Stu-2693's workshop (as such)

[stu-2693]

Well, i thought people might wanna find me rather i find them :p and i couldn't think of any were else that would be more suited than here to put this soo.. i will try explain this as clearly as i can:

Firstly, there is a growing amount of members using Google Sketchup for their CS. There is no problem with this, however, sketch up is incredibly well known for unnecessarily increasing the amount of polygons in models, with no easy way of reducing them.

To help this growing problem i thought i would introduce this thread, the aim, to help people learn some hints and tips on how to improve, or reduce the polygons on their sketch up models. of course i could try and write down every tip, trick and basically two or three years of knowledge down on a thread, in my opinion it would not be worth it becouse 1. i do not want fingers like mush and 2. none would a. understand it or b. read it.

for me to help, i propose that people who need help or tips post their sketch up models here for me to download and edit, when i have finished i shall post the edited model and a short explanation of what i did to improve it. not only does this save my fingers but it may also be an incentive to learn and gives something to refer to.

a few notes though

1. do not post models over.. lets say 2x2 squares large.. i do not want to spend my days reducing polygons and tying hints for a city made of CS or something stupid, and after all, it is best to start small and work from there usually.

2. i do not want a lot of questions asking how to make cs or import it, there is several stickied threads covering that, this is mainly for help with models.

3. models should only be used by the creator of the original model unless they say otherwise and i think it should be that you can use my edited model only if it was your model that i edited, i do not mind if you use the model i edit, but it would be nice if i do get a tiny bit of credit for doing so :p

i know it is a lot to get your head around and i am sure the mods will close the thread quite early on, but hey... it is the thought that counts :) the thought that i am editing models for free AND giving explanations :haha:

by the way, i would post my own models and after-edits.. BUT throughout the years i have found ways of preventing polygons from the start so it would be a bit pointless posting two models which are highly identical :p

I thought it was a good idea :P

[wabigbear]

I think it's an excellent idea. I don't see why it would be closed unless someone decides to spam it up, but it's a nice help topic. Instead of people being pestered by dozens of pm's asking senseless questions, or new people getting mad if they are reminded that poly counts are important, they can get good solid help here. And we ALL win if the scenery is better...

[stu-2693]

hehe thanks Wagi ;) im guessing you do not need any help :p? JK :D

[errt]

You stole my idea :p You know I'm already doing this (well, at least sometimes I offer people to do this if I see good models with high poly count) But nice that more people help others this way. I really think that this is a good way to get good, low poly models in great sets from new talented people.

[stu-2693]

don't worry, good minds thing alike, or so they say :p (reminds me of the film "liar liar":

daddy, our teacher says true beauty is in the inside
son, that is just something ugly people say to make them feel better

:haha:)

feel free to contribute whenever you like, this is not intentionally all about me :haha:

[radio538goeroe]

Great idea I always see you making long posts with pics and stuff to explain something (do you really make those pics everytime specially for 1 post?).

Great Idea if I'm gonna need it ill use this thread!

[stu-2693]

(do you really make those pics everytime specially for 1 post?).
:haha: yes, it doesnt actually take that long, it is the explination that takes longer :p

[gavt1976]

I think this would be good has a sticky because then people can have a look at it. And it is a good idea.

[stu-2693]

there is nothing to have a look at yet :p

[Adnecles]

Great idea stu!

ok not that I need to reduce polys but question I have is, is this too many faces for roof corners?

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/1646/roof1ev0.th.png (http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=roof1ev0.png)
46 faces

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/4509/roof2ka7.th.png (http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=roof2ka7.png)
64 faces

yes am still working on getting right textures for my chinese/japanese roofs.

[stu-2693]

i bet it is more than 46 and 64 when you export it :p

the only thing that is causing it to be reasonably high for what it is, is that the roof is 2 ply, meaning it has a seperate top from bottom, if you change it to just one thickness it should almost half it ;)

BTW, the first looks much nicer than the second :up:

[Vodhin]

Nice idea, stu-2693. Just don't forget about image sizes for textures on these models- polygon count is only half of the prolems woth some of the stuff I've seen here ;)

[stu-2693]

Nice idea, stu-2693. Just don't forget about image sizes for textures on these models- polygon count is only half of the prolems woth some of the stuff I've seen here ;)


okok :p lets kill one thing at a time :p polygons everyone can do, textures are a little more difficult :D

[Vodhin]

okok :p lets kill one thing at a time :p polygons everyone can do, textures are a little more difficult :D

Not really- just use a photo program and resize (AKA Scale) them to an appropriate HxW. A while ago I came up with a formula for determining a "High Quality" texture vs. "Standard Quality" and "Low Quality". This is generally applied to textures that will be tiled, but can also be used for texture "maps". Images with an alpha channel that will be used for "cut-outs" (any of the SIAlpha ~ Low texture types for making absolutely clear sections) might need to be larger.

