Hydroponic farms

[DavidByron]

Do hydroponic farms ever get built on planets that actually need them? ie Red planets? Are they broken?

[Da_Blade]

Currently Hydroponic farms and subterreanian farms only get built on planets with bioharvest EAs, as they are the only planets where the VR desires to improve the BioOutpt (or something alike ;)). This is a bug Tom Hughes denies in the economics 101 thread, but it certainly is there (did some testing on it, even with a farming primary they do not get built).

Don't know for sure if this was fixed as well in the fixed VR for 1.2.4, they just said "VR builds buildings it would normally never build"...

[Iskabis]

you can try a small mod to get them built - i think it works but haven't gotten far enough in my real game to check it. (test game it worked, though)

in TechTables, the lines for Hydroponic Farms and Subterranean Farms: add "Infra+=1, Infra+=-1" at the end of the list of modifiers (inside the quote marks).

there's an easier way to get just the viceroy to build them, but then you give yourself an(other) advantage over the computer players.

-rhyssan

[malekith]

in TechTables, the lines for Hydroponic Farms and Subterranean Farms: add "Infra+=1, Infra+=-1" at the end of the list of modifiers (inside the quote marks).

I played through a couple games with the +1/-1 trick for hydros. What I found was that +1/-1 might be a bit too high.

If you go and look at the actual infrastructure improvements they have only +.25. I personnally do not think hydros deserve four times the weight of the real infrastructure improvements.

What this resulted in, if infrastructure was stressed in the dev plans, was planets putting everything else on the back burner (no more DEAs) untill the world was full of hydros. It was a bit humurous, but not terribly efficient.

[Mithyk]

Originally posted by Da_Blade
This is a bug Tom Hughes denies in the economics 101 thread, but it certainly is there (did some testing on it, even with a farming primary they do not get built).

Don't know for sure if this was fixed as well in the fixed VR for 1.2.4, they just said "VR builds buildings it would normally never build"...

I've read about this, but it is a bug that I haven't experienced. Even pre-patch I've had hydroponics on my red colonies. Now, post patch I get them on nearly every region of my red colonies.

[Iskabis]

Originally posted by malekith
I played through a couple games with the +1/-1 trick for hydros. What I found was that +1/-1 might be a bit too high.
that was my concern with only having tested to see if it worked, rather than playing out a longer game with it. i thought it ought to be a bit lower of a value, but this was part of a batch of things to add and all the others used +-1 as values. (so at the time, i didn't want to break it out specially - the trick was aimed more at weekender modders than the real hardcore ones who would be likely to catch the value being odd for Infra.) so. i'm exceedingly glad to hear your experience with this! and will change my own mod to use +-0.1. that's right around where i thought it ought to be - somewhere in 0.1-0.2 range.

however, i didn't experiment with that particularly, since you get hydros really early on and can often get them built before any other improvements come along to be clogged out of the RBQs. and i would think that, since all the other Infra modifiers are 0.25, that any number lower than 0.25 would be just as good as any other number. i'm not sure it would ever trade off one thing that just mods Infra against another thing that just mods Infra. OTOH, maybe that's why the Infra modifiers are lower than 1.0, so that it will build BioHaEff or MinEff or other improvements before Infra? they're mostly 1 or higher, so having Infra lower could just be to keep it from clogging up the RBQ.

i'm not sure how all Infra is used - i suspect it goes into filling the univalue circle, and that might require that it have modifier values <1.0, also. most people lost interest in the techtable change since QSI said they were fixing the problem (for some buildings, anyway), so i didn't get to discuss these concerns with anyone at the time. (everyone was happy to have most of the problem solved, and almost immediately QSI announced their coming fix, so we never got down to the nitty gritty details... :( )


<snip>
What this resulted in, if infrastructure was stressed in the dev plans, was planets putting everything else on the back burner (no more DEAs) untill the world was full of hydros. It was a bit humurous, but not terribly efficient.
interesting... but i wasn't so much interested in fixing the DevPlans (there are other, easier ways to fix the DevPlans to get these built). what i was mostly looking for was a way to get the AI CPs to build them - relieve some of the food shortages the AI empires reputedly face.

-rhyssan

[malekith]

i'm not sure how all Infra is used - i suspect it goes into filling the univalue circle, and that might require that it have modifier values <1.0, also.

I'm pretty sure, if you wanted to, you could set infra higher than 1.0. That would just result ingreater than a 100% improvement in DEA efficiency in the region the modded building was built.

For instance, if I forgot the -1 on the modded hydros, they'd have the exact same effect of all four infra improvements combined (along with producing .5 food).

Apparently, after perusing modifiers.txt, infrastr is given the same weight as all the other modifiers. So a +=0.25, will result in a lowered priority for infra, actually significantly lower. Also, again according to modifiers.txt, BioOutPt, has around 5 times the weight of most other modifiers. Don't really know what that means.

As for the Dev plans, I knew that you didn't really have them in mind (actually the whole point of the fix was that it wouldn't be dependant on dev plans), but in my my mind hack solutions to buggy behavior should not be the domain of modding. Most of the purpose to the mods I do are improvements to my own experience (getting dev plans to build what I want when I want it). I leave the AI stuff to the people who have all the tools (read: QS). I commend you for trying, though.

If you really want some feedback though, Id actually put hydros up around +/- 0.4~5 if you really want the AI to stop starving itself. Or you could up the importance of infrastr in modifiers.txt as well. But, its all well within the realm of "try it and see".

[Thrakutter]

I like to play at a very low tech rate, so I get to pay attention to what shows up and what does not.

In my present game, I get no hydroponics until the planet produces at least one (1) agriculture DEA. I have had planets sit idle for centuries without a hydroponic farm, until I build that one agriculture DEA, then hydroponic farms sprout like weeds all over the planet.

Once I noticed this, I went down my list of planets and found a couple of others without agriculture DEAs (small planets who were better suited for mining and agriculture), gave them an agriculture DEA, and . . . poof . . . suddenly I'm surrounded by hydroponics.

Now, the problem is, I can't build an agriculture DEA on a yellow 2, or red world.

"Sorry. We have no food. You gotta wait until some type of relief crew can blast through that enemy blocade up there before you get fed."

[Iskabis]

Originally posted by malekith
I'm pretty sure, if you wanted to, you could set infra higher than 1.0. That would just result ingreater than a 100% improvement in DEA efficiency in the region the modded building was built.
Infra results in a DEA efficiency boost? or did you mean setting some of the *Eff values to higher than 1?


For instance, if I forgot the -1 on the modded hydros, they'd have the exact same effect of all four infra improvements combined (along with producing .5 food).

right - that's the reason for the trailing -1, to make sure nothing really gets changed for real. don't want to disturb game balance, just get the CPs building them.

Apparently, after perusing modifiers.txt, infrastr is given the same weight as all the other modifiers. So a +=0.25, will result in a lowered priority for infra, actually significantly lower. Also, again according to modifiers.txt, BioOutPt, has around 5 times the weight of most other modifiers. Don't really know what that means.

i knew the weight was the same as far as i could see (modifiers.txt), but i don't know what all it's used for in-game. the 0.25 might have other reasons to be below 1, though obviously they could've scaled later if it was critical... the BioOutPt being so high might be an (unsuccessful) attempt to get hydros built. i've heard reports of people getting the very rare hydro built on red planets before, which could be consistent with that. i didn't want to boost that, though, because since i never personally saw a hydro built on a planet with no Bio DEAs, it seemed possible that somehow BioOutPt could be subjected to the same tests as "can i build a Bio DEA here - nope, it's red so no farming". which would mean it isn't helping get the darned things built. i know the AI likes to build Infra stuff, though, so i added the Infra modifier rather than play with anything that was obviously linked to Bio.

As for the Dev plans, I knew that you didn't really have them in mind (actually the whole point of the fix was that it wouldn't be dependant on dev plans),
exactly!!

but in my my mind hack solutions to buggy behavior should not be the domain of modding.
depends. i figured this out the day before (maybe 2 days before) the patch went to QA. some MP people were hoping that since the bug hadn't actually been fixed, QSI could put this hack (or something similar) in place so that they could play with the default patch and still get the bugfix. so that's the origin. however, if i have to wait for the patch for something i can just as easily fix myself (whether it's a bug or just something i don't like), i'll fix it myself every time. i never posted it as a mod, and wouldn't dream of doing so - it's a hack, and the need for it will hopefully go away once the final version of the patch is out. but i'd happily post instructions for how to do it so that people who feel the same way as i do can have some kind of fix now...

Most of the purpose to the mods I do are improvements to my own experience (getting dev plans to build what I want when I want it). I leave the AI stuff to the people who have all the tools (read: QS). I commend you for trying, though.
diff'rent strokes... i'm not patient enough to wait for patches if it's a thing i can do myself. i had some of the ws files modded within a couple of days of the game coming out - i wanted more information in various places. i could've waited for the patch, they promised more info in the data patch. but i'm not that patient, and what if they didn't happen to put in the info i specifically wanted? so i disagree with you, but thanks for your commendation :).

