Ithkul on my Human planet ... how?

[mystic_fm]

Playing as Human, I had a border system (one inhabited planet) next to an Ithkul empire (yuck). An Ithkul colony ship then entered the system and started an outpost on another one of the worlds. A few turns thereafter I parked a large task force in the system to keep out any further Ithkul ships, but the game wouldn't allow me to attack the Ithkul outpost planet (possibly because it wasn't yet a full-fledged colony?).

I was waiting for the Ithkul outpost to grow into a colony so I could bomb the heck out of it, but it never grew. However, a dozen or so turns later I suddenly noticed that my formerly all-Human planet had become partially Ithkul????? :sour:

I thought there wasn't any migration of colonists from one empire into another? And there was no invasion of my planet in that system ... so how did I end up getting Ithkul on my planet? Most likely it is something I simply didn't understand, but I'd appreciate it if someone could shed some light on this.

[mystic_fm]

(read subject)

[synchro_w]

i remember this happening to my human colony . i didn't notice it fora while but it seemed that an ithkul had somehow got an OP ship into the system and set it up for a short time then the OP disappeared... but gues what? my colony and an OP i had added next to it were infected withthose bloody ithies... grrrr
i think i'm gonn have to play the ithkul to find out how these little buggers work. i didn't have a clue how to wipe my colonies clean of this infection and my worry was that if the colony pop got too big then they'd emigrate to sunnier climes and take those bloody things with them...

i must admit... it's a great game idea... shades of 'Alien' an all that... but where's ripley when you need her?

[Strifeguard]

I don't know if inter-empire migration is possible. (IIRC it's SUPPOSED to happen according to QSI, it just doesn't seem to be happening) However, there are other alternatives, especially after the patch.

After the patch, the Ithkul desperately want to move to any world which will contain "free-range food" for them to chow down on. This creates a small migration push factor (in the form of mild unrest) making the Ithkul want to move if they're living on a world without another species, but it also creates a migration pull factor on any outpost world founded by a non-ithkul empire.

This is usually controlled by the 3-jump negative pull factor. (Any planet that's 3 or more jumps away is considered "too far to move" in Moo3 migration turns, apparently) However, as you described it, the Ithkul and you were actually sharing a system at one point, so it's safe to say your empires were somewhat intertwined. If an ithkul colony/outpost exists within 3 jumps of any outpost you've founded, it's possible for ithkul to move to that outpost of their own volition. Furthermore, once they're on that outpost, they're free to move within your empire, especially once said outpost becomes a colony.

If I were you I'd check my planets carefully, the problem could actually be 3 or 4 colonies deep.

[ZombieEater]

I don't know if inter-empire migration is possible. (IIRC it's SUPPOSED to happen according to QSI,
Yeah, I see it now, the Human with the huge Ithkul parasite hanging off his face sneaking by the immigration officer, who didn't see anything unusual... ;)

[Sinapus]

The game seriously needs a "bug hunt" option for Ithkul.

"What's this cannister?" "RAAAAAAAAIIIIIDDD?!" BOOM

[Strifeguard]

Originally posted by ZombieEater
Yeah, I see it now, the Human with the huge Ithkul parasite hanging off his face sneaking by the immigration officer, who didn't see anything unusual...

It's the latest form of body art, I swear!

[QSI Programming]

Originally posted by Strifeguard
I don't know if inter-empire migration is possible. (IIRC it's SUPPOSED to happen according to QSI, it just doesn't seem to be happening) However, there are other alternatives, especially after the patch.

Inter-empire migration was in the ORIGINAL Ehmrich design, but is NOT in the release (or patched) versions of the code.

Originally posted by Strifeguard
This is usually controlled by the 3-jump negative pull factor. (Any planet that's 3 or more jumps away is considered "too far to move" in Moo3 migration turns, apparently)

This is not quite right. The spreadsheets as shipped have a '-3' PER JUMP pull. So it does the calculation for the planet and subtracts 3 for each jump away. There is no magical three jump cliff. The outreach is blocked by stars in which any other empire has any population (unless you already have some also) and by your systems which are blockaded. Enemy ships in unpopulated systems will not currently stop migration.

