SPOILER TIME - the TGS thread

[Keelinnea]

How could there be no mention of Berelain when in every other book she is glued to Perrin? I would have thought she would be near by at least even with his whiny wife back. Was disappointed that they didn't have at least a look happen between the two women.

And I'll admit, I shed a tear when Verin died. I rather liked her.

[Parmenio]

Originally Posted by Keelinnea

How could there be no mention of Berelain when in every other book she is glued to Perrin? I would have thought she would be near by at least even with his whiny wife back. Was disappointed that they didn't have at least a look happen between the two women.

Wow, great idea, isn't Perrin chillin' with the WC's, Galad's WC's? Also isn't Berelain supposed to hook up with some hot young dude wearing white?

There you go people, Berelain was hooking up with Galad at the end of the book, it just wasn't shown, it's about freakin' time!

[Dato'vs]

oh yeah, that's right. they're both male... ha! now why was i under the impression one was female and the other male to begin with?!

There you go people, Berelain was hooking up with Galad at the end of the book, it just wasn't shown, it's about freakin' time!

i like. That would be make sense and be typical, Galad and Berelain hooking up. hear hear.

[Keelinnea]

Now if only Faile had died.....all would be well in my world.

[The Bull man]

Yeay my 1st post on the book forum

Dont really like faile ... and wouldnt mind seeing her disapear somehow.
All in all one of the best books I read in the past couple of years

I was accualy surprised about howmuch I liked the story, I have read and reread WoT several times over the past (yikes has it been this long) years.
When it became clear BS was going to finish WoT I wanted to know his way of telling a story so I read the mistborne books and quite liked them.

TGS was a pleasure to read and I liked the imput BS had and cant wait for the next book
It's remarkable how one can wait years for a book to come and then read it in a day of two (sorry had to work when it was delivered )

I disagree with Gawyn being a useless toon, I dont think his story is finished somehow, he made up his mind in TGS and I am convinced his role will expand a little in the next book.
I missed Galad, as RJ started his last ever book with him I was left with a sence of neglect in TGS .... might be just me.

It is being said alot the Verin's note contains the whereabouts of the Horn but wouldnt that be abit to obvious ? Even Mat knows its in the WT, aswell as El EG en Nyn.
It wouldnt surprise me if it contained help to get moiraine or somehow contains information about the Last Battle. I am more inclinded to believe the last.

Anyway I loved the book and eagerly awaiting the next

[DomaniLass]

Ok so.. Maiden_Aviendha (who hasn't posted here since about 2002, is my guess, but is a looong time friend of mine) and I ended up reading TGS in pace with each other, or close to it. So she and I had some discussions along the way and here are some of the thoughts we came up with as we read and discussed TGS.

* First and foremost, for me, this is the first time in at least 4+ books that I have actually liked Egwene. The storyline, and the writing, brought light and life back into the character that was much needed. I enjoyed her arc (good thing, really, since that was like 70% of the book content).

* Loved the little bits of humor that WoT is well known for- as Mat explained woman logic in a tale of playing dice with a woman. That cracked me up. Love those little pieces that get thrown into the story. Of course with the first Mat chapter I was itching for their quest to find Moiraine to occur.. of course it was in vain but throughout the entire book, up until the very last line on the ver last page I held my breath in hope that it would happen. Of course, after finishing it and revisiting some of the Mat chapters, I truly do believe it is going to happen NEXT* book. (* Disclaimer: I am a diehard Red Sox fan who's moto, prior to 2004, was always "There's always next year", I have somehow translated that to WoT around LoC to "There always next book" on the topic of Moiraine <.<).

* The snippits of the pockets of evil left me chilled. Especially the town that Mat and company enter that one night. That was insane, simply insane, and definitely portrayed how much the DO's touch affects the world. The bits with the Tower were also a little startling, since it was happening to the home of the Aes Sedai and there was no way to stop it. Especially the scene with Leane *shudder*

* The scene with the Forsaken at the very start of the book was an interesting bit, especially with Demandred. I'm very curious to know where he's positioned himself. Especially after getting a peak at him from the viewpoint of Graendal. I definitely felt like that chapter set us up for a showdown between Graendel and Rand.. but never saw what happened coming. That was insane and a brilliant way to depict Rand's emotional withdrawal from the world and just how callous he had become. Not only did he zap an entire fortress full of people, but he also "fought" her in a very dishonorable fashion--yes, I know Graendal wasn't exactly the same as two armies meeting in battle, but Rand still would've been horrified in fighting a woman like that just a few books back, and many people would find his actions there lacking any sort of honor, even if it WAS one of the Forsaken. He did it all so casually too.

* FINALLY- with Siuan and Gareth. Good coupling and I've seen it coming from the get go but bot characters are incredibly stubborn. I also like that Gareth understands Siuan- for instance his thought about how she is a loyal person but what oaths she breaks she breaks because they are not the priority in the moment, etc.

* On the same line of thought we're both supremely worried about Lan, and a vision that Min had of Nynaeve standing over a grave. IT's too much to hope that they get a happy ending, I suppose.

* Reunification of the White Tower- been waiting for this all book, the set up was supberb though. Egwene's intense desire to see the Tower whole and her willingness to sacrifice everything to achieve that goal was really commendable and brought life back into a character I'd all but given hope up on. I also liked the setup of Silviana, and that they humanized the Reds again, that they're not all power hungry idiots and that they can be reasonable. Also I liked how they showcased some Ajahs we never got to know that well- especially the Whites. And showcased how not all Ajah members fit a stereotype (like Saerin and the Browns). This view of the White Tower was the most complete view in the series and I really enjoyed this arc.

* Verin- O M F G. So yes, there was speculation some time ago about whehter Verin or Moiraine were Black. I knew Moiraine wasn't- that would've been the one absolute greatest shock of the entire series. But I couldn't buy into Verin being one.It just didn't fit her character fror me, but as the tale unravelled between her and Egwene I was shocked, awed, heartbroken and then vindicated within the matter of 2 pages. Verin was Black for all the right reasons. Turns out it wasn't something she could truly avoid and instead of subcoming to the Shadow and evil she twisted her objective and loyalty to fit her needs. Verin was true to the Light to the very end. The list she compiled was the sum of her work over the years at the Tower and was positively brilliant (the fact that she only missed 3 Blacks within the Rebels was spectacular). I think she also did Egwene an amazing service by presenting her with that list, and allowing Egwene to make the Tower whole once more. I'm in love with the way her character played out and she remains, with ease, one of my Top 10 (maybe even 5) characters in the series.

* Verin's letters to Mat? I'm supremely curious to know what she did here. Could she have used the same logic to write these letters as she did to spill her guts to Egwene? I really don't know, and one would imagine that they happened in succession to each other time wise in the series. I doubt that's the case but I am eager to see what kind of instructions she gave him, and if they were of her own accord or had to do with her being a Darkfriend.

* Verin's revelations about the Black Ajah: I thought the dispersion of the Blacks Verin discovered was interesting. Red and Green had the most. We all kind of expected the Red (for one thing, they didn't have Warders they might have to turn or hide it from), but the Greens were a bit of a surprise. Or maybe not, maybe they were targetted because they were the Battle Ajah and would be the White Tower's first line of defense against the Dark One. Seems kind smart to get involved with them and rot them from the inside out. We also know that there is still one Black amongst Rand's troupe of Aes Sedai. I wonder how she'll betray him.

* Rand- I understand his 'breaking' after the Semirhage incident. That entire scene was chilling, when she collared him and then made him try and kill Min. The revelation that Rand can touch the True Source is HUGE, overwhelming and I think will be a big key to how this series ends (and hopefully as to how he defeats the DO). His entire arc this book was chilling. Each chapter he was in left me shivering or just a little off base. Starting with the early Semirhage ones, going on to the Graendal masacre, and finally the ending with Tam. His confrontation with Tam chilled me even more deeply than when he was collared by Semirhage and forced to nearly kill Min (meh, I admit I've never been a fan of Min). I understand he's ****ed at being manipulated but now he's just getting paranoid. Should Cadsuanne have done that? Maybe not. But were Tam's intentions in the right place? Oh, absolutely. I have a feeling that's not the last we'll see of Rand and Tam and I'm eager to see what can be done. I also like that Tam's take is that Rand doesn't have to die, and he forced Rand to question WHY, which I think was important to Rand's progression as a character.

* Min's revelation about Callendar, and the trio needed to wield it? I've had quite a few thoughts about that but I feel like the strongest one (Maiden_Aviendha brought this up), is that it would be Saidin, Saidar & True Source.


And finally, a snapshot of the parts I enjoyed in this book:
favorite character: Egwene
favorite arc: White Tower
favorite moment: Verin's admission

[Sei_taer]

Hmm,... Mat's going to the tower of get what you want and Verin kinda hints about coming back... Think she did it more than once, wouldn't surprise me to much if he got a tower manual

I am not eager for death; there are still things I need to do. Fortunately, I have set several of them in motion to be .. seen to in case I do not return. Right before she dies

in case....

Still think Rand will be Tamyrlin and do the veggie song with the Tinkers to

Didn't the egghead have a dream about washing Rands feet...

Did the friggin colors appear after Rand where spanking himself with Callandor ?

three become one, cut of one leg of the tripod and the rest will fall, dream the same dreams and now get visions of eachothers....

[Sei_taer]

Scary that Mat is in Caemlyn, if he's becoming some friggin Marshal General of Andor... Elayne always had bad influences on him..

[Basel Gill]

Hi DomaniLass - Rand weilded the True Power (what the DO offers). The True Source is Saidar/Saidin.

[Randomizer]

Good book!

Most of the interesting points have already been covered, as expected.

I was hoping to get to see Moiraine but that'll have to wait I guess.
How sinister of RJ and Brandon to mention her so much, yet avoid the actual rescue.

I hadn't considered Rand's moods to be linked to the food spoilage, but it's possible I suppose.

Plotwise, it seemed fairly slow paced in the beginning but it picked up nearing the end.

+ Two forsaken taken care of.
+ Cadsuane's plan for Rand seems to have worked.
+ Egwene sorted up the tower issue.
+ Mat is well on his way to invent cannons - I wonder if they'll actually have some significance in the last battle.
+ Elaida being captured by the seanchan.

- Gawyn is useless as always.

[DeathWalkingtWt]

Originally Posted by Basel Gill

Hi DomaniLass - Rand weilded the True Power (what the DO offers). The True Source is Saidar/Saidin.

True Power = DO
True Source or One Power = Wheel of Time
Light Power (???) = Creator (???)

Remember what Rand uses in Book 1? I sure do. Was that the True Power? I don't know! I don't think so, however. Rand didn't have a big voice go "NO. NOT YET. IT IS NOT HERE." or something similar. I think that was the Light Power!

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted by Mahram

<snip>
The one thing that bugged me throughout was 'Bloody Ashes.' It's BLOOD AND ASHES. Not a huge thing, but constant use was a bit distracting when I kept hearing it in my head as B&A, but was reading it as Bloody Ashes.

That's it for now. Is it November 2010 yet?

Throughout the series, I believe all these combinations have been used:
Blood and ashes
Blood and bloody ashes
Bloody ashes
(I'll have to find some sort of digital form of the series to verify)

I suppose Bloody ashes may not have been in the books, but Blood and bloody ashes certainly has, and the leap from that to just Bloody ashes isn't very large.

[DomaniLass]

Originally Posted by Basel Gill

Hi DomaniLass - Rand weilded the True Power (what the DO offers). The True Source is Saidar/Saidin.

Thanks for the correction Me and my terminology are often off.

[Basel Gill]

Thanks for the correction Me and my terminology are often off.

No worries! Just a small nit-pick.

Remember what Rand uses in Book 1? I sure do. Was that the True Power? I don't know! I don't think so, however. Rand didn't have a big voice go "NO. NOT YET. IT IS NOT HERE." or something similar. I think that was the Light Power!

Moiraine flat tells Rand and company that the stuff in the Eye of the World was the essence of Saidan (by Calvin Kleine).

[Nevman]

According to Ideal Seek, blood and bloody ashes has been used throughout the series, and has not been shortened to just bloody ashes before. Saying that, blood and bloody flaming ashes was used once in aCoS.

As Basil Gill said, in tEotW Rand was channelling pure saidin from the Eye of the World. This pool was created by AoL Aes Sedai, during the breaking I believe, at the cost of their own lives. I don't think we ever did find out precisely why they created it, and Rand used it all in his fight with Aginor and Ishamael.

I don't remember Verin hiding the Horn. I assume this was after Fain took back his dagger?

Sei_taer: According to the WoTFAQ, there have been no dreams regarding Egwene or anyone washing Rand's feet. No viewings from Min either.

Regarding Verin, that is very interesting, and something I completely missed. I wonder if it ties in with one of Egwene's dreams regarding Mat:

tPoD, chapter 15, "Stronger than Written Law", p328. Orbit PB.

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended . . . She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

Might he have to choose between Verin and Moiraine? Can't quite see how that could happen, unless the Eelfinn can also bring someone back from the dead?

As for your question regarding the colours, I'm afraid I don't understand your question.

The Bull man, welcome to the book forum. The beer is in the fridge, and the nuts are all over the board.

The Adversary, I agree with regard to Demandred, as stated earlier. I don't think he is hiding as anyone else. Instead, he is probably manipulating people from the shadows.

[Basel Gill]

Sei_taer: According to the WoTFAQ, there have been no dreams regarding Egwene or anyone washing Rand's feet. No viewings from Min either.

From The Shadow Rising, CH 19, Wavedancer's Sailmistress and Windfinder explaining the Jendai Prophecy to Nynaeve and Elayne.

“The Prophecy is being fulfilled. He is the Coramoor. Aes Sedai serve him. You are proof of that, that you are here in this city. That is in the Prophecy as well. ‘The White Tower shall be broken by his name, and Aes Sedai shall kneel to wash his feet and dry them with their hair.’ ”

The WoT FAQ needs amending if it missed something this obvious.

[Basel Gill]

Oh - and I was running off fuzzy memories about Verin knowing where the Horn is hidden. In TDR when Verin brings the Horn before Suian Sanche, Suian tells her that the two of them would hide teh Horn where only they knew where it would be.

What I don't remember is whether it was in the same room as Padan Fain's dagger when he went to get it, and whether Alvarian knows where it is. I don't think so. I think Verin and Suian remain(ed) the only 2 Aes Sedai who know where the Horn is at this time...

[DeathWalkingtWt]

Originally Posted by Basel Gill

Moiraine flat tells Rand and company that the stuff in the Eye of the World was the essence of Saidan (by Calvin Kleine).

Then who is the big voice, and what is the special light-stuff that Rand channels? It's NOT just run of the mill Saidin. Rand channels Saidin then gets the special stuff somehow. I need a digital version of the book. Being in college sucks, it means I can't go look the stuff up!

EDIT: Hurray for e-books! Behold:

His sword was in his hand. Not the heron-mark blade, but a blade of light, a blade of the Light. Even as he raised it, a fiery white bolt shot from the point, as if the blade itself had reached out. It touched the nearest Fade, and blinding candescence filled the chamber, shining through the Halfmen like a candle through paper, burning through them, blinding his eyes to the scene. From the midst of the brilliance, he heard a whisper. “Thank you, my son. The Light. The blessed Light.”

Definitely not just Saidin.

[Dato'vs]

“Thank you, my son. The Light. The blessed Light.”

As crazy as it sounds, could it be the creator?

[Shadar]

Name all the great military leaders/generals who are married.

[Parmenio]

Originally Posted by Dato'vs

As crazy as it sounds, could it be the creator?

No. (I was going to do a one word answer but it said I had to have minimum of 4 characters).

[DeathWalkingtWt]

Originally Posted by Parmenio

No. (I was going to do a one word answer but it said I had to have minimum of 4 characters).

Yes. It is probably something derived directly from him. It has basically always been my contention that what Rand used there is analogous to the creator in the same way that the True Power is analogous to the Dark One.

[Parmenio]

I just realized that my sig has been bleeped! WTF, i've had that thing since I started and they just started to bleep it, ruins the whole freakin' point.

Originally Posted by DeathWalkingtWt

Yes. It is probably something derived directly from him. It has basically always been my contention that what Rand used there is analogous to the creator in the same way that the True Power is analogous to the Dark One.

As for this, all I can say is that it doesn't seem like RJ's style to have the creator step in. I don't pay attention to all of what he says, but I thought that he even said his creator doesn't step in. Too Deus Ex Machina if you ask me. Also i'd be willing to put money on the fact that the "creator" won't show up in the last couple books (we can call them spacebucks if you want .

[Parmenio]

Originally Posted by Shadar

Name all the great military leaders/generals who are married.

Odd request. Mat and Bashere are, Ituralde doesn't appear to be, Nial is dead and wasn't, Gareth might as well be, and I can't think of the last guy, I know he's a borderlander Shinar's (sic) general?

[Dato'vs]

Parmenio, your turn to roll the dice.

[Shadar]

@Parmenio - Sorry about that - was meant to go into the Wot POP Quiz post.

Thanks for the answer.

[tomiathon]

just finished last night, got to say I was quite impressed. a little slow to start, but man did it deliver in the end!

what I didn't like so much:
several early parts of the book (Hinderstap, etc) seemed to be just filler.
Semi and Graendal were offed too quickly.

what I did like:
Verin!! Woofreakinghoo!
the Tower/Rebel plotline has really been the most innteresting to me since about book 8, and it was awesome in TGS. Egwene sometimes seemed a little unreal, but other times was great, enough to make me overlook the forced bits. Siuan and Gareth bonding was also good.
Rand with Tam and on Dragonmount was solid. didn't care for much of his bit until that point, but that was good.
getting to see some more of the culture of the Seanchan with Tuon raising Beslan to the High Blood, becoming Empress, etc was pretty cool.
good comic relief with Mat, though I'm not a fan of his. sometimes it got a little overdone with Talmanes though.

the big unanswered question that immediately sprang to my mind is who took the male a'dam from Cadsuane's box? I can't really think it was Elza, though maybe she was in a position at some point to see the traps laid on it, idk. while I'm pretty sure we can be confident she's not a darkfriend, the ONLY channeller we know for certain has seen Cadsuane weave those traps is Sorilea (though her ability to channel is so weak she quite possibly couldn't even do enough to disarm the traps, though I suspect it takes less strength and more knowledge that the weaves are there). that leaves the possibility of one of the other Aes Sedai followers of Cadsuane being a darkfriend, or perhaps one of the Forsaken (Ishy or Graendal being the most likely, though Demandred or Mesaana would have more interest in freeing her - but why not try collaring Rand themselves if they went that far). I suppose SH also, being that he's the one that freed Semi. and I suppose that Verin having mysterious knowledge that this had to happen is also a remote possibility, though we have absolutely no evidence that she ever came to Arad Doman secretly.

of course it could have been that Darkfriend Min, too.

[Parmenio]

Originally Posted by tomiathon

the big unanswered question that immediately sprang to my mind is who took the male a'dam from Cadsuane's box? I can't really think it was Elza, though maybe she was in a position at some point to see the traps laid on it, idk. while I'm pretty sure we can be confident she's not a darkfriend, the ONLY channeller we know for certain has seen Cadsuane weave those traps is Sorilea (though her ability to channel is so weak she quite possibly couldn't even do enough to disarm the traps, though I suspect it takes less strength and more knowledge that the weaves are there). that leaves the possibility of one of the other Aes Sedai followers of Cadsuane being a darkfriend, or perhaps one of the Forsaken (Ishy or Graendal being the most likely, though Demandred or Mesaana would have more interest in freeing her - but why not try collaring Rand themselves if they went that far). I suppose SH also, being that he's the one that freed Semi. and I suppose that Verin having mysterious knowledge that this had to happen is also a remote possibility, though we have absolutely no evidence that she ever came to Arad Doman secretly.

I thought that it was Graendal, because Elsa told Semi that she was supposed to tell her that she was "compulsed" or something to that effect (don't have my book so can't confirm that though).

We know that the only people that use that skill are Semi, who obviously couldn't have done it, and Graendal (Verin uses a very small primitive weave that wouldn't be that strong IIRC). Doesn't seem unlikely that Graendal would have helped Semi out.

[Parmenio]

Originally Posted by Shadar

@Parmenio - Sorry about that - was meant to go into the Wot POP Quiz post.

Thanks for the answer.

No Idea what I got myself into, I'll post something in the other thread then.

[DeathWalkingtWt]

Originally Posted by Parmenio

I thought that it was Graendal, because Elza told Semi that she was supposed to tell her that she was "compulsed" or something to that effect (don't have my book so can't confirm that though).

We know that the only people that use that skill are Semi, who obviously couldn't have done it, and Graendal (Verin uses a very small primitive weave that wouldn't be that strong IIRC). Doesn't seem unlikely that Graendal would have helped Semi out.

Sorry, I missed why we ruled out Semirhage getting it herself?