what's the deal with ithkul ?

[eng60340]

i am not too sure about the info about ithkul..

so if i take over an ithkul world.
the ithkul will migrate and eat up my race. ?

will i end up losing at the end ?

[Craig P.]

No. You'll end up being Ithkul in the end, but you'll still be your own empire.

[The Wagster]

Eventually all your subjects will become Ithkul, so no more humans/evon/imsaes/whatever but you will still have complete control over the empire. You will not be "assimilated" (sp?) into the Ithkul empire.

[Patton1942]

Originally posted by eng60340
i am not too sure about the info about ithkul..

so if i take over an ithkul world.
the ithkul will migrate and eat up my race. ?

will i end up losing at the end ?

Unless you are cybernetic / geodic. Ithkul can't eat the rocks or the mechs. They will not eat the Byre Eht (SP?) magnate civ either (the non coporeal one) and maybe the plants.

Other than those exceptions, you will have an empire of hungry Ithkul who do your bidding. Almost all the bonuses, w/o the penalties. I'm still deciding if this is a good thing, or a bad thing.

[MekLord]

I've seen various fragments of info on this, but I'd like a concise answer in one post if posssible.

1) Ithkul cannot use Cybernetiks or Geodedic races as hosts?
Therefore if I am playing the Meklar, I should be able to safely invade and conquer Ithkul world correct?

2) What about my conquered/ magnate slaves? Even though my main race is the Meklar, the Ithkul can migrate to my other worlds and begin converting my organic population?
(On a more general note, is there any distance restriction on population migration within an empire? The Ithkul are several starlanes away from any of my non-Meklar worlds... can they still migrate to them?)

3) Can I use Ithkul as Forced Labor and work them to death by setting the labor slider higher? (If I freed my other Forced Labor Units first, would I be able to toggle Forced Labor back on and only have it apply to newly conquered worlds full of Ithkul , or would it also apply to worlds of other empires I had previously conquered and re-create the Forced Labor Units of those races?)

4) I can produce Ithkul military units? Military units never mingle with the civillian populations correct? Therefore I can use Ithkul troops to conquer my other enemies and the troops will not contaminate the newly-conquered world?

Sorry this has got so long, it's just hard to find all the scraps about the post-patch Ithkul among all the other threads, and I think this would also be a big help to new players to have it in this thread as well.

[Patton1942]

Originally posted by MekLord
I've seen various fragments of info on this, but I'd like a concise answer in one post if posssible.

1) Ithkul cannot use Cybernetiks or Geodedic races as hosts?
Therefore if I am playing the Meklar, I should be able to safely invade and conquer Ithkul world correct?

Yes. Same with Silicoids and Cynoids.

Originally posted by MekLord
2) What about my conquered/ magnate slaves? Even though my main race is the Meklar, the Ithkul can migrate to my other worlds and begin converting my organic population?
(On a more general note, is there any distance restriction on population migration within an empire? The Ithkul are several starlanes away from any of my non-Meklar worlds... can they still migrate to them?)

Yes. There are no restrictions per say, there are modifiers making it less likely that any race will migrate more than 4 jumps. It does happen tho.

Originally posted by MekLord
3) Can I use Ithkul as Forced Labor and work them to death by setting the labor slider higher? (If I freed my other Forced Labor Units first, would I be able to toggle Forced Labor back on and only have it apply to newly conquered worlds full of Ithkul , or would it also apply to worlds of other empires I had previously conquered and re-create the Forced Labor Units of those races?)

You cannot specify who gets put into FLU (Forced Labor Units) you only control whether or not they get used.

Originally posted by MekLord
4) I can produce Ithkul military units? Military units never mingle with the civillian populations correct? Therefore I can use Ithkul troops to conquer my other enemies and the troops will not contaminate the newly-conquered world?

Yes.

Originally posted by MekLord
Sorry this has got so long, it's just hard to find all the scraps about the post-patch Ithkul among all the other threads, and I think this would also be a big help to new players to have it in this thread as well.

No prob. I think many of us like to think of this forum as a sort of interactive manual... Since we don't have a manual to speak of...

[StormHawk]

Ithkul dont use Silicoids as hosts, but they ARE killed and converted to minerals (according to QSI). Cybernetiks are treated as normal races i think. the non-corporeal race is the only race that the harvesters ignore.

Ithkul will not automattically convert all your population to ithkul. ANY race can only migrate to a world that has an empty region, unless it already has some of that type of population.
What this means - You have you original planet, every region has human population in it. no other race can go to this world. humans can still go there though. IF there is a region that has no population on it (newer planets usually) then any race can go there, Ithkul want to go there more because there will be hosts for them.

<edit>

Originally posted by QSI Programming
Harvesters (like everyone else) still need to have an empty region to move to. And they will still prefer planets with a preferential habitibility. Also, the weight used can be modded or tuned. It essentially has the same pull as Humans/Evons/Psilons do for each other or Trilarians and Nommo, etc.
link (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3728816#post3728816)

Originally posted by QSI Programming
They do that in the release code (to Silicoids and Meklars - they eat the rest...).
link (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3745797#post3745797)

[Da_Blade]

Post patch Ithkul still aren't that bad. All you get is some unrest on a planet with ithkul on it. I got some accidentaly when i conquered a silicoid planet bordering the itkhul empire. It was part silicoid, part ithkul and partly inhabited by Elerians. That was about 50 turns ago, i have now one all-itkhul planet where migration started, the original ithkul planet still has all it's population intact, even after a major food shortage a while ago (i discovered microlite construction, and my 1k food surplus was unable to handle the extra 4k food needed for biological industry).

Since the itkhul empire is next on my to-do list after the orions, i am considereing simply invading them with ground troops, gotta leave all those crack and veteran army's somewhere ;)

[Da_Blade]

Also, on new colony's that are settled on green planets, such an amount of migrants will come in usually of the founding race, that ithkul never get in. In the above mentioned game, 150 turns later i have now 4 ithkul colony's, of which i conquered one and founded two. That's 1 planet not intended to be ithkul, of a whole lot of new founded planets (i completely re-colonized a large ithkul empire i completely bombed flat).

Also, once you get into serious wars, most planets will already be colonized, meaning your new planets will be conquered ones mostly. As these regions are also already filled, ithkul minions cannot set foot here.

IMO, there's no risks in taking ithkul into your empire. Though i would advice not taking too many planets, as their migration force will be bigger if they have more planets, they will most probably get a foothold on new colonies faster then.

[StormHawk]

People seem paranoid about the Ithkul. Once you understand how they work, (only migrate to free regions, they do consume EVERY race except the Brye Ehts, etc..), you can incorporate them into your empire. They have superior bioharvesting/manufacturing so they are great. good ground troops too. Although you do have to take a little care when expanding.

[Strifeguard]

Originally posted by StormHawk
Although you do have to take a little care when expanding.
This is where, IMHO, every bit of Ithkul paranoia out there becomes well deserved.

Post-patch, the Ithkul will try and migrate to any world which contains free range food. Furthermore, they'll (mildly) try and migrate away from all-Ithkul worlds because of the slight unrest generated by "NoHarvFd".

This can become a horrific problem in the mid-to-late game, largely because expansion during this period of the game is anything but careful.

What can/will end up happening is a chain-reaction that goes something like the following:
1) A harvester world becomes part of your empire, either through conquest, accidental colonization, etc.
2) Elsewhere in your empire citizens immigrate to a previously empty world, beginning a new outpost, without your immediate knowledge. They take up only 1 region, and are less than 100 in number.
3) Some Ithkul, seeing the "free-range-food" and empty regions immediately migrate there.
4) As having members of the "same species" already on a planet provides a huge pull factor, more and more Ithkul will try to move in.
5) Because they are being eaten, your people's population growth will slow. Furthermore, the mild unrest generated by being eaten will discourage more people from moving to this outpost.
6) More and more Ithkul move in, as the numbers of the original populace either creep up slowly, stay the same, or even drop. Setting migration won't help much, because it will encourage the Ithkul to move in at least as much as other citizens are encouraged. Add to this the two "pull factors" the Ithkul are already experiencing (that being non-Ithkul population, AND Ithkul population on the same world) and the Ithkul will more-or-less take over.
7) This process repeats creating an ever-increasing number of predominantly Ithkul worlds along your frontier. While your core systems remain largely unaffected, your expansion efforts will be severely hindered.

The above progression is made possible for a few reasons.
1) The Harvesters have the lowest StayPercentage value on the Population Spreadsheet (that value being 60) meaning that they are VERY prone to migration.
2) Moving to a Red2 is only a -15 pull value, while the existence of Ithkul on a planet will provide a +60 pull value, plus they have an additional pull value because food is "available". This means they'll move into Red2 worlds, even in cases when other species wouldn't.
3) As the game progresses, your worlds will become increasingly more crowded. Likewise, unrest will also increase. You can try and combat both of these, but they'll happen anyway. The end result will be the creation of unplanned outposts and colonies, which the Ithkul will easily move into well before you have a chance to send colony or outposts ships to fill up.

If you only take a few Ithkul into your empire, controlling them shouldn't be too hard. If, on the otherhand, you invade whole planets, watch out.

[StormHawk]

Ithkul can be a pain as you described. (very good BTW) I usually play on small galaxies, with many opponents, so I don't expand like crazy as in a larger galaxy.
I think the biggest problem is that people do not understand how they work. Many people claim that their entire population will be converted to Ithkul. Paranoia is just misunderstanding, IMO.

[Strifeguard]

Originally posted by StormHawk
Ithkul can be a pain as you described. (very good BTW) I usually play on small galaxies, with many opponents, so I don't expand like crazy as in a larger galaxy.
Yeah, this has been a big problem for me. I always go for the "grand epic" feel in my games, so it's huge 3-arm spirals for me. I often "lose-touch" with how smaller galaxies play.

Very good point on the manufacturing bonuses the Ithkul provide, btw, they're really not so bad.

BTW has anyone else noticed the post-patch Ithkul creativity "situation"? I don't know how else to refer to it.

Here's the basic rundown. Post-patch all races have a base "creativity" of 58, except for the Ithkul, for whom it's 66. That is, they have 58% chance that each technology out there is in their tech tree on the "Adaptive" creativity setting. (And people still claim they're being overwhelmed by tech discoveries, shows you how large the tree really is) again, the Ithkul recieve 66% chance per tech on "Adaptive".

Note: The in-game text says that the base is 66% for all races except the Ithkul, and 73% for them. I believe this was overlooked from pre-patch, as the "racemodifiers" table now reads 58 for all races under the "techs" column (pre-patch it stated 66).

Anyway, the short of it is, the Ithkul cannot choose "original" creativity. However, because of the 8% advantage they start with, at a setting of "adaptive" they recieve the same bonus as all other races recieve for "original".

IMHO, this is okay, because tech trades are more-or-less out of the question for Ithkul empires, thus they'd be more dependent on what's in their tech tree to begin with. However, I'm curious to hear what others think about this.

Since this thread is entitled "What's the deal with Ithkul?" I hope this isn't too off topic.

[Ron_Lugge]

Not to far off topic, no.

[StormHawk]

Perhaps because Ithkul retain memories from previous hosts (one of the ithkul leaders says it can remember its original host, an antaran soldier) so maybe that is where their creativity comes from? they keep gaining knowledge.

When I play larger galaxies, I notice that Ithkul expand like crazy, probably due to their manufacturing superiority. I enjoy playing as them too.

Off Topic? of course not. The Ithkul seem to be the most understood aspect of the game. I just wish more people read this particular forum, it seems mostly empty.

[Ron_Lugge]

Perhaps this forum should be made a full forum, isntead of a sub-forum?

[Stochastic]

Originally posted by Strifeguard
BTW has anyone else noticed the post-patch Ithkul creativity "situation"? I don't know how else to refer to it.

Here's the basic rundown. Post-patch all races have a base "creativity" of 58, except for the Ithkul, for whom it's 66. That is, they have 58% chance that each technology out there is in their tech tree on the "Adaptive" creativity setting. (And people still claim they're being overwhelmed by tech discoveries, shows you how large the tree really is) again, the Ithkul recieve 66% chance per tech on "Adaptive".

Note: The in-game text says that the base is 66% for all races except the Ithkul, and 73% for them. I believe this was overlooked from pre-patch, as the "racemodifiers" table now reads 58 for all races under the "techs" column (pre-patch it stated 66).

Anyway, the short of it is, the Ithkul cannot choose "original" creativity. However, because of the 8% advantage they start with, at a setting of "adaptive" they recieve the same bonus as all other races recieve for "original".



Alex Frog did some very careful testing on this "inherent creativity value" and found that it does nothing. All races have a 66% basic chance of receiving any given tech (modified by your Creativity picks, of course). The number in the spreadsheet is probably just an artifact of the older design.

[Strifeguard]

Originally posted by Stochastic
Alex Frog did some very careful testing on this "inherent creativity value" and found that it does nothing. All races have a 66% basic chance of receiving any given tech (modified by your Creativity picks, of course). The number in the spreadsheet is probably just an artifact of the older design.
Where did you see this?

AFAIK Alex Frog hasn't yet played Moo3 post-patch.

Pre code-patch, this would be correct, all races have a 66% chance of discovering any given tech. (with the exclusion of Antaran techs) Post-patch, however this is a different story. If Alex Frog has indeed returned, I'd be glad to see what he's been up to.

[StormHawk]

alexfrog posts in OT. I think he has lost most interest in the game. I havent heard him comment about the patch though...

This should be a whole forum, not a sub one. 'noob' questions arent really strategy.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Strifeguard
This is where, IMHO, every bit of Ithkul paranoia out there becomes well deserved.

<snip>

1) The Harvesters have the lowest StayPercentage value on the Population Spreadsheet (that value being 60) meaning that they are VERY prone to migration.
2) Moving to a Red2 is only a -15 pull value, while the existence of Ithkul on a planet will provide a +60 pull value, plus they have an additional pull value because food is "available". This means they'll move into Red2 worlds, even in cases when other species wouldn't.

So raise the "stay percentage" of Ithkul to 500 or something and they'd never leave their particular worlds. :p Easy solution to taking over an Ithkul world and having to worry about them taking over all those less than full planets you settle later on, unless of course you build outposts or colonies on their planets... :confused: :eek:

[Turling]

I don't invade Ithkul planets because I refuse to add people-eating monsters to my Empire. I just torch the suckers and watch them burn.

[cousLee]

What about the planetary special for forced labor? I have a planet in my current game that has "ithkul labor". This brought two questions to mind.

1> Will colonizing this planet "infect" my empire?

2> If I switch to FLUs not allowed (all current FLUs are released), will that cause an ithkul infection.

(I am not prejudiced, I hate all ithkul ;) )

[RobNelson]

1) Nope.

2) Nope.

Forced labor specials are completely separate from FLUs and work in a completely different manner.

[Vallius]

The monstrous ithkul certainly play their part well in the galaxy. Kill them all! By the way, what technology level do you need to create a planet destroyer? It would be really handy in wiping out those monsters.

[Awsric Armitage]

I have not invaded the Ithkul worlds because I read somewhere that you can never completely wipe-out a population from bombardment, they hide or something I guess. So am I to understand that after bombardment you can invade and kill the rest before you re-colonize or migrate in or are the conquered Ithkul treated as FLU and as posted above you are not subject to infestation.:confused:

[The Big Joke]

I read somewhere that you can never completely wipe-out a population from bombardment, they hide or something I guess.
This is not true. If you kill every single soul on the planet, then it will be your for the taking.

[Awsric Armitage]

Thanks and I wish I could remember where I read that or perhaps I was confused with not being able to invade or attack an outpost. :bulb: Anyway, Time to hunt some Ithkul.

[The Big Joke]

You cant bomb it when it is yours, that is what you might have mixed it up whith.

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Awsric Armitage
Thanks and I wish I could remember where I read that

In release even if you bombarded a planet to nothing it would keep its racial settings.