Two Races, One Planet [Archive]

DavidByron

07-07-2003, 01:29 AM

My understanding is that they will never ever leave no matter what. Some might migrate but the region will always belong to those who stay behind. Unless race 'A' is Ithkul perhaps but I doubt even then....

Has anyone ever seen a race lose a region once it has been settled?

Ron_Lugge

07-07-2003, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by DavidByron
Has anyone ever seen a race lose a region once it has been settled?

Yes.

:mad:60:mad:second:mad:limit:mad:

zanzibar

07-07-2003, 12:05 PM

I really don't see what's so bad about having multi-racial planets...

Da_Blade

07-07-2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by zanzibar
I really don't see what's so bad about having multi-racial planets...

Same here....

And also, imo it's just plain rude to tell billions of people (each pop point is roughly a billion people) to get out of their homes.

Thrakutter

07-07-2003, 12:56 PM

I consider this to be the most problematic part of the game at this time (post patch).

In my present game, I had to land humans on two magnate planets to get them to join me. Consequently, humans now control 40% of one planet, and 45% of the other. Humans are not suited for these planets, and I want to get them off and allow the magnate race (which is adapted to the planets) to take over. It is turn 350, and I have no evidence that the humans are leaving.

In other instances, I accidentally land an outpost that contain a race other than the one I want on the planet. I discover my mistake several turns later when the outpost becomes a colony. Again, I want the humans to move to greener pastures and leave the planet to those that consider IT to be 'greener pastures'.

Again, I see no evidence of this happening.

[Note: I am opposed to giving the planet to an enemy and glassing it. As for forcing the eviction of "several billion people" -- I am much more inclined to offer an incentive package to the residents, paid for by the billions of dollars of increased productivity that would result from the transfer.]

Litcube

07-07-2003, 09:04 PM

Bingo.

I'm actually surprised that quite a few of the veterans of this forum don't see a problem with this issue.

Buggerthis

07-09-2003, 02:18 AM

Originally posted by Litcube
Bingo.

I'm actually surprised that quite a few of the veterans of this forum don't see a problem with this issue.

1) Well, when I'm cranking along with 100+ planets, I really don't give a horse's arse about the stray regions.

2) You could always play Ithkul, it fixes both diplomacy and most of these issues in time. :D

Now, the one thing I am wondering is that after my Ithkul become dominate on a planet originally dominated by someone with quite different temp/pressure likings, how is all the terraforming handled? Instant switch or what?

DavidByron

07-09-2003, 02:28 AM

There are roundabouts and swings. I can see having Silicoids as a positive advantage on many planets. Mostly it is a disadvantage but I don't think it's such a huge one. You can prevent it but only by restricting migration to the point where your growth suffers. I'd prefer the mixed planets to that.

I would be very interested to hear how / if a region can become depopulated (in an unmodified game).

Remember that with moons you have different hab-zones anyway so no race is perfect. Also the worst issue is the gravity and gravity modifying techs can make the planet simulataneously green for everyone.

herknav

07-09-2003, 02:41 AM

I guess I don't see the problem... human have always been settling where "the establishment" does not want them. I accept the "penalty" of those 3 Evon regions on my 12 region gasbag planet as the price of doing buisness as a galactic emporer.

Ron_Lugge

07-09-2003, 03:14 AM

Originally posted by Buggerthis
Now, the one thing I am wondering is that after my Ithkul become dominate on a planet originally dominated by someone with quite different temp/pressure likings, how is all the terraforming handled? Instant switch or what?

It stays at the same place it was when they first moved in, and you have to move it to where they want it (i. e. you have to "un-terraform" it back to its orinal state if it started as a good planet for Ithkul, or terraform it from its starting state to whatever level you can manage.

Buggerthis

07-09-2003, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
It stays at the same place it was when they first moved in, and you have to move it to where they want it (i. e. you have to "un-terraform" it back to its orinal state if it started as a good planet for Ithkul, or terraform it from its starting state to whatever level you can manage.

Ok, so if it is colonized by a hot/high race and a cool/low race with the h/h dominate and, say, yellow2 to both, then it will head towards paradise for the h/h, which will make it tend towards red2 for the c/l race. When the c/l race becomes dominant, do all the terraform techs get 'rescinded' moving it back to yellow2 and then get reapplied moving it towards the c/l paradise setting?

GAH, NM, I'll watch for a likely planet (think I have one now) and see what I can do about having the Ithkul eat/run off all the scumbags and watch what happens.

teecee

07-09-2003, 03:16 PM

Modders are working this issue.

The Genetic Decoupler (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4055178#post4055178) will eliminate an entire planetary population without damaging any of the infrastructure. You can then land colony ships of the appropriate race. Just be sure to remove the building when you recolonize.

