The BEST orbital design

[Minor Annoyance]

What is the best orbital design? I don't mean in the entire game, but for a given tech level, in what ratio should you use different types of weapons?

[Beamup]

Generally there's little point to anything but PD, missiles, and fighters. The particular balance among these is a matter of personal preference.

Although it can sometimes be funny to build a Leviathan-class orbital packed with Colony Bays...

[diashi]

Usually 10 of the best superiority fighter you can fit, 10 of the best missile you can fit, with about 10 reloads, and then fill the rest with LFGs. Nothing gets through once you have three of these beasts orbiting a planet.

[Nolondil]

The best way to make orbitals 'complement' planetary bases is with PD. Planets are very vulnerable to swarms of missiles and/or fighters, so they need help. And the LFG may not be the best choice for PD Orbitals, btw. It's very short ranged and the whole point of the orbital is to protect the planet which might be between it and the attackers. So longer ranged weapons like Hard Beams or IPCs are more effective. Phasers are very long ranged but not as compact as either HB or IPC so you get fewer shots. I guess it's a matter for experimentation to see whether the opportunity for more shots at longer range makes up for the total count of weapons being less.

Missiles and fighters are also helpful but only after the planet is well protected from enemy missiles and fighters.

[Hikari]

I would generally agree with using primarily missiles/fighters and beams only for point defense. However, diashi's just insane, never put 10 reloads of your best missiles on... well, anything.

Less is more. Now that PD works halfway reliably, you need larger concentrations of fire to make sure they get through. Splitting up your missile payload over that many reloads just means you're going to watch each and every launch get eaten by enemy PD.

Besides, if you've got Heavy Missiles then a 10 minute battle won't even last long enough for you to fire 10 reloads. If you happen to have lowered the battle time to a more reasonable number (I use 5 minutes so that stalemates don't take forever and a day), you have time to fire even fewer volleys.

I actually have one related question, though. At early/mid tech levels, is there any real reason to armor/shield your orbitals? Until deflection gets high enough to repel fighters, it doesn't really seem to matter how well-armored they are; because they're the only unit in their "task force," all attacks directed at them (ie, every missile in a salvo) will hit them, and thus no amount of armor/shields really seems to keep them from getting pulverized in an instant. Has anyone had any experiences where the defenses of their orbitals actually mattered prior to getting Ultra Heavy Armor and Damper Fields?

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Hikari
Has anyone had any experiences where the defenses of their orbitals actually mattered prior to getting Ultra Heavy Armor and Damper Fields? [/B]

Yes.

Don't forget, its possible for them to shot down incoming missiles, and even fighter swarms. And once the first incomings are gone, the enemy TFs lose lock. I know that the armor / shields have prolonged more than one enemy orbitals lifespan long enough to cause this, and force me to move my TFs close in enough to get swatted by its mates. Its has an effect, though minimal.

[Norfleet]

I treat orbitals as "That Thing Which Is Doomed Anyway", and give it an ultraspinal disintegrator for scan range, stick some LFGs on it, and then fill the rest of the space with one-shot missile launchers so that they'll actually be able to wipe out an enemy armada.

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Norfleet
I treat orbitals as "That Thing Which Is Doomed Anyway", and give it an ultraspinal disintegrator for scan range, stick some LFGs on it, and then fill the rest of the space with one-shot missile launchers so that they'll actually be able to wipe out an enemy armada.

The problem with that is that if the enemy has more TFs than you have armadas, you're SOL.

[Norfleet]

One of two conditions will apply:

A. Your orbitals and planet are being defended by a fleet, and as such, orbitals are superfluous: Your enemy is going to run in about 15 seconds after sighting your fleet, if he isn't already warping out, and all you have are 15 seconds anyway, barely enough time to dump your missile racks and pray like hell they hit him before he can warp out.
B. Your oribltals and planet are being assaulted by an actual enemy force. You're SOL already, period. Now it's about how much damage you can do to them before you bite it, because you're already dead. Hit "watch" so you can exploit the targetting cheat, cross your fingers, put your head between your legs, and kiss your ass goodbye.

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Norfleet
B. Your oribltals and planet are being assaulted by an actual enemy force. You're SOL already, period. Now it's about how much damage you can do to them before you bite it, because you're already dead. Hit "watch" so you can exploit the targetting cheat, cross your fingers, put your head between your legs, and kiss your ass goodbye.

I've had planets defended by system ships, orbitals, and bases survive an assault. Its not as easy as it could be if all system ships were allowed in combat, but its *not* as unlikely as you make it sound.

[cousLee]

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
I've had planets defended by system ships, orbitals, and bases survive an assault. Its not as easy as it could be if all system ships were allowed in combat, but its *not* as unlikely as you make it sound.

What do you mean by "if all system ships were allowed"? What system ships are excluded from combat?

[Kralizec!]

cousLee wrote:
What do you mean by "if all system ships were allowed"? What system ships are excluded from combat?

While I do not know what the spreadsheets say, in my experience it looks like the combat engine only allows you to use one TF of system ships in a battle. So even if you have 40 system ships, it will only allow 18 or so in combat.

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by cousLee
What do you mean by "if all system ships were allowed"? What system ships are excluded from combat?

Anything over 18 ships are ecluded.

[Babylon4]

B. Your oribltals and planet are being assaulted by an actual enemy force. You're SOL already, period. Now it's about how much damage you can do to them before you bite it, because you're already dead. Hit "watch" so you can exploit the targetting cheat, cross your fingers, put your head between your legs, and kiss your ass goodbye.

If you can make a significant dent in the enemy fleet they may not have enough to take on any other planets in the system and you have cut your losses even though one planet is now defenceless/glassed. I recently had combat where 1/2 the enemy were wiped out by my losing orbitals and planet defences. I then got a strong fleet in before his reinforcements showed up and drove the rest off. Orbitals work!

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
I've had planets defended by system ships, orbitals, and bases survive an assault. Its not as easy as it could be if all system ships were allowed in combat, but its *not* as unlikely as you make it sound.
That doesn't really count an assault, then. Not even 15 orbitals and a full planet will fend off your typical assault that I've seen, which typically involves several thousand ships dogpiling into the system and attacking it in 180-ship waves, the AI being too stupid to realize that this is utterly pointless. Your idea of an assault clearly differs from mine: If you can actually defeat it with just planetary defenses, that was a probe, not an assault. The real thing is going to show up shortly.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Babylon4
If you can make a significant dent in the enemy fleet they may not have enough to take on any other planets in the system and you have cut your losses even though one planet is now defenceless/glassed. I recently had combat where 1/2 the enemy were wiped out by my losing orbitals and planet defences. I then got a strong fleet in before his reinforcements showed up and drove the rest off. Orbitals work!
That's sort of the idea behind the massive missile orbitals, yeah. Exactly as I pointed out, your planet, and resulting orbitals are screwed, so your objective is to deal out as much pain and suffering as you can before you inevitably bite it, like I said. The actual planet and orbitals are SOL: It's just how many of them you can take with you.

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Norfleet
That doesn't really count an assault, then. Not even 15 orbitals and a full planet will fend off your typical assault that I've seen, which typically involves several thousand ships dogpiling into the system and attacking it in 180-ship waves, the AI being too stupid to realize that this is utterly pointless. Your idea of an assault clearly differs from mine: If you can actually defeat it with just planetary defenses, that was a probe, not an assault. The real thing is going to show up shortly.

If it contains 180 ships, its an assualt.

But of *COURSE* the planet isn't going to survive in the scenario you described - that would be very unbalanced. But any major attack *is* an assault, believe it or not. It might not be a successfull one, but a "probe" would be only two or three TFs; anything more is an attack. Once is hits seven and above, its an assault.