[The Bursar]

The Ithkul, post patch are more likely to go to a planet with 'a food source' i.e. an inhabited planet. This is likely what happened.

However, it's possible I'm misinterpreting the readme, and this excludes Colonies, and only includes magnates, outposts, and (maybe) labor sources.

[mystic_fm]

Thanks for the interesting info Stephen! But now back to my original question: in light of all of this, I'm still confused as to how Ithkul "migrated" to my world (which was a full-fledged colony by the way ... the Ithkul planet in the same system was only an outpost, but mine had developed to a fair extent). If inter-empire migration was still in the game then I could see how it happened, since at least a few turns did pass by after the Ithkul outpost planet was founded when I didn't yet have any ships in the system ... but since that's apparently not supposed to happen, how did Ithkul make it onto my planet when they didn't invade it? (And they weren't there before either ... this was very early in the game, and the system was uninhabited when I first found it at around turn 15 or so.)

[Opus T. Penguin]

Yes, we really do need a xenocide option, at least as far as Ithkul are concerned.

[The Bursar]

'cide! 'cide! 'cide! 'cide! 'cide! 'cide! 'cide! 'cide! 'cide! 'cide! 'cide!

Ithkul must die! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

[hoof1]

Zanthras, I think you need a free region on a target planet for another species to migrate to it. If the Grendarl colony had Grendarl in each possible region, there is no where for the Ithkul to go (1 species max per region). This is why Magnates are restricted in the regions they can occupy until another empire takes the planet. Otherwise you would not be able to land on the planet (no empty region to "claim").

Thus, it becomes about as difficult to "eat" the entire universe as Ithkul as it is to cleanse a non-ithkul specied of an infection. In both cases one must often resort to the give-planet-to-enemy-then-glass-it approach.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could station an army of your soldiers with orders to seek & destroy? Or at minimum, "protect the populace" orders (to avoid having to add a genocide option)?

[LORD ORION]

I've fooled around with the ithkul for awhile post patch, here's what I've seen.

To "eat" as an ithkul (without a blatant outright ground invasion) you want to be sharing star systems with edible inhabitants. To use this ability as a weapon on enemy empires, there are three possible scenarios.

1)The enemy tried to establish an outpost, or a colony on a red ring world, and as such, you can use a colony ship on them and share the planet. Won't be long before that planet becomes yours. :D

2)The edible enemy planet(s) in the system is less then 1000 population, but yout colonization attempts fail. Get one of your planets in that system up to 1000 as quickly as possible and continue migration... you have a good chance of going on mass vacation to said edible planets and taking them over as your own through auto-migration.

3)The enemy has "established" colonies in a system, in which case your goal is to set up a sacrifical colony in that star system. Why? Even some minor ithkul migration can seriously affect the enemy planets. Once they get them on one of their planets, good luck getting rid of them. Suddenly, as the ithkul devour the entire population, the habitation ring changes (usually to red) because the population is now ithkul... so productivity goes way down and the ithkul now want to migrate again. Although you can't hope to get free planets out of this deal since the ithkul now technically belong to the enemy empire, it does cause massive unrest and I've even seen a new ithkul empire be created out of rebellion a few times. :D

Basically, you use the "eat" ability to grow quickly on herd worlds you can gain control of (usually magnates/enemy outposts) and you use your "eat" ability as a way to slow down other empires if you can share star systems with them. (As in look for lightly guarded systems at the start of the game and try to get outposts in them for migration, hopefully before they nuke you ;))

Sounds like a good deal? Not really in multiplay with good players. They'll all gang up and contain you and than send a never ending stream of social spies at you. That's all she wrote.... you'll never come close to their production levels under those conditions.

[FatesClaw]

From Orion's post, I'm guessing that the Ithkul migrated first to your outpost, which apparently is allowed, and then to your colony.