There is a lot of brainstorming on a regional solution, but none has been invented yet.:D

tc

ps - Must start a new game.

TommyLV

07-09-2003, 03:32 PM

Also the worst issue is the gravity and gravity modifying techs can make the planet simulataneously green for everyone.

Are you sure? The gravity modifiers are planetary builds, do they work on a regional basis?

Iskabis

07-09-2003, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by TommyLV
Are you sure? The gravity modifiers are planetary builds, do they work on a regional basis?
if you read the description, they don't actually change the gravity the same all over - they create "pockets" of more or less gravity wherever on the planet you need them. so it's able to make the planet better for everyone at the same time - they each have their own little personal gravity space surrounding them at all times... :)

-rhyssan

Beamup

07-09-2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by TommyLV
Are you sure? The gravity modifiers are planetary builds, do they work on a regional basis?

Yes, they do. Their function is not actually to change the gravity of the planet (per se). What they do is simply reduce the penalty. So if you're Evon on a Negligible-gravity planet and build a gravity modifier, the gravity stays Negligible, but the penalty is now only for yellow gravity, not red.

Since this is how it works - reducing the penalty instead of actually changing the gravity - it does indeed make it better for everyone.

TommyLV

07-09-2003, 04:10 PM

Assume that a planet is mostly full of a species for whom the gravity is green but one region has people for whom the gravity is red. Is Roy clever enough to build gravity mods for the minority population? Or do I have to add them myself on a planet by planet basis?

teecee

07-09-2003, 04:33 PM

Even if the PV is smart enough build the gravity generator where it will do the most good, that still doesn't affect temperature and humidity (or is it air pressure?). Aren't those the major determinations for the habitability of the planet?

I have planets that have 2 races on them where they both favor similar gravity but have different tolerances to temp and air pressure/humidity.

tc

Da_Blade

07-09-2003, 06:18 PM

habitability only affects maintenance costs and pop growth. Gravity directly affects production, which is much worse late game.

Beamup

07-09-2003, 06:33 PM

Having one or two regions inhabited by another race has some distinct advantages some people don't seem to realize (in some cases).

Consider the case where you have a 6-region planet, one region inhabited by Silicoids to whom the planet is Red1. The rest of the regions are inhabited by Evon to whom the planet is Green1. What will be the result?

- You can put mines in the Silicoid region, which will produce much better than if it were Evon.
- The total population of the planet will be somewhat lower.
- BUT, all the Evon on the planet contribute to the DEA productivity from population... which affects all DEAs equally.
- The mining DEAs will be producing almost as well as if the planet were Green1 to both races!
- All DEAs will lose a little bit of productivity due to the somewhat smaller population, but not much.

So, you get the advantage of being able to use the different racial bonuses, while losing only a little bit of productivity from population. This can often be a HUGE advantage. And in general, you won't lose much even if you can't really use the racial modifers to any advantage.

Litcube

07-09-2003, 07:17 PM

That advantage, though, BeamUp, isn't a player created advantage. That scenario is far less common than the ability to specialize.

Besides, those silicoids could possibly be put to better use on a mineral rich planet where they're green1.

Beamup

07-09-2003, 09:04 PM

Hey, I didn't claim it always happens, I said it happened "in some cases." And it does.

Also, having some Silicoids on one planet doesn't mean there are fewer elsewhere - given how colony ships work, quite the opposite, in fact.

Ron_Lugge

07-10-2003, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by Buggerthis
Ok, so if it is colonized by a hot/high race and a cool/low race with the h/h dominate and, say, yellow2 to both, then it will head towards paradise for the h/h, which will make it tend towards red2 for the c/l race. When the c/l race becomes dominant, do all the terraform techs get 'rescinded' moving it back to yellow2 and then get reapplied moving it towards the c/l paradise setting?

GAH, NM, I'll watch for a likely planet (think I have one now) and see what I can do about having the Ithkul eat/run off all the scumbags and watch what happens.

It will terreform to whichever race is dominant. As the area becomes more unsuitable for the other race, they'll start migrating out (may or not be faster than their natural pop growth)

Neofelis

07-10-2003, 04:26 AM

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
It will terreform to whichever race is dominant. As the area becomes more unsuitable for the other race, they'll start migrating out (may or not be faster than their natural pop growth)

Nice. Is there somewhere an exact clarification on this by QSI? Two days ago I read a post that stated that a planet can be, with all terraforming techs available, sweet spot to all different races on it.
Ron, your post sounds much more logical, but since it was another one of the fans who seem quite well-informed (I don´t remember which one, mostly due to having no coffee left at home...) I am completly unsure now. Insecurity is a cause of unrest.

