The Olympics topic

[teclis]

So, who saw the opening ceremonies?

The art was beautiful. I got a geography lesson :noob:

[Dreadnaught]

I had intended to boycott but my family was cooking dinner and watched, so couldn't be avoided.

Impressive visually. Can't imagine what kinds of horrors were undertaken to pull it off. And the NBC commentary throughout the ceremony was sickeningly scripted and ebullient.

[Loki]

I had intended to boycott but my family was cooking dinner and watched, so couldn't be avoided.

Impressive visually. Can't imagine what kinds of horrors were undertaken to pull it off. And the NBC commentary throughout the ceremony was sickeningly scripted and ebullient.

Ditto there. The political commentary was hilariously ignorant.

[littlelolligagged]

The shots of Bush in the audience watching were ****ing hilarious, though.

I didn't actually think to turn it on until the countries were marching in - I like looking at the outfits, anyway. I will probably watch nothing else but the gymnastics with my daughter until closing ceremonies.

[oldmunchkin]

In all fairness, China put on a hella good show with the opening ceremonies! :)
I did have to laugh at the look on Bush's face when the Iraqi athletes came in. He applauded but looked like he wanted to flip them off. :haha:

[s.s.infinte]

The opening was amazing huge and over the top. 10 times better than the Salt Lake City opening(the only olympics I've bneen to).

[Nessus]

**** Beijing 2008

[Widows Peak Oz]

I'm trying to force myself to care, I really am, then I feel guilty, then I remember the smog and think there's no ****in way I am ever going to Beijing.

[RandBlade]

I've been to Beijing, 10 years ago pretty exactly in the summer of '98, nice city but shame about the smog then too.

Good opening ceremony, was expecting a dragon to light the olympic cauldron, think what they actually did was just as good though. The Fireworks were very impressive, but I'm curious how much new smog they created.

[LittleFuzzy]

I have no interest in the pageantry and there are no sports in the Summer Olympics I care about. Only thing I generally tune in for is the figure-skating at the Winter Olympics.

[Nessus]

Well that's the crucial Little Fuzzy vote cleared up, better pack it up and go back home people

[LittleFuzzy]

Well that's the crucial Little Fuzzy vote cleared up, better pack it up and go back home people

Nessie, is it that time of month? You've been reacting to everybody and everything in a "**** you" manner for the last couple of days.

[Phobas]

Not really fussed with the whole affair.
For one I never got into athletics, who cares how fast a guys runs? I guess if you were to release a tiger, it might be interesting, but otherwise no.

Same goes for swiming, whats the point of having all these different strokes? I mean why are you handing medals out to people who use a slower way to swim? Do you hand out medals to people who decide to bunnyhop down the 100m?

I do like gymnastics and diving. Those are fun to watch, technically demanding with the promise of carnage. Really is the essence of a good sport.

[ImAnOgre]

I have no interest in the pageantry and there are no sports in the Summer Olympics I care about. Only thing I generally tune in for is the figure-skating at the Winter Olympics.

Gasp!!! Not even Olympic Beach Volleyball? Watching the women at least, come on now.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/25/40464753_e00594c897.jpg

[Nessus]

Those look like 13-year-old boys

[littlelolligagged]

Gasp!!! Not even Olympic Beach Volleyball? Watching the women at least, come on now.


The funny thing about gay men is that they don't get all excited by looking at women's butts. Imagine that.

[Nessus]

What's the term for straight guys who hang out with gay women?

Desperate?

[ImAnOgre]

The funny thing about gay men is that they don't get all excited by looking at women's butts. Imagine that.

LittleFuzzy is gay too? Wow. I'd never have guessed that.

That raises a question.

Women who like to hang out with gay mean are often referred to as ***hags or fruitflys.

What's the term for straight guys who hang out with gay women?

[Dreadnaught]

And straight guys who hang out with gay men?

[Loki]

And straight guys who hang out with gay men?

Jewish gingers. :o

[ImAnOgre]

Desperate?

ROFLMAO... that's frickin hilarious Ness!!! Thanks for the laugh.:D:haha:

[Vertiginous]

I didn't watch it, although I saw the opening ceremony in The Sun.

I don't really like Olympics, but the opening ceremony was beautiful.

[LittleFuzzy]

And straight guys who hang out with gay men?

Teases.

[Loki]

*backs away slowly*

[Widows Peak Oz]

Those look like 13-year-old boys

What.

[Nessus]

Those look like 13-year-old boys

[Widows Peak Oz]

No.
They do not.

[Nessus]

Yes.

[Widows Peak Oz]

Mmhmm. :bored:

[Nessus]

No it's not all football and ***s!

[Nessus]

Right.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/SinWithSebastian/CollinFarrel.gif

[Widows Peak Oz]

Right.

Edit: Warped forum timer, love it.

[termite]

Are you sure we're allowed to type Olympic on the interweb without paying a royalty?

Olympics = meh

[Hazir]

A bit late, but I saw the opening ceremony, thought it was very pretty but too long really. I will always remember it as a sad day I think because that night I broke up with my boyfriend.

[Rageaholic]

Those look like 13-year-old boys

Odd... I don't know any 13 year old boys that wear bikini bottoms. Or that have tramp stamps for that matter. :weird:

[Widows Peak Oz]

Don't worry Rage, Nessus obviously comes across many toned, tanned, tattooed, supple, shapely and poised 13 year old boys in their brightly coloured meat-hangers and female volleyball players to make the comparison, in his daily life. :)

[Lor]

I've watched some of the Olympics, some of the female hockey players are rather nice. :up:

I've never been one to watch the olympics 24/7 since i hardly get the time to do so. Plus the track stuff hasn't started i don't think (i prefer track events). Gymnastics and Diving was pretty cool, especially the physical strength of those who par-take in the gym stuff. :up:

[littlelolligagged]

I've watched a lot more than I normally would, trying to record the gymnastics for the girlchild, who is impressed.

I think it is too bad that they insist on showing the bit that little girls all over the country will want to watch in primetime television on school nights.

[Loki]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7556058.stm

Hey mommy, why can't I get the main role? It's because you're too ugly, daughter. :bored:

[Lor]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7556058.stm

Hey mommy, why can't I get the main role? It's because you're too ugly, daughter. :bored:
I read that earlier, rather lame. :down:

[littlelolligagged]

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/political-pictures-george-bush-womens-volleyball-wwbd.jpg

[Lor]

Well, you clearly aren't hanging out in the right clubs. Right, Momo? :o



That's only because they don't actually play hockey.
Fancy a bet on that mister? :mad:

[Lor]

Of course. No body checking = not hockey.
Oh thats a mild technicality, until you lot across the pond change your wording from 'Soccer' to 'Football' and your 'American Football' to 'American Rugby'. I'll proceed to designate said woman (or men actually) game as - Hockey! :mad:

PS: Got the bike yet?

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm sure LoR was checking quite a few bodies.

Ba Dum ... Tish!

[Porteño]

Afghanistan http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Albania http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Algeria http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
American Samoa http://www.nbcolympics.com
Andorra http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Angola http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Argentina http://olimpiadas.terra.com.ar/2008/
Armenia http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Aruba http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Australia http://au.sports.yahoo.com/olympics/video
Austria http://sport.orf.at/spiele08
Azerbaijan http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Bahrain http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Bangladesh http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Belarus http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Belgium http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Benin http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Bhutan http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Bolivia http://olimpiadas.terra.com/2008/
Bosnia and Herzegovina http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Botswana http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Brazil http://olimpiadas.terra.com.br/2008/
British Indian Ocean Territory http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Brunei http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Bulgaria http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Burkina Faso http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Burundi http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Cambodia http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Cameroon http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Canada - CBC http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/
Canada - Radio Canada http://pekin.radio-canada.ca/pekin/
Cape Verde http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Central African Republic http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Chad http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Chile http://olimpiadas.terra.cl/2008
China http://www.cctv.com
Chinese Taipei http://ch5.com.tw/
Colombia http://olimpiadas.terra.com.co/2008
Comoros http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Congo http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Congo, The Dem. Rep. Of The http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Cook Islands http://tvnz.co.nz/content/olympics_video
Costa Rica http://olimpiadas.terra.com/2008/
Croatia http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Cuba http://olimpiadas.terra.com/2008/
Cyprus http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Czech Republic http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Denmark 1 http://www.dr.dk/sporten
Denmark 2 http://ol.tv2.dk
Djibouti http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Dominican Republic http://olimpiadas.terra.com/2008/
East Timor http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Ecuador http://olimpiadas.terra.com.ec/2008/
Egypt http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
El Salvador http://olimpiadas.terra.com/2008/
Equatorial Guinea http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Estonia http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Ethiopia http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Falkland Islands (Malvinas) http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Faroe Islands http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Fiji http://tvnz.co.nz/content/olympics_video
Finland http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
France http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
French Guiana http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
French Polynesia http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
French Southern Territories http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Gabon http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Gambia http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Georgia http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Germany 1 http://www.peking.ARD.de
Germany 2 http://peking.zdf.de
Ghana http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Gibraltar http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Greece http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Greenland http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Grenada http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Guadeloupe http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Guatemala http://olimpiadas.terra.com/2008/
Guinea http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Guinea-Bissau http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Haiti http://olimpiadas.terra.com/2008/
Honduras http://olimpiadas.terra.com/2008/
Hong Kong, China http://2008.i-cable.com
Hungary http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Iceland http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
India http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Indonesia http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Iran, Islamic Republic Of http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Iraq http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Ireland http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Israel http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Italy http://pechino2008.rai.it
Ivory Coast http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Japan http://gorin.jp
Jordan http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Kazakhstan http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Kenya http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Kiribati http://tvnz.co.nz/content/olympics_video
Korea, Dem. People's Rep. http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Korea, Republic Of http://www.kbs.co.kr/
Kuwait http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Kyrgyzstan http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Lao People's Dem. Rep. http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Latvia http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Lebanon http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Lesotho http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Liberia http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Libyan Arab Jamahiriya http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Liechtenstein http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Lithuania http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Luxembourg http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Macau, China http://www.cctv.com
Macedonia http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Madagascar http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Malawi http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Malaysia http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Maldives http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Mali http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Malta http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Marshall Islands http://tvnz.co.nz/content/olympics_video
Martinique http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Mauritania http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Mauritius http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Mayotte http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Mexico http://olimpiadas.terra.com.mx/2008/
Micronesia, Fed. States http://tvnz.co.nz/content/olympics_video
Moldova, Republic Of http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Monaco http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Mongolia http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Montenegro http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Morocco http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Mozambique http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Myanmar http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Namibia http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Nauru http://tvnz.co.nz/content/olympics_video
Nepal http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Netherlands www.nos.nl/os2008
Netherlands Antilles www.nos.nl/os2008
New Caledonia http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
New Zealand http://tvnz.co.nz/content/olympics_video
Nicaragua http://olimpiadas.terra.com/2008/
Niger http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Nigeria http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Niue http://tvnz.co.nz/content/olympics_video
Norway http://www1.nrk.no/nett-tv/ol
Oman http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Pakistan http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Palau http://tvnz.co.nz/content/olympics_video
Panama http://olimpiadas.terra.com/2008/
Papua New Guinea http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Paraguay http://olimpiadas.terra.com/2008/
Peru http://olimpiadas.terra.com.pe/2008/
Philippines www.solarsports.ph/
Poland http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Portugal http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Qatar http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Réunion http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Romania http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Russian Federation http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Rwanda http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Saint Pierre And Miquelon http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Samoa http://tvnz.co.nz/content/olympics_video
San Marino http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Saudi Arabia http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Senegal http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Serbia http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Seychelles http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Sierra Leone http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Singapore http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Slovakia http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Slovenia http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Solomon Islands http://tvnz.co.nz/content/olympics_video
Somalia http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
South Africa http://www.supersport.co.za
Spain http://www.rtve.es/pekin08
Sri Lanka http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Sudan http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Swaziland http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Sweden http://www.svt.se/os
Switzerland http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Syrian Arab Republic http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Tajikistan http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Tanzania, United Republic Of http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Thailand http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Togo http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Tonga http://tvnz.co.nz/content/olympics_video
Tunisia http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Turkey http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Turkmenistan http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Tuvalu http://tvnz.co.nz/content/olympics_video
Uganda http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Ukraine http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
United Arab Emirates http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
United Kingdom http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
United States of America http://www.nbcolympics.com
Uruguay http://olimpiadas.terra.com.ar/2008/
Uzbekistan http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Vanuatu http://tvnz.co.nz/content/olympics_video
Vatican City State (Holy See) http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Venezuela http://olimpiadas.terra.com.ve/2008/
Vietnam http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Virgin Islands, British http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Virgin Islands, U.S. http://www.nbcolympics.com
Wallis And Futuna http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics
Yemen http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Zambia http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008
Zimbabwe http://www.youtube.com/beijing2008

[Steely Glint]

For what reason did you just post that?

[']['ear]

I had intended to boycott but my family was cooking dinner and watched, so couldn't be avoided.

Impressive visually. Can't imagine what kinds of horrors were undertaken to pull it off. And the NBC commentary throughout the ceremony was sickeningly scripted and ebullient.

Typical. The opening ceremonies never fail to bug the hell out of me.

I plan to watch little or none of these Olympics. I'm also annoyed that they continue to inflate the sports. Synchronized diving is a classic example. Please. If they are going to add sports, let's try some new ones, OK?

Beach volleyball is actually a classic one. In the US, there are probably 50 times as many people playing ultimate on teams than beach volleyball, yet the latter is an Olympic sport and the former is not? Stupid.

Though I do love those bikinis.

Those look like 13-year-old boys

Nessie likes her some BACK!

IMO, nothing beats the lean athletic woman build. Give me that over curvy ANY TIME. And I will say that it doesn't get much better than the beach volleyball women. I don't leak testosterone much, but damn!

That said, I probably won't watch. :D

[Steely Glint]

In the US, there are probably 50 times as many people playing ultimate on teams than beach volleyball, yet the latter is an Olympic sport and the former is not? Stupid.

Believe it or not, nations which are not the US compete at the Olympics.

[']['ear]

The sport actually has very broad international participation. I'd wager much more so than synchronized diving or beach volleyball.

"Member associations in 46 countries"

http://www.wfdf.org/index.php?page=structure/about.htm

When I played in Seattle, the city league had thirty teams. I've heard it has grown since, and many high schools have teams now (since equipment costs are minimal, requiring a piece of plastic and a field). That was in 1997.

You really want to bet that even a small fraction of the people do synchronized diving or beach volleyball? What about synchronized swimming? OK, I confess that I go out and synchronize swim every weekend, interspersed with some good synchronized dives. :up:

[Illusions]

Believe it or not, nations which are not the US compete at the Olympics.

We could change that...

[littlelolligagged]

No way .... as far as I can tell Michael Phelps is the only person participating this year.

[ImAnOgre]

['ear;10613634"]The sport actually has very broad international participation. I'd wager much more so than synchronized diving or beach volleyball.

"Member associations in 46 countries"

http://www.wfdf.org/index.php?page=structure/about.htm

When I played in Seattle, the city league had thirty teams. I've heard it has grown since, and many high schools have teams now (since equipment costs are minimal, requiring a piece of plastic and a field). That was in 1997.

You really want to bet that even a small fraction of the people do synchronized diving or beach volleyball? What about synchronized swimming? OK, I confess that I go out and synchronize swim every weekend, interspersed with some good synchronized dives. :up:


Dearest Tear,
Have you ever been to UNLV? The campus isn't even near the beach, yet they have over 50 beach volleyball courts on their campus.

In Atlanta, there no major beaches. Yet I'm with-in walking distance of at least 30 beach volleyball courts. I can't tell you of one single ultimate league in Atlanta (except for intramural leagues) yet I know of a different volleyball league that plays every night.

[']['ear]

Dearest Tear,
Have you ever been to UNLV? The campus isn't even near the beach, yet they have over 50 beach volleyball courts on their campus.

In Atlanta, there no major beaches. Yet I'm with-in walking distance of at least 30 beach volleyball courts.

No offense, but BS. 50 on a college campus? 30 within walking distance?

I can't tell you of one single ultimate league in Atlanta (except for intramural leagues) yet I know of a different volleyball league that plays every night.

Beach volleyball? Really? I contest that. Don't conflate the two, please.

Volleyball evolved because gyms are a standard feature of virtually every school above the primary level (and a lot of primaries as well), and it's a great all-purpose sport. As such, it piggybacked off the the major sports that drove the construction of gyms. basketball was actually similar, though it rose to MUCH greater prominence.

Beach volleyball? Not so much. It was a minority boutique sport in California until recently. In fact, I'd claim that its inclusion in the Olympics drove it's rise, rather than the other way around (which should be the case).

In Seattle, there are more adult ultimate teams than adult soccer teams. You know, soccer, the world's most popular sport?

Plus, beach volleyball, if located anyplace other than a beach, required dedicated facilities (namely, a sand pit that is good for little else). Ultimate can be played in any open expanse of grass, which you'll note is near ubiquitous is developed countries. Normal volleyball requires expensive facilities, but as I said it benefits from piggybacking on existing facilities, so no problem there.

I see it as more of an X-games sport than a real sport. But just my opinion.

Edit: I'll add that I feel FAR more strongly in this regard about synchronized diving, which I feel is pure, unadulterated inflation. Beach volleyball I consider a legit sport, if maybe a bit on the fringe.

[Steely Glint]

['ear;10613634"]

"Member associations in 46 countries"

That is ****.

Fédération Internationale de Volleyball (FIVB): 219 members
Fédération Internationale de Natation (FINA) (goving body of all aquatic sports): 192 members

In Seattle, there are more adult ultimate teams than adult soccer teams. You know, soccer, the world's most popular sport?

Seattle contains the worlds largest known concentration of hair gel, baggy pants and iPhones. Is it any surprise that a support called "Ultimate Frisbee" thrives there?

Also, you know, soccer, the game Americans are famous for not playing? Call me when it's it has more teams than the local NFL or basket ball leagues :o

[']['ear]

That is ****.

Fédération Internationale de Volleyball (FIVB): 219 members

Oh, that's nice. Any other non sequiturs? Because this doesn't exactly address beach volleyball, does it?

Fédération Internationale de Natation (FINA) (goving body of all aquatic sports): 192 members

Oooh, let's conflate all aquatic sports with once niche sport that was recently invented! :up:

Seattle contains the worlds largest known concentration of hair gel, baggy pants and iPhones. Is it any surprise that a support called "Ultimate Frisbee" thrives there?

:confused: Um, I'm going to guess you haven't been within a hemisphere of Seattle?

Not that it's specific to Seattle. It's big nationwide, and most colleges have teams now.

Also, you know, soccer, the game Americans are famous for not playing? Call me when it's it has more teams than the local NFL or basket ball leagues :o

Actually, soccer is the most played sport by America's youth, and most community leagues for adults are quite extensive. Care to try again?

[Steely Glint]

['ear;10614293"]Oh, that's nice. Any other non sequiturs? Because this doesn't exactly address beach volleyball, does it?

PROTIP: The International Volleyball Association governs Beach Volleyball as well as regular Volleyball.

Oooh, let's conflate all aquatic sports with once niche sport that was recently invented! :up:

Diving doesn't have it's own international governing body either.

Actually, I really don't know why you're going on about synchronised diving like it's a sport in it's own right. It's part of, you know... diving?

:confused: Um, I'm going to guess you haven't been within a hemisphere of Seattle?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Hemisferio_Oeste.png

You decide!

Not that it's specific to Seattle. It's big nationwide, and most colleges have teams now.

I just love that. It's big nationwide. Right.

I've never even heard of sodding Ultimate Frisbee till you started going on about it. I've sure has hell heard of Beach Volleyball and Synchronised Diving. But no, it's big 'nationwide' so it needs to be in the olympics.

Most Federations of established sports have around 200 members, usually. I know that because had to look this up once because I had an arguement with termite about the fact that the sports Australians usually excel at are the sports played by very few other countries, Cricket and Rugby, and therefore not their success is not quite the achievement they like to pretend it is.

A federation with only 46 members suggests to me a sport with very limited international appeal. Even the ICC, the international governing body of cricket - cricket - has a 106 members, and that sport is basically only played seriously in a few Commonwealth nations.

Here's the Ultimate teams listed on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ultimate_teams

As you can see, there's over 50 notable teams listed for the US and Canada, and 10 for the rest of the world, 6 of which are in the UK. 2 were from Japan, so we can, with justification, say that it is also

mXPUkrz7Uow

Actually, soccer is the most played sport by America's youth, and most community leagues for adults are quite extensive. Care to try again?

That's because they let girls play in Amerika without of the studied disinterest that women's football is treated with in the United Kingdom and the rest of the world. It doesn't translated to actual popularity as a professional sport. Are you really gonna try and tell me that soccer is as popular in America is it is in Europe and world wide?

When y'all stop habitually calling it "soccer" to stop it being confused with the other football and can put together a world dominating team that your population and riches suggest you should be able to, we will then talk.

Can anyone even name offhand, without google, a professional American soccer team?

[Echovirus]

Can anyone even name offhand, without google, a professional American soccer team?
I'll do you better and name three: LA Galaxy, Chicago Fire and D.C. United. Of course, this doesn't count because I get a EUROSPORT catalog in the mail at least once a month and usually the last few pages of each one are MLS team merch, so it's only natural that I remembered a few of the names.

[RandBlade]

I could name LA Galaxy, but solely due to David Beckham.

[Steely Glint]

Someone tell the Americans you're not allowed to have flashy names for football teams. It should be L.A Wanders or something.

[']['ear]

PROTIP: The International Volleyball Association governs Beach Volleyball as well as regular Volleyball.

That's very nice. But can you legitimately claim that beach volleyball, which only started getting popular in the late 80s and early 90s (much of it AFTER its exposure in the Olympics), enjoys the same popularity as normal volleyball, which has been a mainstay of phys ed classes and community rec leagues for 90 years? I think not.



Diving doesn't have it's own international governing body either.

I'm just saying that synchro diving is a boutique niche sport that was added to generate more medals and more air time, and hence more marketing money.

Actually, I really don't know why you're going on about synchronised diving like it's a sport in it's own right. It's part of, you know... diving?

Then why add it? We already had a slew of diving events. Do we really need a slew more of people doing easier dives, but trying to do them in lock step?

You decide!

FYI, in geographical terms the Americas are generally considered to be a separate hemisphere from the other major continents (excluding antarctiva, of course). You know, due to the separation by thousands of miles of ocean?

The point was that your stereotype of Seattle couldn't have been more off target, which indicates that you are completely talking out of your ass about someplace that you have some vague impression of from some movie you saw ten years ago (probably Sleepless in Seattle.). :rolleyes:

I've never even heard of sodding Ultimate Frisbee till you started going on about it.

Perhaps because it's not an Olympic sport? Answer truthfully: had you heard of either beach volleyball or synchro diving before they became Olympic sports? In fact, I'd wager that nobody in CC had except perhaps the Ogre types who are Vball junkies.

I've sure has hell heard of Beach Volleyball and Synchronised Diving.

Yup, the Olympics create their own critical mass, don't they?

But wouldn't you rather see a cool different sport than "more of the same?"

But no, it's big 'nationwide' so it needs to be in the olympics.

I'll confess, the chip on my shoulder about this goes back to 92. At that point, beach volleyball was something people played in Malibu to warm up after surfing, and they'd have a cooler and their Blazer backed up to the beach, etc. The number of players was minimal, since it was a niche sport in certain beach areas. Synchro diving was 100X worse in terms of people actually doing it. At the time, ultimate probably boasted at least 10x more player worldwide, probably far more (and far, far more than synchro diving).

But three factors got bvball and synchro diving added: little clothing, inflation/more marketing for the Olympics and networks, and the fact that dropouts from existing Olympic sports could cross over into the new ones. Add to that poor self-promotion by the people running ultimate.

What do you think happened to the Olympic sports? Naturally enough, the increased. Synchro is still a total niche sport for those who can't cut it in main diving events, but I'll freely admit that beach vball took off. Heck, it's a fun sport. But I'd argue that it took off in large part because of it's Olympic exposure.

Do try to have some historical perspective, OK?

Most Federations of established sports have around 200 members, usually.

They do after they've been in the Olympics for 16 years. My standard is what they had before being adding to the Olympics. Shouldn't that be a signficant criterion?

I know that because had to look this up once because I had an arguement with termite about the fact that the sports Australians usually excel at are the sports played by very few other countries, Cricket and Rugby, and therefore not their success is not quite the achievement they like to pretend it is.

Oh, I agree. But again, I'd say what were the criteria for adding the sport before it was beamed into 3 billion homes worldwide? Post hoc is kind of skewed, wouldn;t you say?


A federation with only 46 members suggests to me a sport with very limited international appeal.

What were synchro and bvball before being added to the Olympics? That is the only reasonable metric. Fact is, neither even HAS it's own federation. I think that says volumes. :rolleyes:

Even the ICC, the international governing body of cricket - cricket - has a 106 members, and that sport is basically only played seriously in a few Commonwealth nations.

But a) it's been an Olympic sport for how long? and b) the Brits, who spread cricket, once ruled half of the world.

If a sport is in the Olympics, every wealthy nation, any many non-wealthy nations, will put together teams and committees to get into the competition. Look at guys from various African countries who have showed up to swim, or ski. Do you remember the African cross-country skiier from the last Olympics? He barely finished, but the winner waited for him to shake his hand. Beautiful! Do you remember the African guy who trained for some swimming event in a local hotel pool that was like a 5th of Olympic length? Every other racer was out of the pool by the time he finished.

So once a sport is in the Olympics, it becomes popular. but shouldn't the criteria for entry of new sports be based on popularity, at least in part? If that were the case, ultimate soundly thrashed bvball in the early 90s, and synchro wasn't even on the map (FYI, only major facilities have paired high platforms--there just ain't room in most, and it's too expensive)

Here's the Ultimate teams listed on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ultimate_teams

As you can see, there's over 50 notable teams listed for the US and Canada, and 10 for the rest of the world, 6 of which are in the UK. 2 were from Japan, so we can, with justification, say that it is also


That's nice. Let's see. I see one Seattle team there (Sockeye, which I was on for about three months in 1994 before I ruptured a ligament in my ankle).. When I was in Seattle, there were 4 other men's teams (I played on them for years before moving up to sockeye--the ankle injury kept me from playing competitively again), and I understand there are more now. I see Verge is still the women's team, yet there were 3 others when I was there, and more now (my wife played on one of the secondary teams for a few years). Mind you, there are ttraveling clubs, with sponsors and whatnot. Likewise for Portland, Vancouver, and the SF Bay area, all whom I played regularly. And now they have semi-pro and pro club teams, which they didn't even have when I played. This is true nationwide. You are looking at hundreds of semi-pro teams.

This is just a list of teams that regularly make it to the national tournament. It's sort of like judging the popularity of football in the UK by counting the teams in the Premier league.

Now let's look at college. Tell us what the rankings are, Bob.
http://www.upa.org/scores/scores.cgi?page=22&div=18

Ooo! I see over 500 college teams. Impressive! (Yes! My alma mater is still top ranked, like they are every year. :D)


In other words, your metric is ****ed

Let's look at discnw.org, the site for Seattle ultimate:
I see ten leagues. I see 37 teams in one summer league.

So we don't think this is just a regional fluke, let's look at DC: http://www.wafc.org/

I see 7 leagues, with maybe 100 teams. Just in one city.

London:
http://www.londonultimate.com/
Several leagues as well, lots of semi-pro teams.

Oh, and in ultimate you pretty much sprint whenever you are on the field, and there are 7 at a time. Most rec leagues have rosters of about 12-18, club teams often 15-25. That's a lot of bodies. Synchro diving, anyone?

Now, picture in your mind if ultimate had been in the Olympics for the last 16 years. Hmm.

Here's a scoring video of a game between US and Japanese teams.:
Bcrh-fR3XJk

The games would usually take and hour or so, but they're only shoring scoring sequences.

Other sequences from world championships:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0J3IRkXbIY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SQNViVH0UQ

All amateur video, since it is almost never televised. You can see that it is a very athletic, high speed sport, with some high-flying dramatics. Would play great in a stadium with an actual birds-eye view and more than a shaky hand-held camera.

As my wife says about synchro diving and beach volleyball: T+A=$

That's because they let girls play in Amerika without of the studied disinterest that women's football is treated with in the United Kingdom and the rest of the world. It doesn't translated to actual popularity as a professional sport. Are you really gonna try and tell me that soccer is as popular in America is it is in Europe and world wide?

I didn't say that. It is still the #1 youth sport in America. More boys play soccer than any other sport, and FAR more girls. The problem is that Americans like flashy sports on TV, and soccer ain't flash. Plus, the market is saturated for pro sports (baseball, football, basketball and hockey), which strangles soccer. It can't stand a chance at higher levels, and thus the better athletes switch to other sports when they are older. But most healthy kids play youth soccer in America nowadays. Almost everybody my age played as a kid, and the numbers have increased dramatically (I was just this side of the transition age).

When y'all stop habitually calling it "soccer" to stop it being confused with the other football and can put together a world dominating team that your population and riches suggest you should be able to, we will then talk.

What are we talking about? I made no claims that soccer was more popular here than elsewhere. I said that there are as many adult rec ultimate teams in most US cities as soccer teams (in a country with a huge latin, soccer-playing community), and that this is in a country where most kids play soccer. I think that says something. Ultimate has broad appeal in many other countries as well: all of Europe, all of East asia, and the americas.

Can anyone even name offhand, without google, a professional American soccer team?

This is a charming rant, but it has nothing to do with what I posted.

[Steely Glint]

['ear;10615981"]That's very nice. But can you legitimately claim that beach volleyball, which only started getting popular in the late 80s and early 90s (much of it AFTER its exposure in the Olympics), enjoys the same popularity as normal volleyball, which has been a mainstay of phys ed classes and community rec leagues for 90 years? I think not.

I think beach volleyball is a mainstay of people who go to beaches, myself. There's quite a few of those.

Then why add it? We already had a slew of diving events. Do we really need a slew more of people doing easier dives, but trying to do them in lock step?

Well, since they've got all the stuff out already...

You might as well ask why we include the relays in the athletics program.

FYI, in geographical terms the Americas are generally considered to be a separate hemisphere from the other major continents (excluding antarctiva, of course). You know, due to the separation by thousands of miles of ocean?

Whatever. The answers still "yes, I have".

Perhaps because it's not an Olympic sport? Answer truthfully: had you heard of either beach volleyball or synchro diving before they became Olympic sports? In fact, I'd wager that nobody in CC had except perhaps the Ogre types who are Vball junkies.

Yes, of course I had.

Yup, the Olympics create their own critical mass, don't they?

Not really. You overestimating the olympic effect here. They're only every four years.

But wouldn't you rather see a cool different sport than "more of the same?"

Not especially. I think we should have less olympic sports, not more. I think the olympics should be about individual sports, and it should be about sports which emphasis physicality over technical proficiency. But the problem is that the presitge of the olympics means that this would be seen as a slight against sports which were removed from the program, which is undeserved.

Synchro is still a total niche sport for those who can't cut it in main diving events, but I'll freely admit that beach vball took off.

That's why sychronised divers usually compete in the individual events and vice versa, amirite.

They do after they've been in the Olympics for 16 years. My standard is what they had before being adding to the Olympics. Shouldn't that be a signficant criterion?

No, because you overstate the effect the Olympics has on the popularity of a sport.

What were synchro and bvball before being added to the Olympics? That is the only reasonable metric. Fact is, neither even HAS it's own federation. I think that says volumes. :rolleyes:

Swimming doesn't have it's own federation either. I suppose that means Ultimate is moar popular than swimming?

But a) it's been an Olympic sport for how long? and b) the Brits, who spread cricket, once ruled half of the world.

a) 0 years.
b) And American culture never spreads anywhere, of course.

If a sport is in the Olympics, every wealthy nation, any many non-wealthy nations, will put together teams and committees to get into the competition. Look at guys from various African countries who have showed up to swim, or ski. Do you remember the African cross-country skiier from the last Olympics? He barely finished, but the winner waited for him to shake his hand. Beautiful! Do you remember the African guy who trained for some swimming event in a local hotel pool that was like a 5th of Olympic length? Every other racer was out of the pool by the time he finished.

Yes, it's true that most of the members of a given international federation don't actually compete in the sport beyond a trivial level. 100 or so members of the Cricket or Rugby federation only actually translates into 20 or so nations where the sport is actually popular. And the 46 nations that are members of the Ultimate federation are translates into what, a less than 10 nations where the sport is actually played on a regular basis by anyone?

So once a sport is in the Olympics, it becomes popular. but shouldn't the criteria for entry of new sports be based on popularity, at least in part? If that were the case, ultimate soundly thrashed bvball in the early 90s, and synchro wasn't even on the map (FYI, only major facilities have paired high platforms--there just ain't room in most, and it's too expensive)


A criteria should also be international penetration. NFL, for example, probably has more fans and players than a lot of minor olympic sports but since virtually all of them are in America, it is not and should be an olympic sport.

This is true nationwide. You are looking at hundreds of semi-pro teams.

There we go with the 'nationwide' again. What you're looking for is 'worldwide'.

This is just a list of teams that regularly make it to the national tournament. It's sort of like judging the popularity of football in the UK by counting the teams in the Premier league.

Now let's look at college. Tell us what the rankings are, Bob.
http://www.upa.org/scores/scores.cgi?page=22&div=18

Ooo! I see over 500 college teams. Impressive! (Yes! My alma mater is still top ranked, like they are every year. :D)


You're missing the point, wildly. Again. The point wasn't the number of teams when it was obviously a selective list of the most notable teams. Rather, the point was the ratio between American and Candian teams and teams from other nations. With maybe a 100 odd American teams on that list and 10 international ones, it tells me that the sport has virtually no popularity outside of North America.

In other words, your metric is ****ed

No, yours is. I'm rather surprised you're having a hard time grasping this "America is not the world" thing. I know it's common with most Americas, but your comments on other subjects led me to believe you knew better :o

Let's look at discnw.org, the site for Seattle ultimate:
I see ten leagues. I see 37 teams in one summer league.

Seattle isn't the world either.

So we don't think this is just a regional fluke, let's look at DC: http://www.wafc.org/

Also not the world.

London:
http://www.londonultimate.com/
Several leagues as well, lots of semi-pro teams.

30 or so.

Now, picture in your mind if ultimate had been in the Olympics for the last 16 years. Hmm.[quote]

*shuts eyes*

I'm not seeing it being that much different. As I said, the olympics are only every four years and most othe sports don't actually get very much coverage.

[quote]Other sequences from world championships:

And how many teams competed in the world championships?

[']['ear]

I think beach volleyball is a mainstay of people who go to beaches, myself. There's quite a few of those.

Cool! Now sunbathing can be in the Olympics. And that stupid beach ping pong game! And boogie boarding! And sand castles!!!

Well, since they've got all the stuff out already...

I suspect that was a large part of it, though I noted that only really major facilities have paired platforms.

You might as well ask why we include the relays in the athletics program.

You mean track? Probably for the same reason. I think of that as inflation too, but it happened so long ago it's pointless to care about it. Fact is, inflationary expansions eventually become dogma. Bvball and synchro have already done so, and had ultimate started in 1992, you could be defending its legitimacy to somebody else. You've got a lot of circular thinking going in your posts.

Whatever. The answers still "yes, I have".

Actually, you were wildly off on Seattle people. Still baffled about where you got that.

Not really. You overestimating the olympic effect here. They're only every four years.

I disagree. They are the kiss of legitimacy that trickles down throughout the world. The amount of money involved in unparalleled. Fact is, bvball is a perfect example. It was almost never televised before the Olympics, and that started it to where it is now.

Not especially. I think we should have less olympic sports, not more. I think the olympics should be about individual sports, and it should be about sports which emphasis physicality over technical proficiency.

Spoken like a true track guy. Thinks that all sports should be measured with hundredths of a second, or millimeters.

But the problem is that the presitge of the olympics means that this would be seen as a slight against sports which were removed from the program, which is undeserved.

Curling, for example? Agreed. I'd also say synchro diving fits this.


That's why sychronised divers usually compete in the individual events and vice versa, amirite.


Do they? I thought most of them were NOT. Much different focus, after all. Not technical aptitude, but instead reproduciblity.

No, because you overstate the effect the Olympics has on the popularity of a sport.

I disagree. I think it's what put beach volleyball on the map. Certainly I've seen commentary to that effect in the part. Karch Kiraly, IIRC, popularized the sport in the 92, 96 (if my memory serves).

Swimming doesn't have it's own federation either. I suppose that means Ultimate is moar popular than swimming?

But you can't make any conclusions about synchro's popularity if they are under a big umbrella organization, can you?

And while I can't prove it, I bet more people play ultimate competitively worldwide than swimming. Many learn, but few compete in swimming. Plus, it's an extremely expensive sport.

a) 0 years.

Then it should be one. Probably isn't because it takes forever, I'd guess.


b) And American culture never spreads anywhere, of course.

Other than basketball, whose international spread is fairly recent, not in sports.

Yes, it's true that most of the members of a given international federation don't actually compete in the sport beyond a trivial level. 100 or so members of the Cricket or Rugby federation only actually translates into 20 or so nations where the sport is actually popular. And the 46 nations that are members of the Ultimate federation are translates into what, a less than 10 nations where the sport is actually played on a regular basis by anyone?

I understand that it is played widely in industrialized nations. That seems to be the breakdown for some reason, can't say why.

Synchro diving? Far, far less, I'd guess.

A criteria should also be international penetration. NFL, for example, probably has more fans and players than a lot of minor olympic sports but since virtually all of them are in America, it is not and should be an olympic sport.

Agreed.

There we go with the 'nationwide' again. What you're looking for is 'worldwide'.

I'm not a polyglot. It's hard to track down the sites. The fact is that the best teams from other countries usually compete closely with the best from the US and Canada.

You're missing the point, wildly. Again. The point wasn't the number of teams when it was obviously a selective list of the most notable teams. Rather, the point was the ratio between American and Candian teams and teams from other nations. With maybe a 100 odd American teams on that list and 10 international ones, it tells me that the sport has virtually no popularity outside of North America.

See above.

No, yours is. I'm rather surprised you're having a hard time grasping this "America is not the world" thing. I know it's common with most Americas, but your comments on other subjects led me to believe you knew better :o

Feeling condescending?

I get that. I believe it is quite widespread in the developed world. In the early 90s, I'd bet it way outstripped bvball, which was a truly US-centric sport.

*shuts eyes*

I'm not seeing it being that much different. As I said, the olympics are only every four years and most othe sports don't actually get very much coverage.

But it was for bvball. What I've read about it is that its current ascendancy is due to its Olympic exposure.

And how many teams competed in the world championships?


15-20 range.

http://www.wugc2008.com/teams

[Echovirus]

['ear;10616623"]You mean track?
No, the swimming relays such as the 4x200m.

Other than basketball, whose international spread is fairly recent, not in sports.
Does softball ring a bell? You know, the ball-and-stick game invented in Chicago with an international governing body containing 127 member countries.

[Steely Glint]

['ear;10616623"]Cool! Now sunbathing can be in the Olympics. And that stupid beach ping pong game! And boogie boarding! And sand castles!!!

Well, why not? Since you're so insistant on the popularity metric.

I suspect that was a large part of it, though I noted that only really major facilities have paired platforms.

Olympic facitlities tend to be fairly major.

You mean track? Probably for the same reason. I think of that as inflation too, but it happened so long ago it's pointless to care about it. Fact is, inflationary expansions eventually become dogma. Bvball and synchro have already done so, and had ultimate started in 1992, you could be defending its legitimacy to somebody else. You've got a lot of circular thinking going in your posts.

Relays aren't inflation, they've been park of athletics track and field for as long as the sport has existed in it's modern form. I was just using the example to illustrate the difference between a sport and an event in a sport. Do you think that diving shouldn't be part of the olympics? If diving, then why not sychronised diving?

Actually, you were wildly off on Seattle people. Still baffled about where you got that.

Sterotypes amuse me.

I disagree. They are the kiss of legitimacy that trickles down throughout the world. The amount of money involved in unparalleled. Fact is, bvball is a perfect example. It was almost never televised before the Olympics, and that started it to where it is now.

I'd say the fact that beach volleyball and other, smaller sports get televised these days are at least as much to do with the fact we now have dedicated sports channels with hours of space to fill.

