neutron star and black hole

[Global Danger]

what happens when you go into a neutron star or black hole?

I tried a colony ship at a black hole, but the dam thing keeps on floating in space - next to a black hole????

this seems to be against all fysics laws???

please help, I'm still new to the game.:( :cry:

[Beamup]

You realize that you wasted a lot of turns offroading there. Nothing else happens, there is no reason to ever visit black holes or neutron stars.

[SnowFox5]

They are there for you to say "oooo that looks cool" and thats about it.

[Ranma Saotome]

I tried a colony ship at a black hole, but the dam thing keeps on floating in space - next to a black hole????
Well, you didn't think that the pilots you hired for your colony ships were stupid enough to actually fly right into the black hole, did you?

[RobNelson]

LOL, why not, the pilot was dumb enough to go there in the first place. :D

[Kralizec!]

RobNelson wrote:
LOL, why not, the pilot was dumb enough to go there in the first place.

<Oliver North voice>
*shrugs*
"Sorry, senator. I was just following orders."
</voice>

[RobNelson]

LOL. :D

That pilot is now a major contributor to GNN's upstart rival news channel. :p

[Global Danger]

when you are next to a black hole, an unlimited amount of energy is needed.

[Kralizec!]

RobNelson wrote:
That pilot is now a major contributor to GNN's upstart rival news channel.

Gnolam News ... ? :haha:

[Beamup]

Originally posted by Global Danger
when you are next to a black hole, an unlimited amount of energy is needed.

Nope, it's quite easy to have a stable orbit around a black hole with a finite amount of energy. You're thinking of once you've crossed the event horizon.

[Kralizec!]

Beamup wrote:
Nope, it's quite easy to have a stable orbit around a black hole with a finite amount of energy. You're thinking of once you've crossed the event horizon.

If you are a Star Trek fan, some of the novels have had multiple event horizons in black holes. The first is where the gravitational pull is so great that even the speed of light (3 x 10^8 m/s) is not fast enough to escape. The next event horizon is where the gravitational pull is so massive that even warp speed is not enough to escape.

[Ranma Saotome]

when you are next to a black hole, an unlimited amount of energy is needed.
Yes, if a ship were to stray too close to the black hole it would be in a bit of trouble. But captain and crew would have to be pretty incompitant for this to happen. I am glad QSI has been able to ignore the dolts who keep screaming for the game to assign random dammage or distruction to any ship flying "near" a black hole. Bottom line: Black holes are not any more difficult to navigate around than a normal lump of matter of the same mass.

[Ericus1]

lol Just a little irony with what you said there. If you had an equal mass of a 'normal lump of matter' as the black hole floating in space, what will happen? It will collapse into the same black hole, unless there is some form of energy pushing outwards against it (i.e. fusion). Black holes are normal matter, just compressed a hole lot. :)

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Ericus1
lol Just a little irony with what you said there. If you had an equal mass of a 'normal lump of matter' as the black hole floating in space, what will happen? It will collapse into the same black hole, unless there is some form of energy pushing outwards against it (i.e. fusion). Black holes are normal matter, just compressed a hole lot. :)

Wrong!

The earth, if it could be compressed into an area of space about the size of a thimble, would form a black hole. Its not mass alone that determines a black hole; its volume that the mass takes up. IIRC, nuetron stars have as much or more mass that a black hole, yet aren't...

[RobNelson]

Goes back to the trick question of what would happen to the Earth's orbit if the sun collapsed into a black hole (without going supernova, etc). The answer is nothing. The event horizon would be inside the current sun's radius (though I haven't done any of the math to tell where inside the sun it would be).

A black hole could even have a very small mass (compared to a sun, at any rate). One of the speculations on the Siberian Catastrophe in 1905(?) is that a micro black hole collided with the Earth (it's a theory, but not a largely accepted one - a comet collision is the most widely accepted theory).

[Beamup]

To be precise, a chunk of matter will form a black hole if its radius is less than the Schwarzschild radius. Said radius is given by

R_s = 2GM/c^2

where G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass, and c is the speed of light.

Interesting fact: black holes are fundamentally involved with general relativity. However, if you calculate the analog to R_s (set the escape velocity to c) using Newtonian gravity, you get the correct answer except you don't get the 2. This is because there's only one way to combine G, M, and c to make a distance, and those are the only quantities that should matter.

[Global Danger]

With a chance of making myself ridiculous...

massa equals energy by means of Einsteins equation. Light (=energy = mass) can not escape the black hole due to the super amount of gravitational forces excerted by a black hole.

