Effective fleet composition?

[Davebax]

I have been playing my current game now for seems like ages. I started badly (inbetween) two guardians. I didnt make contact with any other races till around turn 70+ (had made sure I collonised all the planets on my side of the second guardian) and it was another 14 turns before I made the trip through the first empires space to a place where I could start the 'second leg' of my empire. As I am playing Eoladi with points put to bioharvesting and manufacturing it actually put me in a good position.

As such I have been in a long war with several (all 6) other races I have met. Namely due to the one that hates me (cynoid) getting the others to declare war (which has led to the fun of getting a non-aggression pact offer in the same turn as beng declared war on several times).

Having re-named a few of my systems 'Alimo I, Alimo II' etc I thought about 'are my fleets working well'?

At the time I had my fleets made up of the 5 of the heaviest CV and IDF (each). Led to a few draws, but on the whole, I would lose 10 ships every 5 turns or so depedning on which empire (there are currently over 2,500 enemy ships camped at one of my systems) got their ships into the combat.

Then I changed the composition. I designed SD's in 5 differnt versions.

1). Long range beam weapons, no PD
2). Few beams, mostly my heaviest missile type, no PD
3). Few beams, mostly fighters, (disrupters, interceptors), no PD.

All the above designes are set to long range attack.

4). Few beams, mostly LFG's of various sizes. Mission set to PD.
5. Same as 4, but mission set to Recon.

I usually have 3 of types 1,2 and 3 and the rest of the space is given over to 4 and 5 depending on what I have in my reserves.

Since I have started using this composition my losses (I kept the one system using the old fleets to compare) have been less.

My current tech allows to me to build the LEV, but the SD's seems to be very cost effective as well as combat effective at the momment.

Is this a good way to design ships? Giving each design a speciality with regard to the weapons they have but keeping the mission the same? Has anyone else found the opposite true?

[Davebax]

Forgot to add that I use 6 of the aboce task forces along with 2 IDF and 2 CV working as support.

[Daveybaby]

I build the following

Standoff Core
Hull size : Largest available
Weapons : 50% missiles, 50% Interceptors, NO BEAMS
System speed : 10-20% of max
Mission : IF or Carrier (makes no difference AFAICT)

Standoff PD
Hull size : 1 or 2 down from largest
Weapons : 100% light mount PD
System Speed : 10-20% of max
Mission : PD

Standoff Escort
Hull size : 1 or 2 down from largest
Weapons : 100% spinal beam
System Speed : 10-20% of max
Mission : SR Attack

Attack Core
Hull size : Largest Available
Weapons : 100% long range beam (heavy or spinal)
System speed : maximum
Mission : LR Attack

Attack PD
Hull size : 1 or 2 down from largest
Weapons : 100% light mount PD

Recon Picket
Hull size : 2 - 4 down from largest
Weapons : none
Specials : 50% sensor, 50% eccm
System Speed : maximum
Mission : recon

All ships have max armour and shields, and are stealthed.


I build two types of task force: standoff and attack

Standoff Armada
Mission : IF or Carrier
10 Standoff Core
4 Standoff PD
2 Standoff Escort
2 Recon Picket

Attack Armada
Mission : LR Attack
10 Attack Core
6 Attack PD
2 Recon Picket


There should be enough PD in each TF to take out pretty much anything. When you have a group of TFs close to each other, then the combined PD is overwhelming. You can then focus your attacks on one or two of your enemy's TFs at a time.

[Buggerthis]

If you are going with the all LR mission builds, then you can do without PD mission types. All you need is LR and Recon (since the LR armada requires 14 LR and 2 Recon). If you are reducing speeds on your CV and IF builds then reduce speed on your PD builds also since any excess is wasted.

I like that myself since it really means that PD built ships are stuffed with beams compared to the faster LR and Recon builds, does wonders for your point defense and defensive fire when that nasty enemy beam TF tries to close up with you. For my defense fleets on frontier systems I like 6 CVs, 10 PD and 2 Recon in the armada.

And yes, I haven't gone all out for the pure LR fleet. It looks superior, but sometimes it is nice to be able to manually target the CV mission TFs on the assault, like on the enemies nasty IF and CV TFs (seen as they are not the ones barrelling down at you like the LR/SR TFs).

[James1701]

LR TF's (and SR TF's for that matter) would be a lot more effective if retreating were not so easy and the AI were not so apt to run. LR and SR is best used in masse in circumstances in which retreat is not a viable option. If QS were to add a tech for blocking retreat or if they make retreat harder or take longer then the effectiveness of beam armed ships would get a real boost.

That said I always try to include at least a couple of LR or SR armadas in large scale attacks becuase they can soak up 2-3 times the amount of missle fire that a CV or IF TF can, particularly if armed with multifire weapons.

Also, a note about recon ships. You didn't mention how much sensor tech you put on your recon ships. Packing as much sensor tech (best sensor system w/ multiple of ECCM modules) is critical to success. At least IMO.

[DeckPrism]

I like Renax idea of an LR design that largely has pd missiles with a few heavy missiles thrown in. This will fire likely before you can select your TFs and will overwhealm any pd defense. It also does a decent fighter clean-up role. Then make a good carrier design again with a strong emphasis on interceptors to overwhealm plus a few strongest punch SCF. Put LFGs on every ship for defense and what can the other guy do? Form these into armadas. Another LR or SR armada and you are set. Max out your armor too for survivability.

I've also taken to lately not putting more of one class of weapon (beam, fighter, missile) on a ship than it would take to destry a ship of the same class with the same armor, or the expected armor. Then my armad should take out thier armada with 1 shot and have plenty of space for defense or better sensors. Plus the 3 weapon type will likely take out multiple armadas "simultaniously" dues to different arival times.

[MooMaster]

what about cloaking devices?
are they worth the space and cost?

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by MooMaster
what about cloaking devices?
are they worth the space and cost?

I've always felt so.

I usually add the best cloaking I have, plus (depending on size) a couple of ECMs...

[Rikaelus]

Am I the only one who is urked by the fact that you can't make fleets consist of what you want them to? I mean... you control an empire but are confined to certain templates? Frustrating.

Which is why my ships don't always reflect the "mission" I give them. I'm around turn 650 right now and have begun construction of a very powerful, but really cheap fleet. Cheap as in easy wins against... like... anything. Well.. anything the computer can come up with, anyway.

I don't remember the exact stats, but my standard armada core consists of 12 Leviathans, each with 52 PD weapons and I think it's 4 volleys of 10 tubes worth of 4 missiles with omega warheads... I think. Needless to say them alone can take out atleast 3 or 4 enemy armadas in one volley and easily dispense of any incoming missiles of fighters -- unless grouped together and overwhelming.

In the infinite ineptancy of the computer AI, though, I've found that if missile-only armadas lose track of the enemy fleet, chances are the battle will never come to an end -- so there's a draw. Enter the escort carriers. Also Leviathans, these ships contain a combination of fighter bays and missile launchers (for an added armada punch). The sole purpose of the fighters is essentially recon, to keep the missile ships familiar of where the enemy is so they can continue to send salvos.

My last two ships (yes, Leviathans) contain a large number of ECM and ECCM mark 5's, along with cloaking devices and a few PD weapons just in case.

Needless to say, this makes the game easy. I'm currently at war with 4 races and defensively hold off three of them with ease. Then I just have a fleet of 15 missile leviathan armadas and blow the crap out of planet after planet-- very rarely with any loss of ships.

[Ron_Lugge]

ECMs are worthless unless all ships in the TF have the same number - the most easily detected ship is the one used when deciding if a TF is or isn't detected.

[Rikaelus]

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
ECMs are worthless unless all ships in the TF have the same number - the most easily detected ship is the one used when deciding if a TF is or isn't detected.

Err... yuck. I thought they created a field, of sorts, that would encompass the whole TF.

[DeckPrism]

@Rikaelus: What size galaxy? What difficulty level? I'm thinking if you had that much superiority you ought to have won by now (turn 650, yikes).

Be glad; the templates used to be more resrictive, IIRC.

[Rikaelus]

Originally posted by DeckPrism
@Rikaelus: What size galaxy? What difficulty level? I'm thinking if you had that much superiority you ought to have won by now (turn 650, yikes).

Be glad; the templates used to be more resrictive, IIRC.

Post-patch on easy in a huge 3-arm galaxy, I believe. It was my first serious (non-learning) game so I set it on easy so not to be discouraged by getting my arse kicked. I turned senate leadership off (obviously) since in a previous game I didn't realize what it meant and the game was ended while I wanted to keep going.

P.S. To developers: for the love of god give us the option to continue playing even after someone wins or loses! Well.. unless you're completely wiped out, of course.

[DeckPrism]

Originally posted by Rikaelus
P.S. To developers: for the love of god give us the option to continue playing even after someone wins or loses! Well.. unless you're completely wiped out, of course.

This is known as turning off senate and x victory conditions. You can still get elected pres and still find x's, but no one will win until every last planet is either unowned or owned by them.

[Rikaelus]

Originally posted by DeckPrism
This is known as turning off senate and x victory conditions. You can still get elected pres and still find x's, but no one will win until every last planet is either unowned or owned by them.

Uhm.. I know.. what I'm suggesting is a way to play on even after victory conditions are met by someone. Like right now, on turn 650, I'm not even a member of the senate. Had I had senate victory on, the game would have abruptly ended. But even having lost, I would have invested a lot of time into my empire and might not want to just let it go.

[DeckPrism]

Back before one of the patches, you could reload from the previous autosave. You'd skip right past the election, that time.

[TheGreyWanderer]

You can still do that post-patch for the senate victory. I lost to the senate vote twice (wasn't even in the senate then) and won it at least 3 times before I stopped that game. Just reload the most recent autosave; you will see a message in the sitrep that you had been elected president, but the game goes on as normal until the next election.

[Skymage]

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
ECMs are worthless unless all ships in the TF have the same number - the most easily detected ship is the one used when deciding if a TF is or isn't detected.

Ron,

I believe you are wrong on this one. Cloaking is that way but not ECM.


SkyMage

[Da_Blade]

Originally posted by Skymage
I believe you are wrong on this one. Cloaking is that way but not ECM.

Nop, ECM is on a per-ship basis too, tested and proven by yours truly.