Ron_Lugge

07-10-2003, 04:58 AM

Originally posted by Neofelis
Nice. Is there somewhere an exact clarification on this by QSI? Two days ago I read a post that stated that a planet can be, with all terraforming techs available, sweet spot to all different races on it.
Ron, your post sounds much more logical, but since it was another one of the fans who seem quite well-informed (I don´t remember which one, mostly due to having no coffee left at home...) I am completly unsure now. Insecurity is a cause of unrest.

Different regions can have different habitability, that may be what the other person was talking about. Or I could be wrong. I think I'm right; but you'll probably want to check.

TommyLV

07-10-2003, 11:30 AM

Having one or two regions inhabited by another race has some distinct advantages some people don't seem to realize (in some cases).

An exception to this would be The Elders, who do everything well.

My colonizing strategy now is to use only the Elders to try to back fill those few worlds still uninhabited. So what happens as soon as the colony ship lands? Migration!

This planet has been ignored by all my citizens for a zillion years, now it's a colony - bam here come Harvestors (OK maybe no big suprise) but here come Darloks by the boatload too and almost immediatly they are the dominant species. And once they are present the migration was 5 to 9 population points per turn.

Anyway I was wondering about fertility and how it affects the desirablity of a planet. Can paradise/sweet spot planet be toxic or a red 2 be lush? How much of a consideration should fertility get when colonising? How does it affect max population?

Thanks

zanzibar

07-10-2003, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by TommyLV
An exception to this would be The Elders, who do everything well.

My colonizing strategy now is to use only the Elders to try to back fill those few worlds still uninhabited. So what happens as soon as the colony ship lands? Migration!

This planet has been ignored by all my citizens for a zillion years, now it's a colony - bam here come Harvestors (OK maybe no big suprise) but here come Darloks by the boatload too and almost immediatly they are the dominant species. And once they are present the migration was 5 to 9 population points per turn.

Anyway I was wondering about fertility and how it affects the desirablity of a planet. Can paradise/sweet spot planet be toxic or a red 2 be lush? How much of a consideration should fertility get when colonising? How does it affect max population?

Thanks

A red 2 is never lush. It's always toxic or hostile!!

Da_Blade

07-10-2003, 03:16 PM

Don't use migration if you don't want more then one race on one planet, the only exception to this is the harvesters. But normally no race will migrate to a world noone of his own race is living.

As for the fertility: check out the economics 101 thread, it's got good info on fertility etc. In any casE: fertility depends on the regional EcoSystem density (the color of the leaf) and the inhabitants' habitability ring. So no, a red2 cannot be lush and a paradise not toxic.

TommyLV

07-10-2003, 05:51 PM

Sorry if I have given the wrong impression but I didn't mark the colony for migration, they did it on their own. I would have used the "Stay the He77 Away From Here" command if I had one.

Most of the planets in this game are up the max population, deep into the red on the population bar, so there a great many people looking for some elbow (or whatever) room. The empty planet holds no appeal, however with just a few population points it's suddenly Disney World - <banjo music> They loaded up the truck and they moved to Beverly . . . Hils that is <end banjo music>.

This has happened twice now, colonize a planet within my borders with the Elders. Immediately auto-migration by two (or more for all I can tell ) species that just a turn ago did not consider that planet an acceptable destination.

I am now saving up a large number of colony ship to dump a huge number of colonists on a planet with the objective of filling all the regions at once.

Da_Blade

07-10-2003, 06:08 PM

A. Won;t work, more colony ships at one time might though, sunno.

B. What the hell do you expect? If you do not provide enough living space for your people, you're amazed they immediately take off to a new world when it comes avaible, especially if it's green for them. And besides, filling up with elders is pretty much useless anyways, since they only have 50% polpulation growth.

I never have multi-racial planets except for those i put on migration to get started faster and the magnates i've settled. And even then, i don't care much either...

nik718

07-10-2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Thrakutter
I consider this to be the most problematic part of the game at this time (post patch).

In my present game, I had to land humans on two magnate planets to get them to join me. Consequently, humans now control 40% of one planet, and 45% of the other. Humans are not suited for these planets, and I want to get them off and allow the magnate race (which is adapted to the planets) to take over. It is turn 350, and I have no evidence that the humans are leaving.

In other instances, I accidentally land an outpost that contain a race other than the one I want on the planet. I discover my mistake several turns later when the outpost becomes a colony. Again, I want the humans to move to greener pastures and leave the planet to those that consider IT to be 'greener pastures'.

Again, I see no evidence of this happening.

I agree with Thrakutter!!

There has to be a way to allow "an emperor" to chose which race will colonize each planet. Even each region of a planet. I am playing moo3 micromanaging everything and I want my empire to give MOST of its racial/planetary/millitary potentials!!

There is nothing wrong with multiracial planets as long both of races are moderate/moderate gravity and have similiar settings. But having Alkari and Darloks on moderateG planet is just plain crazy (happened last game to me on about 50% of my planets!!).