Comanche RAH-66 project cancelled

[Ranger]

I haven't found any solid documents confirming this yet but on the news this morning there was a short clip about it being stuck in the dumpster.

This is kinda BS, they spend over 10 years and probably a billion plus dollars on the project, AND only 1 year away from the first combat groups, now they cancel it?

[arrrse]

Thats not really surprising.
It was supposed to be a high tech, stealthy, lightweight, lightly armed, scout helicopter.
But it turned into an over weight, unstealthy, ugly, barely less armed than an apache, very expensive, more or less conventional medium/heavy attack helicopter.
Its very much many billions of dollars dude.

The lead times on modern military projects are getting ridiculous.
The US military is finding increasingly that the projects that were intended to replace 70's/80's tech weaponry, wind up being insanely expensive, extraordinarily late and with changing requirements, not necessarily fit for the job.

To that end, the f22 which was supposed to be a more or less 1 for 1 replacement for the 3000 or however many f15s is increasingly looking like there will be fewer than 300 built.
The NASA space shuttle goes out of service in 2010 and there isn't even a program to choose a design for a replacement, just broad design concepts.
The submarine Seawolf and its sistership were supposed to be the more or less 1 for 1 replacement for the LA class Nuclear Attack submarine, but they turned out to be so insanely expensive that congress I think specifically banned the Navy from building more than the 1 complete and the 1 building.
I believe they may have actually started building Seawolf-lite subs now though which would be an exception to my rule of extraordinarily high lead times except that Seawolf was supposed to be out in the 80s or 90s I believe...

[Hot4Darmat]

With lead times like that, we'd better set up and register NSO LaPlace Industries right now, so we can start the concept and design bidding process for the NSO-929. The first production model is supposed to roll out for service by 2254!

[SchnozBott]

Originally posted by Hot4Darmat
With lead times like that, we'd better set up and register NSO LaPlace Industries right now, so we can start the concept and design bidding process for the NSO-929. The first production model is supposed to roll out for service by 2254!
Good thing we already know what to name the prototype ;)

[jessica00]

:D

[Ranger]

Well, that's army efficiency for you. Maybe the Marines will pick it up. It's a good chopper without them bloating it up with weapons.

[arrrse]

But its already been bloated up with weapons & systems & other extra stuff.

I think its a crap helicopter.

It should have been a notar or even a tilt rotor but when they went from concepts to the start of choosing the one to prototype, the military ruled out anything but a bog standard helicopter type...

[Ranger]

The current tilt-rotor aircraft, V-22 Osprey, is having a lot of problems. The AV-8B Harrier, VTOL Jump Jet, also has pretty limited range so the standard helicopter design works pretty well- able to hover above water and go long distances with the fuel tank attachment.

[The corporate]

It is just this reason why they have switched over to projects like the JSF fighter planes. They will be adaptable to many roles and are being scoped back to just 'slightly superior to everything else' instead of 'insanely unstoppable'.

My uncle is working on the Vertical Lift fan that will be part of the naval version. If it works as it is supposed to it is going to be very cool.

A bit of news coverage for you.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/161837_comanche24.html

[Nightwatch]

Its topics like this that remind me of this...

When NASA first started sending up astronauts, they quickly discovered that ball-point pens would not work in zero gravity.

To combat this problem, NASA scientists spent a decade and $12 billion developing a pen that writes in zero gravity, upside down, on almost any surface including glass and at temperatures ranging from below freezing to over 300 C.

The Russians used a pencil.


(It also reminds me of the old saying that a camel is a horse built by a commitee...)

[Ranger]

Gotta love russian efficiency...

[Keyan]

No, that is not true, and i hate it when people use that quote. The Fisher pen company invested their own R & D dollars to make the pen which did not cost anywhere close to 12 billion dollars. They then sold it to NASA and several other special needs industries as they have some unique properties (can be used to write underwater as well as space). And it is a good thing they used those pens, as Neil Armstrong managed to break off one of the switchs for the Lunar Module's ascent rocket with his backpack and they had to take the pen apart to trigger the internal mechanism.

The current order for the F-22 was increased to closer to 600 recently...while it won't replace all of the F-15s, it will pulverize any other air force on the planet to the point where non-stealth aircraft can fly without much worry. The sheer psycholocigal effect of the aircaft's existance in a combat zone cannot be understated...do you attack what appears to be an unescorted flight of transports? Would you want to leave the ground knowing that the first sign you will have that an F-22 is there is your Radar warning system beeping frantcially that an AMRAAM has you in it's "no escape zone" where you cannot out manuver it? Or even better, they sneak in out of the sun and get within the 6 mile or so range of the AIM-9x, open up the side panel and boresight it and completly passively launch the missile so the first thing you know is that your aircraft is coming apart around you?

The JSF got a lot of things right, it is a very cool and adaptable aircraft. It is a stealthy F-16 in essence, and the VSTOL version for the Marines is really cool.

The comanche looks cool, but I've always pondered the need for a stealty helicopter when the general environment for helicopters is low enough that small arms and MANPADS are a much larger threat and you now have cheap low flying stealthy heatless drones that can do the recon aspect of the mission profile so much better.

[ShaggyMoose]

What he said.:D

What the **** is a MANPAD?

[The corporate]

My guess

Man portable weapons (stinger missiles, et al)

[Nightwatch]

I'll see your f-22 and I'll raise you by a Russian hypsersonic torpedo slamming into yoru aircraft carrier (hell I'll be nice and only use the mark 1 version.. :D)

Of we could try a tank race with a French Leclerk if you like, that ought to be fun. Or an UNDERWATER tank race with a german leapord...

Btw, you do know that a Stealth fighter was nearly shot down be a british destroyer in the first gilf war? It could see it on radar clear as day and thought it was an enemy fighter as it was not transmitting a transponder signal. They were sithin 2 seconds of launching at it when they were told to stand down. It seems that US stealth is only really effective against US and Russian radar (as far as we know...) The British developed their radar system independantly.

Flame shields on! :D

[The Great Destroyer]

My guess is that you're talking about those supercavitation torpedoes which are said to be already in service in the Russian Navy.


BTW,If I'm not mistaken even Stealth technology could be detected by the russians since they were obviously able to shoot down one of the U-2's during the cold-war.

[Ranger]

U-2's weren't that stealthy, their advantage was high level flight, well above the range of most Soviet aircraft and anti-aircraft systems...For a while anyways.

[RMSe17]

Originally posted by Keyan
The current order for the F-22 was increased to closer to 600 recently...while it won't replace all of the F-15s, it will pulverize any other air force on the planet to the point where non-stealth aircraft can fly without much worry. The sheer psycholocigal effect of the aircaft's existance in a combat zone cannot be understated...do you attack what appears to be an unescorted flight of transports? Would you want to leave the ground knowing that the first sign you will have that an F-22 is there is your Radar warning system beeping frantcially that an AMRAAM has you in it's "no escape zone" where you cannot out manuver it? Or even better, they sneak in out of the sun and get within the 6 mile or so range of the AIM-9x, open up the side panel and boresight it and completly passively launch the missile so the first thing you know is that your aircraft is coming apart around you?


F-22's reflective profile is some 50x larger than that of F-117. Last time I checked, wasn't one of those knocked out by the obsolete SAM system in Serbia?

[jessica00]

russian's certainly do things far more effeciently.
theres a saying that a good russian tune up = swift kick.

[Turbostr@w]

MEANWHILE! Nasa gets 15 billion to make a new space shuttle, build a base on the moon, maintain the ISS, and send men to Maaaars!

[arrrse]

Unless you've heard something I haven't, NASA gets 1 billion in new funding + 12 billion of [b]existing budget[/] transferred from other projects (ie existing programs cancelled)for Dubyas hairbrained scheme.

F22, JSF and Comanche are really mostly 'stealth style' as in flight performance overrules stealth.
Mostly I think the stealth stuff is about psychological warfare.

Of course, where the enemy hasn't sufficient technology, stealth will help, but then the enemy isn't likely to be shooting down the overwhelming number of f15s the US can bring to bear either is it?

I believe that sufficiently high tech radar can track the exhaust plume/induced drag vortexes of a stealthy plane (vortexes rotate much faster in the middle & exhaust exits fast backwards = should draw a nice line along the planes' path on a doppler radar that is looking for such things) or even just pick out the moving section of the sky that gives no background return (no return = there is a stealth plane there)

There is no such thing as an infrared stealthy high speed (supersonic) plane simply because of drag friction and the amount of energy required to be pumped out the exhaust to get you fast enough.
Supercruise does help though.
Even the b2 was tracked on approach to the Farnborough airshow in the 90s by a British IR sensor.

Supercruise only works when you don't have external stores (the original idea being that stealth aircraft would operate without either external fuel or weapons because its more stealthy) but with both internal fuel and weapons, you get both relatively short range and limited payload so f22, JSF and Comanche are all going to be working most of the time with massively unstealthy external payloads/fuel tanks.
Thus a normal, cheaper design would be the better solution.

Going up to 600 f22s is not entirely surprising from this ludicrious right government but you guys will be getting crappier social services from your government in return...
Even then, its still a long way away from a 1 for 1 replacement for the f15 which by the way, I've not heard of any f15s ever being shot down.
The biggest air to air combat in the modern (post 1990) period that I know of was in 1991 when 4 f15s destroyed 2 Iraqi su27s trying to flee to Iran.
The f15s got into max amraam range (ie well beyond visual) & fired 4 missiles, the first su27 didn't even realise it was being fired at and the second barely started to break turn before it was hit.
The end.
If they'd been f22s, it would have been no different.

The Serbian missile system was an up to date Russian one & I believe an air defence training ground so the crews were trained with the latest techniques.
Also the jamming plane (oh yes, even f117s are highly reliant on jammers) was probably too far away.

[Turbostr@w]

Originally posted by arrrse
Unless you've heard something I haven't, NASA gets [b]1 billion in new funding + 12 billion of existing budget[/] transferred from other projects (ie existing programs cancelled)for Dubyas hairbrained scheme.


