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View Full Version : I'm sorry sir, but your cows are polluting the air.


EsPeeFour
12-17-2008, 11:05 AM
Didn't see anybody else post this.

Now this is outrageous!

(AP) For farmers, this stinks: Belching and gaseous cows and hogs could start costing them money if the federal government decides to charge fees for air-polluting animals.

Farmers so far are turning their noses up at the notion, which they contend is a possible consequence of an Environmental Protection Agency report after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2007 that greenhouse gases emitted by belching and flatulence amounts to air pollution.

"This is one of the most ridiculous things the federal government has tried to do," said Alabama Agriculture Commissioner Ron Sparks, an outspoken opponent of the fees.

EPA officials insisted Friday that the lengthy, highly technical report, which mostly focuses on other sources of air pollution, does not include a proposal to tax livestock.

But the American Farm Bureau Federation said, based on federal agriculture department figures, it would require farms or ranches with more than 25 dairy cows, 50 beef cattle or 200 hogs to pay an annual fee of about $175 for each dairy cow, $87.50 per head of beef cattle and $20 for each hog.

The executive vice president of the Wyoming Farm Bureau Federation, Ken Hamilton, estimated the fee would cost owners of a modest-sized cattle ranch $30,000 to $40,000 a year. He said he has talked to a number of livestock owners about the proposals, and "all have said if the fees were carried out, it would bankrupt them."

Sparks said Wednesday he's worried the fee could be extended to chickens and other farm animals and cause more meat to be imported.

"We'll let other countries put food on our tables like they are putting gas in our cars. Other countries don't have the health standards we have," Sparks said.

The farm groups say the fee would apply to farms with livestock operations that emit more than 100 tons of carbon emissions in a year and fall under federal Clean Air Act provisions.

EPA officials said the agency has not taken a position on any of the matters discussed in its response to the Supreme Court ruling. And John Millett, a spokesman for EPA's air and radiation division, said there has been an oversimplification of the EPA's document "to the point of distortion."

"EPA is not proposing any type of tax on livestock," he said.

The EPA briefly mentions "raising livestock" in its report on ways to regulate greehnouse gases under the provisions of the Clean Air Act. Paul Schlegel, director of public policy for the American Farm Bureau Federation, said it determined the possible fees that could be imposed by using Agriculture Department statistics on the amount of greenhouse gases that come from livestock and applied it to the EPA's permitting rules.

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/common/images/v3/quote_open.gifIt seems there is an ulterior motive, to destroy livestock farms.http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/common/images/v3/quote_close.gif
Perry Mobley, Alabama Farmers Federation

Farmers from across the country have expressed outrage over the EPA report, both on Internet sites and in opinions sent to EPA during a public comment period that ended last week. Many call it a "cow tax" and say the EPA proposed it.

"It's something that really has a very big potential adverse impact for the livestock industry," said Rick Krause, the senior director of congressional relations for the American Farm Bureau Federation.

The fee would cover the cost of a permit for the livestock operations. While farmers say it would drive them out of business, an organization supporting the proposal hopes it forces the farms and ranches to switch to healthier crops.

"It makes perfect sense if you are looking for ways to cut down on meat consumption and recoup environmental losses," said Bruce Friedrich, a spokesman in Washington for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

"We certainly support making factory farms pay their fair share," he said.

U.S. Rep. Robert Aderholt, a Republican from Haleyville in northwest Alabama, said he has spoken with EPA officials and doesn't believe the cow tax is a serious proposal that will ever be adopted by the agency.

"Who comes up with this kind of stuff?" said Perry Mobley, director of the Alabama Farmers Federation's beef division. "It seems there is an ulterior motive, to destroy livestock farms. This would certainly put them out of business."


What the hell else is next?

Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/05/tech/main4651448.shtml?source=RSSattr=SciTech_4651448

']['ear
12-17-2008, 11:17 AM
Well, livestock is one of the major sources of greenhouse gases. We raise them in unsustainable numbers, not to mention clearcutting gargantuan stretches of forest to provide land for them (not in the US, but in Brazil).

So what do you propose as an alternative?

Khendraja'aro
12-17-2008, 11:17 AM
Actually, livestock is one of the biggest sources for methane, so... :p

Ziggy Stardust
12-17-2008, 11:24 AM
What the hell else is next?Your children.

wabigbear
12-17-2008, 11:30 AM
Scare tactics. Where in the article does it say they have any plans to tax anyone for what their animals do? They don't. Even in the article they say they don't MULTIPLE times.

Once again they try to make it out that it's some poor farmer right out of the American Gothic painting with a couple cows and a few chickens running free scratching for worms in their orchard who is being picked on when it's actually factory farming where they cram as many animals in per square foot as they can, often in horrible conditions. When you have animals on that scale there IS going to be an effect.

Anyone have the misfortune to live downwind from one of those factory farms on a hot summer evening after the sun has been beating down on their open manure lagoon all day?

BalticSailor
12-17-2008, 11:33 AM
Your children.

Only on condition that we tolerate this, though.

']['ear
12-17-2008, 11:46 AM
Scare tactics. Where in the article does it say they have any plans to tax anyone for what their animals do? They don't. Even in the article they say they don't MULTIPLE times.

Once again they try to make it out that it's some poor farmer right out of the American Gothic painting with a couple cows and a few chickens running free scratching for worms in their orchard who is being picked on when it's actually factory farming where they cram as many animals in per square foot as they can, often in horrible conditions. When you have animals on that scale there IS going to be an effect.

Anyone have the misfortune to live downwind from one of those factory farms on a hot summer evening after the sun has been beating down on their open manure lagoon all day?

No, but I have the misfortune to live in a huge hog-raising state, so many of our waterways are contaminated by coliform bacteria from pig ****, because politicians don't have the balls to have pig farmers adhere to reasonable waste control measures. Oh, ditto for the huge beaches that are a major fraction of the state's economy. Everybody loves when they get shut down on occasion due to spikes in bacterial contamination. :up:

But hey man, as long as those big-ass corporate farms have their FREEEDOMMMM!, we should all be happy, right? Don't you worry about my right to a world that isn't infused with pig ****.

LittleFuzzy
12-17-2008, 12:51 PM
Didn't see anybody else post this.

Now this is outrageous!




What the hell else is next?

Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/05/tech/main4651448.shtml?source=RSSattr=SciTech_4651448

::shrugs:: It's well known that cows are a major contributive source of gases that make up the local smog in the San Joaquin Valley. A tax on methane-release, even in agriculture, doesn't seem like a crazy idea to me. No one has proposed it yet though, the article makes it VERY clear that this is lobbyists making a pre-emptive assault, using their estimates for what a program no one has been considering might cost. You can probably throttle back the outrage a bit.

']['ear
12-17-2008, 12:59 PM
Yeah, I'm sure those estimates of cost are totally reasonable, too. In fact, I'm absolutely certain they wouldn't, say, inflate those numbers by 10 fold or anything. :rolleyes:

Well, I guess we know how Bush suckered the American public into supporting the Iraq war. Really, this OP just illustrates how mind-blowingly naive and lacking in critical thinking skills some people are.

teclis
12-17-2008, 11:38 PM
['ear;10923421"]Well, livestock is one of the major sources of greenhouse gases. We raise them in unsustainable numbers, not to mention clearcutting gargantuan stretches of forest to provide land for them (not in the US, but in Brazil).

So what do you propose as an alternative?

I just want to point out. That as ridiculous as it is to imagine the government here doing anything to hurt the farm lobby, if they did, Brazilian beef would just become that much more competitive, and even more of their forests would be cut down by ranchers.

wabigbear
12-18-2008, 10:09 AM
I just want to point out. That as ridiculous as it is to imagine the government here doing anything to hurt the farm lobby, if they did, Brazilian beef would just become that much more competitive, and even more of their forests would be cut down by ranchers.

Absolutely agree.

I have to shake my head at those in the northern hemisphere who complain about the rate the Amazon is being cut down but still expect cheap Big Mac's and Chicken McNuggets as if they were a 'right'...

']['ear
12-18-2008, 10:21 AM
First, what percentage of Americans do you actually think are even slightly aware of the deforestation rate of the Amazon basin, much less know that it is done in large part to create grazing land for cattle, which in turn are mostly imported tot he US for cheap beef in fast food restaurants?

Second, you really think the type of person who worries about those issues is a frequent patron of cheap fast food restaurants? I'd argue that knowledge of that issue is mostly among the very educated, and fast food eating is very much a class phenomenon, where the poorer and less educated are vastly disproportionately represented.

Just a little seat of the pants demographics exercising to illustrate that no, probably very few of those worried about Amazonian deforestation are expecting cheap McBurgers as a right.

wabigbear
12-18-2008, 10:44 AM
Actually I think quite a few Americans are aware of the deforestation. It's in newspaper's, magazines, on TV and certainly well covered online, it's a topic that's been around for quite a while, it's not anything new. I'd say it's fairly common knowledge for the majority of Americans of any income level.

Where you might be correct is in the number of Americans who realize (or even care) where the beef they eat comes from, and that cuts across income levels (and I'd argue with you that McDonalds and their competitors see a lot more educated and wealthy people than you think! LOL!). Most probably think that Farmer Jones down the road raised what they eat. The connection between deforestation and cheap beef may not be well known to many, but I'm not convinced it would make much difference if it was.

Porteņo
12-18-2008, 05:45 PM
Nuke India

CitizenCain
12-30-2008, 11:48 AM
Proof that life causes global warming. We should levy a carbon tax on anyone who has children to combat this serious threat to life as we know it. :up:

Ziggy Stardust
12-30-2008, 05:05 PM
Proof that life causes global warming.
Try again, genius.
:noob:

Minx
12-30-2008, 05:12 PM
Why can't they just cover the cow-infested areas with plastic-sheet roofing etc, gather up that methane and use it for GOOD instead of stinky evil??

LittleFuzzy
12-30-2008, 05:20 PM
Why can't they just cover the cow-infested areas with plastic-sheet roofing etc, gather up that methane and use it for GOOD instead of stinky evil??

You aren't being serious, right?

Khendraja'aro
12-30-2008, 06:04 PM
Well, catching the methane farts from the cows themselves, not exactly.

But using the manure: certainly.

Minx
12-30-2008, 06:11 PM
You aren't being serious, right?

I let my brain get hijacked by instructables a couple of days ago, it's been in absurd DIY-mode since then.

But yes, I suppose you can use the manure as well :downcast:

Or design less farty cows!





Cost will never stop Americans from eating beef. The only solution is to make lemonade.

[T]Baxter
12-30-2008, 06:16 PM
If you get several cows of different sizes farting in the proper order it sounds just like country music... :cool:

BalticSailor
12-30-2008, 06:17 PM
Why can't they just cover the cow-infested areas with plastic-sheet roofing etc, gather up that methane and use it for GOOD instead of stinky evil??

Try this at home in bed:
Pull a blanket over your head and fart. Squeeze every last cubic centimetre out of you. The more, the better.
That should give you an idea why not ;)

Minx
12-30-2008, 06:29 PM
Yes but 1. Cows aren't people and 2. you're supposed to take the gas away, not leave it right there!

BalticSailor
12-30-2008, 06:39 PM
Yes but 1. Cows aren't people
But they need certain percentage of oxygen in air. Besides, their, umm, emissions contain not only methane, but also thiols which are mildly toxic in greater concentrations.
and 2. you're supposed to take the gas away, not leave it right there!
That would be the difficult part - if you suck it out with some sort of pump, you'll leave the cows in vacuum. The good news is, they won't produce much methane afterwards...
If you try to pump in oxygen at the same time, it'll be mixed with the methane, and firstly, will lower its concentration far below cost-effective value, and secondly, be explosive.

The only way I can imagine this working - if every individual cow is given a respiratory mask, equipped with some sort of feeding tube. Difficult to achieve, and fairly ridiculous as a concept.

']['ear
12-30-2008, 06:42 PM
But using the manure: certainly.

That would interfere with all of that lucrative chemical fertilizer (made from petroleum, BTW) that companies are selling to farmers. Can't have that!

Cost will never stop Americans from eating beef. The only solution is to make lemonade.

Nonsense. Cost has always kept people from eating meat. One of the first things poor people do when they start making some money is eating more meat. We've seen that pattern over and over all around the world as countries develop.

The reason the poor in the US eat so much meat is that we subsidize it in multiple ways. Through the farm bill subsidy of certain grains, we drive feed prices ludicrously low, which allows low pricing. Further, we don't hold meat raisers responsible for their actions, so they dump their waste irresponsibly and cause lots of pollution.

Eliminate that crap (pun not intended) and let people pay the real, non-subsidized market price for their meat, and they wouldn't eat nearly as much. And, in addition to saving the government money from eliminating the subsidies, we'd also drive health costs down, since people would be forced to eat healthier food.

LittleFuzzy
12-30-2008, 06:56 PM
I let my brain get hijacked by instructables a couple of days ago, it's been in absurd DIY-mode since then.

But yes, I suppose you can use the manure as well :downcast:

Or design less farty cows!

As well? My point is kinda that you are not going to be able to catch the excreted methane gas except by keeping the cows in an environment where they will smother themselves.

Nessus
12-30-2008, 07:11 PM
Tubes up their asses

LittleFuzzy
12-30-2008, 07:13 PM
Tubes up their asses

An awful lot of methane comes out of the front end too. Part of the miracle of their four-stage digestion system.

Nessus
12-30-2008, 07:15 PM
How about pigs, then

Minx
12-30-2008, 07:36 PM
['ear;10951991"]Nonsense. Cost has always kept people from eating meat. One of the first things poor people do when they start making some money is eating more meat. We've seen that pattern over and over all around the world as countries develop.

Er, who is responsible for most of the meat-consumption in the US, the poor or the middle class?

I dunno about other countries, but I come from Bangladesh where the middle class glomps down large amounts of beef, and Bangladesh is hardly a wealthy country.

The increased consumption of meat isn't just because Three Poor Labourer suddenly has more money under his mat (although granted that certainly helps).

EDIT: You can just lead the gas along very wide pipes or ensure good ventilation in some other way, although BS makes a good point about explosions.

']['ear
12-31-2008, 10:46 AM
Er, who is responsible for most of the meat-consumption in the US, the poor or the middle class?

Probably a toss-up, though I don't know off hand. But see my bit about subsidy. Prior to gobs of cheap meat, the poor didn't eat much.

I dunno about other countries, but I come from Bangladesh where the middle class glomps down large amounts of beef, and Bangladesh is hardly a wealthy country.

Yes, but you just said middle class, didn't you? That doesn't contradict what I said, unless the poor in Bangladesh are suddenly eating tons of meat.

The increased consumption of meat isn't just because Three Poor Labourer suddenly has more money under his mat (although granted that certainly helps).

I never meant to imply sole cause. Just a strong factor. Clearly the solution is to keep people poor. An added benefit is that will mean more babies to eat. :up:

EDIT: You can just lead the gas along very wide pipes or ensure good ventilation in some other way, although BS makes a good point about explosions.

Cute. But the problem is, in fact, eating meat. It's about the least energy-efficient use of land possible.