Being able to float with a starship around a black hole ???

nice discussion though;)

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by Global Danger
With a chance of making myself ridiculous...

massa equals energy by means of Einsteins equation. Light (=energy = mass) can not escape the black hole due to the super amount of gravitational forces excerted by a black hole.

Being able to float with a starship around a black hole ???

nice discussion though;)

Straighten out your physics. Don't forget; gravity is inversly proportional to the square of the distance between the two objects.

[Ericus1]

lol I try just to make a joke without getting all long winded, and everyone has to get all technical. Okay, I guess I should have put more of the physics there. :)

Micro black holes cannot form naturally. You would need an outside force acting to actively compress the mass past R_s to form the black hole, as without enough mass the repulsive force of the electron clouds around atoms alone would be enough to prevent sufficient compression. That is why the earth hasn't spontaneously become a micro black hole, or the sun, or Jupiter, etc. Hawking's theories are that all or nearly all micro black holes were formed during the Big Bang.

As I'm sure most of you know, most stars end their lives three different ways, depending on the original mass of the star. White dwarf, neutron star, or black hole, in order of increasing mass.

My point was that if you had a normal black hole, it must have had enough mass to spontaneously compress, and thus any given mass of the same amount, lacking any other force working to push out, will naturally collapse into a black hole too.

Yes, whether or not a black hole will form depends on M and V, but whether one will form naturally or not depends solely on M, as barring any other force it will naturally compress to the required V.

To explain Global's question about orbiting, sufficient speed to orbit a sufficient mass is enough regardless of what form that mass is in, whether star, planet, or black hole, as long as the orbit is outside of the event horizon, as once it has passed the event horizon the necessary orbital speed would be faster than the speed of light (thus the whole two event horizons for Star Trek thing).

A starship that was completely motionless next to a black hole will fall into it (of course whether anything is ever completely motionless is a funny question when dealing with relativity), so in a sense you are correct. Think of it as sliding down the curvature of space. But a starship that is in orbit will orbit it forever, as now it is rolling around the funnel of the black hole in a frictionless circle. I'm not getting into rotational physics and velocity, rotational momentum, etc. but that's the basics.

[Ranma Saotome]

Micro black holes cannot form naturally. You would need an outside force acting to actively compress the mass past R_s to form the black hole, as without enough mass the repulsive force of the electron clouds around atoms alone would be enough to prevent sufficient compression.
Indeed. In fact, a micro black hole would quickly evaporate due to Hawking radiation since the ratio of surface area to mass increases as the black hole gets smaller.
That is why the earth hasn't spontaneously become a micro black hole, or the sun, or Jupiter, etc. Hawking's theories are that all or nearly all micro black holes were formed during the Big Bang.
When a star colapses into a black hole, it isn't because it suddenly gains enough mass to do so, it is because it runs out of fusable matter to sustain the outward pressure keeping it from collapsing.
My point was that if you had a normal black hole, it must have had enough mass to spontaneously compress, and thus any given mass of the same amount, lacking any other force working to push out, will naturally collapse into a black hole too.
Here is where you are wrong. A supergiant star clearly has enough mass to collapse into a black hole, but doesn't, because it has enough hydrogen and helieum left to keep the fusion reaction going, this reaction produces an outward force preventing collapse.
Yes, whether or not a black hole will form depends on M and V, but whether one will form naturally or not depends solely on M, as barring any other force it will naturally compress to the required V.
No, it also depends on the type of matter it is. If it is all hydrogen, it will remain a star and not collapse into a black hole for a few hundred million years.
To explain Global's question about orbiting, sufficient speed to orbit a sufficient mass is enough regardless of what form that mass is in, whether star, planet, or black hole, as long as the orbit is outside of the event horizon, as once it has passed the event horizon the necessary orbital speed would be faster than the speed of light (thus the whole two event horizons for Star Trek thing).
The event horizon of a black hole of a certain mass will be closer to its center then you could get to the center of a star of the same mass, and survive. Note that ships in the MOO series can travel at faster than the speed of light, so each class of starship engine would have its own special event horizon.

[RobNelson]

LOL. :D

The hazards of mentioning anything scientific in a group of sci-fi fans. :D

[damion]

Everyone got all the cool science already. :(

On a game note, it would be nice if they did something. Maybe the first ship you sent to each could generate RP or something, or maybe allow some tech.

(It is also theoretically possible to generate power from spinning black holes, so there's another idea.)

I was hoping for an easter egg actually
I mean, that's where I'd put one. ;)
Oh well.

[Bhruic]

My point was that if you had a normal black hole, it must have had enough mass to spontaneously compress, and thus any given mass of the same amount, lacking any other force working to push out, will naturally collapse into a black hole too.

Here is where you are wrong. A supergiant star clearly has enough mass to collapse into a black hole, but doesn't, because it has enough hydrogen and helieum left to keep the fusion reaction going, this reaction produces an outward force preventing collapse.

Not sure how you can conclude he's "wrong". He clearly states "lacking any other force working to push out". You even state in your example that the fusion reaction "produces an outward force". That obviously fits within the criteria of "force working to push out", which makes his original assertion correct.

Bh

[Ranma Saotome]

Not sure how you can conclude he's "wrong". He clearly states "lacking any other force working to push out". You even state in your example that the fusion reaction "produces an outward force". That obviously fits within the criteria of "force working to push out", which makes his original assertion correct.
He says later in the post that I was quoting that weather a black hole will form depneds solely on mass, my point was that it depends on both mass and on what type of matter it is. This was all in response to my claim that a black hole is no more dificult to navigate around than a non-black hole mass of the same magnitude, which he responded to by claiming that any mass of sufficient magnitude to form a black hole would immediately form one, that claim is clearly wrong.

[Ron_Lugge]

Originally posted by RobNelson
LOL. :D

The hazards of mentioning anything scientific in a group of sci-fi fans. :D

Quite right. I'd jump in, but I haven't taken astrophysics yet.

[rhyssana]

actually, i was thinking it's just a tough crowd all around. all of us are likely geeks of at least one kind, some of us probably in more than one area...... hard to slip anything past without at least enough science to convince the audience that you know enough to be making the joke you appear to be trying for... :)

-rhyssan

[RobNelson]

Oh, don't worry. We're laughing even as we point out the errors. :D

Kinda like Bugs Bunny. ;)

PS. rhyssan, is there any reason you have a new handle every week? Just curious, so if it's too big to go into, I'll understand. :D

[Ericus1]

Originally posted by Ranma Saotome
He says later in the post that I was quoting that weather a black hole will form depneds solely on mass, my point was that it depends on both mass and on what type of matter it is. This was all in response to my claim that a black hole is no more dificult to navigate around than a non-black hole mass of the same magnitude, which he responded to by claiming that any mass of sufficient magnitude to form a black hole would immediately form one, that claim is clearly wrong.

Alright, this is the last time I'm explaining things. Alright, say you have an equal mass of hydrogen atoms as a black hole in space. What happens?

First, it condenses, then fusion begins, it turns into a star, and 2 or 3 billion years later, it goes nova, and the core becomes a black hole.

My point was that no matter what the mass is, if it is sufficient to form a black hole, it will do so, eventually, regardless of what it's form, whether it take 2 seconds or 3 billion years.

When I originally said that, it was just becuase you said a lump of matter. I don't picture a lump of matter as a nebula of hydrogen atoms, but a solid mass of higher atomic mass atoms, which would lean more towards the 2 seconds side than the 3 billion years side. I'm sorry if I misunderstood. :)

[Beamup]

Not quite right. A collection of mass - ANY mass - will form a black hole if its radius is less than R_s, as I mentioned above. Most matter does not form black holes because other forces (e.g. radiation pressure, in the case of a star, or degeneracy pressure in the case of a neutron star) keeps the radius from getting down to R_s. The formation of a black hole does not only depend on mass, and it does not depend on type of matter at all. It depends on mass, radius, and that's it.

Clarify - the matter does not need to be one piece, or spherical. If there is an amount of mass M contained within a sphere of radius R_s(M), it forms a black hole.

Also, stars lose mass over their lifetime, so a new star must be much more massive than 1.4 solar masses (the threshold above which neutron degeneracy pressure cannot overcome gravity) at the beginning of its lifetime if it is to mass 1.4 solar masses at the end. 6-7 solar masses, roughly, IIRC.

[rhyssana]

Originally posted by RobNelson

PS. rhyssan, is there any reason you have a new handle every week? Just curious, so if it's too big to go into, I'll understand. :D
LOL!!
actually, yes. and it all starts with att selling off their broadband access stuff to comcast. you wouldn't think this would be terrible, but it does require you to change your email address everywhere... and atari doesn't seem to think that should be legal. at least, i haven't been able to get a response from anyone there in the last few weeks that i've been trying... (iskabis is my husband - he no longer plays moo3, so i used his acct temporarily. when it had gone on for long enough, i made a new account. maybe they'll still unlock my old one sometime, but at least this is more recognizable til then...)

-rhyssan

[RobNelson]

LOL. :D

I understand now. Thanks. :D