question for Mr. Harpo.

[raptorrvnge4928]

This is directed primarily at you Harpo, though anybody can chime in about this. I understand Harpo, you are very concerned with the safety of Six Flags parks in general. In a thread, that I cannot pinpoint of the top of my head, you had mentioned some concern for X-Flight, their Vekoma flying dutchman. As I recall, X-Flight has almost harnesses, instead of safety bars. It is my general belief that rollercoasters are generally safe, but I do respect your opinion. Do you have reason to believe that this is a ride that should be skipped, seeing as on Saturday my roomate and I plan travel out there (and to CP on Sunday :D )?

[Harpo]

Well, I won't go so far as to say it should be skipped. I've ridden it several times, and I will ride it again. However, I'd recommend holding on, rather than having arms up.

Now, I have to admit that my opinions on X-Flight are based upon superficial inspection. I wish I could open up the car and get a better look -- it would either confirm or destroy my suspicions.

The harness has three primary holding points, being the lap, the right shoulder, and the left shoulder. The lap bar, in my opinion, is the most secure of the holding points. It has a deadbolt-style latch holding it in place. The shoulder pieces concern me, however. It is my opinion that if either one should fail, the lap bar and remaining shoulder strap won't be sufficient to hold in the average rider. (I'm lucky in this regard -- coasters are usually designed with an average body size as mine, hence I've got a good feeling for what would happen to the average rider.) The shoulder straps appear to be all fabric and padding, and they appear to have one latch point. If the latch point or fabric were to fail (possibly even failing inside the padding, where it cannot be inspected with non-destructive testing techniques), I believe the rider would fall out.

Also, I feel there's enough flexibility in the shoulder straps that, in a panic situation, a reasonably agile person could wiggle out. I feel quite certain I could wiggle out. Of course, I have no intention of doing so. My suspicions were somewhat confirmed on Batwing (copy of X-Flight). When I rode that coaster, for reasons I don't recall, my jacket was a bit bunched up. At the time, it kept the left harness from being as tight as it should. During the ride, my left shoulder was out of the harness -- my left arm was keeping me in the ride.

So, for safety, the key tips I can provide on X-Flight are:
Make sure the shoulder straps are as tight as they can be;
Keep your arms somewhat hugging around the shoulder straps in order to keep them closed;
Do not wiggle around.

With appropriate cautions, the ride can probably be ridden with a reasonable level of safety, but I still don't entirely trust those harnesses. I really would like to see them replaced with styles similar to the B&M flying coasters.

I hope that information is helpful.

Late Addition via Edit:

When I typed the above, I was a bit rushed. I was running late for dinner with my folks, sister, and niece. What a tragedy! Call me busy, call me absent-minded, just don't call me late for dinner!

Anyway, here are a couple of points I felt I should add.

For the possibility of panicking, that's clearly not an issue for most roller coaster riders. It would be an issue that primarily relates to someone who has been grudgingly dragged onto their first coaster and is more than a little scared. It could also relate to an unusual incident. For example, if someone is deathly afraid of bees, and they see a bee floating around near the train as it approaches the top, they might panic. Such panicking issues would probably be unlikely on X-Flight, but not impossible.

As for harness failure, it's probably fairly unlikely right now, since the ride is only about 2 years old. Based on my perceived stresses on the ride, I suspect harness failure could become a bigger issue when the ride is 5 to 7 years old. By that time, wear will start to become an issue. Then, the type of mechanism that is hidden from view becomes a bigger issue, as does wear on the fabric. There are some mechanisms that would be better able to withstand wear. Hopefully, they used such mechanisms in this ride.

I'm reminded of something I heard while I worked at Cedar Point in the late '80's. At the time, Cedar Point was not considering building a stand-up coaster. The C.P. safety department examined Kings Island's King Cobra, and they felt the harnesses were unsafe, so they decided to wait and see what the next generation of stand-up coaster would be like. They were of the opinion that someone would be killed due to the harness design for the Togo stand-up coasters. On August 23, 1999, a person was killed on Shockwave at Paramount's Kings Dominion after falling off the ride. Less than a month later, a teenager jumped out of the harness, saying that he didn't think it was secured. At that point, the ride had been running for about 13 years. (Following the accident, Paramount studied the harness design. I don't recall the old harnesses, but I understand they made some modifications to prevent future accidents.)

My point about that story: sometimes a harness design flaw can exist, but it can take many years before it results in an injury or fatality. I hope there is never a fatality from X-Flight or Batwing, but I really find the design to be suspicious, and it won't surprise me if someone does fall out of one of those rides someday.

[SariaSedai]

Hello,

I really enjoyed reading your safety post and thought I would just share 2 personal experiences.

I used to live close to Paramount's Kings Island and would get a season pass every year. You had mentioned King Cobra in your post. I have ridden that coaster several times and I did NOT feel very safe. I am 5'1" and not a very big gal, so I think this may have contributed to it. You basically sat on a bicycle seat and they adjusted the height, then there were two bars that came in from the sides that you put your arms thorough. I felt like I was holding myself in the whole time. So yeah not a big fan of stand up coasters. I believe King Cobra has been taken down though.

Also there is a newer ride at Kings Island called Face Off. The last time I was there I rode this ride with my sister, my boyfriend and his brother. You face the other two riders in front of you, so I was sitting facing my sister. It's one of those coasters that pulls you up, holds you there and then drops you (sorry i'm not good with the terminology). When the coaster went up and my sister was hanging in the air facing forward, I saw a look of terror on her face and she gripped the arm bars very hard. Well, then when it was my turn to be hung up in the air facing forward, I knew why she was so scared. When I was up in the air, the force of the stop pushed my body straight forward into the "crotch bar" and into the arm bars. It literally felt like I was going to fall. Maybe that's part of the thrill, but it didn't feel too good.

Overall I feel safe in roller coasters, but I always hang on tight at certains points because I know that I could climb out of the restraints (not that I would) or if I wasn't paying attnetion lose an arm!

Just thought I would add my comments.

[Harpo]

I understand what you mean about Face/Off, but it hasn't prevented me from riding it! However, I feel that I'm large enough that I couldn't fall off it unless the harness failed.

If Face/Off made you feel uncomfortable, I would strongly recommend that you avoid the vertical invertigo rides, which would be the Deja Vu coasters at a few Six Flags parks. It's a similar harness to Face/Off (but not quite identical), but you're actually facing directly downward while on that ride. It would be possible to be hanging there with your bottom completely off the seat, with 100% of your weight resting on the harness.

Thanks for the input!

[SariaSedai]

OMG, all my weight harness the whole time? I think I will avoid that. Face Off was fun, don't get me wrong, but it was 6 seconds of utter fear that made me hesitant to ride it again.

Thanks for the reply http://66.227.101.70/cwm/3dlil/wink.gif.

[CedarPoint89]

I have to say i like X-Flights Harnsses, they are VERY comfortable and allow movement, i dont think i can get out of the shoulder harneses because i would have to fit my head under them too, anyway the only thing I dont like about them is that when they flip you over so your flying your pressed up against the harness, it fells like the harness is going to give-way and ill fall out, but its probably meant to feel that way, it adds an extra thril factor

[iAMpaste001]

Originally posted by CedarPoint89
it fells like the harness is going to give-way and ill fall out, but its probably meant to feel that way, it adds an extra thril factor

Yeah you could be right about that, but personally I think any ride that relies on the fear that you will be hurt or will die to make it more exciting and thrilling is a pretty poor design. Being concerned about my safety is NOT the kind of thrill I want! :eek: