what race is best?

[thomas]

well what race would depend on what goals u personally have

when i first got moo3 i was like : yes yes yes lotsa ****in planets , lotsa ****in aliens , lets go human and destroy them all !!


well nowadays i know better

my own goal is to invest a LOT into econics, research and diplomacy untill i run into some reall potential threats

when the galaxy has its first high power empires i want to have a nice defence fleet ready in case they attack , i slowly want to add more fuel to the production of troops and ships untill i get so powerfull i can attack


what race and adjustments do u recommend ?

[The Big Joke]

Depends on your playing style
But the gas bags are suposed to be the best. As far as i undestand it production races are bethet than the rest.

[viciouscycle]

Depends a lot on your galaxy set up in the beginning of the game. I have found that races geared toward rapid expansion do not fare so well in small galaxies with a moderate to high number of opponents. Vice versa, races which have difficulty expanding quickly tend to perform poorly in large galaxies with a low to moderate number of opponents.

As was mentioned previously, the gas bag races tend to do well in general as do races designed for high production capability. In my experience (others certainly will have different opinions) Humans, Silicoids, Meklars, and Grendarl tend to be weak races while Evon, Raas, and Cynoids (and the gas bags of course) tend to be the stronger races.

[Rellin]

In single player I play Tachidi and raise thier bioproduction to normal and creativity to original and lower ground combat stuff to poor. I think they are pretty good and I am able to expand extremely fast.

[CKHO2]

don use havesters if you are new, they almost never find green planets, mostly red to them.

[Craig P.]

The gasbags get the best planets (big and mineral rich) plus they have massive hardcoded advantages to production and, I think, research.

Harvs are tough -- they don't get a lot of green planets, and they're at war with pretty much everyone they meet, and they tend to unite everyone against them (thus removing distractions for opponents).

[herknav]

Harvs are a lot tougher after the code patch. Used to be you could make them into a huge destructive force, (by reducing all the combat mods to poor), but post patch the AI hates you and there are restrictions on moding them. They are definately a different race to play. If you hate the diplomacy in this game, well, the Harvs are great... don't have to ever worry about diplomacy.. :)

[thomas]

k.. i havent given the gas bags a try yet..

but the way i understand it every gas (giant?) planet is green or sweet spot 2 them.. that offers some huge expansion possibilities! , if they do well in production and research as well they might indeed be the strongest although i find the silicoids nice 2.. : )

[herknav]

Originally posted by thomas
k.. i havent given the gas bags a try yet..

but the way i understand it every gas (giant?) planet is green or sweet spot 2 them.. that offers some huge expansion possibilities! , if they do well in production and research as well they might indeed be the strongest although i find the silicoids nice 2.. : )

Not every Gas giant is great for them.. but the ones that are are larger than comparable planets for the other races. A green 2 subsistance por for the gasbags is better than any for the other races... because they are so much larger....

[thomas]

nice : )

[Da_Blade]

I generally do not like gasbags that much. Try tachidi, meklar or even sakkra/raas. Customize them for high production and let them roll, they kick those evil gasbags out of the universe!

But it's all a matter of playstyle really. The gasbags have big planets, with a lot of pop. This makes them both easily defendable and easy to beat. A gasbag empire is often a lot smaller in number of planets and systems then a tachidi empire (who dwell very small worlds). This means a gasbag empire needs less big fleet to defend everything, which translates into the ability for them to produce big ships on those big planets. The tachidi need a big fleet to defend properly, but they have a lot of planets, so you're best off designing smaller ships, so you can build them on all your little planets.

The con of the gasbags, imo, is that IF someone breaks through your defenses, you immediately loose a lot. One gas giant fully build up is usually quite important. A tachidi size 4 world, is usually just one of many. Having a lot of worlds keeps your opponent from raiding your empire too fast. Even if he has the technology to bomb every planet flat in one turn, it takes him 3 turns to bomb 3 size 4 planets, but it only takes him one turn to bomb one size 12 world.

In the end it all comes down to a preference really. I've had good success the last couple of games with a tachidi customized for high production.

[thomas]

might be usefull : )

i wonder why i always run into the ithkul so damn early in the game :(

[Jomungur]

In addition to their preference for big planets, the gasbags get an intrinsic +3 research efficiency bonus and a +4 manufacturing efficiency bonus. Thus, they get the research bonus of the psilons and the manufacturing bonus (but not the extra income generated by eating minerals) of the cybernetic races. Customize them for superior research and manufacturing to take advantage of these traits.

If you can find a few of those size 12 very rich extreme gravity planets, especially early on, you will have a sizeable edge over the rest of the races.

Most MPers feel they're unbalanced and ban them in MP games. (mainly because of those efficiency bonuses mentioned above). Still, if you're playing SP check them out, they're a lot of fun when you get nice planets nearby.

[Da_Blade]

I've played some MP games with gasbags, and found them not to be unbalancing at all. Because of their planet preference they are more easily managed, and thus easier for the average player, but with good tactics you can have much better other races.

Tachidi have 135% population growth, if you keep expanding and play smart this translates into ~35% overall production bonus, research, mines, food and production. Also, tachidi/cybers are very strong early game. If you use this strength to overtake another race early on in the game, you'll be strong all game long :)

[Jomungur]

Well, I said most MPers not all...feel free to disagree :) The fact is, at least in GameSpy and amongst many of the tournament players, a lot of veteran players will not allow gasbags in the games.

On a green or sweet spot size 12 planet, I've found that the gasbags population growth rate can exceed even the Tachidi's because of the way pop growth is tied to the max population of the planet. This gives them, on these planets, a comparable boost to productivity from pop to the Tachidi, along with the efficiency bonuses that the Tachidi do not get and the advantage of being able to concentrate lots of industry DEAs on a single planet.

[Beamup]

Another disadvantage to the gasbags is real but subtle. Due to their hab ring, they are less likely than the other races to find the most useful magnates (Rhea and Darloks), as these planets tend to give splinter colonies instead.

Another subtle advantage of the humanoids is that they get paradise planets from defeating guardians. No other species does.

Just keep in mind that race picks aren't everything - there are some very subtle effects like these that, while perhaps less important than +4 manufacturing, are still relevant.

[thomas]

man quicksilver really did a nice job on creating those races

all races are about balanced with their dis and advantages

except for the antarans / new orions but u cant play those smarty pants.. lol

this might seem annoying but actually its brilliant , it always offers a fair chance in a game but continious new gameplay:)

[Craig P.]

Originally posted by thomas
man quicksilver really did a nice job on creating those races

all races are about balanced with their dis and advantagesPlay long enough, and you'll probably come to disagree with that statement. I think it's generally accepted that there are winners (gasbags), losers (humans, silicoids), and middle-of-the-road races. Hopefully, the next data patch will have some good player-directed play balancing.

[Leilu]

Originally posted by Craig P.
Play long enough, and you'll probably come to disagree with that statement. I think it's generally accepted that there are winners (gasbags), losers (humans, silicoids), and middle-of-the-road races. Hopefully, the next data patch will have some good player-directed play balancing.

I agree the races are not fully balanced, but the fun is that they are differents and allow for multiple play style depending on wich you choose :)

Usually, MP is based on small galaxies, so it's a one kind of a game usually based on early conflicts and quick conquest. It's not surprising that some races perform better in those settings.

I'm not sure the same races would perform as well in big galaxies with less conflicts :) In those games, research oriented species and able to grow fast would probably be very hard to beat when encountered...

Well, this is based on what I know of the game so far :)

[Beamup]

Originally posted by Craig P.
Play long enough, and you'll probably come to disagree with that statement. I think it's generally accepted that there are winners (gasbags), losers (humans, silicoids), and middle-of-the-road races. Hopefully, the next data patch will have some good player-directed play balancing.

They aren't that bad, though. The races are all viable - it's not like a novice playing Imsaeis will always beat an expert using Humans. Sure, you can be at a disadvantage, but the differences are (AFAICT) at a level where player skill can readily make up for it. Most games that try for this level of variety are much less balanced. Unification/Tolerant, anyone? That WAS a combo with which a novice could easily beat an expert who chose not to use it.

So I'd say that right now race balance isn't bad, but it could be better.

[thomas]

talking about gas bags reminded me of something

gas bags are eoladi or imsaeis ?

anyway things might not be as balanced to u seniors as 2 my rooky ass but hell , ive seen a LOT of games in my days and im telling u they always had 1 side wich had head and shoulders of advantage over the others so that everybody played

in comparison to other games i still think its very very well done

[Da_Blade]

I absolutely agree with thomas here. MP games are not the "all-imsaeis" games some think they are, but are actually quite diverse in races. This weekend i've played against meklars, eoladi, evon, trillians and tachidi. This means some people definately have different preferences. I am still currently weighing the tachidi's extra growth against the sakkra/raas' preference for larger planets. It's a preference, it;s what fits in your particular strategy. Though i admit the humans are not really up for an MP, at least there's a few good races to choose from instead of the one you see in most games.

[thomas]

hehe yes i was quite amused to find the human race not extremely well in the advantage for a change..

by the way i noticed da_blade has a bit of a tachidi thing going on ;)

I have only checked them out for a quick game when i didnt even knew how to build ships ( just a matter a fact all games were quick.. i simply ran into war in 20 turns and got defeated cause i didnt know how to incert my warship designs into production.

after reading last few posts i assume gas bags are imsaeis hehe

[Jomungur]

The gasbags are the Etherian races: the Ismaeis and the Eoladi.

I've never seen anyone claim that the races in MP games are all Ismaeis. Nor have I ever seen anyone claim that the gasbags are unbeatable. I do think they're the strongest race, which was the main question of this thread.

There was a point in time, maybe about 8 weeks ago, when a lot of the MP games involving veterans on Gamespy had half or more players selecting the gasbags. People got tired of that, so they decided to play without them. (Search for some of the old threads with "gasbags" in the title, and you can see some of the discussion back then from people complaining about them.)

Now the most popular races in MP seem to be the trilarians, evon, cybers, tachidi, and klackon. The choice of certain races in MP immediately raises a newbie MPer flag in my head: humans, silicoids, and psilons.

Beamup is right: a novice playing the gasbags will not beat an expert playing the psilons, or even the silicoids. But when two veterans play each other, the imbalances between the races show up more clearly. Is this imbalance crippling to the game? Certainly not. But it could use some tweaking, and I'm sure some sort of MP mod will be used after the final code patch, to help out some of the weaker races and tone down some of the stronger ones.

[gfish22]

I have played many single player games, almost always as human, yes I am a glutton for punishment :D . Under AI control the gasbags, fishies, and of course the ithkul seem to do well.

The gasbags in particular seem to be overpowered, rarely are they ever not in the upper ranks in terms of game score. Regarding humans, I think taking away the economics picks is what has "broken" them. Generating extra AUs would be a tremendous advantage, since you would gain both increased production and research, granted it has taken many games and fooling with dev plans for me to gain even this modest insight.

Have to agree with other posters though, the Psilons never seem to do well, which is odd for in MOO2 (yeah I know totally different game) they could be a force to be reckoned with.

[Hikari]

Other people have already explained that the "best" race is dependant on dozens of factors, including but not limited to: the size of the galaxy, the number and quality of specials, the number of opponents, the types (races) of opponents, and the victory conditions set.

However, if you want to know which races just have the best stats on paper, I'd have to say Harvesters and Meklar. These races get huge diplomatic penalties (pretty much everyone hates them from the word go), but still manage to be consistently competetive in games both large and small.

Factoring in diplomacy, the Harvesters take a big hit, but the Meklar stay near the top of the pile. Post-patch, every game I've been in has seen any Meklar players consistently in the Top 3, often even #1, dropping from that spot only when I actively go out and take it from them. Even with their huge diplomatic penalty, the Harvesters tend to score between 5-8 in my 16 computer games, which I think really says something about just how nasty they can be - especially since the computer doesn't use them even close to right (how could you NOT invade as Ithkul?).

I have not seen this "unstoppable Eoladi" problem. I can only assume it has something to do with an abusive player-customized version, because the stock ones fold like umbrellas in single player match-ups.

[Orionator]

My customized Imsaeis have grabbed a Rhea magnate world and Rheans are immigrating all over the empire.

They're a real nightmare for the unrest they cause (causing me to toy with the idea that "Citizenship" picks are a big waste) but their ground forces are incredibly strong.

I took Imsaeis because I saw an episode of Cosmos about possible life evolving on gas giants and thought it was cool.

Little did I know they were one of the top-rated species. :)

Back to "Citizenship" picks ... magnates are a huge factor in your expansion and colonization, because they increase your empire's effective habitability range. Magnates also have their own ideas about loyalty to the empire.

Even a single region in unrest will totally screw up your planet, because that single isolated region of rebelling Rheans can magically fly up into space and destroy your orbital facilities ... all the while all the other regions populated with Imsaies are giving the "thumbs-up."

To appease that one region I have to lower taxes, micromanage DEA's to get some morale buildings going, assemble armies, switch off migration in hopes the Rheans will simply leave so loyal Imsaiens can take over, and of course check on the anti-piracy patrols. I have to take care of the whole planet just to get one region to stop revolting.

So what's the point of citizenship picks? You need magnate worlds to expand, and citizenship picks don't apply to magnates. Magnate species will 99% of the time occupy at least one region of any given planet, even if it's red-2 to them, and even one region totally nullifies any gains you might have received from improved citizenship. Why bother?

[Sabin402]

Put a gov or military DEA in the region they inhabit. Or you can make a Rec Specific planet on a crappy planet in every other system to help deal with Unrest.

[Vorlock]

I think the reason to bother with citizen picks is because then you ONLY have to deal with that one troublesome region, and not an entire troublesome empire. Think how much worse it could be. Any unrest i dont have to deal with is race points well spent.

[AlanC9]

Just to stick up for humans a bit, they ain't half bad in SP. The diplo bonus means that you can usually keep the AIs off your back long enough to outdevelop them.

[thomas]

well i dont know about you , but im having the bad habbit of always running into the friggin ithkull before anything else :(

[DavidByron]

Best race for me is probably still the Klackon despite the population growth nerf. If you are expecting to conquer other races there's little point in creating a high production modified race if it will be out population growthed by a conquered race such as a Saurian race. I found that quickly my starting race was less than 50% of the population.

[Rickhan5]

The terrible Ithkul are my fav to play.
After some tinkering with various modifications here is what i play during
Single Player.

Bio- Good
Mining-Good
Manufacture-Sup
Research-Sup
Trade-avg
Enviro-avg
Accuracy-Avg
Reflex-Good
Toughness-Good
Diplomacy-Poor
Goverment-Absolutist/Constitutional Monarchy
Citizenship-Loyalty
Rich
Diverse
Spying-Sharp
Creativity-Adaptive
Tolerant/Antaran

Right now I'm in a small cluster,16 AI,Lots of Long Star Lanes, Impossible,
Frequent random events, More planetary specials.
I plan on working my way through larger sized galaxies, but right now i am interested in testing out the this beta-patch and looking forward to more player-freindly fixes.

[thomas]

oh my , you really like those beans sharp & hot eh ? ;)

I am starting to agree with Da_blade , customised tachidi arent bad at all !

however i find the eoladi settings ( i havent played them yet.. hehe im saving the candy for later ;) )
ever better

[LazyViking]

I really like the Meklars, they get a HUGE production bonus, and they just look ten times cooler than ther rest! Read my Overexpansion Strategy. (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=302524) That's usually how i play the game. I try to get as many planets as possible, then move in for the kill. :D

:cool:

[Skymage]

Best Race?

It depends on a number of things such as:

1> your play style (are you aggressive and use every last ship to attack? or are you the type that builds up then overwhelms your opponent {thats me ;) })

2> Type of galaxy -- large vs small, many starlanes vs few, many opponents vs few, etc.....

3> your opponents style of play -- are you playing against the computer AIs or against Humans


In a larger galaxy where I have time to expand I'll play one of the stronger late game races (like Psilons :up: ), if I play a smaller Galaxy (or more crowded) I'll play a Manufacturing/Growth race (like the Klackons)


@LV
I'd like to see your overexpansion work against a Manufacturing/Growth race such as Klackons in a small galaxy (I'd be interesting to see if you get out of unrest quickly enough)

SkyMage

[thomas]

hmm the problem with the big fast guys in long games is generally that u become so powerfull that you cant really use the power you have 100% , on the other hand you mostly wont need to.

[Orionator]

My really big planets seemed to cruise along at 4k GNP forever, then all of a sudden skyrocketed to 20k-ish. My homeworld's production seems miniscule by comparison.

If you can wait for them to grow, the advantage these powerhouses give you would seem to be unstoppable.

I thought I had expanded aggressively, yet my worst enemy, the Cynoids, have way more planets and ~30% more population than I do ... but ... their planets are pitiful, even if their combined GNP and population is higher. I seem to be building bigger and better ships, while their swarms of smaller ships are dropping like flies.

It would seem one city is worth a thousand trailer parks.

[Da_Blade]

Originally posted by Skymage
@LV
I'd like to see your overexpansion work against a Manufacturing/Growth race such as Klackons in a small galaxy (I'd be interesting to see if you get out of unrest quickly enough)


Remember he uses his meklar production to crank out huge amounts of colony ships, if he has nowhere to send out those colony ships (small galaxy) it is just to easy to crank out warships instead of colony ships.

I have played against him with a customized tachidi and was able to maintain good pace with him, though it hasn't come to a war with him, so i do not know how it would fare agsint me in a full-out war.

[thomas]

hehe yeah the meklar s production is massive..

i still have to customise them

my type of play is mostly like this ->

i start out in a way to large galaxy , mostly medium starlanes (long) with about 9 races (i like the peace youll have at first)
i focus on economic development as on research (and ofcourse colonisation)

as soon as i have a few planets succesfully running i start running a warfleet

i use this as a defensive measure untill my investments start to pay off in terms of production and technology
after that i focus on production of ships *did i say ships ? i meant a LOT of ships :D*

and ofcourse then i surprisingly am not the nice guy people took me for and i mainly like to crush their little empire

what type of adjustments to the meklar stats do u advice for my gameplay ?

[Poptoad]

I wish I'd seen this post earlier...I'd have just tacked my own onto the end of it.

The point about different galaxy types affecting a race's seems crucial. MP games are mostly in small, crowded galaxies just to keep the game time down to a few hours. And it seems from reading these forums that most SP games also tend to fall into the same basic type: large or huge galaxy, lots of players. Are the victory conditions simply not designed to handle a huge 2-player game? Or an SP small 16-player game?

Here's a thought: for the slow growth races, you'd want to pick your advantages with a thought to managing your MAGNATES more than your own pop, since before long they'll be out-numbered anyway. You'd buy a good government, and all the long-term racial picks would go out the window. This would give you a huge number of points to concentrate on the jumpstart advantages.

Just a few thoughts, and plus I learned a lot from reading this thread. For the sake of other newbies, I didn't want to let it die.

Poptoad

[Shogo Yahagi]

Eoladi rule.
Gasbags float on immense worlds.
Population booms.

[S1LeNce]

im playing a highly succesfull eoladi game right now
my tech is WAY above anyone else although i stopped my colonisation (due to the friggin size of my empire and the others)
my homeworld has a production of an estimated 123 K (!!!!)
i think that's the highest ive ever seen

[tardis]

As it comes to a single race I guess Ithkul is the best. Actually it's designed to be the only race. In MP without AI players, the war penalty is not that nasty: just have have "wars" with them "allies".

But Ithkul is not my fav. that's silicoid.
Currently I'm playing SP Silicoid/Audrieh. Silicoid have a couple of production bonuses that add up quite nicely and they're not completely numb-skulls. And they like high-G worlds. Robot races are actually better in using warships, but I like the sheer amount of production comming from a size 10+ world. Actually I hate robots because I hate size 3 planets. Erhm size 3 asteroids that is :haha: .

[PiP]

Amen! Another rock-lover! (not in the literal sense... :P)

Decent planets, cool pink ships, and every worthless biologic worked to extintiction creating even more cool pink ships...
Shame about the spies tho...
Never mind :rolleyes:

[Poptoad]

It may only be a size 3 world, but it's stunning how many people those robots (and the insects) can fit on those little bee-bees. It seems that they can put as much pop on a size 3 as most races can on a size 5. That's because the bugs and the 'bots are subterranean.

I'm not quite sure how that affects gameplay. Their DEAs get worked a lot harder, I suppose. Same number of DEAs, more pop = what? More efficient use? More over-driving? I'm not sure, since I don't play either of these races. It would be quite interesting to read about, though.