[Lord Aramus]

The way it works is that if you send an outpost to a planet that already has an outpost, you can start a migration war. (ist race to 1000 wins) but that doesnt get rid of the citizens of the losing empire has already sent to your outpost.

This works in reverse too. My theory is that the Ikthul sent an outpost to your outpost. and once they are in your empire, it is only a matter of time before they consume all.

My suggestion is to give away any planet that has an Ikthul population and glass them.

Dont let them devour you!

[HeatonP]

Originally posted by QSI Programming
Inter-empire migration was in the ORIGINAL Ehmrich design, but is NOT in the release (or patched) versions of the code.

This is not quite right. The spreadsheets as shipped have a '-3' PER JUMP pull. So it does the calculation for the planet and subtracts 3 for each jump away. There is no magical three jump cliff. The outreach is blocked by stars in which any other empire has any population (unless you already have some also) and by your systems which are blockaded. Enemy ships in unpopulated systems will not currently stop migration.

In this case, post code patch, I have definitely seen an example of an enemy AI (Silicoid) using a colony ship to go off road.

I had a magnate planet (audrieh) that I was colonising through unencouraged migration (because I already had a couple of audrieh colonies). Off the top of my head it was seven or eight systems away from the only possible route to the Silicoids and every system on the way was colonised by my empire. Cluttered all the way with snacky stuff like mob centres, system ships, orbitals and defensive star fleets at the choke point system.

No silicoid ship got through, their weren't any floating around in my empire's hinterlands and there were no other routes through.

Low and behold the Silicoids managed to colonise that planet (although it should be noted that it was still 100% audrieh).

The only conclusion I have been able to reach is that they went deep space.........


Patrick

EDIT: Forgot to say that if this did happen then I think it's excellent :)

[mystic_fm]

There seems to be a confusion spreading in this thread that I had an outpost planet either sharing the Ithkul planet or in the same system at some point. Neither is the case. Here's exactly what happened: I settled a Green ring world in an uninhabited system using a full colony ship, so it became a full colony immediately and was never an outpost. Twenty turns or so later an Ithkul colony ship started an outpost on a different world in the same system (apparently not a perfect environment for them, since they didn't get a full colony). This remained the situation when I noticed that there were Ithkul on my planet in that system, and that they were already spreading to other planets in my empire. (Gads! I'd think I should get a big, flashing SitRep when icky things start appearing on my planets and eating the inhabitants! It's kind of impractical to scan every colony every turn to check the demographics window.)

Although no one has come out and said it definitively, I'm beginning to assume that Ithkul have a unique ability to spread to other planets in the same system as the planet they are currently on, regardless of which empire those planets belong to. This would explain what happened, I think. Can anyone verify that, or rule it out?

Furthermore, if I'd had a fleet presence in that system (which was not the case until several turns after the Ithkul outpost was founded), would it have prevented the spread of the Ithkul between planets in that system (as Stephen's post above seems to indirectly suggest)?

[The Bursar]

Reread the entire thread;such behavior is mentioned several times

[Maelis]

Originally posted by mystic_fm
Furthermore, if I'd had a fleet presence in that system (which was not the case until several turns after the Ithkul outpost was founded), would it have prevented the spread of the Ithkul between planets in that system (as Stephen's post above seems to indirectly suggest)?

Based on the earlier QSI post, I would say yes. He seemed to say that any enemy migration is stopped by blockading a system. So, if you blockade his outpost in the system, you stop migration from that outpost to your colony. I have a good test at home right now. My cynoid are currently in an Ithkul cleansing mood where they have settled an empty green planet in an Ithkul system. Before they settled in the system, my cynoid had started a blockade of the Ithkul worlds. If the Ithkul show up, it will prove that the blockading doesn't work. If they don't, it suggests that you should blockade an Ithkul system before you set up shop in it.

[Strifeguard]

@Stephen, thanks. Even though I feel like an idiot for posting without looking at the spreadsheets first, it's refreshing to see QSI posts in the Strategy/Gameplay forum again.

