just include ECM, then you might not be able to see/hit your opponent, and if you just include ECCM then your opponent will have an easier time seeing and hitting you.

ECCM does not affect your opponent's variables determining whether or not they can see you in any way.

The AI uses the "autodesign" feature on all its ships, and as autodesign installs both ECM and ECCM, it's fair to say that the AI is making use of both ECM and ECCM.

The biggest issue with ECM and ECCM is to remember that the best "targetting" ship in each TF is compared with the worst "visibility" ship in each TF. So if you have 17 ships with cloaking in a TF and 1 ship without, the whole TF will still be easy for your opponent to spot. It's most important to group "stealth ships" together in order for stealth to work.

As for the effects "stacking" I don't know offhand, but I'll look around a bit for an answer.

[Vitold]

Thank You very much, Strifeguard.
It's very helpful :)

[pedxing]

stacking multiples of the same thing, like using three of ECM III, will have no extra effect.

stacking one-of-each, like one ECM I, one ECM II, and one ECM III, will have an effect.

we have not figured out how to make the AI players stack, so the ability of the human player to do this is something of an exploit.

if you use the Autobuild patch, you can customize the rules for what the Autobuild will design for you, by editing Autobuild.txt.

so what you can do is edit Autobuild.txt until the Autobuild will design ships that pretty much look like what you would design yourself by hand.

it takes a little bit of experimenting and time, but once you've done it, it saves huge amounts of time during ship design... just clickety-clickety-clickety and you have redesigned your entire fleet to use those new shields or whatever.

the other cool thing is that the AI players will also use the new Autobuild rules, so the enemies you face will be using ships as well-designed as yours.

if we could teach the Autobuild how to stack electronic warfare, then i would, and then both my ships and the AI ships would use it... there may be a way, but nobody has figured it out yet.

[Quinn]

IIRC

Sensors:- Increase your ships sensor range - Makes the enemy ships easier to see (appear closer)
ECM:- Decrease the chance of your ships being targetted - Makes them appear to be further away from the enemy (decreases weapons damage taken due to dissapation)
ECCM:- Increase your ships targetting range - Makes the enemy ships appear closer and therefore take more damage (depending upon weapon dissapation of course so not as effective for mass driver weapons).
Cloak:- Decrease your ships chance of being spotted - Makes your ships appear to be further away.

So ECCM is effective even if the enemy has no ECM, but they do act against eachother.

Sensors only need to be on Recon ships, but the others need to be on every ship.

Please can someone correct this if it is misleading.

Q

[pedxing]

i don't know if the "closer" effect from ECCM affects damage as well, or just chance to hit...

also, the same argument for only putting Sensors on Recon could also be made for ECCM, since they also use your best against their worst.

but other than that, yep. :up:

i include ECCM/Sensors in my Autobuild.txt for most everything, but put them at a lower priority than ECM/Cloak, for most ships other than LR, Recon, and PD.

if figure that the LRs are the ones that need it most when not in a Wave/Armada, and PD ships are good backups in case the Recons in one of those big formation get destroyed.

[Ashbery76]

what are Decoy Drones and SPAMissiles in the Autobuild.txt?

[pedxing]

heh.

Decoy Drones are the cheapest, smallest, laser fighters you can buy, and SPAMissiles are the one-shot nuke missile version.

the Autobuild will use them to pad out the remaining space, when it can't put anything else useful on a ship.

the effect of having Decoy Drones is that each of your Armadas will launch a couple of the cheap fighters, which enemy fighter swarms will have to track down and kill before they can come after your ships.

the other useful effect, even if you aren't engaging a fighter-heavy enemy, is that the Drones act as advance recon units. they effectively extend your sensor range, since you can see whatever they can see.

the final effect, and the reason that i made sure to include them on the default scout design you have at the start of the game, happens when you enter a Guardian system, or encounter enemy warships: the first thing they usually go after is your poor little Drone, giving you that couple of extra seconds to retreat while they reload.

SPAMissiles have a little bit of the same effect as Drones, making the enemy fighters waste time shooting at them, but they are really most useful when mounted on ships that are escorting IF ships.

when the IF ships launch their heavy warheads at the start of combat, all the other ships in the TF that have SPAMissiles will be launching their duds at the same time.

the result is a fat first wave of inbound missiles, making the enemy waste PD against dummy warheads, increasing the chance that more of the heavy warheads will connect.