Ah well thats even worse, so there +p

[arrrse]

Yeah, sux doesn't it :sour:

Oh and JSF is no 'alternative' to f22, its a single design of plane to replace multiple different existing planes (f16, a10, av8b, f14, f18 etc) and a fully intended counterpart to the f22 in the typical US military 'hi-lo' scheme (where f22 is high and jsf is low).

If it turns out not to be good enough at any of those varied tasks, then there will be a big problem.

[Nightwatch]

They made a lot of the same claims as the F22 for The Eurofighter Typhoon (i.e. it was going to be stealthy etc) but everyone thought it was going to turn out a turkey. It actually turned out to be a damn fine Aircraft. And it costs 3 times less than an F22 will. Go figure...

[Ironside]

The Eurofighter is not much better than the current Mig 29, which costs like a twelth of the price. The MOD is taking our batch of aircraft with concrete in instead of a gun, cause the Eurofighter gun sucks. Not to mention derating the engine. Far too many countries had a work share on that one. Not to mention all the major nations involved are cutting back on how many they want to buy.

[arrrse]

Eurofighter is another one vastly delayed, more expensive & not necessarily as good as it should be.
Came close to cancellation a number of times I believe too.
Only really finished to prevent needing to buy similarly delayed & overpriced US planes I think.

Claims of stealthiness for Eurofighter have always intrigued me because in its basic configuration, there is no indication at all of any attempt to make it stealthy.

Curiously the French Rafale which started out as effectively a competing design for Eurofighter has had operational aircraft since 2002 inspite of similar delays and even has some stealth features.

[Ironside]

The Eurofighter, has a minimal stealth ability due to the use of Radar absorpbent materials, but that is largely pointless cause you can chock it up with weapons and bam they give a great return.

What you said about cancellation + the fact that the engines, and radar and things like that are British and some other bits (wing design I think but not sure) and they did not want to screw up BAE.

As you say, another case of we want it to do all these thing, and halfway thru the process, it's got to do even more and they just keep adding. They are having similar problems with the new Royal Navy carriers, the astute class attack subs and probably will have them on the type 45 destroyer. Most government departments, but particularly the MOD, can't manage a project to save their lives. THey just keep changing the designs halfway through developement. So the defence contractors structure their contracts accordingly. Part of the reason the new carrier project is being managed by the French company Thales is to teach BAE a lesson.

[arrrse]

Well from what I know, the biggest problem the Eurofighter has had is the German Government wibbling about the fitout or even if they wanted to continue with their part of the project.

The English MoD is not really the problem, nor any other equivalent foreign bodies, rather the massive complexity of the projects & the extremely detailed testing now required, which invariably results in huge & increasing development times & costs per unit.

Its a problem faced by any military globally and very many other diverse civilian companies too.

The problem being that with the long lead in times, the initial requirements become obsolete during early development, so either the project is accepted as being obsolete at introduction, or the specs are updated, resulting in further delays as the project is modified to take into account the new tech/requirements & so creates more likelyhood that the project will suffer from obsolescence in early development.

For example, I remember when Intel was working on the original Pentium, as far as I know they had some length of breather after completion before starting to work on the pentium 2, while today they are already well into the planning/development of like the 4th or 5th generation CPU after pentium4c even while various new/improved cores are released.

Another example is the CPUs in the f22 and JSF.
The f22 has an expensive custom designed CPU of about 2gflop power (actually I think its 2 cpus with 2gflops each), which was insanely powerful for the early 80s when the plane was started & only probably became possible due to the extended development times.
Yet the 'smaller & cheaper' JSF, started only a few years later has an 'off the shelf' CPU that is much cheaper and at least an order of magnitude more powerful but which will nonetheless look like a pocket calculator compared to the desktop PCs that will be out by the time JSF begins operational service in something like 10-15 years.

This is the kind of pattern that makes me quite sure that the US manned space program is down the gurgler now, since the space shuttles are due to be phased out in 2010 and the replacement is not even past the phase of purely speculative concepts, let alone at the stage of working up a prototype.
Even finally having even limited production aircraft flying, the Eurofighter won't even be properly operational till about 2012 at best, so I can't see a Shuttle replacement being even in testing till maybe 2020 even if NASA had started recieving serious new funding to actually develop the thing several years ago.

[Ironside]

Well true, but the military do keep tending to over specify their equipment, as was said earlier, about them wanting something that wastes the opposition, not is just a little better than. Also Defence contractor have a vested interest in getting the militaries of the world to change the spec all the time. BAE is part of the consortium building the new British 58000 ton carriers and is already saying they can't do it for the money, despite being part of the bid. They always plan to up the price. The military need to go with an off the shelf approach for their aircraft instead of trying to creat something new. They need a fixed upgrade path for the period in service. THe Eurofighter was having trouble providing a viable workshare for every member of the consortium. That is why it's so ****ed up. Everybody who was gonna buy em, wanted their nataional companies to get a slice of the pie and coordinating that many natiosn never works. Design by Uber large commitee. THe MOD have reduced their order and removed the gun from all the ones they buy, under orders of the treasury.