Industry DEA Q

[King's Specter]

I'm into the mid-late game phase and I've acquired more planets than I know what to do with. I've got gobs of minerals and food, and research is going well. With larger hulls in the pipeline and HFoG growing, I could really use some better industry worlds.

Is there any reason not to browse through my planets list and find some big, poor, nominal gravity, heavily populated worlds and load them to the gills with manufacturing? Is there any harm in stripping out everything but a gov dea and whatever moral deas that I need?

Will I have trouble getting Roy to convert them, or is it just a matter of pumping the "normal economic development" slider? If I cranked Industry Industry Industry for "large" and "poor" planets in a dev plan, would Roy switch them for me?

Thanks for all the advice lately!!

[Strifeguard]

Roy will never actually switch DEAs for you. However, by the mid-to-late game there are so many Regional, DEA, and planetary buildings which increase Industrial output that setting "Industry" as primary in a couple of DevPlans does a world of good.

As for all industry (except for possibly a Gov DEA) there are many schools of thought on this.

For example, a fully-upgraded Industry DEA (or near-to) takes at least 6 pop to operate at full-capacity. Since your worlds with 100+ pop are probably size 10 or larger, this translates into potentially 19-23 industry DEAs (2 DEAs per region, 10-12 regions, -1 for gov DEA). This would require 114-138 pop just to run at 100% capacity. Furthermore, additional pop can make a DEA run at up to 180% capacity, but a world would need 228-276 pop to run 19-23 industry DEAs at 180% capacity. This also doesn't take into account the population needed for the Gov DEA (another 6-10). While the Gasbags might be able to pull this off on a handful of paradise gas-giants, for other races it's none-too-likely, and the end result will be waste. That is, for roughly the same population you can have 2 industry DEAs running at 90% capacity or 1 industry DEA running at 160% plus 1 research DEA running at 180%. So, for sheer-industry, yes you can load up a world with nothing but industry, however overall "value" of that world to the empire may not be as great as if you mixed in a few other DEA types.

Note: It was discussed before that a number of mining or bioharvest DEAs would be needed to support the local GDP, this has since been disproved. Sirian also ran a test which showed that, early in the game, A world with 10 industry DEAs produced marginally better than a world with 5 industry DEAs and 5 mining DEAs. This gap widens as the game progresses, but the end result is more-or-less the same.

[Sarnat]

Unfortunately the viceroy won't do this for you. I'd advice to keep some secondary DEAs on a planet like few research DEAs in the mountain regions because they wouldn't have the population to run 2 industry DEAs anyway. Gov and military/recreational DEAs per planet isn't a bad choice for unrest control.

Basically just make sure you got enough cash income on the world to fund your industry. This shouldn't be a problem because industry DEAs create a nice amount of taxes.

[King's Specter]

Originally posted by Strifeguard
For example, a fully-upgraded Industry DEA (or near-to) takes at least 6 pop to operate at full-capacity. .


OK, so I want to plop down one industry for every 10ish people I have in a region. Do people commute to work, or do they always stay in the same region?

What's the best low-population, high revenue DEA to backfill with?

[Strifeguard]

People will commute to work, however, racial bonuses are dependent upon regions. (I'm getting this from a QSI post that's burried at the moment)

Thus, you only really have to worry about total population, *but* if you want a racial bonus to come into play, you should put industry DEAs in the region inhabitated by a race with a racial production bonus.

For low-population, high-revenue, mining is definitely the best way to go. However, Industry DEAs produce loads of cash (provided you can import the necessary minerals) so you might not necessarily need high-revenue DEAs. Research DEAs do not produce any revenue, but also have a low-population requirement, like mining DEAs, and are (obviously) invaluable to your empire.

Also keep in mind that in the mid-to-late game you can make tons of money from Space Ports, so supplementary income DEAs aren't really necessary.

Note: Research and Mining DEAs have a "low" population requirement. Bioharvest, Military, and Recreation have a "Medium" population requirement, Industrial and Government have a "high" population requirement.

[Beamup]

Also keep in mind that just getting as many people as jobs is not what you want. Having more people than jobs makes you MUCH more productive.

[Da_Blade]

Late game there are no real problems with setting a all-industry planet, however it would not be my preference, for reasons of effeciency. I would personally throw in a few research DEAs, these have two positive effects:

1) viceroy always spends some money on research, this way it doesn't go wasted
2) research daes require a nice, low amount of pop to run, this enables you get a nice dea productivity going, which positively affects all dea's on the planets, so higher effeciency on both research and industry.

Besides all that, if you're already late in game it's of no use anymore, the viceroy will never fully build all the DEAs and upgrades. I would just replace a few DEAs with industry and some with research to keep the viceroy busy for a while, leave some mines and bio in place, even though they only provide a little bit of money, every little bit of money is usefull when driving industry...


Oh and btw: i saw somebody up here post you need 2 times the pop for 180% dea productivity? Well, more like 6 times the pop. Double pop will get you 140%.

[Strifeguard]

Originally posted by Da_Blade
Oh and btw: i saw somebody up here post you need 2 times the pop for 180% dea productivity? Well, more like 6 times the pop. Double pop will get you 140%.
That was me, I didn't have time to do an in-depth calculation, so I decided upon a "rough estimate" based upon my home world in my latest game of Moo3. I'm sure this isn't really representative of anything, and the world wasn't straight-industry, so the figure was probably adjusted for the DEAs with lower population requirements.

[Beamup]

Originally posted by Da_Blade
I would personally throw in a few research DEAs, these have two positive effects:

Hey, I thought I was supposed to be the 50/50 ind/res evangelist around here...:haha:

[Da_Blade]

Hey, i already said you convinced me! ;)

But for a grown planet i would very much discourage major DEA replanning, especially if the DEA have been build up nicely i wouldn;t reschedule more then a few DEAs. A complete rebuilding of DEA's+improvements can really take a long while, which can result in much less production then what the rebuild planet returns in the end.

[Poptoad]

This was another thread I didn't want to see die. I remember fondly the days when, at turn 50, I'd manually populate my size 12 world with 23 Industry DEAs and one government DEA!

[Nephyte]

Something to keep in mind when considering Strifeguard's earlier post:


Industry DEA requirements:
(Turns are approximate, as are pop requirements)

@100: 2 pop per Industry DEA
@200: 3 pop per Industry DEA
@300: 4 pop per Industry DEA

This is assuming I'm maintaining fairly average tech levels to your normal player and that you have all tech improvements. Again, this is an assumption of all the saved games I looked at.

Also, unless I am further incorrect in my assumptions by the time you have Industry DEA's running at maximum population requirements your technologies should all be nearly maxed out. Unless of course you are severly rushing your technologies to grab all those Industrial increasing techs.

Further, your small planets should more then effeciently be providing you with the minerals and bioharvest you need, thus leaving you with only a single viable choice for the majority of your DEA's. Industry.

I advocate a 7 population per size class for all Industry worlds personally even if I'm to lazy to follow it at times.



Just some numbers pulled from my game.



# Employed Population Productivity% Overpop%
1 53 118 144% 223%
2 52 83 126% 160%
3 74 86 110% 116%
4 41 110 151% 268%
5 4 37 184% 925%



Employed: The number of populations units required to run each DEA at 100% effeciency.
Population: Current planetary population
Productivity%: The DEA productivity according to the planetary screen.
Overpop%: The amount of over-population (Population compared to Employment) needed to attain that level of DEA productivity%

Planet1: Mixed Industrial/Research
Planet2: Mixed Industrial/Research
Planet3: Pure Industrial
Planet4: Developing Industrial World
Planet5: Developing world.


For the 110%, 126% and 144% DEA Productivity numbers I found several other planets that shared the same DEA Productivity numbers and their Overpop% values held true within an 5% varriance on all examples taken. Lets face it, 5 on 223% isn't that big a variance. Also note the larger variance was on the larger DEA Productivity%.


Anyways, what that shows me, is you need a heckuva lot more then double the population to get 180% production out of a DEA. Maybe someone with a much better mathematical brain then I can figure out exactly what DEA% should be on a planet to make your empire most effecient, but to date, I haven't seen that dropping a couple research DEA's on a planet effects my DEA productivity in enough of a way to start scrapping Industrial DEA's off my major Industry worlds to overdrive them a bit more.


I always think in terms of: Size = Industrial Capacity. Any planet can routinely house research DEA's, but you want to squeeze as much Industry out of a single planet as you can, cause only that one planet matters when you start building a ship their. Every planet in your empire contributes research to the general pool.


So, in my opinion, continue turning those size 8-12 worlds into Industrial Giants!



(((( Disclaimer: I can only use the information presented to me in game to make my conclusions. I don't have Strifeguards computer based talents nor Excel to view spreadsheets in (like I'd understand them) like he does. He could very well know what I don't. So blame the crappy game information feedback, not me for any misleading this post may do :p ))))

[tardis]

I think overdriving is never "optimal". Money is best spent when all DEAs are (not) overdriven to the same extend, but this again is not the best combination to earn money. And it may not be the optimal way to build an army.

Things I also don't understand are
- the overpopulation Nephyte mentions above. Planetary rates of employment and unemployment don't add up to 100%.
- DEA efficiency. Is this influenced by like gov DEAs, pollution, etc ? Is is a mean number for all DEAs on the planet ?

An example:
Planet size 11, sweet spot, optimal gravity
Population: 183/201
DEAs : 21 factory, 1 government (adds +67% production)
DEA efficiency: 141% WUT :noob: .

Reported DEA capacity is 21*511 = 12k
Reported production output = 45k
==> calculated overdrive is 3.75
==> calculated cost factor is 1 + 2 + 3 + 4*0.75 = 9.
So this 45k production will cost me 9*12=108k gold at least, but can this amount be found somewhere ? The planetary expensed are 250k.

[Poptoad]

Tardis, I don't know the answer to your questions.

However, here is a cool thread that talks about how over-population affects DEA efficiency:

DEA Productivity (http://www.ina-community.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=305157)

[tardis]

I'm happy to see this matter puzzles more than just me :).

Originally posted by Poptoad
Tardis, I don't know the answer to your questions.

However, here is a cool thread that talks about how over-population affects DEA efficiency:

DEA Productivity (http://www.ina-community.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=305157)

[Strifeguard]

Originally posted by tardis
Things I also don't understand are
- the overpopulation Nephyte mentions above. Planetary rates of employment and unemployment don't add up to 100%.
If you've downloaded the patch you can right-click on the numbers and it will explain why this is.

The employment rate is the % of population being used to get all DEAs up to 100% capacity. The unemployment rate is the % of population that isn't contributing to producing anything at all. The population which is listed as neither "employed" nor "unemployed" is pushing DEA production up above 100%, what players usually refer to as "overdriving due to population".

Originally posted by tardis
- DEA efficiency. Is this influenced by like gov DEAs, pollution, etc ? Is it a mean number for all DEAs on the planet?
I don't know what you mean by "efficiency". Gov DEAs will increase DEA productivity by the % indicated on the infrastructure panel (which is modified by improvements made to the government DEA, as well as population assigned to work at the government DEA). Pollution is taken care of as a straight-up cost. You are forced to pay a certain amount of AUs every turn to take care of pollution, aside from this loss of AUs, there's no real effect on productivity.

DEAs all have a base productivity level, given by terrain, fertility/mineral richness, available population, etc. which I suppose you could refer to as "efficiency" however this number will never go below the base-level. (whatever a given DEA will produce in a given region with the available population, taking racial bonuses/weaknesses into account) It will usually rise above the base level, depending on many factors (government DEAs on planet, the availability of FLUs, free population, etc.) but it will never become "inefficient".[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by tardis
An example:
Planet size 11, sweet spot, optimal gravity
Population: 183/201
DEAs : 21 factory, 1 government (adds +67% production)
DEA efficiency: 141% WUT :noob: .

Reported DEA capacity is 21*511 = 12k
Reported production output = 45k
==> calculated overdrive is 3.75
==> calculated cost factor is 1 + 2 + 3 + 4*0.75 = 9.
So this 45k production will cost me 9*12=108k gold at least, but can this amount be found somewhere ? The planetary expensed are 250k.
What do you mean "can this be found somewhere?" if you set the slider panel to display in AUs instead of %s, then it should state it outright.

As for planetary expenses, if you have 22 DEAs, all of them heavily upgraded (as they must be if they're averaging 511 industry points each, not to mention a 67% production increase for the government DEA, indicating a heavily upgraded government DEA) then you're probably paying bucketloads of maintenance every turn. If you're collecting more than enough AUs to pay off the maintenance and still prduce at an overdriven level, then you're doing well, and it's a healthy planet.

[LiquidSilicoid]

I have a really cool post with some secrets and tons of questions for everybody, but for some reason i cannot start a new thread. In fact, i am doing this now to test wheter i can post at all.

So far the atari admins have proven useless.
The moderators have no email addresses.

\what should i do?

[Snike]

Firstly, I'am sorry for any errors in english grammar, because I'am not english-speaking man (I'am Ukrainian), and don't know english vell yet :(

I would like to ask question about industry and minerals production. I'am playing with modified silicoid (mining: good, production: average) and would like to know your opinions about industry/mining DEAs ratio for poor/abudant/rich/very rich planets? It's needed, that each of this planet can supply yourself, so how much must be mining and industry DEAs (let's take a fully upgraded both of them) per planet, to support hunger of silicoid population, industries and also generates some extra minerals?

I'am understand, that it's unable to answer exactly on this question, because of many factors (on wich terrain mine is built, wich race populating this region and so on), but I think, you should already have some expirience in this matter :)

[DeckPrism]

I manualy place mines in the mountains of rich and very rich planets. I also try to get about 50% of the non-mine, non-farm, non-gov DEAs set to industry. I may manualy remove mines on poor or very poor worlds. On a size 6 or bigger planet with decent industry, make sure you also have 1 gov DEA. Other than that, Dev plans work for me.

[Mysteria]

Originally posted by Sarnat
I'd advice to keep some secondary DEAs on a planet like few research DEAs in the mountain regions because they wouldn't have the population to run 2 industry DEAs anyway.
So far, I've played tachidi, evon, and nommo. In each case, the max population of the mountain regions was higher than the max population of the broken regions, which was higher than the max population of the plains regions. When industrializing a world, I will always put two industry DEAs in mountain regions, an industry and government/military/recreation DEA in broken, and an industry and research DEA in plains regions. I typically keep four research, one government, one military OR recreation, and the rest industry for my powerhouses.

[Tower]

I have always found (anecdotally) that placing at least 1 mining and 1 farming DEA on every planet resulted in a most productive galaxy with the fewest weaknesses.

The advantage a government DEA provides is also quite obvious and not to be overlooked. On larger planets I have found 2 government DEAs do a better job than 1 extra industry DEA. Somewhere around 8+ industry DEAs, the planet works better if there are 2 government DEAs. Here's why: It might be simply math. e.g. if Gov DEA improves efficiency 10% then skimming 10 Industry DEAs with 1 government DEA is the equivalent of one additional Industry DEA. But if the Gov DEA is 15% efficicient then skimming only 7 Industry DEAs gives 105% industry improvement, etc.

The order and timing of DEA placement seems to be a factor also. For example, place a government DEA before mining and industry and you will wait a very long time for the other DEAs to grow. I also found that placing too many DEAs at once has the same effect.

Yes, the empire gets more out of some planets than others, but the planet's specific DEA "efficiency" doesn't seem to be the major factor in good empire. I think its the "surplus" situation created by all DEAs on a planet that determines that planet's growth. i.e. planets that must "buy" resources do not seem to be as efficient overall as those that have a surplus. i.e. if a planet over specializes then even though the empire gets more of something, that particular planet slows down.

The order of DEA placement that works best for me almost regardless of which turn the game is on is...
- 1 Mining and 1 Industry together at start (the game will select the order it needs)
- 1 Farming (1 only)
- 1 Government and 1 Research
- More mining (in early game)
- More Industry and/or More Research
- 2nd Government (determined by Gov DEA efficiency and number of Industry DEAs)
- Military or Recreation (as needed)
- More Research (in late game, replace less useful DEAs or overabundant Mining DEAs)

Terrain type has an effect on DEA efficiency. But since this is predetermined, its easy to figure out where to place each type of DEA.

What about race type occupying a specific region? or Growth rate? Should these factors influence DEA placement? I think yes.

And what about staving off Ithkul infestation by first populating regions that are unoccupied by a race?

[Snike]

Ok, thnx to all for your advices :) Now I'am understand, that industry/mining DEAs ratio need to correct during the game (I've done some own experiments too)... Now my Silicoids techs near lv27 and in average (for all planets) 2 mining DEAs, located in mountains with silicoid population, can fully support 4-5 industry.