[JTBM]

In early - mid game I equip my orbitals with PD, ECM/ECCM/Cloaking device + 1 interceptor fighter and 1 space control fighter.
They help me to spot the enemy far away and the planetary defenses can open up fire.
They provide PD fire agains incoming fighters/missiles.
The fighters might be targeted by an incoming missile volley and the whole volley is wasted on it.

In late game I put beams on them as well, so they provide fire if the enemy uses beam ships instead of carriers/missiles.
PD is getting very strong in late game.

Reinforced border planets always have a Mobilisation Center - so if I see a major assault coming I deploy TFs from the reserves to defend the planet.

[AlanC9]

For me, the best orbital design is none at all. Fight in your opponent's systems instead. The CV/IF blind launching at a planet makes planetary defenses counterproductive. Do it to them before they do it to you.

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by AlanC9
For me, the best orbital design is none at all. Fight in your opponent's systems instead. The CV/IF blind launching at a planet makes planetary defenses counterproductive. Do it to them before they do it to you.

ahhh a Battle School grad I see. ;)

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Rokenn
ahhh a Battle School grad I see. ;)

Yeah. I'd say so. Still, he overlooked a few things - like the fact that that left them totally defenseless, and was (in many ways) a "Do-or-die" tactic. *Not* what I'd choose.

:mad:60:mad:second:mad:limit:mad:

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
But any major attack *is* an assault, believe it or not. It might not be a successfull one.
Must not be much of a major assault if a bunch of piddling planetary defenses can even contemplate fighting it off, rather than simply maximizing the amount of damage inflicted before biting it. Let's face it, when you see an attack that your planetary defenses are capable of fighting off unassisted, you're thinking "And this is supposed to be an attack?"

The closest I've had to such a battle was an effective draw: Although the enemy "won", this was only because he had fighters circling the battlefield after all of the combatants had gotten blown to bits: Orbitals, ships, planetary bases, all toasted. The only thing that had survived of the enemy line of battle was a pair of colony ships and a pack of fighters. For this, I give thanks to the "massive wodges of missiles" orbital design.

One thing that I *HAVE* found works really well, however, is NOT to conquer the last enemy colony in a system: Leave some minor, pathetic pop-2 world lying around, then repeatedly attack it without bombing. This will force the battle to occur at THEIR planet, instead of at yours, making it into an open space battle, rather than the "your ships are clumped an idiotic ring and can't possibly disentangle themselves before the wodge of missiles kills them" battle.

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Norfleet
Must not be much of a major assault if a bunch of piddling planetary defenses can even contemplate fighting it off, rather than simply maximizing the amount of damage inflicted before biting it.

They did maximize the amount of damage before biting it - IIRC, at least three or four major assualts have succeded in destroying all but one orbital - and that by a very small margin.

[Norfleet]

In truth, though, I basically never build orbitals until Leviathans, because trying to upgrade your orbitals is a real pain in the ass that requires that you manually hunt down every last orbital and scrap them all. They need a better orbital management panel for designating all of an orbital for scrapping.

Besides, I hate planet fighting anyway. I prefer to setup forward defense in the Neutered Zone instead. Having no contact as a result also tends to discourage the AI from trying to push very hard.

[viciouscycle]

The best orbital designs are definitely those packed with missles, fighters, and PD. Oh, and one spinal mount DF weapon too. Orbitals are not meant to repel assaults on their own. You need to have some system ships and, more preferably, a bunch of starships for serious system defense.

I used to make all different kinds of systems ships but now I only make two kinds. The first kind is a missile frigate with one spinal mount DF and a system speed of one that any new planet can build to fight piracy. The second kind is the largest hull available with one spinal mount DF, system speed of one, and then tons of missles and fighters, and some PD. The orbitals and system ships should, IMHO, be there to provide support for your defense fleet.

[Norfleet]

Orbitals are there to provide wodges of missiles to, theoretically, support your defending fleet, or to inflict as many casualties as possible before they die.

System ships are there to prevent piracy. In combat, they're actually a hindrance, since they take up a TF that could be taken by a defender. With the exception of piracy, system ships are more or less useless: You can't possibly build them in large enough quantities at a new system to serve as a defense, and you can only use 18 anyway. More than 18 system ships, even if you did manage to build them all, is useless because 18 is the maximum number of system ships that will fight.

I personally play with the no piracy mod, just so I don't have to go through the bother of counting all of the planetary regions, and then doling out empty system ships. Personally, I'm at a loss to understand what useful purpose piracy is supposed to serve in the game: Just the maintenance cost? Empty hulls have little or no maintenance cost, and maintenance costs are negligible anyway. Why not just abstract the entire mess into a maintenance fee on the planet? Why create this micromanagement monstrocity?

[AlanC9]

Originally posted by Norfleet
System ships are there to prevent piracy. In combat, they're actually a hindrance, since they take up a TF that could be taken by a defender.

They do? Yikes! All this time, I've just avoided building them becuse I'm too lazy to manage them. Didn't know they were actually counterproductive.



I personally play with the no piracy mod, just so I don't have to go through the bother of counting all of the planetary regions, and then doling out empty system ships. Personally, I'm at a loss to understand what useful purpose piracy is supposed to serve in the game: Just the maintenance cost? Empty hulls have little or no maintenance cost, and maintenance costs are negligible anyway. Why not just abstract the entire mess into a maintenance fee on the planet? Why create this micromanagement monstrocity?

Good point. There are several design elements that make me think that managing fleet maintenance was originally going to be quite important. Yet another nerfed element, no doubt. And letting an empty hull help with piracy is an outright design failure.

But counting regions and assigning ships really isn't worth the effort. I just wait till I see unrest warnings and then deploy some trash from my reserves.

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by AlanC9
They do? Yikes! All this time, I've just avoided building them becuse I'm too lazy to manage them. Didn't know they were actually counterproductive.

I find them *quite* productive.

Originally posted by Norfleet
Why create this micromanagement monstrocity?

Because not everyone uses the empty hull cheat. I, personally, tend to build fairly large fleets of system ships for system defense. While only 18 can have an effect on a given battle, they can often tip the scales my way.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
Because not everyone uses the empty hull cheat. I, personally, tend to build fairly large fleets of system ships for system defense. While only 18 can have an effect on a given battle, they can often tip the scales my way.
Would it feel better if you installed a single laser on the ship? Then it's "armed"....okay, not really, but it's armed, right? Besides, real police cars aren't armed either, but the police use them anyway.

System ships aren't nearly cheap enough to serve as an effective defense: While it's easy enough for a core world to build them, it's still completely out of reach for a borderworld to do the same: Ever try to assemble a Behemoth or Leviathan at a newly colonized border world under attack? It just doesn't work. Since system ships MUST be built at the point where they're being defended, rather than, oh, say, being shipped there in modular parts, and merely assembled there at far lower cost than actually building them, they're simply not a viable defense. Furthermore, you can't actually order them to stay OUT of the fighting until you have built up enough of them. System ships aren't even really CHEAPER than their starship counterparts. A Behemoth starship missile cruiser, in my current game, has a listed cost of about 19K AU. The equivalent system ship mode has a listed cost of about 24K AU. Supposing that this is pre-system-ship cost reduction, and off the top of my head, what was the system ship cost reduction, anyway? 2/3? That's not a lot of cost reduction here. And some new planet is supposed to build this monster? Sure, I suppose you could build them at a core world, and use it to defend....the interior of your empire. I can count the number of times that has actually happened with the fingers of no hands. Besides, for the effort of building that system ship, I could simply build a stockpile of starships, which, unlike system ships, can be deployed to any location in my empire, including undeveloped border worlds that really NEED to be defended, can be deployed and used in the exact numbers and proportions that I want them to be, and, most importantly, can be deployed into systems that I entirely lack a colony in, such as the Neutered Zone.

You're probably going to suggest building smaller hull sizes of system ships.:weird:
That's an absolutely idiotic idea, since smaller hull sizes simply aren't effective in the line of battle, and doing this with system ships simultaneously negates the enlarged capacity advantage of the system ships, AND locks a starship TF out of battle. Bad idea.

So, the things in favor of the use of system warships:
1. More hull space for weaponry due to both upscaling and lack of warpdrive.
2. *MAYBE* cheaper, if the cost I'm seeing during designing is being modified someplace other than the build screen, but partially or completely offset by increased expense of extra weapons.

The things NOT favoring the use of system warships:
1. Maximum of 18 in any given battle, which guarantees need for starship support anyway.
2. Takes up a TF slot that could have been occupied by a starship TF.
3. Cannot organize them into any effective TFs: Must micromanage their deployment in a system as a result of limitations above, or use one-size-fits-all designing.
4. Cannot leave system they are built in: Guaranteed to wind up fighting in orbit of your own planet as result. Did I mention how much fun "Missile Command" is?

As a result, in early games, I built system ships only for anti-piracy. This quickly became greatly aggravating: Having to scrap them so they wouldn't block the defenders out of combats, having to do planet size tallies of every system, and then build the ships....but at least I never had to redesign them, because an empty hull doesn't go out of style. I helpfully named the ship design "Police Ship".

Who the heck are these pirates, anyway? Where do they come from? And why do they cause unrest, as opposed to simply a loss of trade income? I've never heard of a country rioting on account of piracy problems with shipping. Mostly, merchants just start arming their ships, and/or hiring escorts.

Oh, yeah, and the abovementioned "massive missile orbital" idea does sort of crack down on piracy just as effectively, actually can potentially contribute to, rather than hinder, a planetary defense effort. Unfortunately, just as with system ships, it's also just as much a micromanagement nightmare that requires you to periodically visit each and every planet to scrap all of the obsolete orbitals and then requeue new larger ones. Arrgh. Couldn't we have a "scrap all of this ship design" button anywhere?

[Ron_Lugge]

Sure, I suppose you could build them at a core world, and use it to defend....the interior of your empire. I can count the number of times that has actually happened with the fingers of no hands.

Thats you. On the other hand, I actually have peace treaties that last for more than ten turns - this causes a *much* different perspective. Defending the nodal planet that leads to my best ally might seem silly, but its probably why said ally doesn't cause me any trouble.

[Huszics]

Have to agree that he devs definitly dropped the ball on the systemships and orbitals.
Both system ships and orbitals are mostly useless.

Re: Systemships
It's immensly more costeffective to just build a mobilization point in every system then even a single system ship, since that will allow you to put in 10 Armadas of your state of the art spaceships in 1 turn when & where you need it (and not 100 turns before).
Also, by the time they are needed the SysShips will of cource be hopelessly outdated anyway.


Re: Orbitals
Personally I only have these 189PP frigate-class weaponless orbitals just too keep away the pirates.

If a refit option gets added to the game I however think that Orbs could actually be quite usefull (even though there is a high chance it might never come to use).
Another option to make them usefull (while keeping mikromanagment low) would be if the weapons on them was actually like the planet weapons (ie always best latest DF/Miss/Fighter tech ). That would be a real improvment.

In short, orbitals suck, but could easily be fixed (by making them "small planets") but Sysships needs to be remade from scratch. I could possibly envision SysShips being created from old Starships by ripping out the warpdrive, refitting them and then place them in optional system (with a mob point?) Sort of recycleing the old hull when it's hopelessly outdated.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
Defending the nodal planet that leads to my best ally might seem silly, but its probably why said ally doesn't cause me any trouble.
I've tried this, but it doesn't seem to help. They still wind up declaring war on you for some reason, and you wind up having to annex them. Oh, well. At least it saves me all the extra clicking since the fleet is already deployed. Make ready to invade!

[rhyssan]

Originally posted by Norfleet

So, the things in favor of the use of system warships:
1. More hull space for weaponry due to both upscaling and lack of warpdrive.
2. *MAYBE* cheaper, if the cost I'm seeing during designing is being modified someplace other than the build screen, but partially or completely offset by increased expense of extra weapons.
2) that's the case. the cost reduction is only for the hull. (a SystCost multiplier only affects the base item being modified, and the hull is what's being modified by a hull-option) the extra space you pack the weapons in negates that fairly quickly for decent weapons, since the weapons themselves aren't any cheaper just because the hull is different.

i've thought about this before - maybe they should be. bc you could just build the orbital a big bigger and not have to use such exacting specs as far as base mounting and stuff. but then you'd really have 2 versions of each weapon/mount, one for orbitals where things aren't as space critical (materials can be cheaper because you can just use more of them to get the strength you need for mounting pieces), and the other for starships where space is critical and you want to use the best materials possible to eke out a bit more space for the people who have to be on board to squeeze by for maintenance :). however, all that really could be represented by leaving all the costs and space the same. so i've thought about making orbital hulls really cheap (and i do think a 40% savings is too little), but haven't done it...

Arrgh. Couldn't we have a "scrap all of this ship design" button anywhere?
there is such a button. it's on the fleet screen. but it's not always there - you have to have something valid selected ('reserves' will do - ?probably? a group of system ships will too. but not an active TF.). anyway, when you have the right thing selected, there are a number of scrap options across the bottom right of the screen - 6 buttons in 2 rows of 3, but some of them are cancels. the 'scrap design' not only deletes the design, but scraps all ships of that design. (problem is, to use that button just to delete a *design*, you have to have a ship built)

-rhyssan

[Skymage]

Quote from Norfleet
You're probably going to suggest building smaller hull sizes of system ships.
That's an absolutely idiotic idea, since smaller hull sizes simply aren't effective in the line of battle, and doing this with system ships simultaneously negates the enlarged capacity advantage of the system ships, AND locks a starship TF out of battle. Bad idea.


I believe you are wrong on this one. I believe that the System ship TF is In Addition to your regular TFs

SkyMage

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Skymage
I believe you are wrong on this one. I believe that the System ship TF is In Addition to your regular TFs

SkyMage

Actually, I believe the system ship TF is replacing a regular TF.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by rhyssan
however, all that really could be represented by leaving all the costs and space the same. so i've thought about making orbital hulls really cheap (and i do think a 40% savings is too little), but haven't done it...


there is such a button. it's on the fleet screen. but it's not always there - you have to have something valid selected ('reserves' will do - ?probably? a group of system ships will too. but not an active TF.). anyway, when you have the right thing selected, there are a number of scrap options across the bottom right of the screen - 6 buttons in 2 rows of 3, but some of them are cancels. the 'scrap design' not only deletes the design, but scraps all ships of that design. (problem is, to use that button just to delete a *design*, you have to have a ship built)

-rhyssan
Eh. Empty hulls already cost less than dirt. Who cares about that?

And no, there is not such a button that applies to orbitals, which is the real crux of the problem. Crapping obsolete reserves and ship classes is simple. Now try scrapping all of a type of orbital.

[rhyssan]

Originally posted by Norfleet
Eh. Empty hulls already cost less than dirt. Who cares about that?
no one. but i believe you were one of the "stuff it full of weapons" crowd.

And no, there is not such a button that applies to orbitals, which is the real crux of the problem. Crapping obsolete reserves and ship classes is simple. Now try scrapping all of a type of orbital.
ah - sorry. i've never built/had an orbital. i didn't realize they didn't show as ships in a system fleet on the fleet screen.

-rhyssan

[Skymage]

Actually, I believe the system ship TF is replacing a regular TF.


**Runs off and checks**

Dang.....I hate it when I'm wrong ;)

Oh well, thanks for correcting me.

------------------
Now back on topic:
The only reasons for orbitals are 1> supporting and defending the planetary defences (not very good) or 2> assisting the defending fleets (This I like). I usually build the biggest orbitals with as many fighters/Missiles (CV/IF) as possible, hoping to overload the enemies PD.

SkyMage