Importer TNG: Veteran input/help required

[Belgabor]

Hi guys,

As already mentioned I plan to create a new importer. As my time is limited I hope some people can support me with information and a few tests.

Please, NO feature requests yet!
I have a certain image in my mind. When I have that realized, at least as a demo, you're welcome to post them, but now it's too early.

If you're interested, I voiced what I imagine here (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7923493&postcount=23) (not completely up-to-date).

So here's what I need of you:
Is it possible to use scenery ovls multiple times within the same theme? Resolved: No
Has anyone ever successfully used References?
Does more than one icon texture work? Resolved: Yes
I'm not really good at reading c/c++, therefore I have a hard time figuring out the ovl file format or even the dumper source. If someone is good at that, it would be nice to have a utility that essentially converts an ovl to an xml file (even better if it also could do that backwards). It should NOT dump the actual 3d data as we don't want to run into copyright problems. Please also document the source and make the code as clean as possible =)


(this list is subject to extension)

[The_Cook]

I seem to recall either the importer or the game crashing if the same ovl is used twice within a theme.

I think ShyGuy might have managed to get references to work, but some people were seeing problems therefore he backed the references out of his set.

PM me separately regarding the C/C++, I've looked at both the importer/exporter and can probably answer some of your questions. Any kind of conversation at that level of detail on a thread will just elicit hundred of "I don't understand" replies from the kids hereabouts, which is an annoyance when you're trying to get something done.

[Belgabor]

I seem to recall either the importer or the game crashing if the same ovl is used twice within a theme.
Could somebody please test this?

I think ShyGuy might have managed to get references to work, but some people were seeing problems therefore he backed the references out of his set.
Thanks, I'll ask him when he gets back. I suspect that the game usually has special ovls for things referenced, maybe it glitches if you reference to other scenery ovls.

PM me separately regarding the C/C++, I've looked at both the importer/exporter and can probably answer some of your questions. Any kind of conversation at that level of detail on a thread will just elicit hundred of "I don't understand" replies from the kids hereabouts, which is an annoyance when you're trying to get something done.
I'll come back to you on that :D
Currently I need to get the basics up, then I'll look at the internals again. I'm sure I will need advice later :up:

[Usf geek]

Could somebody please test this?


I just tested It, Doesn't crash It just only shows one of the objects.

[Belgabor]

I just tested It, Doesn't crash It just only shows one of the objects.
Sorry, I should have been more precise, how did you test it? I thought of two otherwise completely different scenery entries that use the same ovl.

[Usf geek]

I put two of the same OVL's In the same group with different names, And only 1 showed up.

[Belgabor]

ok, that should solve it, thanks :D

[CoasterSim.Fan]

[list] Is it possible to use scenery ovls multiple times within the same theme? No
Has anyone ever successfully used References?
Does more than one icon texture work?


Whole new version this should get good.

As for using scenery ovls multiple times within the same theme I know I have done that accidentally working on my sets and I can confirm only one will appear.

As for has anyone ever successfully used References I know for sure Shyguy got them to work and I think a few others but they seams to cause more crashing problems for people. I think this might have to do with how most of the referenced textures are in sprat oval, ware the importer is referencing to ovals that are part of a scenery piece.

As for does more than one icon texture work I haven’t tried cause I have yet to get a set bi enough to need it but it should work. I know a few scenery makers including shyguy have done that.

[Aceana]

Does more than one icon texture work?

Yes. In fact, allmost all my sets (except one) have more than one icon texture, and they all work just fine. (as far as I know)

[Vodhin]

<snipped by Vodhin> :D

[Belgabor]

I have no idea if this is possible. It is certainly not easy, as the command line options of biturn are limited. You can only make it open a file, not convert it. That's better than nothing, but the rest would have to be done by remote control, of which I don't know if current windows versions allow it.

[Vodhin]

Just getting it to run as if you clicked the icon in the startmenu would be enough... I will think about my idea further...

[Belgabor]

That's no problem, including opening a certain file (if it works as advertised).

[CoasterSim.Fan]

Out of curiosity what does TNG stand for.

[The_Cook]

Out of curiosity what does TNG stand for.

The Next Generation

[shyguy]

Has anyone ever successfully used References?


I have unsuccessfully gotten referencing to work. :p

The problem this seems to cause is the referenced piece frequently (not always) crashes the game when placed. To be more clear, if I assigned 3H Stucco Wall the stucco.bmp texture and used it as a reference for the other walls (1H, 2H, etc.), when placing the 3H Stucco Wall, the game will usually crash. Placing the 1H Stucco Wall, 2H Stucco Wall, etc. doesn't cause the crash.

I used this extensively with my Main Street Sets and had so many crashes, I had to remove most of the referencing. I did leave some referencing, though. Some people still had crashes, while many others had no problem. I never could figure out why some pieces always caused crashes and others only happened to a few people, but worked fine for most.

I have since stopped using referencing completely.

[Belgabor]

Thanks for the insight :D
Could you nevertheless explain how you did it (probably two screenshots of the create ovl window with one item referring to the other would be enough)? Maybe I'll experiment with it, so it would be good to know exactly what partly worked =)

[shyguy]

First, create an object using the texture you plan to reference. You don't need to do anything special. For this example, the file name is shy-ms3wall brick3.

For the next object you want to make, open the .ase file. In the example below, it's shy-ms3wall brick1. In the Add Reference field, type in the name of the first object you created. (The one you are using to reference the texture)

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2457/snap1vm8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)




Next, click the Add Reference tab. It will move the file name up to the References field. If there are more than one texture you are using, you can add those as well, using the same process. This may increase the probability of causing a crash in the game, though.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9647/snap2hm5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


As it's been a while since I've done this, I'm not one hundred percent sure of this next part, but I'm pretty sure you need to set the mesh flag for each object in the mesh list. Just don't add any textures there.


That's it. Just click the Save Scenery OVL tab and you're through.

[Belgabor]

Thanks,

there is still one point I don't get. How do you select the (referenced) texture in the mesh dialog? It only shows those you added to the texture list.

[shyguy]

As memory serves, you don't choose anything. Just leave it blank. But as I stated above, I'm not totally sure about this part. I'll have to play around with it later, when I get some time.

[Belgabor]

I don't know which version of the importer you used, but the latest one should balk at that.
I've still a lot to do for TNG, so take your time =)

[coinich]

I have a small request; you post a small post on what all of these importers do. So many have been released, I can see a compatability problem arising. I thank you for all of the work you have done though.

[Belgabor]

I don't know what was before jonwils v14 as that's the 'oldest' I used. All versions beyond that are compatible. The only thing that obviously won't work is opening a scn file with the 'fix orientation' flag in an older verison (Well, you can open it, but the old version will ignore the flag). TNG will have it's own file formats, so there won't be any compatibility problems either. I will do import funtions for thm, scn and sid files, but due to the structure of TNG importing an thm file will not be enough to give you a working TNG theme.

[Vodhin]

I think I understand the reference:

make an OVL with the textures you use for other walls but do not add it as a scenery piece (that special OVL will not show up in the list). You should have to add the special OVL into your folders manually (unless Belgabor can work his magic and add a form to sneak it in for you). This would explain why the game crashes when trying to place the referenced OVL and not the pieces that point to it...


I believe that you will have to add the special OVL file into the same folder (location in theme) that the referencing pieces exist. It's worth a shot to see if it works :)

[Belgabor]

That's exactly what I thought and will try to do as soon as the basics work =)

[Vodhin]

That's exactly what I thought and will try to do as soon as the basics work =)

Looking at your new importer I notice the texture OVL button on the front form (it's been there from long ago when Jonwil practically started this project). I wonder if there's any code behind this disabled button?

[Belgabor]

No, no code behind.
I did a few dumps & looked at some hexcode. Unfortunately there seems to be more to the texture thing. Fortunately I think we may solve it.
I don't know if you noticed, but in (current) custom scenery the common.ovl of the individual object files is always the same, they differ only in the unique.ovl.
In this case the common.ovl is a simple index(?) without real content. This is not the case with RCT3 files. Especially in those common texture ovls the situation is reversed! What I start to believe is that the name says it. Stuff in the .common.ovl can be referenced, stuff in .unique.ovl not (at least not bugfree). The only trouble we might run into is that the ovl files have different versions. The importer writes version 1 files, while the texture ovls I looked at were a version 4 or 5 ovl (I don't know if version 2 or 3 ovls exist).

[Vodhin]

I noticed the switch between common and unique OVL file long ago- all of Frontier's OVL sets seem to have the bulk data in the Common 'half' of each piece, while the Unique 'half' looks like it holds simple data for the piece.

Maybe a preload thing is happening- the game scans the unique files when starting up to know the basics about what the piece is, and when you actually call the piece, the rest of the OVL is loaded by the Common half. This maight explain why there is a slight delay when choosing a Frontier piece but not our custom scenery? (and also why the game takes a whole lot longer to start even when just one custom set is added).

Jonwil explained once about why his importer did this, but I forget now. I think I will search...

[coinich]

I know nothing, but wouldn't it be reason that the stuff in the .commom.ovl have all of the data for a passport machine, like functionability, and the .unique.ovl have the data for that one object? Like the object given per tickets? Or am I completly off of my rocker?

[Vodhin]

I know nothing, but wouldn't it be reason that the stuff in the .commom.ovl have all of the data for a passport machine, like functionability, and the .unique.ovl have the data for that one object? Like the object given per tickets? Or am I completly off of my rocker?


I don't think you're off your rocker, but I do think that what you suggest is way off base: there are whole, separate OVL files for what peeps cary- and while the player selects what the peep will have after visiting the passport machine, yes the data for that list is contained in one or the other OVL files for the passport machine.

What I posted about: I think the actual object (meshes,textures,etc.) and the object's settings (placement, texture settings, etc.) are in reversed OVL file names: but our custom scenery doesn't seem to actually use the second OVL for anywhere near as much as Frontier's- it's like half of the data for our custom scenery is thrown in with the object itself.

[coinich]

I meant for scenery .ovls. But I understand what you're saying. If I get that right, you are saying that alot of data is being repeated? Data that could be in the .common.ovl and not the .unique.ovl?

[Belgabor]

I don't know which version of the importer you used, but the latest one should balk at that.
I've still a lot to do for TNG, so take your time =)

Actually you can put an arbitary texture name into the box in the version before my mods, the bug in my reseditor ate that :mad:
Probably that's the way shyguy did it.