@Everyone else, sorry about spreading misinformation, I was reading an example in another thread of how migration works, and mistook the statemet "There's a negative pull because the star is 3 systems away" to mean that's where the cut-off was. Again, I apologize.

However, the point I was trying to make before was that you're not looking at the whole problem. The Ithkul on your planet may not be from the outpost in the same system at all. At some point in time, at a system somewhere else in your empire it's possible that you got some ithkul population assimilated into your empire.

This could have happened because you landed a colony ship on an ithkul planet without realizing it, or because an ithkul empire landed a colony ship on one of your outposts, but the outpost grew into your empire anyway. The point is, the Ithkul outpost in that system may have nothing to do with. If the Ithkul "got into" your empire on any colony, they would then be free to migrate between your colonies just like any other citizens.

You should check over the rest of your empire (I don't know how late in the game this is so this may/may not take a long time and be very tedious) for other planets with Ithkul population. If you find some (especially if they are several systems away) then it's likely that the Ithkul made their entrance there.

[Lord Aramus]

s'alright

[Flinx]

I have noticed two other threads where people have observed what appears to be inter-empire migration:

AI Auto-Migration Bug? (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=301058)
and
Where are the colonists coming from? (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=300751)

All three cases have the strong posibility of the migration comming from other planets in the same system.

Hmmm... What is going on here QSI? I thought you said this does not happen. :bulb:
Inter-empire migration ... is NOT in the release (or patched) versions of the code. :sour:

[mystic_fm]

Originally posted by Strifeguard
[BHowever, the point I was trying to make before was that you're not looking at the whole problem. The Ithkul on your planet may not be from the outpost in the same system at all. At some point in time, at a system somewhere else in your empire it's possible that you got some ithkul population assimilated into your empire.

This could have happened because you landed a colony ship on an ithkul planet without realizing it, or because an ithkul empire landed a colony ship on one of your outposts, but the outpost grew into your empire anyway. The point is, the Ithkul outpost in that system may have nothing to do with. If the Ithkul "got into" your empire on any colony, they would then be free to migrate between your colonies just like any other citizens.[/B]

I'm sure that wasn't the case in my game, at least. I'm very watchful of every planet I send a colony or outpost ship to (I tend to micromanage colonization), and I think I certainly would have noticed if there were any outposts already on a planet that I was attempting to colonize. Therefore I think they almost certainly must have migrated from the Ithkul outpost in question to my planet in the same system. But I'll redouble my attention to such things in the future, just to be sure.

[Flinx]

Originally posted by Maelis
Based on the earlier QSI post, I would say yes. He seemed to say that any enemy migration is stopped by blockading a system. So, if you blockade his outpost in the system, you stop migration from that outpost to your colony. I have a good test at home right now. My cynoid are currently in an Ithkul cleansing mood where they have settled an empty green planet in an Ithkul system. Before they settled in the system, my cynoid had started a blockade of the Ithkul worlds. If the Ithkul show up, it will prove that the blockading doesn't work. If they don't, it suggests that you should blockade an Ithkul system before you set up shop in it. :weird: Um... I have a completely different understanding of what Stephen said. He said that "Inter-empire migration ... is NOT in the release (or patched) versions of the code." Therefore any other comments about migration must be about intra-empire migration. That leads me to understand the statement "The outreach is blocked by stars in which any other empire has any population (unless you already have some also) and by your systems which are blockaded" as meaning that your citizens will not migrate through a star system that you have no population in but another empire does to get to another of your planets, and that there is no migration to, from or beyond any of your planets which are being blockaded.

As you are blockading the Ithkul worlds in that system, it is safe to assume that there will be no Ithkul migration (assuming no bugs here).

The question raised by mystic_fm however is that maybe inter-empire migration does/can occur in direct opposition to what we have been told.

If this is indeed the case, then it will need to be taken into account when planning strategy.

[JBarry]

If your world has labor / or another population. Then the harvisters move to that population EVEN if you have a colony on that world.

I have 3 worlds in a system with only 1 harvester outpost. Only the world with LABOR / magnate is eaten. I have tested this setting up systems with the editor and it seems to work that way EVERY time.