Spoken like a true track guy. Thinks that all sports should be measured with hundredths of a second, or millimeters.

No, because gymnastics is part of and will always be part of the olympics, but the judging is highly subjective. It's just a personal preference about what the Olympics should be about, individual performances, and immense athletic talent. It doesn't keep me awake at night or anything. I don't think all sports should be like anything.

Do they? I thought most of them were NOT. Much different focus, after all. Not technical aptitude, but instead reproduciblity.

uhm, technical aptitude and reproducability are necessary for both individual and synchronised diving.

I disagree. I think it's what put beach volleyball on the map. Certainly I've seen commentary to that effect in the part. Karch Kiraly, IIRC, popularized the sport in the 92, 96 (if my memory serves).

I think what put beach volleyball on the map is the fact that

a) volleyball already exists, playing it on the beach is not exactly a huge streach.
b) The controversy over the uniforms.

But you can't make any conclusions about synchro's popularity if they are under a big umbrella organization, can you?

Yes, albeit provisional ones.

And while I can't prove it, I bet more people play ultimate competitively worldwide than swimming. Many learn, but few compete in swimming. Plus, it's an extremely expensive sport.

I know or have known maybe four or five people who swam competitively. Compared to the 0 ultimate frisbee players I know.

Then it should be one. Probably isn't because it takes forever, I'd guess.

It was in 1900, actually, but it's not anymore. I don't know what criteria the IOC actually uses to pick sports, but presumably the fact that not many nations play cricket counts against it. All the average game of cricket takes abut 100 years to play.

Other than basketball, whose international spread is fairly recent, not in sports.

Well, you do play such weird ones.

I understand that it is played widely in industrialized nations. That seems to be the breakdown for some reason, can't say why.

It's hard to track down the sites.

What does that tell you?

I get that. I believe it is quite widespread in the developed world. In the early 90s, I'd bet it way outstripped bvball, which was a truly US-centric sport.

How come I've never heard of it?

15-20 range.

pfft

[littlelolligagged]

Volleyball in general has replaced softball as what middle-aged professionals do in large groups with their coworkers (and neighbors) as a bonding activity. It's a lot less dangerous.

I would say that volleyball is a lot more fun to play than it is to watch, and the extended coverage we are stuck with that involves every minute of every match is something I could do without.

Why was Tear PMSing over this again?

[']['ear]

Why was Tear PMSing over this again?

My dear, I don't believe you are allowed to say that of anybody else. :o

I am pissed off that ultimate was not made an olympic sport back in 1992, which the much less-player beach volleyball was. Synchronized diving is even more baffling.

[Loki]

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=ap-gym--underagechinese&prov=ap&type=lgns

Oops. :noob:

[littlelolligagged]

This was announced before the Olympics began (that some of the girls might be underage, as reported by a Chinese news source previously) and you are only just finding out, Loki?

[Loki]

This was announced before the Olympics began (that some of the girls might be underage, as reported by a Chinese news source previously) and you are only just finding out, Loki?

Oh, I could tell at least one of the girls was 12 or so. But there was no concrete evidence I believe.

[']['ear]

Yes, this has been mentioned several times.

Just another type of human rights abuse, really.

original story I saw:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/sports/olympics/27gymnasts.html?scp=8&sq=olympics%20china%20underage&st=cse


An interesting editorial:
http://www2.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/sports/olympics/13araton.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=olympics%20china%20underage&st=cse&oref=slogin

Another issue is one from previous years: That gymnasts from totalitarian countries were starved, and in some cases fed hormone inhibitors to stunt their growth. Never proven, of course.

[Loki]

['ear;10616957"]Yes, this has been mentioned several times.

Just another type of human rights abuse, really.

original story I saw:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/sports/olympics/27gymnasts.html?scp=8&sq=olympics%20china%20underage&st=cse


An interesting editorial:
http://www2.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/sports/olympics/13araton.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=olympics%20china%20underage&st=cse&oref=slogin

Another issue is one from previous years: That gymnasts from totalitarian countries were starved, and in some cases fed hormone inhibitors to stunt their growth. Never proven, of course.

Apparently the kids get taken away from their parents at age 3, don't really get much in the way of an education, and get to see their parents several days a year. :bored: And would anyone really be surprised if there were Chinese laboratories that were dedicated to creating steroids that weren't detected by current tests?

[littlelolligagged]

Apparently the kids get taken away from their parents at age 3, don't really get much in the way of an education, and get to see their parents several days a year. :bored: And would anyone really be surprised if there were Chinese laboratories that were dedicated to creating steroids that weren't detected by current tests?

And their parents get hugely rewarded which is why you keep hearing these stories where the kids want to quit and the parents won't let them. Huge honor for the parents and all. I'm actually more appalled by the parents than by the state.

[Loki]

And their parents get hugely rewarded which is why you keep hearing these stories where the kids want to quit and the parents won't let them. Huge honor for the parents and all. I'm actually more appalled by the parents than by the state.

CNN showed some former Olympian who's living in a tiny apartment with her mother in the middle of nowhere, and lives on welfare benefits (of $33 a month). She also has severe diabetes, and her coaches never gave a damn about it.

[littlelolligagged]

CNN showed some former Olympian who's living in a tiny apartment with her mother in the middle of nowhere, and lives on welfare benefits (of $33 a month). She also has severe diabetes, and her coaches never gave a damn about it.

I heard two separate stories on NBC where the gymnasts wanted out and were apparently being allowed to do so and their parents pressured them to stay.

Please don't mistake this for me thinking they have a good system. I don't, I believe it is horrid. I just don't think you can only blame the government for this.

[Loki]

I heard two separate stories on NBC where the gymnasts wanted out and were apparently being allowed to do so and their parents pressured them to stay.

Please don't mistake this for me thinking they have a good system. I don't, I believe it is horrid. I just don't think you can only blame the government for this.

Well these people finish their "careers" by the age of 18. Their health isn't going to be very good. They have no skills that could get them a decent job. Even if their parents were given money before, what are they going to do after they "retire" as an athlete? This is just like all the Soviet athletes, who were treated like heroes as long as they competed, and thrown by the wayside as soon as they retired.

[Nessus]

What the **** Tear? Finish what you started, do another point-by-point with Steely :mad: The dogs of war don't capitulate!

[Nessus]

We shall fight on the seas and oceans :mad:

[Steely Glint]

arrgh, put the sprints on you ****s.

[RoyT]

MASSIVE QUOTING! :mad:

[RandBlade]

Good day for Britain today, 4 Gold's! :D

Just seen this link, how ludicrous: http://www.nbcolympics.com/medals/index.html

What an amazing piece of spin, to rank by total medal's in order to put the USA in first rather than second :rolleyes:. The Olympics are about being the best in the world, hence why the table is always normally ranked by Gold, then Silver, then Bronze, not total like they're all equivalent. China's 11 Gold lead trumps the Americans having 14 extra Bronze :rolleyes:

[termite]

I have a Mongolian guy working for me, he was so happy when he heard one of his countrymen won a medal.

It was kinda refreshing to see from a different perspective - his country had never won a gold medal before - though a few bronze and silvers, this was a real break through which actually lifted his mood at work all day.

When we win another medal I can't help think "Oh that's nice" and forget about it and move on.

[RandBlade]

Yeah, I saw some athlete from somewhere like Togo whose nation had never won any medal ever before, he was in the Kayaking I believe and was going last (our guy was already out of contention for the medal) at one point looked like he could get Gold, the BBC commentators were rather cheering him on, but he 'failed' towards the end and 'only' got Bronze . . . but I have never seen anyone get so ecstatic ever to win a medal.

It was a Bronze 'only', he could have had Gold or Silver, but it was a medal and the first medal ever for his entire nation and he was clearly ecstatic - and no doubt will now be a hero back home :)

Its nice to see things like that.

[Steely Glint]

9.69, *****es.

[RandBlade]

Lets see if we can now have a 100m champion who's not a drugs cheat and doesn't fail a test down the road though.

[Steely Glint]

He's not built like he's on anything.

[littlelolligagged]

Yeah, I saw some athlete from somewhere like Togo whose nation had never won any medal ever before, he was in the Kayaking I believe and was going last (our guy was already out of contention for the medal) at one point looked like he could get Gold, the BBC commentators were rather cheering him on, but he 'failed' towards the end and 'only' got Bronze . . . but I have never seen anyone get so ecstatic ever to win a medal.

It was a Bronze 'only', he could have had Gold or Silver, but it was a medal and the first medal ever for his entire nation and he was clearly ecstatic - and no doubt will now be a hero back home :)

Its nice to see things like that.

I saw that too - the NBC commentators were also cheering him on. They didn't say anything about "only" regarding his medal, though.

[']['ear]

What the **** Tear? Finish what you started, do another point-by-point with Steely :mad: The dogs of war don't capitulate!

Nah, it's just a Don Quixote thing.

I actually consider synchro diving and bvball very different. The former is pure and unadulterated Olympic inflation. More air time=more advertising dollars. The latter is a fun sport to watch, and a interesting variant of another fun sport. My main gripe is that ultimate was played more widely that bvball (yes, even internationally) at on organized level back in the late 80/early 90s, but failed to get into the Olympics. My belief has always been that it was because of the piss-poor skills of the ultimate governing body: a bunch of hippie dip-****s at the time (since I haven't played since 97, I can't know what it's like now). Bvball, on the other hand, was extremely well organized and promoted. The consequences are what we see today.

Ultimate would have been an awesome Olympic sport, and if bvball was worthy back then, so was ultimate. Now I suspect that ultimate will never make it, and its window of opportunity has closed.

Yeah, I saw some athlete from somewhere like Togo whose nation had never won any medal ever before, he was in the Kayaking I believe and was going last (our guy was already out of contention for the medal) at one point looked like he could get Gold, the BBC commentators were rather cheering him on, but he 'failed' towards the end and 'only' got Bronze . . . but I have never seen anyone get so ecstatic ever to win a medal.

It was a Bronze 'only', he could have had Gold or Silver, but it was a medal and the first medal ever for his entire nation and he was clearly ecstatic - and no doubt will now be a hero back home :)

Its nice to see things like that.

To me, that's the best part of the Olympics. The Brazilian guy who won the 50m freestyle last night was flipping out in the pool, and then started crying. To me, that kind of emotional high is the best part of sport. Michael Phelps notching up another gold doesn't do crap for me. Yeah, he's a dominant swimmer (and that race was very dramatic), but he's doing at a time when everybody has endorsements and most countries support their athletes with huge training camps, stipends and expertise. There was something more pure about Mark Spitz doing it in 1972 when none of the crap was in place. Sort of like the amateur US hockey team beating the pro Soviets. Those (and the guy from Togo) are the miracles of sport, not Michael Phelps.

Plus, the nationalism of the games, and the unabashed bias of the American announcers, always sickens me. Seems worse each Olympics I watch, but maybe it's just me.

[']['ear]

Swedish wrestler stripped of bronze medal (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/wrestling/news;_ylt=AnYqT8OwoSZQsfB6IHFWBACVTZd4?slug=ap-wre-medalstripped&prov=ap&type=lgns)

By STEPHEN WILSON, AP Sports Writer 8 hours, 22 minutes ago

BEIJING (AP)—A Swedish wrestler was disqualified and stripped of his bronze medal Saturday for dropping the prize in protest after a disputed loss at the Beijing Olympics.

Ara Abrahamian was punished by the International Olympic Committee for violating the spirit of fair play during the medal ceremony, becoming the fourth athlete kicked out of the games and bringing the number of medals removed to three.

Abrahamian became incensed when a disputed penalty call decided his semifinal match against Italian Andrea Minguzzi, who went on to win the gold medal in the Greco-Roman 84-kilogram division Thursday.

During the medal ceremony, the Armenian-born Abrahamian—who also lost a 2004 Olympic semifinal match on a disputed call—took the bronze from around his neck and, angrily, dropped it on the mat as he walked away. He did not take part in the rest of the medal ceremony.

The IOC executive board ruled Abrahamian’s actions amounted to a political demonstration and a mark of disrespect to his fellow athletes.

“It was felt that his behavior on the medal podium and during the medal ceremony was not appropriate,” IOC spokeswoman Giselle Davies said. “His behavior was not in the Olympic spirit of respect for his fellow athletes. Whatever grievances you may have, this was not the way to go about it.”

The IOC said no athlete will receive Abrahamian’s medal because his disqualification was not connected to the competition itself, meaning there will be only one bronze medalist, Nazmi Avluca of Turkey. Normally, there are two at each weight class.

The 28-year-old Abrahamian had to be restrained from going after matside officials following his loss to Minguzzi. He stormed away from the area where interviews are conducted and slammed a door to the dressing rooms so hard it shook an entire wall. He weighed whether to skip the bronze medal match, only to have friends talk him into competing.

The IOC said Abrahamian violated two rules of the Olympic charter, one which bans any sort of demonstrations and another which demands respect for all Olympic athletes.

“The awards ceremony is a highly symbolic ritual, acknowledged as such by all athletes and other participants,” the IOC said. “Any disruption by any athlete, in particular a medalist, is in itself an insult to the other athletes and to the Olympic Movement. It is also contrary to the spirit of fair play.”

Abrahamian never expressed regret or offered an apology, the IOC said. The international wrestling federation was asked to consider any further sanctions against the two-time world champion.

His medal was the third stripped at the Beijing Games so far.

On Friday, North Korean shooter Kim Jong Su had his silver and bronze medals taken away after failing a doping test. Also expelled for doping violations have been Spanish cyclist Maria Isabel Moreno and Vietnamese gymnast Thi Ngan Thuong Do.

Abrahamian’s case is not the first of its kind.

A weightlifter at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics was stripped of his bronze medal after rejecting it during the medal ceremony. Ibragim Samadov, competing in the light heavyweight category for the Unified Team of the former Soviet Union, was upset with his performance and refused to have the medal placed around his neck and only accepted it in his hand. He then put it down and walked off.

Samadov later apologized, but the IOC decision upheld its decision to disqualify him. He later was banned for life by the sport’s governing body.

AP Sports Writer Alan Robinson contributed to this report.

Hmm, this kind of bugs me. You can be stripped of your medal for a temper tantrum, but China has underaged performers and there's not a ripple?

It makes me wonder even more about how much this is driven by ratings.

[Loki]

Or how much control China has over the judges.

[Rageaholic]

['ear;10621727"]Hmm, this kind of bugs me. You can be stripped of your medal for a temper tantrum, but China has underaged performers and there's not a ripple?

Sorry if I missed it previously in this thread, but has this actually been proven? It wouldn't surprise me at all if it were true, but last I heard the Chinese had the proper documents (which could of course be falsified)... But if the other countries are so sure about there being foul play, why aren't they making a bigger fuss? Or is it a case where the IOC is putting its head in the sand so as not to "offend the hosts"?

[Loki]

Sorry if I missed it previously in this thread, but has this actually been proven? It wouldn't surprise me at all if it were true, but last I heard the Chinese had the proper documents (which could of course be falsified)... But if the other countries are so sure about there being foul play, why aren't they making a bigger fuss? Or is it a case where the IOC is putting its head in the sand so as not to "offend the hosts"?

A Chinese paper wrote that one of the girls was 13 about 9 months ago. It then promptly took down the story.

[Rageaholic]

Ah... So the IOC is turning a blind eye then?

[littlelolligagged]

Ah... So the IOC is turning a blind eye then?

No, the girls have the proper documents. That's as far as the IOC can take it - and the other countries are not all worked up over it.

[Loki]

Ah... So the IOC is turning a blind eye then?

Did you see the judging in the gymnastics competitions? It looks like half the judges are in China's pocket.

[Rageaholic]

Did you see the judging in the gymnastics competitions? It looks like half the judges are in China's pocket.

That's the thing I don't like about sports that are judged... There's always room to interpret things differently (or for people to be bought, as the case may be). It's not just gymnastics either... If you watch diving it's not uncommon to see one judge give a 6.5 while another gives a 9.5.

I like races... There's no arguing with Omega. :)

[-LiLDaReDeViL5-]

Hey France: Did you see the 4x100m race?
No? Let me tell you all about it!
You LOST! Ha ha! You dominated the whole race then choked it up to lose by 1/100 of a second!
Smell that France? No wait! You can't! That's the smell of victory!
Call me a stupid bragging American,but I will wear that name proudly! They talked smack,now have to deal with it coming back at them.Ha ha! Gold!

*Apologies for delayed bragging.I was on vacation without a computer.I did,however watch that great 4x100 race.Ha ha!

[LightGrenades]

No, the girls have the proper documents. That's as far as the IOC can take it - and the other countries are not all worked up over it.

Man it must be great to live in a country that would give you an authentic fake ID.

*sigh*

[littlelolligagged]

Man it must be great to live in a country that would give you an authentic fake ID.

*sigh*
:haha: That was my first thought, too.

[-LiLDaReDeViL5-]

I was very upset with the Chinese gymnasts taking gold.No way are they 16.
I did however enjoy watching.Shawn Johnson is one hot little thing :p

Phelps is beast.I think he lives in the aquariam.

[RandBlade]

Good on Paula Radcliffe finishing the marathon, I watched the last half of it and she was in absolute agony clearly. Its a shame she's never got an Olympic gold, she deserves one, but after her run of injuries to come back and complete the 26 miles is impressive alone :heart:

[GGT]

I dunno, Dana Torres rather blew me away, even more than Phelps.

No "rigging" involved.


also, that little German woman in gymnastics who is in her 30s

[Echovirus]

9.69, *****es.
I'm hoping to catch it on the replay tonight.

Edit: Took three damn hours, but finally got to see it. That was insane. I can't wait to see him in the 200m.

[RandBlade]

Amusing, especially since I first heard this suggested a few days ago by an American:

The Other Medal Table

1 China 29 13 9 51
2 Great Britain 11 5 7 23
3 USA 10 19 22 51
4 Germany 9 5 6 20
5 Australia 8 10 11 29
6 Phelps 8 0 0 8
7 South Korea 7 9 4 20
8 Japan 7 5 6 18

[Echovirus]

The NYT amused me with this one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/sports/olympics/17swim.html

How fabulous was Phelps’s feat? At Sunday’s start, the Person’s Republic of Michael would have ranked fourth in gold medals and been ahead of all but 14 countries in the medal count.

[']['ear]

Well, Phelps is truly one of the greatest athletes ever. That said, I still feel that Spitz's fete was somehow greater. It came at a time when you had to find your own coach, or coach yourself, no high-tech suits, no modern training techniques or diets, and no money to speak of (at least not in the West). There's a purity there that no longer exists. I don't have the illusion that it was ever perfect, but it was certainly better than it is now.

[Loki]

['ear;10623663"]Well, Phelps is truly one of the greatest athletes ever. That said, I still feel that Spitz's fete was somehow greater. It came at a time when you had to find your own coach, or coach yourself, no high-tech suits, no modern training techniques or diets, and no money to speak of (at least not in the West). There's a purity there that no longer exists. I don't have the illusion that it was ever perfect, but it was certainly better than it is now.

You're making it sound like Phelps' competitors didn't have the same advantages. If anything, this makes his feat all the more difficult, since there's an even playing field. When Spitz was around, I have no doubt that he had better access to training facilities than a vast majority of the people he competed against.

[']['ear]

Really? Communist countries will still raising little athletes from age 3, and the US did virtually nothing to help its athletes (much in contrast to what it does now).

So I look at it the opposite way. The USOC and other Western coutnries used to have this idealistic view of Olympic sport as pure and amateur, while the Communist countries were essentially paying their Olympic athletes as professionals. So if anything, the "playing field" was tilted against American athletes back then. Granted, other Western countries were on pretty much the same footing.

What, you don't remember the first "Dream Team" in basketball? That was the first time the US allowed pros bball players into the Olympics. Before that, it was all collegians or guys who had never been paid to play, vs. state-sponsored athletes from the East.


Granted, Spitz was on a level playing field with the Western half of the world, but not the easteern.

[Loki]

['ear;10623696"]Really? Communist countries will still raising little athletes from age 3, and the US did virtually nothing to help its athletes (much in contrast to what it does now).

So I look at it the opposite way. The USOC and other Western coutnries used to have this idealistic view of Olympic sport as pure and amateur, while the Communist countries were essentially paying their Olympic athletes as professionals. So if anything, the "playing field" was tilted against American athletes back then. Granted, other Western countries were on pretty much the same footing.

What, you don't remember the first "Dream Team" in basketball? That was the first time the US allowed pros bball players into the Olympics. Before that, it was all collegians or guys who had never been paid to play, vs. state-sponsored athletes from the East.

Granted, Spitz was on a level playing field with the Western half of the world, but not the easteern.

The communist countries were never good at swimming. In fact, the US won 75% of the gold medals in swimming in '68.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swimming_at_the_1968_Summer_Olympics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swimming_at_the_1972_Summer_Olympics

So what makes Spitz stand out other than the fact that he swam in more races? Americans literally had no competition, and I would imagine a lot of it had to do with access to training facilities. Swimming was just not an area the communist countries focused on.

[']['ear]

Hmm, maybe you're right. I didn't know that Americans had that much medal dominance in swimming back then.

[oldmunchkin]

One big difference I have seen with Phelps as compared to Spitz is...Spitz only had one race per day, allowing overnight to rest, whereas Phelps had more than one race almost every day. One of those day, he had a whopping 30~ minutes between races.

I do agree that for years Western countries were at a huge disadvantage against those who "paid" for their athletes. I heard some of the Chinese athletes families are "paid" for their kids, and only allowed to see the kids 2 or 3 times per year. :confused:

[Lewkowski]

So I look at it the opposite way. The USOC and other Western coutnries used to have this idealistic view of Olympic sport as pure and amateur, while the Communist countries were essentially paying their Olympic athletes as professionals

Boggles my mind that people consider things to be "pure" because they are not paid.

[GoliathFan45]

Go Michael Phelps

[Echovirus]

Go Michael Phelps
You're a bit late. His last event was last night.

[']['ear]

A Chinese paper wrote that one of the girls was 13 about 9 months ago. It then promptly took down the story.

IIRC it went deeper than just a newspaper article.

Boggles my mind that people consider things to be "pure" because they are not paid.

Why? Because that would mean they were doing it purely out of the love of sport and competition versus love of lucre? Remember, there was far less media exposure back then as well, so "fame" was probably less of a factor as well.

Just can't stand to have anybody insinuate anything bad about money can you? I wonder whether Jesus worshipped money like you do.

[Loki]

['ear;10625393"]Why? Because that would mean they were doing it purely out of the love of sport and competition versus love of lucre? Remember, there was far less media exposure back then as well, so "fame" was probably less of a factor as well.

Just can't stand to have anybody insinuate anything bad about money can you? I wonder whether Jesus worshipped money like you do.

I'm pretty sure far more people (as percentage of the population) watched the Olympics back then simply because there was nothing else to watch. It's the same reason that the nightly news broadcasts had insanely high ratings by today's standards. And considering that most of today's dominant team sports weren't all that popular back then, I would think that Olympic stars were pretty famous.

[']['ear]

Oh, agreed. But I wasn't talking about broadcasts, but the athletes themselves. Even those who won gold medals often resumed lives of obscurity and often mediocre jobs (exceptions obviously for the tippy-top ones like Spitz).

There really was nothing else to do it for but love of the sport. I unabashedly find that more pure than "I'm going to do it for profit."

Lewk is in effect saying that profit is of equal importance to love. I beg to differ.

[Loki]

['ear;10625424"]Oh, agreed. But I wasn't talking about broadcasts, but the athletes themselves. Even those who won gold medals often resumed lives of obscurity and often mediocre jobs (exceptions obviously for the tippy-top ones like Spitz).

There really was nothing else to do it for but love of the sport. I unabashedly find that more pure than "I'm going to do it for profit."

Lewk is in effect saying that profit is of equal importance to love. I beg to differ.

Agreed about the jobs (this was before sponsorships after all), but I think they would still be pretty famous. A lot of famous athletes ended up doing promos for local businesses, so clearly they had some name recognition.

I think ego always played a huge role in sport. You simply can't compete on an Olympic level unless you want to prove to everyone that you're the best at whatever it is you do. I think the same is largely true today. You won't find too many athletes who do well in their sport if they don't love playing it (even if money is a big consideration). I don't know if you follow hockey, but there was a first overall draft pick named Daigle, who everyone thought would be a great player. But the guy was in it solely for the money; he admitted to not liking the game. Well guess what? The guy didn't have the heart to compete at a high-level for 82 games a year. He burned out quickly.

[']['ear]

Yes, you need ego, but you also need love of the sport, as your story shows.

There are lots of NBA players who fit that bill--they quite once the get the fat contracts. They just rely on their natural size and gifts. The good teams dump those guys, and they collect in the low places in the league. That's why San Antonio is so good every year; at the first sign that a guy doesn't love it and isn't trying, he's gone. The management GETS that, and it's amazing how few teams do.

[Loki]

['ear;10625497"]Yes, you need ego, but you also need love of the sport, as your story shows.

There are lots of NBA players who fit that bill--they quite once the get the fat contracts. They just rely on their natural size and gifts. The good teams dump those guys, and they collect in the low places in the league. That's why San Antonio is so good every year; at the first sign that a guy doesn't love it and isn't trying, he's gone. The management GETS that, and it's amazing how few teams do.

But my point is that a player who doesn't love the game will never be an elite player. It simply takes far too much dedication and effort, and no amount of money is going to be enough for someone who's lacking in the above.

[littlelolligagged]

The 33-year-old gymnast

was

awesome!

:D

[']['ear]

But my point is that a player who doesn't love the game will never be an elite player. It simply takes far too much dedication and effort, and no amount of money is going to be enough for someone who's lacking in the above.

I don't think that "love of sport" is all or nothing. My guess is that back in the day, you had to be obsessed with it to be a top athlete, whereas now there might be plenty of naturally gifted folks who, yeah, are pretty into it. That wouldn't have cut it back in the 70s when people had to work out 6 hours a day every day while holding down a full-time job. I'm convinced that money takes that away. Maybe it's watching the NBA that breeds this cynicism in me.

Inspiring as Dara Torres is, she has 11 people on her staff to prepare her for the Olympics.

[termite]

The 33-year-old gymnast

was

awesome!

:D

Yeah but what was the deal with Anna Pavlova getting a zero from the judges?

[littlelolligagged]

Yeah but what was the deal with Anna Pavlova getting a zero from the judges?

She started too soon.

[termite]

She started too soon.

Man that was harsh.

[littlelolligagged]

Man that was harsh.

It was a good vault, too. I'd guess it was nerves that had her taking off before she got the green light.

They also get penalized for taking too long to start after getting the light, you know.

[termite]

It was a good vault, too. I'd guess it was nerves that had her taking off before she got the green light.

They also get penalized for taking too long to start after getting the light, you know.

The judges were talking on cell phones while they scored the vault - that seemed really suss to me, they should not be communicating with anyone IMO. If they're job is to judge then who do they need to call and why?

