Red planet, Green planet

[Litcube]

What's the difference?

The only difference that I know for sure, is that the fertility of regions will, on average, be considerably lower the further the planet is from sweet spot.

What other differences are there? Population limit? Reproduction?

[zanzibar]

one difference is... the amount of colonists that survive upon landing on the planet. Another is, on a red planet you usually can't grow food.

[balragh]

iirc the maintenance on a red 2 planet should be higher. and there is no tech that allows you to farm on a red two without terraforming it to at least red 1 (yellow 2?) first.

and yes, the population will be lower, which in turn limits the amount of enhancements for a dea or at least the productivity of that dea. last but not least the push factor on a red two should be pretty high, meaning population growth will be even slower cause people might prefer the sweetspot planet in the next system over the toxic wastedump they live on right now

[Flinx]

You pay huge teraform costs on red planets each turn which reduces the amount you have to spend on useful things like research or building ships.

[Litcube]

So "keeping" the terraform stasis costs money? Is it significat? Do wehave figures on that?

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Litcube
So "keeping" the terraform stasis costs money? Is it significat? Do wehave figures on that?

It doesn't seem to cost too much per turn, however it does tend to add up a little as time passes.

:mad:60:mad:second:mad:limit:mad:

[Da_Blade]

The drawbacks of colonizing yellow and red planets is, besides the ability to farm, higher maintenance cost, lower maximum pop, and signifantly lower population growth.

As for terraforming and maintenance: last i heard on this subject is that it is an intial high maintenance, that gets lower and lower over time.

[Litcube]

Sweet.

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Da_Blade
The drawbacks of colonizing yellow and red planets is, besides the ability to farm, higher maintenance cost, lower maximum pop, and signifantly lower population growth.

As for terraforming and maintenance: last i heard on this subject is that it is an intial high maintenance, that gets lower and lower over time.

And these are the reasons why you want to backfill your empire with other races when doable.

[Litcube]

Ahuh! I see. Makes sense.

[zanzibar]

Since other races might think the red and yellow planets that you find to be green, it's best to leave these be (unless it's a yellow 1 mineral rich... since you can grow food on yellow 1's...), and wait until you get other species into your empire. This saves on terraforming costs, and maintenance.

[Litcube]

Very interesting. I didn't know.

So what's your method of colonization then? Manually creating specialized "race" colonies, and manually checking their terraform zone, and then manualyl searching for the in the galaxy map.. That can be tedious, no?

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Litcube
Very interesting. I didn't know.

So what's your method of colonization then? Manually creating specialized "race" colonies, and manually checking their terraform zone, and then manualyl searching for the in the galaxy map.. That can be tedious, no?

I just let the computer handle it. Its quite good at selecting the right race to the right planet, when I'm not in a mineral shortage (when it automaticly begins to prioritize rich planets, ignoring race).

edit:

which is why I always have green worlds selected for a colony in the early game.

[Flinx]

Originally posted by Da_Blade
The drawbacks of colonizing yellow and red planets is, besides the ability to farm, higher maintenance cost, lower maximum pop, and signifantly lower population growth.

As for terraforming and maintenance: last i heard on this subject is that it is an intial high maintenance, that gets lower and lower over time. I thought it was the exact opposite. As you terraform the planet further and further away from it's natural state the higher and higher the costs to maintain it in it's new terraformed conditions.

[Litcube]

The problem with the AI performing the colonization for me (besides the 12,398,264 colony detatchments sent to land on a single planet), they don't group up the colony ships to land. I always try to get a Wave of colony ships to land on a planet. Gives them a good start.

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Flinx
I thought it was the exact opposite. As you terraform the planet further and further away from it's natural state the higher and higher the costs to maintain it in it's new terraformed conditions.

You misunderstood him. The farther from the default, the higher the cost, but the costs reduce over time (e. g. it gets easier to keep the planet in its current state)

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Litcube
The problem with the AI performing the colonization for me (besides the 12,398,264 colony detatchments sent to land on a single planet), they don't group up the colony ships to land. I always try to get a Wave of colony ships to land on a planet. Gives them a good start.

Thats one reason I said *early* game. I usually keep enough planets marked that that doesn't happen - especially since I unmark any planet that gets a colony ship sent.

[Flinx]

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
You misunderstood him. The farther from the default, the higher the cost, but the costs reduce over time (e. g. it gets easier to keep the planet in its current state) Possible. I have started cranking taxes to 45% as soon as I get the wrong race on an auto-colony, glassing the breakaway empire, and sending the correct race to the planet.

I am going to start testing my own migration mods soon to stop this ridiculous behaviour.


oh I think i.e. is what you should have used not e.g. :p ;) :D

[Litcube]

In my current game, I have humans where they shouldn't be (on red planets). Is there any way to get them off? You mentioned tax rate. Will that empty the colony?

Edit: Ooooh dear. Don't do that. Not only do you loose the planet, but it's friggin' handed off to the highest bidder. I now have 5 ithkul planets smack in the middle of my empires.

[Iskabis]

there's a migration mod that can empty a region at a time. which is probably better than emptying the planet, since as soon as a region is empty it will come up as available for migration to the other races in your empire. that way you don't have to lose the colony, though it probably takes longer. (i have it installed, but haven't played any games far enough yet to see it operate :( )

i think it's phezzan. file is population.txt, obviously, and i'm pretty sure there's a link to it in this thread somewhere (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=302011)

-rhyssan

[Litcube]

It's there, you're right, but how does it work?

Does it simply move everyone from bad planets?

[Iskabis]

in general, people like to be on an inhabited planet (in general, ignore those few that go traipsing off by themselves for the moment). and they like to be with their race, their empire, etc. so once someone gets to a region, they don't want to leave - they've got friends there. his mod changes how many of them can leave at once (allowing the region to empty). and maybe it increases some pulls, to make them more likely to want to go?

the main thing, i believe, is allowing the region to empty (which the default data files don't). most of his other numbers are not much changed from default. i thought he discussed it some, somewhere, but i'm not sure where now. i just found one thread where it got mentioned when i was looking for a link to give you. (didn't try to find all of his posts regarding it, i mean)

-rhyssan

[Litcube]

Oh. I see.

Well, thank you very much for the information. I supposed I can get up off my lazy ass and search for it myself.

Much appreciated.

[Iskabis]

oh - and if you just want to kill them all off, i've got a tech you can add to your tech table...... i call it the Poison Pill Distribution Center. lets you invade ithkul planets and just kill the buggers off in 1 turn, then recolonize with your own people :D.

-rhyssan

[Litcube]

Hmm.

I wish I understood migration and population more. Can Ithkul just walz in and start populating your already populated world without colony ships or troops?

[Bhruic]

Yes and no. If Ithkul are part of your current empire population, and there are free regions (ie, regions without population) on the planet, then yes. AFAIK, in all other situations, no. The only time you can get population migrating from other empires is if you land a colony/outpost ship, but don't fully colonize the world. If it's considered an "outpost", races from other empires may migrate there (although I believe stationing ships in the system blocks this). You can get Ithkul that way as well.

Bh

[Iskabis]

ithkul "food" == other people.
if you have ithkul in your empire (unless you're playing ithkul), this is a catastrophe. they're eating your colonists. and they'll migrate to your other worlds and eat those colonists too. eventually, all you have is ithkul.....

what i'm saying, though, is the same as the migration that happens in your empire already. you know - the way you can have 2-4 races on a single planet? that happens without colony or outpost ships.

i don't believe population can jump empires by choice, though. there's a bug you can hit, but in general, as long as you never share a planet with any ithkul, you're safe.

what i mean is, if you have an outpost, they can drop people on it and race you to see who gets the colony. if you "win", now you've got ithkul. (kind of a pyrrhic victory... :( ) same thing - if there's an ithkul outpost, don't pop-drop it! (land colony or outpost ship)

-rhyssan

[Iskabis]

bh - do you know more details of how phezzan's migration mod works? i only remember the general idea...