This might be a bug.

[JTBM]

If the conditions on a planet are bad for the population they migrate to another planets in the same system.
You are blockading the Itkhul and they are migrating to a planet what is not blockaded - this is your colony.

I saw this happening in Patch 1.2, but only with between my own planets and outpusts.

The Ithkul outpost doesn't belong to any empire yet, because it is an outpos only. The population feels bad and leaves. Cannot leave anywhere else then your colony - otherwise blockaded.

You are gaining free hard working citizens with excelent ground combat ability ;-)))

[Methraton]

This has happened to me as well... I had a well over two hundred planets in my empire when I noticed the ithkul problem... What I did was "quit" and "restart".

I think there should be an option to begin funding X-Com, which would research alien technologies, arm a dozen poorly shooting agents, and hunt down all the ithkul in the empire and saving it from the alien menace :D

-Meth-

[Actuarian]

Strifeguard suggested you do this:

You should check over the rest of your empire (I don't know how late in the game this is so this may/may not take a long time and be very tedious) for other planets with Ithkul population. If you find some (especially if they are several systems away) then it's likely that the Ithkul made their entrance there.

I think this is a good idea if you haven't done so already.

I was just wondering if there are any of your race on the Ithkul outpost due to automigration (before the Ithkul outpost was set up). I don't know if another empire's outpost inhabitants can migrate if you also have an outpost there...

[Seyfert]

Originally posted by Flinx
:weird: Um... I have a completely different understanding of what Stephen said. He said that "Inter-empire migration ... is NOT in the release (or patched) versions of the code." Therefore any other comments about migration must be about intra-empire migration. That leads me to understand the statement "The outreach is blocked by stars in which any other empire has any population (unless you already have some also) and by your systems which are blockaded" as meaning that your citizens will not migrate through a star system that you have no population in but another empire does to get to another of your planets, and that there is no migration to, from or beyond any of your planets which are being blockaded.



Nope I've seen it too. One game I was doing rather well in I stopped to do a quick scan down my planet list I had 3 Silicoid colonies, 2 Imies and an Ithkul. None were anywhere near any of the other empires. I didn't have agreements with them and I had closed my borders before I met any of them. They must've auto migrated to me, its the only explanation that fitted.
As to your second point, its also incorrect, by the time I had got a colony ship to the next door system in my current game, the next start system had a auto migrated colony, I've frequently had problems with my people auto migrating straight to a very far away system, before looking at the nice ones close to home.

You know the bizarre point about the ithkul? I gifted the system back to them, so that I could 'ahem' practise some safe colonisation principles. Before I could they declared war on me for pushing them 'too far'!!

[Flinx]

There have been several updates about migration since this thread was started.

Population can migrate from one planet in a system to any other planet in the same system even if it is controlled by a different empire. Since Ithkul have a strong affinity for eating your population, it is not surprising that they migrated to one of your planets. Note only one race can occupy a region so a planet must have a free/empty region for the Ithkul to move into.

[rhyssan]

Originally posted by Flinx
There have been several updates about migration since this thread was started.

Population can migrate from one planet in a system to any other planet in the same system even if it is controlled by a different empire. Since Ithkul have a strong affinity for eating your population, it is not surprising that they migrated to one of your planets. Note only one race can occupy a region so a planet must have a free/empty region for the Ithkul to move into.
where was that posted? i don't remember seeing it... :(

thanks!!
-rhyssan

[Vallius]

Perhaps the only way to destroy the Ikthal is to... AHEM!... take extreme measures. If they always spread, eating other species, the the solution must be to destroy Ithkul controlled planets rather than conquering them.

[Flinx]

Originally posted by QSI Programming in the M&M thread (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=3989706)
Well, I was looking at the code because everyone is seeing inter-empire migration some times, and it turns out that I was mistaken earlier. I have edited the first post in this thread to correct what I said previously.

It turns out that ALL planets in candidate systems are considered for migration, even if they belong in another empire.

[cousLee]

You stated you noticed the Ithkul about 20 turns later. Is it possible, that an Ithkul outpost ship landed the same turn as your colony ship, and you didn't notice the Ithkul region? Meaning the Ithkul outpost you noticed, might have been the second outpost ship to be sent there. If that is the case, you won a migration battle for the planet. (could also be the second outpost was ithkul migration from your own planet). Just a thought/possible explaination.

[rhyssan]

Originally posted by Flinx
<post from QSI>

thanks - i'd have gotten around to it eventually, but it was nice to get there quickly! :)

-rhyssan

[RobNelson]

@Flinx: Your link goes to quote and post, rather than to read the thread. Just so you know. :D

[Flinx]

Yes, it does. :cool:

[RobNelson]

OK, wasn't sure if that's where you wanted it. :D

[dkass]

My understanding (based on the quote and other statements) is even "worse" than Flinx's statement.

My understanding is that when migration is looking for valid systems, it goes into (but not through) blockaded and enemy controlled systems. Thus it doesn't even require an Ithkul colony/outpost in the same system. All it requires is one close enough to overcome the jump penalty to your system without other systems without ithkul (although if these are yours they are then vulnderable instead) or blockades. It seems that the only way to keep Ithkul in check is to immediately start blockading their outer systems. Remeber that empty systems cannot be "blockaded."

If true, this implies that it is possible (although unlikely?) to be "infected" before you even know there is an Ithkul out there...

[Flinx]

Originally posted by dkass
My understanding is that when migration is looking for valid systems, it goes into (but not through) blockaded and enemy controlled systems. Thus it doesn't even require an Ithkul colony/outpost in the same system. All it requires is one close enough to overcome the jump penalty to your system without other systems without ithkul (although if these are yours they are then vulnderable instead) or blockades.If this were true you would see planets of your race popping up in your neighbouring empires, and planets with your neighbours’ races (non Ithkul) popping up in yours, but this does not appear to happen. The only time I have seen inter-empire migration in my games is where shared systems exist, and that has also been the situation for all of the posts here.

[Actuarian]

From what I understand, there are huge negative push/pull migration factors for other players' colonies, so that it would be extremely unlikely that any cross empire migration would occur. My theory is that there are not these same negative push/pull factors for outposts, since they are not officially part of an empire yet. This would fit with the scenario given by Zanthras.

Any thoughts on this theory?

[Flinx]

Originally posted by Actuarian
From what I understand, there are huge negative push/pull migration factors for other players' coloniesThere is no such factor in the spreadsheets and QSI has said that if a population can migrate to one planet in a system, they can migrate to all planets in that system (provided there is a free region or a region with the same race). They may choose not to migrate for habitability or other reasons, but they still could if they wanted to.

[Norfleet]

Automigration to inappropriate places is probably one of the most annoying things ever: When an inappropriate race migrates to a planet which it hates or will eventually hate, permanently dragging down the productivity of the planet and refusing to leave, forcing you to give the ENTIRE planet away, glass it, and recolonize it. This was a major problem when I was trying to save the Rhea, an apparently endangered species in the galaxy: Those damn Bry-whazits kept migrating onto the planet, ruining it before I could get Rhea colony ships off the planet, forcing me to give it away and bomb it. Eventually, I became annoyed enough with their entire species that I simply had them exterminated en-masse, giving away many planets with them on it and glassing them. The migration thing is really annoying, because you can't have the undesirable people deported to a planet which would obviously be more to their tastes, and they refuse to simply LEAVE, which forces you to annihilate the entire planet. Lovely method of promoting good old "burn the village to save the village".

[Ron_Lugge]

Personally I'd recommend one of the mods that increases the migration pull to good planets, and push from bad ones. If you want, I can make one up for you (Just PM me with your E-mail)

[rhyssan]

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
Personally I'd recommend one of the mods that increases the migration pull to good planets, and push from bad ones.
the nice thing about this is that population.txt is read in whenever a savegame is loaded, so your brand spanking new mod will take effect in a current game... :D

-rhyssan

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
Personally I'd recommend one of the mods that increases the migration pull to good planets, and push from bad ones. If you want, I can make one up for you (Just PM me with your E-mail)
I'm fine with modding, I've already done some tweaks in the past. The problem is, none of the migration mods really do what I want them to do: I want one where a minority race always leaves, totally and completely, in short order. Not so much dependent on the quality of the planet, since I've intentionally colonized red2s just to preserve an endangered species, or to match gravity preferences, seeing as if I throw enough money at the problem, I can turn a red2 into paradise in about 3 turns anyway.

If you can just tell me which entries I should be tweaking to achieve THAT result, this would be most excellent.

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Norfleet
If you can just tell me which entries I should be tweaking to achieve THAT result, this would be most excellent.

I'm not certain thats doable. But if you increased the push factor for unsuitable enviroments to a *very* large negative number (-900, for example) and made SS/Paradise a large number (900?) you could get races to vacate unsuitable areas pretty fast. And since most races will find their habitablity doesnt' come near anyone elses (with a few exceptions) you can get pure-ish planets.

[rhyssan]

Originally posted by Norfleet
I'm fine with modding, I've already done some tweaks in the past. The problem is, none of the migration mods really do what I want them to do: I want one where a minority race always leaves, totally and completely, in short order. Not so much dependent on the quality of the planet, since I've intentionally colonized red2s just to preserve an endangered species, or to match gravity preferences, seeing as if I throw enough money at the problem, I can turn a red2 into paradise in about 3 turns anyway.

If you can just tell me which entries I should be tweaking to achieve THAT result, this would be most excellent.
you probably also (in addition to ron lugge's thoughts) want to mess with the PopulationMoving table. mine is based on phezzan's migration mod, and it speeds up the process of emptying a region quite a bit. the number of rows in the table is fixed at 7, but all the values can be changed. here's the version i'm using atm:

TableStart PopulationMoving
ColumnHeadingsStart PctFull Eligible
RowHeadingsStart
1 0.04 1
2 0.07 0.5
3 0.1 0.2
4 0.3 0.02
5 0.7 0.02
6 0.8 0.023
7 1 0.025
TableEnd


i think the breakpoints (2nd column) are still from phezzan, and they're part of what makes it an improvement. the smallest one is 4% full, and they can all leave in one turn! the official version's smallest cutoff is 2%, and prior to 1.2.5 it wouldn't let any of them leave... (which is why it's impossible to get a region emptied before 1.2.5 without a mod) at least 1.2.5 lets a region that gets down to 2% full clear out all at once. (i just prefer if they got down to the evacuation business a bit faster :) )

-rhyssan

[Ron_Lugge]

So thats what that table does!

[rhyssan]

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
So thats what that table does!
an extremely useful table if you want people to evacuate... ;)

-rhyssan

[dkass]

I originally posted
My understanding is that when migration is looking for valid systems, it goes into (but not through) blockaded and enemy controlled systems. Thus it doesn't even require an Ithkul colony/outpost in the same system. All it requires is one close enough to overcome the jump penalty to your system without other systems without ithkul (although if these are yours they are then vulnderable instead) or blockades.Originally posted by Flinx
If this were true you would see planets of your race popping up in your neighbouring empires, and planets with your neighbours? races (non Ithkul) popping up in yours, but this does not appear to happen. The only time I have seen inter-empire migration in my games is where shared systems exist, and that has also been the situation for all of the posts here.
I've seen some cases where there seems to be inter-empire migration beyond shared systems. In my current game (as the Raas), I have some gas bag population, but have never conquored any (they are may allied neighbors). When I first saw the gasbags on my planets, I searched our shared systems and all my planets in them were fully populated by my Raas. So I don't think it occured in a shared system. I could have missed the original planet (or it might have been from a subsequently destroyed outpost--but was definitely not from colonizing one of my neighbor's outposts). Also, in the same game, I found some Ithkul on a planet with no other Ithkul planets in the system (nor had there been any Ithkul since I last glassed the system). They might have been from the gasbag colony (if the latter had gotten infected elsewhere before we both recolonized the system), but I didn't see any other sign of it.

Apart from the Ithkul, it would be very unusual to see it happen (the AI is pretty good about controlling famines and unrest). I think it would have the same frequency as free outposts from from the starting race (ie almost never unless the player applies stress). Basically it has to overcome the jump penalty and the lack of existing population penalty with only the habitability pull. And, of course, the receiving player needs an open region. The Ithkul have the extra pull factor of "free range food" to get them coming though...

I realize my observations are in no way definitive. Unfortunately, I don't have a good game for experimenting right now. The easiest experiment might be to try to force some of the player's race to emmigrate by unrest/famine and then open neighboring races. Modding to use a positive jump "penalty" might get the action going as well....

[Onsy]

I've skimmed through all these posts but I don't see anything on how to get rid of the Ithkul. I don't want to give it away and then glass it because it has a magnate civ on it. There has got to be a way to get rid of them whether by military buildup, some kind of planetary add-on or by beating them in the population race. Please tell me I'm right. :)

[Flinx]

You are right.


Now give the planet away and glass it to get rid if the Ithkul.

[DePauwler]

I didn't realize that the Ithkul were such a problem. No wonder everyone goes to war with me when I play them. Which stinks since they have the best looking ships. :P

I think I saw the answer to this, but you can't take over someone's established colony with migrated Ithkul, they'll be considered part of that empire's population, yes?

What would happen if one did nothing? Assuming your empire didn't tear itself apart in revolt, would you eventually have a empire of Ithkul? :weird:

That would be a fun addition... Bug hunting! I would think this would be taken care automatically (logically). Since they're basically killing people, the police should arrest/destroy them.

Does giving away a planet and then destroying it cause unrest in your civ? I would think so, unless you hushed it up.

[Dotmusician]

Originally posted by DePauwler
Does giving away a planet and then destroying it cause unrest in your civ? I would think so, unless you hushed it up.
Doesn't cause unrest at all. But is a right pain in the arse. I use Bhruic's Savegame Editor to remove that 0.1 pop point that "miraculously" appears on one of my planets for no reason (alright, according to what's been said, it's a valid reason spreadsheet wise, but not in a "real life" sense... :p )

[Strifeguard]

Originally posted by Dotmusician
(alright, according to what's been said, it's a valid reason spreadsheet wise, but not in a "real life" sense... :p ) I don't know about the "real life" sense. After all, a handful of people managed to migrate into/out of the Soviet Union even during the height of the Cold War.

Granted, those people didn't need to eat other people, but still...

Originally posted by Dotmusician
I think I saw the answer to this, but you can't take over someone's established colony with migrated Ithkul, they'll be considered part of that empire's population, yes? Yes, the Ithkul that have moved to the established colony have moved there because they're seeking a "better living" than your empired provided, and thus have stopped being your citizens.

The advantage the Ithkul have in this case isn't that you'll take over full-fledged colonies through migration (which can't be done) but you will be able to take over MANY outposts, since you're citizens will try to move to any planet with an alien population on it. Thus, when your neighbors start up little outposts, your people will be able (and likely) to flood in, with perhaps a little coaxing from you (set migration, reduce unrest spending, etc.)

[DePauwler]

I just experienced this in my current game.

Is [race] labor not considered a population of [race]? I went to a system that, on one planet, hand Ithkul labor. I avoided settling it, but an ally came along and settled it. I can't tell what's going on with the population there (all it said was 59% Darlok or something). It's been 100s of turns and as far as I can tell, those Ithkul haven't escaped to any of my nearby colonies. Do I need not worry about Ithkul labor?

[Sam79]

I think XXXX Labor means that it's a source of forced labor (slaves/robots) and they're not a real population (ie. Magnates)

I don't think those migrate or count as a colony/outpost. Check the icon, I think it has the "Planetary Special" Icon and not the same icon as a population has in that window (which changes and represents unrest I think)