I felt sorry for her, the judges had all sorts of different times between vaults - some waited forever while others were given the green light very quickly. She seemed somewhere in the middle.

There was an early report that the second vault was too similar to the first but that now appears incorrect.

[-LiLDaReDeViL5-]

Shawn Johnson won silver on the floor finals last night.I felt bad for her.She came soooo close three times to Gold.Last night was awesome.She did great.

And Alicia Sacramore got screwed because the Games were hosted by China.She should have a Silver or Bronze around her neck but she doesn't.Should she have gold? No.Was she better than the girls who Bronze and Silver? Yes.In my opinion,yes.
However,Congrats to Shawn,three silver medals is one heck of an accomplishment.Oh,and Alicia and Nastia too.

USA basketball thrashes Germany 106-57.Smell Gold?

I feel the need to say the name of Mr. Micheal Phelps whenever I say the word "Olympics".Phelps.

[']['ear]

Shawn Johnson won silver on the floor finals last night.I felt bad for her.She came soooo close three times to Gold.Last night was awesome.She did great.She looked hot,too.
And Alicia Sacramore got screwed because the Games were hosted by China.She should have a Silver or Bronze around her neck but she doesn't.
However,Congrats to Shawn,three silver medals is one heck of an accomplishment.Oh,and Alicia and Nastia too.

May I recommend the use of paragraphs? They do wonders to separate distinct themes!

I don't claim enough expertise to say "we wuz robbed" about stuff like that. I think they look at a lot of things that nobody but a serious gymnast would notice.

Two cases in point:
1) I was at a BBQ last night with a guy who was an all-American swimmer in college. We were talking about Phelps' 200m fly finish, and I said that the Serbian guy just coasted into the finish, which lost it for him. This guy said that actually that was the conventional wisdom, and that Phelps was the one who was technically off. He pointed out that because of the time dynamics, it worked for Phelps, but it probably wouldn't 8 times out of 10. And, given the small time increments, you can't possibly consciously decide that. So he basically said that Phelps was just lucky. I would have never known that, even though I did swim team for a couple of years when young.
2) Or consider guitar playing, which I AM fairly good at. A lot of laypeople will say "guy X is an awesome guitar player," and the fact will be that he has some serious weaknesses (technique is the usual shortcoming, since people are impressed by speed). Granted, there's a lot of subjectivity there, but also true for gymnastics, right?

USA basketball thrashes Germany 106-57.Smell Gold?

A little premature, given history.

I think prospects look good for the US, since this is the first squad in several years that actually plays good defense. But the teams they are playing have been struggling, and not just against the US. There are a couple of teams who could take them down. The US hasn't faced a pressure game yet, and will the revert to NBA-style in a close game (poor teamwork and individuals above team?) A really tough defensive squad could throw the US for a loop. And, frankly, there are too many flakes on the US squad for me to be confident. Far more athleticism than the 1992 dream team, but far less sports savvy. This is, of course, the way the NBA has headed.

PS The German team was totally discombobulated this Olympics. That is a greater risk for team sports that draw mostly from pros--they sometimes don't mesh, depending on the coach and roster.

IMO the smartest thing the US did was bring a college coach in. Coach K is one of the best, and college ball demands teamwork, especially on D, where the US has failed in the past.

[-LiLDaReDeViL5-]

Poor Nastia.Screwed out of a gold since the judges must feel the need to let the hometown athelete win.
I and the people at NBC and all gymnast experts agree Nastia had less mistakes the the Chinese girl.Yet,maybe a little home judging was in effect.

[']['ear]

How is this cheating? (other than being un-American, which is always dirty, low-down cheating)

[Echovirus]

Warning! Olympic Result Soiler!
Do not read if you plan on watching the Women's Gymnastics Uneven Bars Finals tonight!
Last night Nastia Liukin
got pretty much screwed out of a Gold medal on the Uneven Bars.Her and a probably cheating Chinese gymnast both recieved an amazing score of 16.725.The Chinese girl won,however,due to the fact that in a tie,the girl with the highest execution score wins,so Nastia lost.I felt awful for her.You'll see tonight how shocked she looks.How many times will we get a medal almost taken away? Shame.

Wrong.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/olympics/2008/writers/em_swift/08/18/judging.controversy/index.html
First tiebreak is the start value. Identical.

Second tiebreak is the deductions taken by the middle four judges. That was also the same.

The third tiebreak -- hang onto your hats, for your brains are about to explode --was the average of the three lowest of the four counting judges' deductions. This is where Liukin lost.

[littlelolligagged]

You seem to have a problem with understanding how the scoring works. Just because you want someone to win doesn't mean they will. Coming in second doesn't equal getting screwed.. I'm sure she did look shocked (haven't watched yet), but as far as I know that is the correct way for dealing with a tie. Shawn Johnson wasn't "screwed" on the floor, the Romanian whose name I have forgotten was better. And Alicia Sacramone's 2nd vault had a much lower start value than the Chinese gymnast you were complaining about. If she had performed later, she might would have gotten a higher execution score, but that's just the luck of the draw. If she had performed later her nerves could have gotten the best of her as well.

From Echo's article:
None of which was going to ruin Liukin's night. "I know I didn't have my best routine, but I had the same exact score as she did, which makes it a little harder to take," she said. "I still don't understand how they broke the tie, but that's the rules, and you just have to play by them. If it had happened in the all around, I would have been a lot more disappointed."

Liukin was also asked if the fact that He was one of the gymnasts suspected of being underage -- in May she was identified in a Chinese newspaper as being just 13 -- made the silver medal harder to swallow. But she wouldn't bite. "She's an excellent athlete no matter how old she is," she said.

She's a lot less petty than you are.

[Rageaholic]

Just got a chance to see a replay of the event in question and I'd like to reiterate that I don't like sports that are judged... The fact that one judge missing the boat can cost someone a gold medal is tough to swallow. But I give Liukin major credit for putting on a brave face.

[RandBlade]

Only in the BBC :rolleyes:

BBC Blogger on Britain's Olympic triumphs asks "are we doing too well" - http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/olympics/2008/08/britains_cycling_succcess_is_i.html

In more positive news, the fantastic Chris Hoy has become the first Briton to win 3 golds in one summer Olympics in a century! We're now on 15 golds and well clear in third place, not bad when the aim was to be about 6th and an "optimistic" aim of fourth by 2012 was set.

[Lor]

**** that, enjoy it while we can i say. If we can't get it from football i'll gladly take any other sports personality doing this country some good. :up:

[littlelolligagged]

Heh, Mr. America Has to Win should be happy, Shawn Johnson got her gold.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/gymnastics/news/newsid=235086.html#johnson+finally+golden+girl

Right at the top of MSNBC's page, it's a good thing I didn't want to keep it from being spoiled.

[']['ear]

You know, the medal count sort of embodies one of the two things I hate most about the Olympics. It's not supposed to be about a national pecking order based on sports, it's supposed to be about nations coming together in peace to celebrate good competition.

Sadly, I think it's what the public wants, and that's what drives it.

[billjames]

I don't know why a Gold medal in badmitten counts the same as boxing

[LittleFuzzy]

I don't know why a Gold medal in badmitten counts the same as boxing

Badminton is more fun to play than boxing is.

[Steely Glint]

And to watch.

[SSJ4goku94]

I'm pretty sure far more people (as percentage of the population) watched the Olympics back then simply because there was nothing else to watch. It's the same reason that the nightly news broadcasts had insanely high ratings by today's standards. And considering that most of today's dominant team sports weren't all that popular back then, I would think that Olympic stars were pretty famous.

i disagree because most people just adapt to the whole jive of the olympics so they acquire a certain passion for supporting certain sports especially their country... i recently became addicted to misty may and keri wlash; beach vollyball team... idk why but i love to watch them play

[']['ear]

Also, let's look how medal counts affect certain countries. Take swimming, diving, or running events. Scads of medals, right? Just different distances (neights), different strokes, different apparatus, not to mention team medals and medleys. In contrast, 1 medal for basketball, 1 medal for soccer, 1 medal for many other significant sports. So countries that excel at events with many medals available clean up, while those excelling at medal-poor sports won't get many.

So it's a totally meaningless competition, not to mention quite contrary to the spirit of the gems. Amiright?

[RandBlade]

['ear;10630369"]Also, let's look how medal counts affect certain countries. Take swimming, diving, or running events. Scads of medals, right? Just different distances (neights), different strokes, different apparatus, not to mention team medals and medleys. In contrast, 1 medal for basketball, 1 medal for soccer, 1 medal for many other significant sports. So countries that excel at events with many medals available clean up, while those excelling at medal-poor sports won't get many.

So it's a totally meaningless competition, not to mention quite contrary to the spirit of the gems. Amiright?No, you're wrong :)

Football, soccer as you call it, is not something people look to the Olympics for. It is the biggest sport in the world and has billions of pounds worldwide in it, the FIFA World Cup, UEFA Cup etc is the pinacle of football, not the Olympics.

Basketball again is a Pro sport that has the attention of things like the NBA etc

Athletics, swimming etc which are medal-rich are also sports that the pinacle of which is the Olympics. It is fair enough to have much more variety in them, that is what really drives the Olympics.

As for nations competing, you really are innocent if you think that goes against the spirit of the Games. Go back into Ancient Greece and you'll see that the major international competitiveness is not an invention of the Modern Olympics.

[']['ear]

No, you're wrong :)

Football, soccer as you call it, is not something people look to the Olympics for. It is the biggest sport in the world and has billions of pounds worldwide in it, the FIFA World Cup, UEFA Cup etc is the pinacle of football, not the Olympics.

OK, fencing then. Volleyball. Even beach volleyball. There are plenty of sports where there are single competions per gender, where there are probably 20 medals per gender in swimming, and even more in TRACK AND FIELD.

Athletics,

Definition: ath·let·ics
Pronunciation:
\ath-ˈle-tiks, ÷ˌa-thə-ˈle-\
Function:
noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Date:
1749

1 : exercises, sports, or games engaged in by athletes 2 : the practice or principles of athletic activities

Really, just because you guys invented the language doesn't mean you can butcher it. :p Though I'll grant you football. Back when I played, we always called it futbal in protest.

swimming etc which are medal-rich are also sports that the pinacle of which is the Olympics. It is fair enough to have much more variety in them, that is what really drives the Olympics.

I'm just saying that the natures of different sports make for few or many medal categories, and naturally some countries have great aptitude in some and not others. Look at the S Koreans in archery, or to a lesser extent the Aussies in swimming. Both countries would be towards the bottom of the list without their single strong suit that happened to be medal-heavy. To me, that makes the medal count fairly meaningless. Doesn't make the competition for any given event meaningless, just that tallying them up reflects in large part chance.

As for nations competing, you really are innocent if you think that goes against the spirit of the Games. Go back into Ancient Greece and you'll see that the major international competitiveness is not an invention of the Modern Olympics.

Perhaps I should have said "professed spirit of the Olympic games?" It most certainly is not SUPPOSED to be about nationalism, even though it obviously is. But if we're going to emphasize the medal count, let's dispense with touchy-feely rhetoric and call it the international pissing match that it really is.

Which is sad, because I don't think that's what it's about for most of the athletes. And this IS about the athletes, isn't it?

[Steely Glint]

Really, just because you guys invented the language doesn't mean you can butcher it. Though I'll grant you football. Back when I played, we always called it futbal in protest.


Everyone else in the world calls it athletics. For example, the French term is athlétisme, Italian is aletica, Spainish is atletismo etc etc And the international government body is the IAAF. I'm afraid "Track and Field" really is just another Americanism.

[Loki]

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/The-REAL-Olympic-medal-count?urn=oly,101537

So a majority of Chinese gold medals have come in events where judges play a big role in determining the winner, while virtually all American gold medals have come in competitions where judges play a minimal role. :bored:

[Steely Glint]

American's really are bitter about this 'behind China in the medal table' business, aren't they? Maybe Tear has a point.

[Steely Glint]

Actually, it's quite interesting.

Much of the Chinese-American Medal gap (olol) comes from Gymnastics. Now, you know who used to be dominant in gymnastics? Eastern Bloc nations.

Who dominants in gymnastics, especially womans gymnastics? Small children, because of their greater flexibily. If you compare the autocratic natures of the Soviet and Chinese governments, they have the capacity to find young children with high flexibility at an early age and put them into the required development programs.

Then there's the chinese national sport - wushu - which is a display martial art which generally involves a lot of spinny kicks and flips, and the chinese propensity for jumpy martial arts in general might suggest there's a genetic predisposition towards the required skillbase in the chinese population, just like west africans dominate sprinting.

[RandBlade]

Or even just a cultural predisposition :)

[Loki]

Or just a disposition towards paying off judges.

[Steely Glint]

That's really pathetic.

[Loki]

The facts speak for themselves. The very fact that the Chinese government willingly provided fake passports to some of its gymnasts should be enough to disqualify the team. And then you have the blatantly paid for judging, with a gymnast who fell on her knees still getting a medal.

[Steely Glint]

I think the facts are that it may soon be necessary to call the waaaahbalance.

[Loki]

Yeah, all the judges are neutral and China has not exerted any political influence on the judges and IOC. :up:

[Steely Glint]

And then you have the blatantly paid for judging, with a gymnast who fell on her knees still getting a medal.

If the gymnast had higher difficulty on their routine it's possible, with the way gymnastics is scored these days, it's possible for a gymnast who does a harder routine imperfectly to beat a gymnast who does an easy routine without any mistakes.

Do you even know how scoring in gymnastics actually works?

[Loki]

If the gymnast had higher difficulty on their routine it's possible, with the way gymnastics is scored these days, it's possible for a gymnast who does a harder routine imperfectly to beat a gymnast who does an easy routine without any mistakes.

Do you even know how scoring in gymnastics actually works?

Yes I do know, and there wasn't sufficient disparity in the difficulty levels of the two vaults.

[littlelolligagged]

If the gymnast had higher difficulty on their routine it's possible, with the way gymnastics is scored these days, it's possible for a gymnast who does a harder routine imperfectly to beat a gymnast who does an easy routine without any mistakes.

Do you even know how scoring in gymnastics actually works?

Thank you, Steely. I was going to go through and explain that, again, then noticed you had already done so.


Uh, Loki, Sacramone's start value was a good deal smaller on her second vault.

[Steely Glint]

There's actually two vaults per competitor, and her score from the first vault was high enough that she'd have won the gold let alone the bronze if it hadn't been for the 0.8 deduction (which is stipulated in the rules of gymnastics, not decided upon on a whim by a judge paid off by the Chinese) for landing on her knees. As it was, that knocked her down to bronze.

Gymnasts have won major competitions before with falls, it's only now that a American missed out on a medal to a chinese women that they've decied that focus on whether or not a gymnast falls and ignore the rest of the routine/competition. Talk about sore losers.

[Nessus]

*gif of a crying eagle*

[Echovirus]

Uh, Loki, Sacramone's start value was a good deal smaller on her second vault.
Indeed. A full seven-tenths lower on the second one, whereas she was only two-tenths lower on the first one.

[Steely Glint]

You gotta love an article which starts out "I don't know anything about gymnastics" then explains why the judges got it wrong and then proceeds to lay out his personal version of the rules in which the American gets a medal.

[littlelolligagged]

But the Americans are supposed to win! Even if someone else deserves it more, the Americans must be first at everything.

[Steely Glint]

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/Sour%20Grapes.jpg

[Nessus]

Also

In before Loki turns this into an anti-Semitism discussion

[Steely Glint]

I bet you don't see any high scores for Israeli gymnasts.

[Nessus]

Why do the Chinks hate kikes so much? Cos they're communists, that's why :mad: MONEY

[Steely Glint]

Those slanty-eyed chinks are just a bunch of goddamn racists.

Yes, I went there. *****es

[Ominous Gamer]

Even 4chan found a reason to watch the games now
http://i34.tinypic.com/20tle7d.jpg

[Echovirus]

I'm sure it's causing pedobears en masse to watch due to the one in the blue being 14. :o

Edit: Nastia's expression in the background looks hilarious.

[Steely Glint]

holy ****

:eek:

[-LiLDaReDeViL5-]

But the Americans are supposed to win! Even if someone else deserves it more, the Americans must be first at everything.
Silly hater! You must mean the Americans are winning.
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-CA391_0811ph_20080811000328.jpg
Getty Images
You tell her Michael.Damn straight.

Heh, Mr. America Has to Win should be happy, Shawn Johnson got her gold.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/gymnastics/news/newsid=235086.html#johnson+finally+golden+girl (http://www.nbcolympics.com/gymnastics/news/newsid=235086.html#johnson+finally+golden+girl)

Right at the top of MSNBC's page, it's a good thing I didn't want to keep it from being spoiled.
http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n390/animatedmidway/235379_m03.jpg

[Ziggy Stardust]

Silly hater! You must mean the Americans are winning.Only if you define "winning" as "being second behind the chinese".

[-LiLDaReDeViL5-]

Only if you define "winning" as "being second behind the chinese".

May I ask where all the anti-America people in this thread (littlelolligagged and Steely) are from?

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm not anti-america. I love America. I'm anti daft people.

And ranking is based on Gold Medals. So, yeah, Americans are really good at finishing second and third.

[Steely Glint]

It is currently 81-79 USA in total count.Thank you.

May I ask where all the anti-America people in this thread (littlelolligagged and Steely) are from?

I ain't anti-American, I'm anti-nationalist retards like you.

[-LiLDaReDeViL5-]

I ain't anti-American, I'm anti-nationalist retards like you.
Thanks.

Michael Phelps.

Damn Straight.Thanks Michael.

[Steely Glint]

Yeah, he's an amazing athlete. Too bad you're not like him and never will be.

[RandBlade]

China is first with 45 gold, America is second with 26 gold.

Don't even try and pretend that having extra bronzes trumps extra golds :rolleyes:

[Ominous Gamer]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/NovaSk/MJ2Za9Vhmclok4zkVRIyx0MC_400.jpg

[littlelolligagged]

May I ask where all the anti-America people in this thread (littlelolligagged and Steely) are from?

Why is that relevant?

Also, how does not thinking the Americans deserve to win just for being Americans and if they don't it was "stolen" from them equal anti-American?

[Rageaholic]

Counting medals to determine which country is "better" is stupid for so many reasons... For one the whole thing of "How many silvers is a gold medal worth?"

For another, certain sports have more events than others. For example, I bet something like a third of China's medals are in diving and gymnastics, while the same can be said for the US and swimming. But there's only one set of medals for basketball, soccer, etc. So is it better to dominate in one or two types of events, or medal in a wide variety of different sports?

Thirdly, population. China has what, four times as many people as the US? So, all things being equal, it's only natural that if they're pulling from a larger talent pool, they should have more great athletes. Nothing wrong with that.

[termite]

-LiLDaReDeViL5- is almost certainly a big fat lazy netnerd that never did any sport and thinks exercise is ripping open a can of soda (after mommy loosened it for him).

Anyone that actually participated in competitive sport would never make such retarded comments as those made by -LiLDaReDeViL5-. Particularly the moronic one about the medal count - success is not 3rd place(bronze), it's good but it ain't success.

I think the real surprise at these games has been the Poms - they're doing exceedingly well. While this is not uncommon for a country that is going to host the next games I just didn't expect them to do quite so well in the athletics.:up:

[RandBlade]

Thanks termite, to me that Poms remark coming from an Aussie means a lot :)

I think there's quite possibly a political discussion that would suit the CC as to why we're doing so surprisingly well, but didn't want to introduce politics into this - after its finished :)

[LittleFuzzy]

Anyone that actually participated in competitive sport would never make such retarded comments as those made by -LiLDaReDeViL5-. Particularly the moronic one about the medal count - success is not 3rd place(bronze), it's good but it ain't success.

Excuse me? And just how does participating in competitive sports make someone immune to stupidity? And how does being a netnerd promote it? Sure, he's a moron, but the above isn't all that less idiotic.

[termite]

Excuse me? And just how does participating in competitive sports make someone immune to stupidity? And how does being a netnerd promote it? Sure, he's a moron, but the above isn't all that less idiotic.

Excuse you but I seriously doubt the stupid comments made by -LiLDaReDeViL5- would ever be made by someone that understands how difficult it is to compete particularly at the elite level.

I didn't suggest athletes are immune to stupidity so don't put words in my mouth thanks very much. Plenty of athletes are lacking in intelligence but they still wouldn't make the ridiculous leap he just made.

His being a netnerd was clearly a piss-take as the majority of folks here would fit that qualification - don't take it so serious Fuzzball. :pout:

And Randy despite all the tit for tat between Aussies and Poms and the geographic distance between us I think we have far more in common than we have ever had as differences. Some of my most memorable armchair sporting moments have involved Brits/English and not all of them have been in our favour. Ours is a genuine rivalry that has never affected our two nations on a political, sporting or personal level.

Besides that I have an aunt and a cousin that are as English as Bangers & Mash and would never completely deny the connection. My cousin played representative Rugby for England until his 20's when his knee was destroyed but he loved the Wallabies Jersey we sent him for his birthday and he happily wore it.

[RandBlade]

And Randy despite all the tit for tat between Aussies and Poms and the geographic distance between us I think we have far more in common than we have ever had as differences. Some of my most memorable armchair sporting moments have involved Brits/English and not all of them have been in our favour. Ours is a genuine rivalry that has never affected our two nations on a political, sporting or personal level.Absolutely!

I think ours is probably the number one sporting rivalry in the world, and for anyone who thinks rivalries are a bad thing, it is just a sporting rivalry, on all other respects our nations get along swimmingly (pun intended). I enjoyed living in Australia and have considered a few times potentially moving back at some point, at the least I will return next year for a holiday :)

But no matter how many gold's we get this Olympics, I want it to be at least one more than you guys, then I'll be a very happy man ;)

[termite]

But no matter how many gold's we get this Olympics, I want it to be at least one more than you guys, then I'll be a very happy man ;)

You'll get that wish I think, there are not too many Gold's left for us at this late stage, our women have been quite good this year but the men have been blitzed - particularly in the pool.

I felt sorry for the Hockeyroos (womens hockey) as they performed well but missed the medals by losing the wrong game. The womens basketball has been very good and our female swimmers did well as usual.

On the whole I think China has been amazing really, even though they're the host nation and have a huge population they have dominated the gold medals to an extent I don't think many would have predicted.

[Widows Peak Oz]

Hey, we hold the record (maybe) for most medals in terms of population and per capita..........

That's gotta mean something, doesn't it?? :p

[Moridin00]

Is it really cheating to let someone who's only 14 compete in the olympics tho?

[Loki]

Is it really cheating to let someone who's only 14 compete in the olympics tho?

When it's clearly against the rules, yes. If the Chinese are willing to forge the passports of their athletes, can we really trust them not to bribe the judges?

[bond21]

Hah I dont believe you people are actually arguing that China is winning...they have ranked the countries in the medal tally, gold being the only one that factors in for so many years, why are you trying to argue?

How can you people seriously believe bronze = gold?

Or is this the first olympics you kiddies have ever watched?

Medal tally - how it works(very complicated)

Country with most golds = #1
Country with 2nd most golds = #2
Country with 3rd most golds = #3

[Widows Peak Oz]

bond, what are you doing??

[Ziggy Stardust]

Aw, the chinese are winning from the Mericans so they be cheating.

USA Not Nr 1? :cry:

If the Chinese are willing to forge the passports of their athletes, can we really trust them not to bribe the judges?Of course we can't. In honest olympics the Mericans would always be the best of everyone.

[Moridin00]

:D:up:

[Loki]

Of course we can't. In honest olympics the Mericans would always be the best of everyone.

http://www.otherwhirled.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/troll3.jpg

[littlelolligagged]

And Americans would never, ever be cheaters, right?

[Loki]

And Americans would never, ever be cheaters, right?

Moral equivalency for the win. How unexpected. Yes, the US government makes it a point to help American athletes cheat. You're absolutely correct.

[Moridin00]

Passports etc. :up:

[Ziggy Stardust]

http://www.otherwhirled.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/troll3.jpg


http://margaretconnolly.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/genius-squad.gif

[Loki]

Lolli, if one of your children was at a sporting competition, and really didn't have much of a chance of winning (and ended up losing), but you found out that whoever won cheated, would you be upset/outraged?

[Lewkowski]

Should China be stripped of their gymnastics medals if solid proof is found of their cheeting? The answer has to be yes.

[Ominous Gamer]

I don't know how much more "solid" you are expecting....

http://strydehax.blogspot.com/
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/20/1259253

[Steely Glint]

Should China be stripped of their gymnastics medals if solid proof is found of their cheeting? The answer has to be yes.

Why the entire team, and not just the gymnast in question?

[Loki]

Why the entire team, and not just the gymnast in question?

When one person on a relay team gets disqualified (even for off-field activities, like doping), the entire team gets disqualified.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Is there relay in gymnastics?

[Loki]

Is there relay in gymnastics?

There's a team competition.

[Ziggy Stardust]

There's a team competition.If the scores are added, and the total counts ...

If this is true, I'd feel very sorry for the other gymnasts.

[Loki]

If the scores are added, and the total counts ...

If this is true, I'd feel very sorry for the other gymnasts.

Exactly. When an American sprinter was disqualified, the entire team lost their gold medals. I don't see why this is any different. Clearly her scores contributed towards her team's gold. And do we know if she's the only one who's underage? If the government is willing to forge one passport, it's quite possible that it could have forged more. There's a reason the average Chinese gymnast weighed 20 pounds less than the average American gymnast.

[Steely Glint]

When one person on a relay team gets disqualified (even for off-field activities, like doping), the entire team gets disqualified.

They should lose the gold medal for the athlete in question, and the one for the team competition. Lewkowski was saying that the all the Chinese gymnasts should lose their medals.

[Loki]

They should lose the gold medal for the athlete in question, and the one for the team competition. Lewkowski was saying that the all the Chinese gymnasts should lose their medals.

*shrug* The burden of proof should be on China to show that the other athletes aren't underage as well.

[Ziggy Stardust]

And do we know if she's the only one who's underage? If the government is willing to forge one passport, it's quite possible that it could have forged more. There's a reason the average Chinese gymnast weighed 20 pounds less than the average American gymnast.Fewer McDonalds in China?

[Loki]

Fewer McDonalds in China?

I'd be surprised if any of the top gymnasts for any team know what meat looks like.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm pretty sure that basketball player isn't underage.
I'd be surprised if any of the top gymnasts for any team know what meat looks like.You could explain: It's like soya, but with taste.

[Loki]

There are at least three Chinese gymnasts who are underage. (Or were listed as underage on official documentation, prior to the great Chinese document purge just prior to the Olympics.) I'd surprised shocked if they were the only three, of course.

And that brings up another issue, if an individual cheats, that individual loses their medals and any medals they contributed to. Surely if a country cheats, the punishment should be far harsher?

[Moridin00]

Yes! Ban the whole country, eh Loki? :D

[Nessus]

I think ours is probably the number one sporting rivalry in the world,

On what metric, exactly? My fair nation goes pretty ape-**** over any kind of sports competitions between us and the gods-damned butt-pirate Swedes.

[Echovirus]

Because I'm too lazy to repost it in here too...


It would seem that the one who's clearly 14 years old, isn't going to be investigated by the IOC or FIG, so I'm doubting they're going to investigate any of the others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Kexin#Age_controversy

On August 2, the International Olympic Committee stated that they would not investigate the discrepancy in He's reported age, stating that the FIG's own verification system would be acceptable proof of eligibility. The FIG, in responding to the situation, stated that they would not ask for additional proof of age beyond the passport already supplied by Chinese officials.

[Loki]

Yes! Ban the whole country, eh Loki? :D

I don't see why not. You ban the entity behind the cheating.

[Nessus]

Can't you guys just nuke them and get it over with?

[littlelolligagged]

Yeah, Loki, I'd be pissed.

Going specifically with the gymnastics thing, though - I wouldn't want my child to suddenly win based on this as opposed to actually being the best, though.

The age limit thing is a fairly new addition, brought about mainly because of coaches like Karolyi.

[LittleFuzzy]

Excuse you but I seriously doubt the stupid comments made by -LiLDaReDeViL5- would ever be made by someone that understands how difficult it is to compete particularly at the elite level.

I didn't suggest athletes are immune to stupidity so don't put words in my mouth thanks very much. Plenty of athletes are lacking in intelligence but they still wouldn't make the ridiculous leap he just made.

His being a netnerd was clearly a piss-take as the majority of folks here would fit that qualification - don't take it so serious Fuzzball. :pout:

Fine, the stupidity of this particular context. Doesn't help you. How many ex-jocks are there spouting the same drivel? Loads. Particularly considering they're more likely to care at all than your average net-nerd who stopped doing sports *if he/she ever started* after only a year or two.

[Loki]

Yeah, Loki, I'd be pissed.

Going specifically with the gymnastics thing, though - I wouldn't want my child to suddenly win based on this as opposed to actually being the best, though.

The age limit thing is a fairly new addition, brought about mainly because of coaches like Karolyi.

According to that logic, if a team of 30-year-olds win the Little League World Series, the second place team (a team that met the requirements) wouldn't deserve the gold. Fact is that gold goes to the best individual or team that meets the entry requirements. It's irrelevant if they actually finished second, because the first team didn't meet those requirements.

[Steely Glint]

*shrug* The burden of proof should be on China to show that the other athletes aren't underage as well.

Innocent until Proven Guilty: not for chinamen

[Loki]

Innocent until Proven Guilty: not for chinamen

They were already proven guilty.

[Steely Glint]

They were already proven guilty.

The entire team? No.

But then they were proved innocent by newer fabricated documents! That proves they're innocent, and also, that Steely isn't being an absurd, whiny little pissant about it.

And the Americans in this thread also aren't also being absurd, little pissant who are butthurt that China is beating them in the medal table*.

* which, of course, is very important.

[Loki]

I wonder if you'd be singing the same tune if the US government cheated on behalf of its athletes, which quite frankly is a disgusting violation of the Olympic spirit. People have seen their medals stripped for less.

[Nessus]

Of course you do, nationalism demands it!

[Steely Glint]

I wonder if you'd be singing the same tune if the US government cheated on behalf of its athletes, which quite frankly is a disgusting violation of the Olympic spirit. People have seen their medals stripped for less.

I sure has hell wouldn't be support banning the entire US team. It's an individual sport, so I don't see why every single US competitor should suffer because of the US Governments dickery.

Let's talk about cheating, shall we? Cheating, I think we can all agree, is breaking the rules to gain an unfair advantage. The minimum age rule in gymnastics isn't there to stop people gaining an advantage, it's there for the welfare of the competitors. He Kexin gets no advantages over her competitors because she's so young - she was still the better gymnast, and if you stripe her of her medals (which you should) the chinese gymnasts were still better than the American gymnasts. Get over it :o

EDIT: And, at 14, Kixen would not be the youngest Olympian (http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=103534&in_page_id=34)

[littlelolligagged]

Well she does gain the advantage that younger gymnasts are less likely to be injured.

Saying the Chinese gymnasts were better is just being anti-American again, though. ;)

[Steely Glint]

Well she does gain the advantage that younger gymnasts are less likely to be injured.

I'd think they'd be more likely to be injured, not less. Their less developed bodies and bones would certainly suffer alot more from the landing impacts. That's probably the very reason the rule exists in the first place. Certainly, there was no controversy over Britains 13 year old diver.

[Loki]

I sure has hell wouldn't be support banning the entire US team. It's an individual sport, so I don't see why every single US competitor should suffer because of the US Governments dickery.

Let's talk about cheating, shall we? Cheating, I think we can all agree, is breaking the rules to gain an unfair advantage. The minimum age rule in gymnastics isn't there to stop people gaining an advantage, it's there for the welfare of the competitors. He Kexin gets no advantages over her competitors because she's so young - she was still the better gymnast, and if you stripe her of her medals (which you should) the chinese gymnasts were still better than the American gymnasts. Get over it :o

EDIT: And, at 14, Kixen would not be the youngest Olympian (http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=103534&in_page_id=34)

False. The age limit is there for both reasons. Younger gymnasts are more flexible, which gives them a clear advantage over their competitors. Not that this matters. A rule is a rule. One can't break it just because one doesn't agree with it. What if someone said "hm, I don't think this substance should be banned; I'm going to inject it into myself". Should that person retain their medal?

You're letting your blatant anti-American bias show.

[Nessus]

anti-American biashttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/SinWithSebastian/caridee_yay2.gif

[-LiLDaReDeViL5-]

-LiLDaReDeViL5- is almost certainly a big fat lazy netnerd that never did any sport and thinks exercise is ripping open a can of soda (after mommy loosened it for him).

Anyone that actually participated in competitive sport would never make such retarded comments as those made by -LiLDaReDeViL5-. Particularly the moronic one about the medal count - success is not 3rd place(bronze), it's good but it ain't success.

Uh...where do I begin?
I run track for my JV high school team and was the starting center for my elementary basketball team,an all-star from 6th grade on.
I want to grab a bronze medal winner,have them stand right in your face,then you tell them they suck and aren't a success.Wait,you wouldn't,you'd need to hide behind the internet to do that!

Your vagina must be coming in nicely!

[Steely Glint]

False. The age limit is there for both reasons. Younger gymnasts are more flexible, which gives them a clear advantage over their competitors.

Competitors are now not allowed to have clear physical advantages over other competitors. Who'd have thunk it. That's why 26 year old sprinters are not allowed to complete against 20 year old sprinters in the olympics, because greater physical development gives them a clear advantage... wait, no.

The rule is there because putting young girls through that kind of training at an early age can do all kinds of damage to them, both now and later in life. It has nothing to do with advantage.

Age rules at the Olympics are set by the federations that run the sports, and many don’t have any limits.

The gymnastics age requirement was adopted following criticism that girls 14 and under were being exploited. It is supposed to protect the physical and psychological health of young athletes—primarily young women whose bodies are still growing.

Figure-skating has a minimum age of 15 for similar reasons.

“It’s a matter of health and taking care of the gymnast,” said Philippe Silacci, spokesman for the International Gymnastics Federation, known by the French-language acronym FIG. “I think I can make the point this way: Try to put a 12-year-old boy in a Formula One car and see what happens.”

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/news?slug=ap-agerules&prov=ap&type=lgns

FYI flexibility isn't exactly the only thing that matters in gymnastics. There's also the matter of power. The strength to weight ratio of someone like Shawn Johnson, to do the **** she pulls, must be out of this world - and it's an area where older gymnasts naturally have the advantage over younger ones.

Not that this matters. A rule is a rule. One can't break it just because one doesn't agree with it. What if someone said "hm, I don't think this substance should be banned; I'm going to inject it into myself". Should that person retain their medal?

I agree completely. I've already said, like twice, in this thread that He Kixon should be disqualified and also the chinese should be disqualified from the team competition. If the rule is going to be changed, and there's a case for it, it should be for 2012, not retroactive.

What I'm reacting against is the hilarious overeaction by you, Cain, Lewkowksi and other Americans to what is basically a technicallity. "Ban all the Chinese gymnasts! No, ban the entire Chinese olympic team! So America can be ahead in the medal table... I mean, because of the, uh, spirit of the olympics which needs... needs to be perserved. Yeah."

You're letting your blatant anti-American bias show.

PRO-TIP: sometimes, Loki, even a great and glorious nation such as America loses and sometimes it's in the wrong and sometimes the things Americans do are questionable. Pointing this out is not actually anti-American.

[Nessus]

Your vagina must be coming in nicely!

So women are the inferior sex? What? How is this an insult?

[Loki]

*snip*

So it is your position that cheating done by a country is no worse than cheating done by an individual athlete?

[Flixy]

So it is your position that cheating done by a country is no worse than cheating done by an individual athlete?
I'd say the individual athletes should be punished, and the country sanctioned. But the other medals were earned by individual athletes who did not cheat. Why take their medals away? It is their reward, not China's reward.

I think this kind of cheating is less bad than using doping. The girl was better, just strictly speaking too young. She should be stripped of the medal for being too young, but she was still better.

Athletes from quite a few countries (including the USA) have a history of cheating too, mostly doping. Should those countries also be punished as a whole?

*wonders if the girl actually knew she was breaking the rules*

[Steely Glint]

What would you have done, Loki? Stripe medals from athletes who had nothing to do with it? How is that fair?

[Loki]

I'd say the individual athletes should be punished, and the country sanctioned. But the other medals were earned by individual athletes who did not cheat. Why take their medals away? It is their reward, not China's reward.

I think this kind of cheating is less bad than using doping. The girl was better, just strictly speaking too young. She should be stripped of the medal for being too young, but she was still better.

Athletes from quite a few countries (including the USA) have a history of cheating too, mostly doping. Should those countries also be punished as a whole?

*wonders if the girl actually knew she was breaking the rules*

Way to miss a point. If individuals cheat, you punish the individuals. If countries cheat, you punish the countries. Which part of that is hard to understand? Chinese athletes compete on behalf of China. This cheating was done to help Chinese athletes. If you don't severely punish China for this, what's to stop it or other countries from pulling a similar stunt next time?

Considering that the girl claims she's 16, I would imagine she knows she's breaking the rules.

[Steely Glint]

Still not getting this "individual sport" thing, are you?

[littlelolligagged]

The rule is there because putting young girls through that kind of training at an early age can do all kinds of damage to them, both now and later in life. It has nothing to do with advantage.

The older age for competing in the Olympics doesn't actually mean that they normally start their training later. It just means they have been putting their bodies under a lot of strain for more a longer time.

[Loki]

Still not getting this "individual sport" thing, are you?

The athletes are trained by the Chinese government and their performance affects the prestige of the Chinese government. You can't punish China without punishing the athletes.

What would you have done, Loki? Stripe medals from athletes who had nothing to do with it? How is that fair?

I would strip the medals from all Chinese gymnasts (the medals would stay vacant in cases whether the Chinese athletes were of the proper age) and bar China from sending gymnasts to the next Olympics.

[Steely Glint]

The older age for competing in the Olympics doesn't actually mean that they normally start their training later. It just means they have been putting their bodies under a lot of strain for more a longer time.

And, er, doing more training.

The point is the strain on the bodies of athletes who are still growing. It can do damage. An adult or young adult should be able to take it.

[littlelolligagged]

And, er, doing more training.

The point is the strain on the bodies of athletes who are still growing. It can do damage. An adult or young adult should be able to take it.

By that point the damage is done, though. Not just physically, either, in some cases (go read about Bela Karolyi for ****s and giggles).

[Steely Glint]

The athletes are trained by the Chinese government and their performance affects the prestige of the Chinese government. You can't punish China without punishing the athletes.

This isn't Russia invading Georgia, it's gymnastics. You can take your ****ing IR goggles off now.

I would strip the medals from all Chinese gymnasts (the medals would stay vacant in cases whether the Chinese athletes were of the proper age) and bar China from sending gymnasts to the next Olympics.

That's completely disproportionate.

[Steely Glint]

By that point the damage is done, though. Not just physically, either, in some cases (go read about Bela Karolyi for ****s and giggles).

Yeah, which makes the rule kind of pointless. You can't stop china or elsewhere doing this to its gymnasts, even if she can't compete in 2008, they'll be getting her ready for 2012.

[Loki]

This isn't Russia invading Georgia, it's gymnastics. You can take your ****ing IR goggles off now.

Tell that to the Chinese government. :rolleyes: I'm not the one who risked global embarrassment just to get more gold medals at the Olympics.

That's completely disproportionate.

Yeah, let's allow countries to cheat at will and then give them a small slap on the wrist on the few occasions where they get caught.

[-LiLDaReDeViL5-]

Run away and go complain about how the CC gives you butthurt again, you pissant little preteen.
O.K.,will do.Yet again,you probably know the feeling of butthurt better than I do,right?

And,banning China from sending gymnasts to the next Olympics is harsh.That's not fair to Olympic hopefuls who will be of age.Taking the medals away sounds like a better option.

[littlelolligagged]

Yeah, which makes the rule kind of pointless. You can't stop china or elsewhere doing this to its gymnasts, even if she can't compete in 2008, they'll be getting her ready for 2012.
Oh, I agree completely with the rule being pointless, and I don't think being younger gives any real advantage (other than having had less wear and tear on their bodies).

It's not like doping at all.

[Nessus]

O.K.,will do.Yet again,you probably know the feeling of butthurt better than I do,right?

And,banning China from sending gymnasts to the next Olympics is harsh.That's not fair to Olympic hopefuls who will be of age.Taking the medals away sounds like a better option.Answer my question you pissant