If you really want some feedback though, Id actually put hydros up around +/- 0.4~5 if you really want the AI to stop starving itself. Or you could up the importance of infrastr in modifiers.txt as well. But, its all well within the realm of "try it and see".
super - thanks!!! (i do want feedback - did then too, but not enough to start a begging thread for it... ;) )

thanks for your comments!
-rhyssan

[DavidByron]

I get no hydroponics until the planet produces at least one (1) agriculture DEA

I confirm that. You won't get hydroponics or subterranean until you have at least one BioDEA on the planet.

[DavidByron]

By the way is it correct that GovDEA improvements like Monuments will never turn up in an unmodified game currently?

[malekith]

Yep

[Da_Blade]

Nop, they won't turn up, but you can modify it in such a way it does turn up, in your empire as well as in the AI's. Also, that one is fixed for sure in the upcoming patch.

[DavidByron]

For purposes of comparison, I don't like to use any mods. It's a shame about so many techs going to waste like this. Makes the social research field almost useless too.

[Da_Blade]

Well, it'll be fixed next patch. Or should be at least...

[TommyLV]

I get no hydroponics until the planet produces at least one (1) agriculture DEA

I confirm that. You won't get hydroponics or subterranean until you have at least one BioDEA on the planet.

This needs a little clarification because I have many planets in my current game that produce from 1 to 12 food with no BioDEA. However I believe that all of the planets were captured from other empires.

I conclude then that the Viceroy for the Human player will not built hydroponics or subterranean but that the Computer Empire Viceroys will.

BTW still playing unmodded and unpatched, just want one sole survivor victory before I change.

[Iskabis]

Originally posted by TommyLV
This needs a little clarification because I have many planets in my current game that produce from 1 to 12 food with no BioDEA. However I believe that all of the planets were captured from other empires.

I conclude then that the Viceroy for the Human player will not built hydroponics or subterranean but that the Computer Empire Viceroys will.

BTW still playing unmodded and unpatched, just want one sole survivor victory before I change.
interesting!! i wonder if that's true of all the people who've reported seeing a few hydros on red planets! if so, just making the (simpler!) devplan fix would be sufficient for this problem. which would be very cool, because hydro on red planets wasn't one of the specific improvements mentioned that they fixed in the 1.2.4 patch. (gov improvements were mentioned specifically, and TH was going to look into planets not building hydros when they could, but i never saw a followup post from him about it)

-rhyssan

[malekith]

I wonder how late in the game some of the people seeing hydros on red planets are. After Biomorphic Fungi and Mineralmorphic something-or-other you can farm any planet. That could mean that, after the tech advances, the computer has the motivation to build farming related stuff, but if there are no open regions for farm DEAs it does the next best thing and builds hydros.

That's all just specualtion, though.

[Iskabis]

good point. i've seen it reported quite rarely, and i never thought to ask what stage of the game they were in.

hopefully it'll be fixed in 1.2.4, and this will all be moot :).

-rhyssan

[Hikari]

Tommy, is it not possible (and a whole lot more likely) that the planets in question simply had a Bioharvest DEA before the invasion, and it (but not the Hydroponics) was destroyed in the ground fighting?

The Viceroy AI for players and the computer is completely identical as far as anyone knows. I have never heard of nor seen myself any evidence to the contrary. Not saying it isn't possible, here, just applying a little of the old Razor.

[TommyLV]

Tommy, is it not possible (and a whole lot more likely) that the planets in question simply had a Bioharvest DEA before the invasion, and it (but not the Hydroponics) was destroyed in the ground fighting?

I concede that it is possible except for the sheer number of planets in question. I have dozens that have hydros and sub-t farms and no BioDEA.

When I invade, I generally use Low Intensity and Low Collateral Damage and no NBC because I want all that developement left intact. I have not paid much attention to whether or not a newly conquered planet has all its DEAs built but I will keep a eye on that going forward.

There is another thing related to this that I have observed in some of these captured planets - they have GovDEAs and MilDEAs stuffed to the gills with all the improvements that the Viceroy will not put in my DEAs.

[Da_Blade]

Did the obvious thing and opened up an AI empire and looked around. First thing that i noticed was that it is HARD to find an AI planet without bio DEA's, but found a few; none of them had hydroponics or subterranean farms.

As for gov and manufacture upgrades etc; i saw a few, but i've been playing with a mod that enables the VR to build them for a while now, so can't comment if it really builds them.

[TommyLV]

I had a few ideas that I checked out last night.

First I counted the number of planets that had some food production but no Bio DEAs, there were 60 (well 61 but the food on that was Ithkul snacks). I have no idea how many total planets I have.

Second I thought that perhaps these planets were from empires that do eat organic food. Wrong, they icluded all the magnates except Rhea and all the player species in the game including some Klackon which is my empire and therefore those planets were not aquired through conquest.

Third I checked the habitability ring and none of the planets were red, most were green or better.

Da_Blade I would offer to send you a saved game but the file is on my laptop at home and I'm guessing that it would not fit on a floppy, which makes it tough to send from work.

All my evidence leads to the conclusion that hydroponics and subterranean farms get built once the tecnology is available.

[Strifeguard]

Okay, this is going to sound really mean, but are you sure about your results?

I went through my games and found the exact same thing, many worlds (it was about 30 for me) were producing food but had no bio DEAs. However, I later realized that these were my "core" worlds, and they had no bio DEAs because I had ripped them out long ago.

Is it possible that the worlds you saw didn't have bio DEAs on that at *some point* in the game, but now no longer have them? After all, 60 worlds without any bio DEAs suggests a late-stage of the game, which means you had quite a few turns to make changes. I'm not saying you're lying, I'm just saying that I think any conclusions should be drawn from a fresh, *controlled* game, not from saved games that happened to be around.

[Da_Blade]

I'm afraid i can only come to the same conclusion. Worlds that do have them had bioharvest DEAs at one time. This becomes even more apparant if you open up a big AI empire in MP. Since the AI never rips out DEAs (to my knowledge) you see there very clearly the only planets that produce any food are the ones with bio DEAs.

[TommyLV]

Okay, this is going to sound really mean, but are you sure about your results?

Yes I am. What I report as facts are what I see in my game. Conclusions, hypothoses, conjectures, theories et al are labeled as such.

FYI I am playing an unpatched unmodded game, biggest three arm spiral galaxy, 16 (I think) AI opponents, using slightly modified Klackon. I am at about turn 500 and still have about 200 planets to conquer and I have no idea how many planets I control (adding a counter to the Planets screen would solve this issue, click on some filters - get the number of planets that match those conditions.) So this is not some "saved games that happened to be around", it' a game I started before the patch was released and have been playing regularly since.

As for the history of the planets in question, I have no way of knowing what the Viceroy did or did not do before I took them over or even what my viceroy did until recently. I was playing a hands-off kind of game letting the viceroy do whatever he wanted except for the 4 planets with the highets industry points. Those I would put what I wanted in the MBQ.

Then I got to the end of the Tech Tree and I started to remove all the research DEAs (gawd what a pain) and I have been going through the entire list of planets every turn looking for test tubes and scrapping them. Thats when I noticed that some planets have 1 to 12 food ( a lot have none).

So it's possible that the BioDEAs got destroyed during the invasion, but not likely 60 times. It's possible that I removed some of the BioDEAs inadvertantly but not all of them on 60 planets, especially after having read Econ 101. It's possible that the AI viceroys removed the BioDEAs after the hydro and sub-t farms had been but even you say that is not likely.

So I will finish by saying

1) If a theory or hypothosis does not agree with or explain all the facts, you must thow out the theory not the facts.

2) In your controlled experiments the finding that the viceroy has built very few or no hydros or sub-t farms without buidling a BioDEA first is not proof the the viceroy CANNOT build one without the other, just the he is very unlikely to.

3) What the hell does Tom Hughes know anyway? (This is a rhetorical question and is meant to be sarcasm and should not be taken very seriously).

[Da_Blade]

Well sorry to break your balls... But i just ran two games auto-turn to turn 250, only planets with bio DEAs have hydros/subterreanians. Opened up a few (not all because i got tired) AI games and same story there. And since you cannot say for sure what happened on those planets, i cannot do anything else but eliminate your data.

If you have one data set which is produced differently from a whole load of other data sets, and this data set is significantly different from the other data sets, you have no choice but to eliminate the data set due to it's different origin. ;)

[TommyLV]

Well continuing to beat a dead horse.

Does any one know how durable DEAs are during an invasion. If BioDEAs are not likely to survive an invasion then may be the explanation (Hakari suggested this earlier). I use Low-Low-no NBC-Ruse but if BioDEAs are fragile this wipe them out anyway.

In your auto run games do you have any idea how many planets changed hands and how many DEAs were there were before and after?

It's possible too that somehow my whole game is buggered. I have a paradise planet that is toxic. I kid you not. I know that it is not supposed to be possible but I have (at least) one.

[AlanC9]

Tommy, you say you're seeing food production on worlds without Bio DEAs. Have you looked to see that Hydroponics are actually present on those planets? I'm just wondering if maybe there isn't something else going on in your game.