-rhyssan

[BlackHat]

Originally posted by Iskabis
oh - and if you just want to kill them all off, i've got a tech you can add to your tech table...... i call it the Poison Pill Distribution Center. lets you invade ithkul planets and just kill the buggers off in 1 turn, then recolonize with your own people :D.

-rhyssan

I remember a thread from awhile ago someone talked about trying to make a tech like that, but he never posted it.

Did you make this tech, or was this just a joke? :)

Later,
BlackHat

[Bhruic]

Originally posted by Iskabis
ithkul "food" == other people.
if you have ithkul in your empire (unless you're playing ithkul), this is a catastrophe. they're eating your colonists. and they'll migrate to your other worlds and eat those colonists too. eventually, all you have is ithkul.....

A common misconception, but actually incorrect. Ithkul cannot migrate to a planet without a "free" (ie, non-populated) region. Unless you colonize a world with Ithkul on it extremely early in the game, they won't have the ability to spread to most of your worlds.

Similarily, Ithkul only consume 10% of the "food" population. If the "food" population has a growth rate larger than that (and with many techs, that's quite possible), the Ikthul will never consume the population fast enough, leaving you with a shared planet.

(nope, don't remember the details of that mod)

Bh

[Iskabis]

i made it. if you're remembering what i remember, the person said they made it mPopGrow+=-50 and that that had turned out to be enough to kill everyone in a single turn. so that's what i did - but only just now got a game going that i'll be able to try it out on. (first few had problems bc i set it at TL0, then didn't realize that putting it as HIDETHIS would mean i couldn't see it to build it, etc.)

so, yes i've made it, it shows up where and when i expect it to. no i haven't tested it yet - the game hasn't gone on long enough for me to invade a planet and build it.

i expect the AI to not build it, since it has nothing to recommend it in the way of stats - the one mod that the AI would care about is negative. and i know the AI checks values on the mods bc if you use +=0 on an improvement it won't get built. so my belief is that this will work - but i posted it here as a joke, since i'm pretty sure that this isn't what he was looking for..... :)

-rhyssan

[Iskabis]

Originally posted by Bhruic
A common misconception, but actually incorrect. Ithkul cannot migrate to a planet without a "free" (ie, non-populated) region. Unless you colonize a world with Ithkul on it extremely early in the game, they won't have the ability to spread to most of your worlds.

Similarily, Ithkul only consume 10% of the "food" population. If the "food" population has a growth rate larger than that (and with many techs, that's quite possible), the Ikthul will never consume the population fast enough, leaving you with a shared planet.

(nope, don't remember the details of that mod)

Bh
truth??? well, not about the free region - i already knew that (now that we can see the region/pop info). but i colonize/expand pretty heavily throughout the game, so it remains a concern for me beyond early game. (last couple of games pre-patch, i was desperate for this and didn't know how to do it. not that it would've helped a game in-progress without your savegame editor, which i also didn't know about...)

however, i didn't know what the consumption rate was. i'm glad to hear it's so low! is this a value in a spreadsheet, or hardcoded? (and i'd still rather not have them in my empire unless i'm playing them! doesn't having them increase unrest? as your pop is afraid they'll get eaten?)

thanks,
-rhyssan

[Litcube]

Save game editor? Are you talking about BH's editor?

[Iskabis]

Originally posted by Litcube
Save game editor? Are you talking about BH's editor?
yep. version 0.4 due out RSN!
(ok, within the next 7 days :) )

i said 'your' because it was his quote i was replying to - sorry if it wasn't clear...

-rhyssan

[BlackHat]

Originally posted by Iskabis
i made it. if you're remembering what i remember, the person said they made it mPopGrow+=-50 and that that had turned out to be enough to kill everyone in a single turn. so that's what i did - but only just now got a game going that i'll be able to try it out on. (first few had problems bc i set it at TL0, then didn't realize that putting it as HIDETHIS would mean i couldn't see it to build it, etc.)

so, yes i've made it, it shows up where and when i expect it to. no i haven't tested it yet - the game hasn't gone on long enough for me to invade a planet and build it.

i expect the AI to not build it, since it has nothing to recommend it in the way of stats - the one mod that the AI would care about is negative. and i know the AI checks values on the mods bc if you use +=0 on an improvement it won't get built. so my belief is that this will work - but i posted it here as a joke, since i'm pretty sure that this isn't what he was looking for..... :)

-rhyssan

When you have tested it, post it in the Monthly Symposium topic. I would love to see it.