Keep in mind that this texture scaling trick work best with objects that are not "attached" over distances (like fencing/walls) but for stand alone objects- like lamp posts, benches, statues, etc.

The formula goes:

HQ: 1 square modeling unit gets 128x128 pixels
SQ: 1 square modeling unit gets 64x64 pixels
LQ: 1 square modeling unit gets 32x32 pixels (but this is really poor except for images that have really large patterns).

Basically, if you had a wall that was 4 units high and 4 units wide, and your HQ texture repeats 4 times up and 4 times across, then the texture only needs to be 128x128. If your texture repeats only once, then it should be no larger than 512x512.

Everyone should keep in mind that this not a rule, and depending on the detail in the texture, you might be able to make smaller versions that work as well as larger ones without using up extra resources.

Remember, it's not only the geometric creation of the object while rendering the object in RCT3, but the "on-the-fly" scaling of the texture used as applied to that object.

This is all part of the level of detail settings in RCT3- not just models with more/less faces on them, but in some cases, the need to use smaller textures on lower levels of detail settings, too.

I recommend that folks out there experiment with each new texture they are about to use: make several models, each using different resolutions (one with 128x128, another with 256x256, etc) and compare them in game. Remember when you reduce your texture just one basic level, from 512x512 to 256x256, your end resource usage is about 75% less than before- the image is a quarter of the original size. That's a big savings in resources.

The thing to remember, though, is that even if you use a combination of texture resolutions and models, depending on your LOD settings (Level of Detail) for the models, you might end up having both textures loaded in memory. This can happen in models that move or repeat (a ride, or walls/ fencing). You'd be better off using the better quality texture only.

-V

[radio538goeroe]

Allright I got one ;)

http://rapidshare.com/files/145286334/litter_bin.skp.html

Its a litter bin and it looks like this:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk163/radio538goeroe/prullenbak.jpg
P.S. dont think I'm so stupid that i cant do this myself Stu asked me to do this so he can give an example.
I'm sorry i had to say this but I dont want ppl to think I'm stupid and a Nub in CS creation

[stu-2693]

Do not worry, you are not stupid ;)

http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr105/doughnuts3000/litter_bin.jpg

Before: 3796 faces
After: 60 faces
File (http://files.filefront.com/radio538goeroe+Litter+Binzip/;11796198;/fileinfo.html)

Explanation:

To be honest, there was not much editing involved, what i did was measured the radius of the bin and then made a circle beside it which was similar in size (i changed the measurements to meters so it was easier). i then extruded it so it was roughly the same height as the other bin too.

The original had bands across the bin, this means the faces are split and then doubled (in this case trebled because it was done 3 times), this is not necessary however because textures in sketchup tile automatically, so when one starts, the other finishes :up:, sometimes however it is good to draw these lines for guides, if you want to do this make a group for your whole model and then draw the lines on the outside of the group, this way it does not intersect with the model causing unnecessary faces ;)

So i applied the texture and had a quick think about the top, since a hole wasn't too appealing in my opinion i thought "well, rims usually have holes in them anyway so why not use the holes for putting trash in" so i searched google for "rims" and found one which was front on view and had a white background which was this one (http://www.3dnuts.com/tutorials/wheel/rims_mfull4.jpg), i then quickly opened the gimp, selected the white background and erased it, i then resized it to 256x256 and saved it as .png

I imported the image as a image, not a texture and positioned it exactly i the middle on top of the bin. i then raised the image up by 1 and exploded, and grouped again, by doing this i can now click the dropper and then the top of the bin and it will project straight on top of it.

I thought "it is a bit boring if it is flat" so i drew a slightly smaller circle on the top of the bin and raised it, creating a flat top cone, i then projected the image and grouped both parts, then deleted the picture of the rim and i was done.

i could have added an inner to the bin, but since it is so small you can hardly see it i didn't see the point :)

by the way, the explanation took 3 times as long as making the thing :p

thanks radio538goeroe for letting me do an example ;)

[radio538goeroe]

Ok first STU THANK YOU (Lol) It right now has 166 faces (I made a nice inside :D Because otherwise i taught it looked too t hin :D but still thats like 3500 faces less :D Thank You Thank You Thank You!

[stu-2693]

yea, but do not forget it is going to be tiny in game ;)

[errt]

60 faces for the outside and 106 for the inside? That's too much for the inside. Not that 166 is that much, but litter bins are used hundreds of times in parks, so they should be as low poly as possible. With the inside it could easily have less then 100 polys.

[stu-2693]

anyone else want their models Moded ? :haha:

[deadstar]

I want! I want! :haha:

...As soon as I make it..

[stu-2693]

oh right :p

[LightGrenades]

If you already said this, I apologize.

Don't forget, circles can go as low as 3 sided. A lot of circular objects in the game are actually pentagons with smoothed edges (like coaster rails for example).

http://i17.tinypic.com/4u2u71v.jpg

http://i13.tinypic.com/6fiia6g.jpg

The smaller the object, the fewer amount of sides you need. A lamp post could be done in 3-5 sides.

Hope it helps.

[The_Cook]

60 faces for the outside and 106 for the inside? That's too much for the inside.

Using any polygons for the inside is too much!

When playing the game most of the time the viewing angle will be such that the inside of the bin will never be seen, therefore you have wasted 106 polygons modelling something that will never be seen. One of the keys to a good model is to think about the context that it will be used in and develop for that, regularly people model very small details because they are working up close in their 3d package when in reality the model will always be seen in the middle distance at which point the details are too small to be seen.

As an aside I suspect from the original explanation that the DS texture is being being used, if an interior is done for the bin the one of the SI options should be used instead allowing back surface elimination to cull a couple more polygons when drawing. Rather than modelling a full interior just place a black "circle" over the top just below the silver spokes, from the rare times that the bin is viewed from above it will just look like the dark interior of a bin and by closing off the container you can change to using an SI option which simplifies the task of the game engine even further.

[Old-Spice]

^ agreed, I did as such with my Trash can in my recreation, personaly, If i dont see it, I dont need it. who is going to look inside the trash can? not me.

I do have to say that working with this game has got me into makeing everything low poly .

[stu-2693]

thanks LightGrenades, forget 5 sided, i sometimes even use 3 or 4 sided :p, it is hard to tell the difference unless you view it from the top :p

also thanks The_Cook for the insider, I'm sure it is a bit technical still for some people though :D

when working with circles for things i usually work with things that have nice symmetry.. big stuff usually 12, then 8, then four for small stuff usually, then if you need to add anything at right angles to it then it doesn't split faces in half :)
it can also provide the basis for LOD's too :p even though i usually do not bother :) i know i should but i have enough trouble releasing sets as it is :haha:

[Anubislive]

I'm making tire scenery too (coop with Radio538Goeroe). basicaly i made a alpha texture like this: http://files.turbosquid.com/Preview/Content_on_8_12_2004_21_53_43/texture_tire.tga733fb0c9-7503-4107-9231-ea183a7e6f8aLarge.jpg

and place it one top of a 5(25cm2)-10 sided(1m2) raised (push/pull) circle of which i first removed the top and bottom so i'm only left with the 5-10 side. And the you've got your tire!


1. use alpha textures every time it's possible!

2. check out RCT3's in game scenery's and so forth, you'll figure out helpfull hint about how the pro's did it:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3039/2856355294_077ab065c3.jpg

Check out the small tires that came with the Go Karts Tracks: just 4, 1 sided, sides and two (front and back side) perfect circular Alpha textures! so even the people at atari use this method! 16 poly's by my count!

[stu-2693]

i think you are refering to what i call an alpha sandwich :p

basically a square plane on top of a cylinder without a top or bottom, and the plane has an alpha texture :)

i might do an example of that :p

[Anubislive]

exactly!:up:

(alpha sandwich!:mdr1: It's gonna be a thing!)

[delta V]

Hey Stu-2693, this model was 150,000 (approx) poly when I started, I have it down to about 3000 now. Credits for the model are posted in the thread war pieces.

The model is at the bottom of the page. "Work humvee 3.skb"

Thanks!

LINK (http://sites.google.com/site/deltavhosting/Home)

[Major Sound]

Ugh, wonder if I should get back to CS just to get help from you! :p

[stu-2693]

delta V , have you go the link to the one wee it was 150000? i would probably find it easier with that ;) it may sound strange but i usually find it easier

trouble is with your model is that if you want to get it low then you need to use textures in replacement of polygons, unfortunately i do not have the time to make textures for the thing so it might look really bad..

[delta V]

Here's the big one.

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=16962c9953fdfcb96322f4263e93cf8e

thanks again

[stu-2693]

i have managed 400 polygons from the link above, it just needs a few textures (which i haven't the time to make)

[delta V]

Thanks! I can manage the textures. Where can I get the model?

[stu-2693]

http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr105/doughnuts3000/Untitled-6.jpg (http://files.filefront.com/Untitledskp/;12014907;/fileinfo.html)

all i basically did was strip it down to a box with wheels, everything else was either not worth being there or if necessary, can be done with alphas, including the gun and the hole on top ;)i think if you want to do the gun the best way to go about doing it is a bunch of alpha planes because if you do it with polygons then it is either going to look bad, or increase it tenfold ;)

i am guessing the windows are going to be blacked out or something because there is nothing to see inside, so you could probably get rid of the plane on the front and do it on the bit left,

also, if you are wondering why the wheels are floating, unless you are going to raise the car up 200 ft and look underneath, you are not going to see the underside anyway :p

the model as a whole may look pretty ugly, but once you get some textures on it and you import it with the right settings it should look pretty good :)

BTW it is now 343 :haha:

[gamer2456]

I need you look at my model of my fireplace the poly count 466 and I can't figure out why
http://files.filefront.com/firplaceskp/;12040834;/fileinfo.html
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8053/firplaceij7.jpg

[stu-2693]

http://files.filefront.com/firplaceskp/;12041944;/fileinfo.html
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr105/doughnuts3000/firplace.jpg

279 polygons

almost half the amount of polygons, barely trying :P

1. I deleted all lines which were unnecessary, an example are the lines on top of the shelves in your picture, they do not do anything, therefore they go, bye bye, see ya later :up:

2. I chopped it clean in half and deleted one half, this isn't necessary but i did it because your model was not symmetrical, it is usually easier to work with symmetrical stuff, also i only have to fix half, and then later on when i have finished i would duplicate it and mirror it to create a full finished model

3. with the half i had left i set to work on the pole things (one of the main contributions to polygons) the problem was that some sections were intersected with the one below it, some not, this means creating holes and faces on the bottom of things (holes=polygons, bottom faces = polygons) so to fix this i intersected it all, creating one big hole down the centre, this creates quite a lot of polygons but it easier to fix it in the long run.

4. i then grouped the pole separate from the main fireplace, this meant easy editing and also stops it from intersecting with it creating a hole (and polygons). this left a hole in the fireplace at the top of the pole and the bottom of the pole were it was intersected before, so i just selected the perimeter of the holes and pressed delete and it gets rid of the hole.

5. next i started on removing the giant hole through the centre of the pole, so i selected the wide parts of the pole and grouped them separately, i then removed the holes that had been made leaving me with basically, a cube.
i repeated this with all 5 sections of the pole creating five cubes. some of the tops and bottoms of the cubes cannot be seen, so i just deleted them.

6. i repeated this with the other small pole.

7. i grouped everything i had together (half a fireplace), copied it, pasted it, scales it on the horizontal axis by -1 (mirrored) and then placed it next to the other half. i then exploded the fireplace leaving the poles still grouped ( so they didn't intersect) i then removed all join lines (so it was one solid object instead of two halves.

8. now i set to work on the main fireplace, if you look at it sideways then you can see you can split it up into several blocks, so i did, i selected the bits that i wanted in the block, grouped it, deleted unwanted bits and moved tot he next one, so i ended up with the base, large backboard, large shelf, small backboard and top... and of course the 4 poles.

this was basically it, if you look, it is now an assortment of grouped cubes, it still looks the same, it is just arranged differently and doesn't have polygons you cannot see ;)

[gamer2456]

thank you for the help but one question what do mean by model not be in symmetrical

[stu-2693]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetric