A Bank Run Teaches the 'Plain People' About the Risks of Modernity

[Dreadnaught]

Am I crazy or does this sound like something out of a novel?

It's kind of like they went through a compressed version of the industrial revolution in just a few years. :bulb:

Separately, do Amish people pay taxes?


A Bank Run Teaches the 'Plain People' About the Risks of Modernity

Some Amish Lived It Up Until Hard Times Hit; Dinners Out and LED-Appointed Carriages

* PAGE ONE
* JULY 1, 2009

By DOUGLAS BELKIN

TOPEKA, Ind. -- Dan Bontrager is a 54-year-old Amish man with flecks of gray in his long beard. He's also treasurer of the Tri-County Land Trust, an Amish lending cooperative created to support the Amish maxim that community enhances faith in God.

This past spring, Mr. Bontrager was startled when a number of men he has known most of his life tied their horses to the hitching post outside his office and came inside to withdraw their money from the Land Trust.

"We had a run," Mr. Bontrager says. "I don't know if you know anything about the Amish grapevine, but word travels fast. Somebody assumed it was going to happen, and it started a panic."

In Amish country, a bank run is about as familiar as a Hummer or a flat-screen TV. For decades, the more than 200,000 Amish in the U.S. have largely lived apart from the mainstream, emphasizing humility, simplicity and thrift. Known as "the plain people," they travel by horse-drawn buggy, wear homemade clothing and live with very little electricity.

But the Amish in northern Indiana edged into the conventional economy, lured by the high wages of the recreational-vehicle and modular-homes industries. And they wound up experiencing the same economic whiplash millions of other Americans did.

There has been some fraying of the ties that bind the Amish, many in the community say.

"When you have plenty of money, you have a tendency to slowly drift away," says Steve Raber, 37, an Amish owner of a furniture-manufacturing business in Shipshewana, near Topeka. "I think people begin to forget who's really in control."

The Amish in northern Indiana date their community to about 1850. About 20,000 of them live on the flat, fertile farmland 120 miles east of Chicago below Michigan's southern border.

Like Amish in other parts of the U.S., the Indiana community strayed from their traditional reliance on farming in recent decades as their numbers grew and land prices rose. Many opened family businesses, often in furniture and other wood crafts.

By 2007, more than half of Amish men in these parts were working full time in manufacturing, and earning, on average, $30 an hour, says Steven Nolt, a professor at Goshen College in Goshen, Ind., who studies the community.

The great increase in discretionary income spawned a "keeping-up-with-the-Joneses mentality," says Mervin Lehman, 39, an Amish father of four who says he was making more than $50-an-hour and working up to 60 hours a week as an RV plant supervisor before he was laid off in November.

Some Amish bishops in Indiana weakened restrictions on the use of telephones. Fax machines became commonplace in Amish-owned businesses. Web sites marketing Amish furniture began to crop up. Although the sites were run by non-Amish third parties, they nevertheless intensified a feeling of competition, says Casper Hochstetler, a 70-year-old Amish bishop who lives in Shipshewana.

"People wanted bigger weddings, newer carriages," Mr. Lehman says. "They were buying things they didn't need." Mr. Lehman spent several hundred dollars on a model-train and truck hobby, and about $4,000 on annual family vacations, he says. This year, there will be no vacation.

It became common practice for families to leave their carriages home and take taxis on shopping trips and to dinners out.

Some Amish families had bought second homes on the west coast of Florida and expensive Dutch Harness Horses, with their distinctive, prancing gait. Others lined their carriages in dark velvet and illuminated them with battery-powered LED lighting.

Even the tradition of helping each other out began to unravel, Bishop Hochstetler says. Instead of asking neighbors for help, well-to-do Amish began hiring outsiders so they wouldn't have to reciprocate. "Factory work doesn't eliminate fellowship, but it does not encourage togetherness," the bishop says.

Last fall, the recreational-vehicle industry began to lay off workers. Facing financial hardship, the Amish traditionally have sought aid within the community. But with nearly half of households depending on manufacturing income, Amish bishops this year reluctantly decided for the first time that laid-off workers could seek unemployment benefits.

Combined with falling property values, job losses bred concerns that the unemployed would be unable to make their mortgage payments -- and that would cripple the Tri-County Land Trust.

The trust was established in 1993, and is similar to lending arrangements set up in other Amish communities. Only Amish people can join. The trust's 2,100 depositors receive annual interest of 3.2%, while borrowers pay 3.5% interest on loans. There are no credit checks. Monthly mortgage payments can be no more than 33% of a borrower's gross income.

The trust's structure reflects the Amish philosophy of sharing. It isn't insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., but by its own bylaws it maintains at least $1 million in cash reserves. The trust has never exercised its authority to foreclose on a home.

Today the trust has about $40 million in assets that its treasurer, Mr. Bontrager, says are managed conservatively.

Last fall, as layoffs drained income from the community, deposits into the trust fell to about $600,00 from between $1 million and $1.5 million a month, Mr. Bontrager says. In November, the trust suspended lending.

Over the winter, rumors began to circulate that the trust was running out of money. The run, as Mr. Bontrager describes it, began in April. It lasted about six weeks. Mr. Bontrager says about 100 depositors made significant withdrawals, and some emptied their accounts. The $1 million reserve fund was wiped out. The trust hasn't yet resumed lending.

The past year's experiences have left many here shaken. With the unemployment rate in the area reaching 17.8% in April, a growing number of men have left their families for weeks at a time for out-of-state construction jobs. Some younger families have moved to other states.

In Indiana, a back-to-basics movement appears to be taking root. More patches of produce have sprouted behind Amish homes this summer. Restaurants are entertaining fewer Amish customers. Mr. Lehman says neighbors "are more considerate of each other now."

Some men have started their own businesses close to home. Mr. Lehman makes mattresses in his workshop. Harlan Miller, a 34-year-old father of five who was laid off in February, started making fruit butter, which he sells at a local market. Freeman Miller (no relation), 54, who was laid off after 30 years in manufacturing, builds wooden caskets for pets.

"We were all going way too fast," Freeman Miller says. "This has made everybody stop and realize we're just pilgrims here, the Almighty is in charge."

Write to Douglas Belkin at doug.belkin@wsj.com

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124640811360577075.html

[Illusions]

The amish were earning more than me per hour :sour:

[termite]

We been spending most our lives
Living in an Amish paradise
I've churned butter once or twice
Living in an Amish paradise
It's hard work and sacrifice
Living in an Amish paradise
We sell quilts at discount price
Living in an Amish paradise

[CitizenCain]

Separately, do Amish people pay taxes?

In so far as they earn monetary income and/or purchase goods with currency. (And they do pay property tax, too.) Of course, their way of life does tend to avoid taxation in that they can generally skirt the whole monetary system to a significant degree.

The amish were earning more than me per hour :sour:

Me too. I had no idea that RVs and other white trash pursuits could be so lucrative. :bored:

[pedxing]

_Er69b4HMl8

[GGT]

As I understand it, the Amish don't object to taxes (render unto Caesar what is his....) but to insurance schemes outside their community, since it displaces their reliance/trust from within their group to "outsiders". That's why the Trust didn't participate in FDIC.

They probably started the Trust when land costs went thru the roof, and they needed mortgages, which would require PMI with traditional lenders. Prior to the bubble, at least in the Lancaster County Amish, they'd pool money and pay cash for land.

They still pay property tax, income tax, sales tax, etc. Even tho they don't use public schools or welfare/food stamps. If they're self-employed they can use some old exemption from paying SS (it's not a tax but insurance), but if they're employed outside their community they are obliged to "contribute". Even tho they wouldn't draw on the benefits.

People around here used to get honked off about the damage their horses did to roads, and they weren't buying much gas to pay the tax, which offset repairs. But some land preservation people did a study showing how much Amish bring in via tourism, so that quieted down.

Surprised the Indiana bishops let the lines go so loose, with phones and faxes, factory workers and unemployment insurance benefits. That sounds more Mennonite than Amish. But the lines there are blurry, anyway :bulb:

[GGT]

Sorry for the double post but wanted to share an ANECDOTE.

I went to the grocery earlier, and overheard a woman religious talking to the customer service lady. She was from "out of town", and needed cash. All she had were personal checks from her local credit union, and the store was saying they wouldn't honor/cash it.

She was the typical fresh-scrubbed Anabaptist, no make-up, wearing an obviously hand sewn pastel colored dress, very out of date, sensible walking lace-up tie shoes, and a head cap. The white kind of thing they pin to their pinned-up hair, like a bonnet.

She had a cart full of foods, so I assume she had cash to pay, but it was dwindling as they drove along on their journey. They gave her the location of a local credit union, but it got me wondering about the personal check vs credit or debit card.

I remember when using traveler's checks was considered a bright idea. Now I don't even know if those are accepted as real legal tender across the world. Let alone US grocery stores.

:(

[oldmunchkin]

The Amish have a very interesting lifestyle. Most don't own a car, or even know how to drive, but they have no problem with riding in a car with someone else driving. They take care of their "own" but are incredibly generous with "outsiders" who treat them and their religion with respect.

I remember when my ex-step-father-in-law died. The Amish in that community hired a bus and driver to take them to the viewing. The bus made 4 trips to get everyone who wanted to pay their respects to the church where the viewing was held. About a month later, they found out my ex-mother-in-law was going to be evicted from her home, because she couldn't make the mortgage payments. She was elderly and it would have been really hard on her. Some of the elders went to her bank, and paid off the mortgage. When my ex-brother-in-law asked them why they did it, he was told "because they were so good to us and treated us so well in their store."

[GGT]

That's a sweet story munch :) Typical of the Amish and Mennonite. Very community-oriented, benevolent people.

So to Dread's initial question if whether this was a small blip in Anabaptists going thru a compressed industrial revolution, we could ask the same of contemporary people/corporations who are forced to look at the parts of daily life that are failing. And wondering how did we stray so far from our neighbors and common sense that it's all upside down?

If you feel like you're reading a novel, it's because these basic concepts have grown so far from your reality that you think it's romantic fiction.

:(

[oldmunchkin]

From what I remember about the group in Michigan, they had bank accounts for savings, but didn't use features like loans, checks, or debit cards.

If more of us would model our daily lives on their basic concepts of community, I really think our lives would be better. I remember when everyone helped their neighbor(s), whether it was helping in a business when someone was ill or helping to pay medical bills for the person who really couldn't afford to be sick/hurt. Even tho some of those things still happen, usually in small towns, we have strayed a long ways from them. I believe part of it is...it used to be you were born, lived, and died in the same town, now moving across the country is normal.

[littlelolligagged]

They gave her the location of a local credit union, but it got me wondering about the personal check vs credit or debit card.

I remember when using traveler's checks was considered a bright idea. Now I don't even know if those are accepted as real legal tender across the world. Let alone US grocery stores.

:(
I hate it when I get stuck behind people who write checks at the grocery store or whatnot. I fail to see why they choose that over a debit card, or even why stores are still accepting personal checks.

Why use travelers checks when ATMs have very good exchange rates?

[']['ear]

Yeah, we bought a hand-made Amish dining room table and 8 chairs made of cherry. Absofreakinlutely gorgeous.

Funny thing is that this is exactly what the Amish were trying to avoid with their humble lifestyles. What did they think would happen? I'm baffled.

[RandBlade]

I hate it when I get stuck behind people who write checks at the grocery store or whatnot. I fail to see why they choose that over a debit card, or even why stores are still accepting personal checks.

Why use travelers checks when ATMs have very good exchange rates?I don't know any stores in the UK now that still accept cheques. None at all. I believe that within 3 years or so its estimated that the idea of a cheque simply won't exist in this country anymore.

Good riddance too.

[Illusions]

If more of us would model our daily lives on their basic concepts of community, I really think our lives would be better.

You mean, like...sticking with your own kind? :downcast:

[Dreadnaught]

As I understand it, the Amish don't object to taxes (render unto Caesar what is his....) but to insurance schemes outside their community, since it displaces their reliance/trust from within their group to "outsiders". That's why the Trust didn't participate in FDIC.

They probably started the Trust when land costs went thru the roof, and they needed mortgages, which would require PMI with traditional lenders. Prior to the bubble, at least in the Lancaster County Amish, they'd pool money and pay cash for land.

They still pay property tax, income tax, sales tax, etc. Even tho they don't use public schools or welfare/food stamps. If they're self-employed they can use some old exemption from paying SS (it's not a tax but insurance), but if they're employed outside their community they are obliged to "contribute". Even tho they wouldn't draw on the benefits.

That makes sense about the insurance, good call.

Things like this are why I have issues with property taxes. These people basically live off the grid. In theory, they may not have much cash flow. Why tax them just for owning land, instead of their consumption of services?


Surprised the Indiana bishops let the lines go so loose, with phones and faxes, factory workers and unemployment insurance benefits. That sounds more Mennonite than Amish. But the lines there are blurry, anyway :bulb:

Agreed, they definitely began to push the envelope in a big way. I have heard that Indiana Amish are more "modern" than some Pennsylvania Amish, but maybe that as a reverberation of what was being talked about in this article.

I remember when using traveler's checks was considered a bright idea. Now I don't even know if those are accepted as real legal tender across the world. Let alone US grocery stores.

Wow, traveler's checks. I forgot about those! What a concept. A system where you would pay a premium to get a check that was only cashable at a few locations abroad, and if they got stolen it would takes weeks to maybe get your money back. Now when I travel abroad, I bring some cash and a debit card (with a balance that's not too high in case it gets lost/stolen).

I remember when my ex-step-father-in-law died. The Amish in that community hired a bus and driver to take them to the viewing. The bus made 4 trips to get everyone who wanted to pay their respects to the church where the viewing was held. About a month later, they found out my ex-mother-in-law was going to be evicted from her home, because she couldn't make the mortgage payments. She was elderly and it would have been really hard on her. Some of the elders went to her bank, and paid off the mortgage. When my ex-brother-in-law asked them why they did it, he was told "because they were so good to us and treated us so well in their store."

Wow :eek: I assume this wasn't Wyoming?

[pedxing]

if we don't get into space, we'll eventually inevitably exhaust the non-agricultural resources of the planet, modern civilization will collapse, and then the Amish are going to laugh and laugh and laugh.

also, did i mention the zero-g boobies? :haha:

[oldmunchkin]

I hate it when I get stuck behind people who write checks at the grocery store or whatnot. I fail to see why they choose that over a debit card, or even why stores are still accepting personal checks.

Why use travelers checks when ATMs have very good exchange rates?



I don't know any stores in the UK now that still accept cheques. None at all. I believe that within 3 years or so its estimated that the idea of a cheque simply won't exist in this country anymore.

Good riddance too.

Some people, like Mommymunchkin, simply won't have a debit card. I don't know why, since she has a credit card, but whatever. If no place will accept personal checks anymore, what are old people like her going to do?

What I hate is this push for "automatic" payment that all the companies I deal with want me to do. I simply do NOT want to give anyone, regardless of who they are, access to my account. I will pay my bills, via check, so there is no question in my mind it got paid and when it got paid.

You mean, like...sticking with your own kind? :downcast:

No, I mean like knowing your neighbor(s) and helping them out when they need it. It also works the other way, they know you and help you when you need it. My brother-in-law can't even tell you the names of the people he has lived next door to for 20+ years. There is seriously something wrong with that, IMO! :bulb:

Wow I assume this wasn't Wyoming?

No, it was in south-eastern Michigan. There is quite a large Amish population there. But, people in my area of Wyoming do things like that too. :heart:

[Dreadnaught]

Ah. And BTW I agree on the automatic payment thing.

But when it comes to checks, I'm not sure I agree as much. A check is really just a paper authorization for an electronic fund transfer from a specific account. A debit card is basically the same thing, but with a digital signature (the pin code), which can be verified on the spot as opposed to a check.

I personally pay all my bills (except my mortgage) with my debit card through a Web site. I see plenty of older people in Florida who are doing fine with electronic cards.

[littlelolligagged]

If you really object to a debit card that much, pay cash.

[CitizenCain]

Ah. And BTW I agree on the automatic payment thing.

But when it comes to checks, I'm not sure I agree as much. A check is really just a paper authorization for an electronic fund transfer from a specific account.

Yup, and if you have multiple accounts across different financial institutions, odds are you'll be stuck with checks for a fair bit longer than 3 years. I have to use a check anytime I want to move money from one institution to another, and I don't see that changing any time soon, nor can I honestly believe that my financial institutions will get off their asses and work out electronic funds transfers between each other, I think we'll be stuck with checks for a long while, even if we don't use them to buy our groceries anymore.

Really, I don't envisage that anyone will be getting a debit card for their 401k account any time soon, (or their stock portfolio, etc) leaving us stuck with checks to transfer money in and out of our different types of financial accounts, at a minimum.

[littlelolligagged]

I write checks to pay for the kids various school crap (field trips, etc.) and that frustrates me. The school can take over a month to finally getting around to doing anything with them.

[Illusions]

No, I mean like knowing your neighbor(s) and helping them out when they need it. It also works the other way, they know you and help you when you need it. My brother-in-law can't even tell you the names of the people he has lived next door to for 20+ years. There is seriously something wrong with that, IMO! :bulb:

I see nothing wrong with it. Some people just want to be left alone. :bored:

[RandBlade]

Some people, like Mommymunchkin, simply won't have a debit card. I don't know why, since she has a credit card, but whatever. If no place will accept personal checks anymore, what are old people like her going to do? For one she already has a card, she can use that. Secondly she can get a debit card. Thirdly she can use cash. That's at least three solutions. She may now say she won't get a card, but tell her its her only option and she will.

Old people don't like change and love to moan about change. She'll use a card and moan about it. Problem solved.
What I hate is this push for "automatic" payment that all the companies I deal with want me to do. I simply do NOT want to give anyone, regardless of who they are, access to my account. I will pay my bills, via check, so there is no question in my mind it got paid and when it got paid. Why? I pay all my bills I can automatically via Direct Debit, so I have no question in my mind they get paid and when. Unlike a cheque which can be lost in the post, not cashed immediately (then suddenly cashed when you're not counting on it) etc, etc, etc - also I simply don't have to worry about it.
No, I mean like knowing your neighbor(s) and helping them out when they need it. It also works the other way, they know you and help you when you need it. My brother-in-law can't even tell you the names of the people he has lived next door to for 20+ years. There is seriously something wrong with that, IMO! :bulb: I see nothing wrong with that. I know my neighbours, they're OK. However my parents have one neighbour who's a complete nutjob and the house my girlfriend used to live in before we moved in also had a complete nutjob next door. I see no issue with not getting along with them.
Ah. And BTW I agree on the automatic payment thing. I'm surprised! Why :confuser:

Its safer, easier, simpler . . .
But when it comes to checks, I'm not sure I agree as much. A check is really just a paper authorization for an electronic fund transfer from a specific account. A debit card is basically the same thing, but with a digital signature (the pin code), which can be verified on the spot as opposed to a check. Exactly, completely outdated and obsolete.
I personally pay all my bills (except my mortgage) with my debit card through a Web site. I see plenty of older people in Florida who are doing fine with electronic cards. My regular bills (like rent, would be mortgage, electricity, water, council (property) tax, credit card etc) are all paid automatically via Direct Debit. My purchases are put on my Credit Card, which is then paid off in full each month by Direct Debit.
Yup, and if you have multiple accounts across different financial institutions, odds are you'll be stuck with checks for a fair bit longer than 3 years. I have to use a check anytime I want to move money from one institution to another, and I don't see that changing any time soon, nor can I honestly believe that my financial institutions will get off their asses and work out electronic funds transfers between each other, I think we'll be stuck with checks for a long while, even if we don't use them to buy our groceries anymore. Why? Anything like that I'd online.
Really, I don't envisage that anyone will be getting a debit card for their 401k account any time soon, (or their stock portfolio, etc) leaving us stuck with checks to transfer money in and out of our different types of financial accounts, at a minimum. Seriously? What's wrong with online/telephone banking to transfer that sort of stuff.

PS I do not even own a cheque book. I last used a cheque about 5 years ago and expect never to ever have to use one again in my life.

[CitizenCain]

Seriously? What's wrong with online/telephone banking to transfer that sort of stuff.

Nothing, if it's an option.

It isn't always in this country.

[RandBlade]

I'm shocked. Genuinely shocked that in 2009 you can't do something as simple as online banking in America.

[GGT]

As for property taxes....there was a piece in NYT about early Pa legislation--they used to tax bachelors who didn't own property at higher rates, to encourage land ownership and marriage/family.

The Amish could feasibly avoid property tax altogether, if they let "the church" own all their land. But as far as I know, they value private ownership and passing land as legacy to heirs.

As mega-farming took hold, the small farmer and family farm suffered. Their land was worth more zoned commercial or residential than agricultural. It took land preservationists to petition for tax rates and land-use that did not drive the Amish away.

Kind of messy, property taxes :bulb:

[Hazir]

I haven't written a cheque in a decade or longer. I think I still have paper transfer forms for one of my accounts, somewhere buried in a drawer, just in case. But otherwise all my money affairs are taken care of with either direct debit/internet banking (80%) debit card (15%) or credit card (5%). Direct debit by the way can be undone within 15 days of collection. The bank won't ask any questions simply return the money.

I think most Dutch banks don't even issue cheques any longer and the (thank God only) three times I encountered one was when I got a payment from Canada (once) or the US (twice). In all cases the service fees to cash them were so steep that I wondered why they had bothered at all.

Travellers cheques don't really makes sense any longer, but they used to be a good means of carrying currency without the risk of a roll of banknotes at a time that CC's were less widespread.

[GGT]

I made the assumption that this lady was accustomed to writing checks or paying cash at her local stores. Perhaps the vendors are Old Amish and don't have electronic registers, let alone a card swipe.

We've got a few hard-liner hold-outs in the diner business that only accept cash. They don't have to add on what the CC companies charge them in fees, or worry about identity theft or fraud, it keeps their till clean. And they're not even Amish. :p

[DarkWraith]

I'm shocked. Genuinely shocked that in 2009 you can't do something as simple as online banking in America.

I've been doing all my banking online for more than a decade now. Maybe Cain needs a new bank?

[GGT]

I'd never thought about it until now, but I don't think I could pay my property or school taxes on-line even if I wanted to. It's a fairly small municipality, and they mail out the tax bills with instructions to pay by mail with a personal check or money order; or in person with the same, or cash, or a credit card. They stopped accepting some cards (like Discovery).

I know they take electronic payments held in escrow from lenders and third parties, so not sure why it's different.

I also can't pay my municipal trash collection/sewer bill on-line.

:bulb:

[Hazir]

I made the assumption that this lady was accustomed to writing checks or paying cash at her local stores. Perhaps the vendors are Old Amish and don't have electronic registers, let alone a card swipe.

We've got a few hard-liner hold-outs in the diner business that only accept cash. They don't have to add on what the CC companies charge them in fees, or worry about identity theft or fraud, it keeps their till clean. And they're not even Amish. :pActually, where in Turkey people can be seen buying a pack of gum in a cornershop, in Amsterdam a lot of places don't accept them. I know of only one supermarket in the entire city that accepts them. But they are funny in the way that they don' t accept cash.

There is virtually no bill you can't pay online here in Holland.

[GGT]

Wait, who doesn't accept cash?

Weis Markets (one of the biggest grocery chains here) had a huge network crash not too long ago. Big sign on the front door apologizing, that all they could accept was cash. They said it lasted several hours.

The registers still worked, but couldn't accept debit or credit cards. I ended up being one of about 5 other people who could stay to shop. Was kind of eerie. Everyone else left for the Giant a few miles away.

:bulb:

[Hazir]

Wait, who doesn't accept cash?

Weis Markets (one of the biggest grocery chains here) had a huge network crash not too long ago. Big sign on the front door apologizing, that all they could accept was cash. They said it lasted several hours.

The registers still worked, but couldn't accept debit or credit cards. I ended up being one of about 5 other people who could stay to shop. Was kind of eerie. Everyone else left for the Giant a few miles away.

:bulb:The one supermarket that accepts credit cards doesn' t accept cash. All the other supermarkets in this city accept cash but no credit cards. Debit cards are accepted everywhere, absolutely everywhere.

[GGT]

I live where lots of merchants only accept cash. Roadside farmers selling corn or berries or melons, the farmer's market in the city, some bakeries. Even a mom 'n pop ice cream shop.

I don't think my CPA accepts anything but a personal check or cash, either.

But then, I live near Amish country, so......

[oldmunchkin]

Ah. And BTW I agree on the automatic payment thing.

But when it comes to checks, I'm not sure I agree as much. A check is really just a paper authorization for an electronic fund transfer from a specific account. A debit card is basically the same thing, but with a digital signature (the pin code), which can be verified on the spot as opposed to a check.

I personally pay all my bills (except my mortgage) with my debit card through a Web site. I see plenty of older people in Florida who are doing fine with electronic cards.

I guess you have never met Mommymunchkin! :haha: If you think I am stubborn, you would be mistaken...she is stubborn, I am mule-headed! :haha: Yes, she can, and on occasion does, use her credit card...but she usually makes The Kid use his instead, cause she just hates them. She likes to write her own check/pull out her own cash, whatever. She doesn't even like to use a gift card. :confused:

If you really object to a debit card that much, pay cash.

That is not always feasible. Besides, Mommymunchkin can write out a check faster than most people can count out their cash! :D

I write checks to pay for the kids various school crap (field trips, etc.) and that frustrates me. The school can take over a month to finally getting around to doing anything with them.

But, if you do your checkbook right, then it shouldn't matter if they cash it next week or next month or 6 months from now. In your register, it should have already been deducted.

I see nothing wrong with it. Some people just want to be left alone. :bored:

That's fine, but not everyone feels that way. Some of us like to know who the hell is living next door. Besides, did you ever stop to think of the community feeling you get when you actually DO know your neighbors? Of course, The Thing feels like you do...he grew up in Denver and can't even tell you who lived next door to them all thru his childhood...including the people who rented the upstairs apartment of their own house from his parents.

For one she already has a card, she can use that. Secondly she can get a debit card. Thirdly she can use cash. That's at least three solutions. She may now say she won't get a card, but tell her its her only option and she will.

Old people don't like change and love to moan about change. She'll use a card and moan about it. Problem solved.
Why? I pay all my bills I can automatically via Direct Debit, so I have no question in my mind they get paid and when. Unlike a cheque which can be lost in the post, not cashed immediately (then suddenly cashed when you're not counting on it) etc, etc, etc - also I simply don't have to worry about it.
I see nothing wrong with that. I know my neighbours, they're OK. However my parents have one neighbour who's a complete nutjob and the house my girlfriend used to live in before we moved in also had a complete nutjob next door. I see no issue with not getting along with them.

Like I said above, you have not met stubborn until you have met Mommymunchkin. :D That woman is awesome that way. I would have more luck getting my whole house to get up and move a block down the street than I would have convincing her that a debit card is a good thing and more secure.


I'm shocked. Genuinely shocked that in 2009 you can't do something as simple as online banking in America.

Even my little town has online banking. But, there is always the risk of the computers going down, the servers going down, ect. That is the kind of risk I don't really wanna take with my money.

Like I said, I just don't like giving anyone access to my account, regardless of who it is. Maybe there is a glitch in their system one month, so they deduct 2 times from my account, leaving me short to pay my other bills. If I write them a check, they only get paid 1 time. I can always check to see if it's been cashed or not, and can prove it was written if need be. With auto withdrawal, I am at their mercy.

[Hazir]

I live where lots of merchants only accept cash. Roadside farmers selling corn or berries or melons, the farmer's market in the city, some bakeries. Even a mom 'n pop ice cream shop.

I don't think my CPA accepts anything but a personal check or cash, either.

But then, I live near Amish country, so......Actually, I think I read a little article somewhere that supermarkets are considering to stop accepting cash at all or just have one cash register where you can pay with anything else than a debit card.

[GGT]

Actually, I think I read a little article somewhere that supermarkets are considering to stop accepting cash at all or just have one cash register where you can pay with anything else than a debit card.

That's a shame, really. Legal Tender should be just that, IMO. I can see where they may not want lots of cash hanging around, even in a little vault with a sign that says "cashier does not have keys to the vault"

But just as much money gets stolen via debit and credit cards (maybe more?) than cash robberies. Just one hack can get to millions pretty fast. There was something like that not too long ago, a security breach with either a certain card or a chain store, but I can't remember.

It also wasn't too long ago that I noticed some merchants STILL printed out the entire credit card number on the receipt. Right, like that's a safe thing to do.......how well do you trust your food server or bartender?

[RandBlade]

Actually AFAIK the company always prints out the entire card number on the receipt. On their copy. Its only the customer's copy that is mostly blanked out.

As for fraud etc, here in the UK its the banks who're liable for that. If someone fraudulantly were to use my card details, I can appeal it and the money will be refunded to my account automatically.

Cash gets stolen far more than electronic fraud I'd expect.

[GGT]

Great, just what I want, a receipt in some trash bin, in a dark restaurant, where anyone from the grifter at the side bar, to the cleaning staff, can grab a bunch of full card numbers and signatures.

:rolleyes:

I think we can ask Dread how inconvenient it is to establish electronic identity theft.

[Dreadnaught]

I'm shocked. Genuinely shocked that in 2009 you can't do something as simple as online banking in America.

We have online banking here.

But when it comes to automatic payments, my issue mainly is that I want to "push the button" and record all of my expenditures in my budget. I want my own duplicate records, and to always be the one saying, "yes, I am paying that bill" even if I'm never going to decide not to pay that bill.

I'm also not comfortable with systems that can automatically deduct from any of my bank accounts. A few months ago my electric utility had their payment Web site hacked by Ukranian hackers. Had my banking information been stored on that site for automatic deduction, I would have been that much more vulnerable.

As for property taxes....there was a piece in NYT about early Pa legislation--they used to tax bachelors who didn't own property at higher rates, to encourage land ownership and marriage/family.

The Amish could feasibly avoid property tax altogether, if they let "the church" own all their land. But as far as I know, they value private ownership and passing land as legacy to heirs.

As mega-farming took hold, the small farmer and family farm suffered. Their land was worth more zoned commercial or residential than agricultural. It took land preservationists to petition for tax rates and land-use that did not drive the Amish away.

Kind of messy, property taxes :bulb:

Agreed. This is a Lewk point that I actually kinda agree with; there really is no way for anyone in this country to just detach and live their own "subsistence" life because they would still owe taxes on the land they are cultivating in effective isolation from others.

Great, just what I want, a receipt in some trash bin, in a dark restaurant, where anyone from the grifter at the side bar, to the cleaning staff, can grab a bunch of full card numbers and signatures.

:rolleyes:

I think we can ask Dread how inconvenient it is to establish electronic identity theft.

True. But to be fair, most states require that the full credit card be blocked on the receipt with asterisks. Though I get nervous at restaurants when the "merchant copy" of the slip has my full number. I always hand-deliver that back to their desk, never leave that on the table. My experience has made me a bit paranoid.

[oldmunchkin]

The Kid used his debit card at a gas pump in Casper 2 weeks ago. He cleared it all out after fueling, like you are supposed to, and still got "swiped". Luckily, the bank here knows he doesn't use his card that often, so they called him and shut down his card. That's what scares the smurf outta me about those cards...too easy to "swipe", or whatever they do, and drain the account.

[Hazir]

The Kid used his debit card at a gas pump in Casper 2 weeks ago. He cleared it all out after fueling, like you are supposed to, and still got "swiped". Luckily, the bank here knows he doesn't use his card that often, so they called him and shut down his card. That's what scares the smurf outta me about those cards...too easy to "swipe", or whatever they do, and drain the account.
Yeah, but that' s the old type with just the magnetic strip. That' s being phased out on this side of the pond. The newer cards with chips aren' t so vulnerable.

[CitizenCain]

I've been doing all my banking online for more than a decade now. Maybe Cain needs a new bank?

My bank's fine. My credit union's behind the times, but the real problem is my so called investment accounts. The guys holding my 401k, stock/bond portfolios and like that there.

With the market being so lousy, almost everything has a high (>50%) cash or cash equivalency content, so I can access them mostly like a normal bank account, only there's not a whole lot of effort put into making the accounts accessible electronically yet. (It's easy to make automated e-deposits into them, but not so much with the e-withdrawals.) I suppose it's because they're supposed to be investment accounts that you don't take funds out of, well, hardly ever.

Yeah, but that' s the old type with just the magnetic strip. That' s being phased out on this side of the pond. The newer cards with chips aren' t so vulnerable.

In fact, when I was visiting the UK, most of the merchants I tried to use my debit card at looked at me like I had 3 eyes when I tried to use my card because it didn't have a chip.

[Dreadnaught]

What is this chip? :confused:

[Nessus]

What is this chip? :confused:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/SinWithSebastian/nimetn.png

[RandBlade]

Chip & Pin, there's a chip on the card that you insert into a reader (Rather than swiping the card) and then you enter your PIN number rather than sign for it, just the same as you would when withdrawing cash at an ATM.

Much more secure as the chip is far more secure than the magnetic strip and PIN numbers are safer than signatures (since anyone can copy a signature that's on the card and most merchants don't bother checking them anyway).

EDIT: Yes, see above.

[Dreadnaught]

Ah, we do have those. Though really I don't think the issue is the chip as much as making all machines that read cards actually ask for the PIN. In the US only debit cards get PINs and not every machine recognizes the difference, so sometimes my card is read as a credit card and other times as a debit card.

[Hazir]

Ah, we do have those. Though really I don't think the issue is the chip as much as making all machines that read cards actually ask for the PIN. In the US only debit cards get PINs and not every machine recognizes the difference, so sometimes my card is read as a credit card and other times as a debit card.I'm pretty certain that by now here in Europe it's near impossible to use either without a PIN. The magnetic strip type card is deemed unsafe as it can be copied with rather low-tech means.

Holland is a bit behind the curve on debit cards with chips because the debit card was such a succes here that everybody (everybody) uses them everywhere. Thus making the switch over a bit of an operation.

The success of the debit card also made the country almost hostile territory for credit card use.

[Cedar Point]

Actually, I think I read a little article somewhere that supermarkets are considering to stop accepting cash at all or just have one cash register where you can pay with anything else than a debit card.
I know that a lot of airlines have stopped accepting cash for in-flight food.