Later,
BlackHat

[Litcube]

But BH's editor can't edit planets...

Man, when I get confused like this, my head hurts on the left side. Like, right above the ear.

Painful...

..I'm tellin' ya.

[Iskabis]

Originally posted by Litcube
But BH's editor can't edit planets...

Man, when I get confused like this, my head hurts on the left side. Like, right above the ear.

Painful...

..I'm tellin' ya.
with his savegame editor, i could've added the PPDC tech to the game where i wanted it. and then used it! :D

(and planet editting is coming... :) )

sorry 'bout your head..... :eek:
-rhyssan

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Litcube
Very interesting. I didn't know.

So what's your method of colonization then? Manually creating specialized "race" colonies, and manually checking their terraform zone, and then manualyl searching for the in the galaxy map.. That can be tedious, no?

I usually let migration handle colonization after I "assimilate" other races into my empire... since unrest pushes 'em to migrate, I just do a few wild swings on the oppressometer... and walla!! migration... ;)

[Litcube]

There's got to be a way to get a certain race off of a planet.

For example, I have a fungal race populating a size 11 planet. Filled with Industry. My own race is far better at industry than they are. I want *my* race on that planet, not them.

[Buggerthis]

After I get this current game under control (That is I'm not spending 90% of my shipbuilding to hold the line, it seems I picked a true nodal system between 4 empires and the NO. There are several battles every turn, I've only lost control once.....), I'm planning on starting a nonIthkul (probably Meklar or Klackon) and actually going and hunting up some Ithkul to see if they are that big of a problem. After all, I'm basically running an Ithkul/Darlok/Eoladi/Human/Sakkra/Elerian/Gnolam/Trilarian/Brye Ets/Ajadar/Audrieh/etc. empire as it is with Ithkul all over the place. Doesn't seem to be much trouble really. There may be some effect as terraforming requirements change, but not that I've noticed so far.

[Phezzan]

Originally posted by Litcube
There's got to be a way to get a certain race off of a planet.

For example, I have a fungal race populating a size 11 planet. Filled with Industry. My own race is far better at industry than they are. I want *my* race on that planet, not them.
Is the planet Yellow or Red for them? - Is the gravity outside their comfort zone?

If both answers are no - there's nothing you can do short of killing the whole planet to get them off.

emigration is caused by overpopulation, unrest, and the "Set migration" button. The most 'Push' is from 'Set Migration' (50 pts). 2nd most is from Unrest 3 (30 pts). Revolt is 22 pts. Overcrowding is based on Population. 'Set migration' push can be ignored IF the planet is a migration target and (or ?) there are more jobs than people...?

A bug allows people to migrate across empires if the two planets are sharing a system. In order for a new race to migrate to a planet there must be an empty region for them. 10% of the Ithkul's Pop is 'eaten' out of other races per turn. Silicoids are 'eaten' into minerals, Non-Corporeals aren't eaten, but EVERYONE else becomes BioHarvest.

Migration Mod
My migration mod allows regions that are almost empty to emigrate away, so that other species can use the space. The pull modifiers for planets are modified to make races avoid uncomfortable worlds and new worlds are more appealing than the default numbers.

Humans will NOT migrate to Gas Giants, even if you 'Set Migration'.

The push for unrest is decreased and the push for revolt increased, so that revolt has more push than unrest 3. The push for 'Set migration' is decreased, so that it won't always be the overwhelming factor in determining emigration, just usually.

The problem where an race with a large full world will not migrate to new / small worlds is lessened.

This mod (http://macavity.hn.org:8080/population.txt) will make auto migration outposts more frequent, but outposts and even colonies, will occasionally be abandoned. The AI is pretty good at using this 'feature', so it doesn't make the game easier, if anything - the AI will get more colonies, and their inhabitants will be more efficient, making the sp game harder.

Phez