IF ships intentionally stock a few extra SPAMissiles, but stuffing a couple of them in the otherwise empty cracks on each of the escort ships is what really pads out that first wave.

it also means that non-IF Armadas will launch an annoying first wave of missiles. it's this annoyance factor (in addition to the noise they add on top of the signal of the really important missiles) that really earns them their name. :D

[Quinn]

i don't know if the "closer" effect from ECCM affects damage as well, or just chance to hit...

Hmmm... I'd be nice if anyone knows the answer to this.

also, the same argument for only putting Sensors on Recon could also be made for ECCM, since they also use your best against their worst.

Ah but weapons targetting is on a ship-ship basis, so ECCM which improves targetting distance is useful for direct-fire ships... Or at least that's how I understand it.

i include ECCM/Sensors in my Autobuild.txt for most everything, but put them at a lower priority than ECM/Cloak, for most ships other than LR, Recon, and PD.

if figure that the LRs are the ones that need it most when not in a Wave/Armada, and PD ships are good backups in case the Recons in one of those big formation get destroyed.

:up: Good call.

Q

[Darosne]

If ECM and ECCM affect beam weapons, what happens if some of my ships in a TF have them and some don't? Will I get zero benefit, or will only the ships that have them get the offensive/defensive bonuses?

[Quinn]

If ECM and ECCM affect beam weapons, what happens if some of my ships in a TF have them and some don't? Will I get zero benefit, or will only the ships that have them get the offensive/defensive bonuses?

Quick answer to your question, only the ships that have ECM/ECCM get the benefits...


Sensors:- Increase your ships sensor range - Makes the enemy ships easier to see (appear closer)
ECM:- Decrease the chance of your ships being targetted - Makes them appear to be further away from the enemy (decreases weapons damage taken due to dissapation)
ECCM:- Increase your ships targetting range - Makes the enemy ships appear closer and therefore take more damage (depending upon weapon dissapation of course so not as effective for mass driver weapons).
Cloak:- Decrease your ships chance of being spotted - Makes your ships appear to be further away.


Combat comes in 2 steps.

1. Visibility - can you see the enemy TF?
2. Firing - which you can't do until you can see the enemy TF.

For visibility, the ship in your TF with the best range is used (so the one with the best sensor - normally the Recon/picket ships) against the ship in the enemy TF with the WORST cloak.

For firing, it's on a ship to ship basis, so it compares the ECCM of the firing ship against the ECM of the target ship - this bit answers your question - so they are useful on every ship with direct fire weapons (including PD weapons).

For cloaks, they are useless and a waste of space unless ALL ships in the TF have them.

For sensors, it can be argued that only the Recon ships really need them (unless you're using Squad/Flotilla/etc. which don't have recon ships) but you'll get penalised if the recon ships are lost from an armada.

Q

[Darosne]

Hmmm... I should start installing ECM and ECCMs on my heavy warships as well, then... What are the chances of only my recon ships being destroyed in an armada?

[pedxing]

depends on how heavy your recon ships are, compared to the rest of the armada...

if they are small, cheap, minimum ships, then they're more likely to be destroyed than other ships in the armada.

if they are as beefy as the other ships, then the chances of losing both don't really seem that large, unless a large fraction of the armada is lost.

[Vitold]

Does "standard mount" fire at all directions?
What is angle of fire all other mounts?

PDF manual doesn't explain this.

[Quinn]

Does "standard mount" fire at all directions?
What is angle of fire all other mounts?

PDF manual doesn't explain this.

All mounts are 360 - at least I think so. I know from the description that spinal mounts should definitely not be, but they are.

Ignore the manual totally, find encyclopedia mod and use that instead (www.moo3.at has it)

Q

[Vitold]

Thx very much, Quinn :)
Actualy, I'm using ENCYCLOPEDIA MOD v5.0 Updated By: Specialist290.

[garados]

hiya, would like to ask how do i know if the planet is a sweet spot or at least green by looking at the planet details before colonising it? is it the colour of the gravity? cos i colonise all hte green colour gravity planets and they turn out to be in hte red zone..

[pedxing]

there are two ways...

if you are in the System itself, you can click on the planet, and its info will appear, including the habitability. this is useful if you've just discovered the system, and want to look to see if there are any good colonization targets.

however, if you are just looking for a next good place to settle, somewhere, going around to all the systems and looking at all the planets is a pain. for that, you want to go to the Planets list, and next to the image of each planet is a vertical bar that is green on top, yellow in the middle, and red at the bottom, with an indicator?

you will say, "ooooooooh, duuuuuuuuh!" and >smack< your forehead when you see it. ;)

anyway, different races have different habitability (and gravity) preferences, so what's red for one race in your empire may be green for another one. by default, the habitability shown for uninhabited planets is what the dominant race in your empire thinks about it. for inhabited planets, it's what the majority race on the planet thinks about it.

on the Planets list there is a dropdown to see what other species think about the planet. this is useful if you want to find a good planet for minority races in your empire, like magnates, to settle.

in the System view, there isn't that option. :sour:

oh, and note that in the Planets list, you can sort by habitability (i think it's called Terraform though?) so that green planets are at the top of the list.

you can also filter by Similar Environment to show only the planets that your people really like.

there is a sort by Gravity option too, but instead of putting the green gravity at the top, it just puts the strongest gravity at the top, so the usefulness of the option is limited.

finally, make sure to take both gravity and habitability into account! good hab is nice for growing population, but bad grav will limit production, and make the planet slow to develop industrially.

[Juff]

Hello, I've got a few questions about this marvellously engrossing and complex game.

First of all, is it normal that saving a game only saves the state of the game at the start of the turn? EG. I fiddle with the build queues, save before I end turn, and when i reload all the build queues are reset.

Second, can you manually build spaceport DEAs? I ask as I had a bug (that resulted from installing strawberry 1.2 update without 1.1) where i was unable to place DEAs other than bio, mine and industry. Is this some holdover bug or are you really unable to place them?

I've also got some questions about combat.

My fighters seems to have stopped intercepting missile volleys ever since i started putting a couple of SCFs on my carriers. I thought they'd separate into 2 separate flights, with interceptors engaging missiles and fighters while the SCFs attack enemy TFs. Instead, all of them run the gauntlet through enemy fighters without returning fire and get slaughtered. Is this normal?

Why is is the AI's PD so effective? If the AI uses auto-build designs, then all of them should have crap for PD. When I auto-build PD ships, the AI puts a couple of massive PD weapons (like PD enveloping plasma or something) and that's it. That should be rubbish in battle, but my volleys still get shot down with frightening efficiency.

Also, is the fighter neutron supposed to be so good? Fighter neutrons are 32 damage for 10.5 space, whereas fighter ions are 16 for 7.5 space. In fact, they're better than fighter gravitons (31 for 13.5), which are a full 7 TLs later. Is the game misrepresenting its damage, or are there some hidden drawbacks?

Also, is it just me or does every combat sound in the game the same as freespace 2's?

Thanks.

[pedxing]

welcome aboard!

so, let's see... on saving: a good way to think about it is that all the stuff you do during your turn are "orders" and when all the players are ready, everybody's orders are applied at once to change the "state" of the game.

the savegame file unfortunately only save game state, it doesn't save orders that have been given but not yet executed. so yeah, anything you do on your turn will not become part of the saved game state, until you hit Turn and the orders are applied.

on spaceport deas, i've never actually had to build them manually... i just let the viceroy take care of it. the nice thing is that spaceports go into the "3rd slot" in a region, where no other dea type can go, so you don't have to worry about 'roy being stupid about placement.

also, before a region can build a spaceport, i believe there is a minimum population level requirement, so that might be another thing that could prevent manual placement.

on fighters intercepting missiles, that will only happen if the FigherInterceptor patch is in effect, and it shouldn't matter if they are SCF or Interceptor chassis. i think that Strawberry has FighterInterceptor.

since Strawberry 1.2 needs to be fixed up anyway with the Patcher, you probably already are familiar with using it? starting up the Patcher would be the easiest way to check if FighterInterceptor is currently installed.

on the AI's PD, i dunno. are you using the Autobuild.txt and TaskForceRules.txt that came with Strawberry? or the ones that i used to have in my sig?

the progression of fighter weapons have always been a bit of a mystery to me. :bulb:

on sound, i dunno, i use the Moo2 Sounds mod. :D

[Juff]

Wow, thanks for the prompt reply. hmm, so i guess everyone has to go thru the frustration of a 1 hour turn then making an incredibly stupid mistake during combat and having to do everything over again? or is everyone here used to ironman challenges?

about the spaceport dea, i just want the viceroy to prioritize placing the spaceport before building all the infrastructure buildings (BTW what does infrastructure do?)

I have the one from strawberry installed. should i be using the one from MUU:BaA? Looking through the autobuild text, i notice that it weights doing more damage per weapon space, which is why i keep getting AF AP hellfires. My real question is why the AI's designs aren't terrible at their job. Is it because their PD ships are simply very large hulls? is that the norm? i've been using destroyers to keep the production costs down.

On that note, i've got a leader who decreases my goverment efficiency. Does this mean my gov deas are worse, or that my HFOG is higher? similar question for a military leader. Is this just military deas?

Thanks once again.

[ac_snowman]

Pretty much everybody loses an hour of work on the whole save thing, throws a tantrum, sulks for an hour and then sits back dow to recreate the orders. All part of the Moo3 experience.

The only way to prioritize spaceports is by making Trade a priority in you Dev Plan. If you're not yet using Dev Plans, I'd suggest taking the time to read the stickied threads on them in the strategy topic. I've found that it isn't necessary to make them primary, but if you put Trade in the secondary or tertiary slots of 'All Planets' they seem to get built pretty quick. I think they are naturally weighted by the game with a higher priority.

Even with FighterInterceptor this will sometimes happen. Usually it has to do with what your taskforces (and fighters if already launched) spot first, enemy missles/fighters or ships. Your combat orders will also factor into this and whether you're controlling the combat (tip: learn to control the combat. Your ships will live longer).
If you order your taskforces to attack enemy ships then your fighters will do just that, ignoring any missles. It's best to give your TF's a patrol order which means they'll target whatever comes in range first. However, if your fighters are already launched and they spot any ships they'll go after them regardless if a missle salvo is launched before they get there.

Why is the AI better at PD? It cheats! Only explaination I've ever come up with. Some tips for improving your chances...
Hard beams are great because of the range, size, and cost. Use the upgrades. PD is most effective if you use a variety of mounts to create waves of fire as missles/fighters get closer.

Fusion cannons are very effective due to damage, but they take up quite a bit of space. I try to include a couple.

Rail guns also seem to do nice work, but a kinda large and expensive.

Once Lightning Field Generators are available...nuff said. Use the waves of fire technique and it's over.

Phasors also seem to be great later in the game.

As for PD ship size, I'd go bigger to better accomodate the wave effect. It's really a function of overall ship cost. You don't need as many PD as mission ships so it's okay if they cost a little more than you LR/SR ships. Cost them so your prime industry worlds can spit them out in 2 turns and your second tier of production worlds can do about 4 turns. I tend to keep my prime worlds building misison ships X5 and have the 2nd tier working to fill the TF gaps with PD, Recon, or Transport.

Another technique...I used to fill whatever space was left on recon ships after sensors with my longest range weapon. I've found that I have better luck keeping my ships alive if I use this space for PD.

[Quinn]

On spaceports, you can't place them, you can only use the dev plans to prioritise them - it says they only build when the regional population is 4, but I've seen them build before that. And they only build when the other 2 DEAs in the region are built.

[Juff]

Sorry to keep asking, but i have some more questions. Why am I power rank number one when 2 other powers have more ships and more planets? Its made all my neighbours and allies declare war on me, and its ridiculous, because they're bigger. Is it just because i'm in the senate and they're not? If its because of the senate, would voting them in to get the heat off me?

Oh, and every now and then someone ends their war with me unilaterally, and I get the option to demand tribute in the diplomacy box. However, if i demand it, they just refuse me. This seems to make surrender pointless. Am i doing something wrong?

Thanks.

[Quinn]

On the Victory tab, it's score that matters, not planets or tech level, switch the drop-down list and note the various positions. Now score depends upon lots of factors and not just number of planets, or ships, or active ships, or active spies, or alliances, or tech level, or senate membership/presidency, or ground troops. It's a combination of all of these....and it wouldn't surprise me if it's a FUBAR as the rest of the game. In fact I've seen empires jump from stupidly low on score to #1 by a massive margin (10x plus) just by getting their backsides walloped and losing lots of armadas of seriously outdated ships.

I understand by the second paragraph that you are making a counter-offer? If you are don't bother, the AI'll only accept it if there's a penguin flying past your window when you hit the "Propose" button! As discussed above the different treaty types (Cease Fire, Peace Treaty, Conditional Surrender, etc.) give you different terms - you just can't see what they are! Just accept them if you aren't going to continue attacking that empire.

[Alhym]

I hope that's not a stupid question and it's not been answered 10 times already, but in a recent fight one of the races used, I think, little small attack ships detached from a transport armada, and they tend to swarm out and build a huge swarm around my armadas, obliterating them... :( How can I defend myself against it? Obviously LR and SR only ships don't work :) Is it Point Defense?

[Tjodleik]

I hope that's not a stupid question and it's not been answered 10 times already, but in a recent fight one of the races used, I think, little small attack ships detached from a transport armada, and they tend to swarm out and build a huge swarm around my armadas, obliterating them... :( How can I defend myself against it? Obviously LR and SR only ships don't work :) Is it Point Defense?

Those would be fighters (or drones of you're using mods).
And believe me, LR can do plenty of damage against fighters if you use them in the right way.

First of all, never enter engage fighters with only one task force, as they'll probably saturate your defenses and eat you alive. Personally I avoid fighters unless I have at least 5-6 armadas in the system, but your milage may vary.

Next, use weapons on different mounts to create a layer effect, making the fighters take multiple hits before they can shoot back. One of my most effective fighter killers had spinal mount hard beams, standard mount hard beams, light mount hard beams and a couple of fusion cannons for good measure. This gave me a layer at about 17 000 meters (or whatever they measure distance in :p), the next layer at about 10 000 meters and the last layer at about 3-5 000 meters. It proved very effective, and it required sh*tloads of fighters to break through.

Third, keep your forces together. Mutual coverage is key, as it will make your defenses that much harder to saturate. If you don't command your own ships, give them a system speed of about 250. That'll stop them from doing stupid things like leave the formation, and give them much greater resistance against fighters and/or missiles.

Fourth, if you have any weapon mods, use them. I prefer autofire and continuous as they (supposedly) increase the chance of hitting those pesky little gnats, but miniaturization is also good as it allows you to stuff more guns on your ship.

And if all else fails - start a research race to get the lightning field generator. It's one of, if not the most effective anti-fighter weapons in the game, but if you just encountered fighters for the first time it's probably 20-30-40 tech levels up the ladder.

[MonkeyHead]

As mentioned, the key is in layering defence, an circling your wagons so to speak. Using the autobuild patch, you can set up formula's for your PD ships to have multiple layers of PD. I find spinal beams good for LRPD, particle weapon with medium mount good for mid range, and light or PD kinetic weapons good for SRPD - that is, until LFG come around, when its all about how many of theose buggers i can cram on.

dont underestimate the usefulness of PD missiles against low tech fighets that have no fighter shileds or fighter armour though. it takes 60 seconds for fighters to fuel and launch replacement waves from the moment the first is launched. thats enough time to close and kill the carriers if you can take out the fighters early with PD missiles. the patrol command is useful for this, as it prevents your valuable IF ammo from being spammed straight away.

and why not try your own fighters? the fighter inteceptor patch helps here so they behave in sensible manner - if you have fighters, well armed, well armoured and shilded, and enough of them, its possible no enemy fighters will reach your TF's.... and if any do, thier numbers should be vey reduced. you can then also have fun using them against your enemy, who often doesnt make good use of PD ships.

[Alhym]

I already thought about that, though I have to read a Ship Design Guide first I think. Everytime up until now I said "Autobuild" for every shipkind and guessed/hoped the AI fits the best weapons on it. But it never took missiles nor fighters (maybe LR and SR ships aren't for this, but Carriers?). I'm sort of still too used to MoO II Tactics I think: Build a mass of the newest tech ships possible and direct them to your enemy...this doesn't quite well work here all too well ^^

Maybe I already have the LFG technology. I use a german translation version of the game, but one of the technologies I had was, I think, "Magnetic Field Generator" and it said that it created a field around the ship, at very close rang, which will scramble and destroy any fighter close enough...maybe it is this, or there is the upgrade to Lightning Field Generator I dont have yet (since every enemy of mine has Orbitals and I cant build them yet, I think I am still missing lots of techs ^^)

[pedxing]

yes, autobuild LR and SR will not carry fighters, unless you are using the Autobuild patch, and an Autobuild.txt file that instructs them to do so.

unmoddded, only Carriers will carry fighters, and only Indirect Fire ships will carry missiles.

you will probably not see useful Carrier or IF designs produced by the Autobuild in the early game, but once things get going, they become extremely powerful.

i would also like to second the suggestion of using the Fighter Interceptor patch... it really makes sense, and increasing the defensive power of fighters greatly reduces the offensive power (which is often called "unbalanced" in the mid-game of 1.2.5) of both missiles and fighters.

[Native]

Wow, an old thread with continued life. :) Ah, it takes me back. Where did I leave off in my last MOO3 game...
:salut2:

[JosEPh]

Howdy Native.

<Waves back.>

JosEPh