Who killed the Tinkers?

[Talor Karos]

Tsk tsk... I'm a sucker for cliffhangers... So, I guess I'll bite!

Who?

[The Adversary]

Originally Posted by Parmenio

Actually there were no Whitecloaks around the area they were massacred, this was book six when Mat was traveling with the Band down to the army in Tear, I don't recall any Whitecloak problems around this area. If you know of any tell me.

I also don't recall any dragonsworn around this area at all. Mat was on the wrong side of the River Erinin IIRC, and the Dragonsworn were roaming around Amadicia, Ghealdan, and had just barely busted into Murandy (Mat just got the news of them burning people in Murandy) which is not even close to where Mat was.

I just re-read Lord of Chaos and Pedron Niall tells Balwer that the largest army of "Dragonsworn" the world had ever seen was about to descend upon that area. They were of course whitecloaks out of uniform and posing as Altarans and Amadicians, and Taraboners. And yes there were Dragonsworn in the area since Rand told Mat himself to gather any dragonsworn in he found or else they would simply turn bandit.

[Parmenio]

The Adversary

I just re-read Lord of Chaos and Pedron Niall tells Balwer that the largest army of "Dragonsworn" the world had ever seen was about to descend upon that area. They were of course whitecloaks out of uniform and posing as Altarans and Amadicians, and Taraboners. And yes there were Dragonsworn in the area since Rand told Mat himself to gather any dragonsworn in he found or else they would simply turn bandit.

What "area" are you talking about? The thing is that Mat was on the wrong side of the river, way over by the Spine of the World. I have never denied that there were Dragonsworn in a particular area (and they were closer to Amadicia, they were about to be spread out, but the situation changed rapidly, so they never could extend their wings), it depends on what area you are talking about.

Also even if that is what Pedron said (I am sure that is what he said too) how many of these people would have been that far out of position?

I mean it is comic. I picture some WC posers pretending to be Dragonsworn, so they run right through everyone like a knife through warm butter, right over some AS (who were on the other side of the river from Mat) and headlong into some Tinkers, kill those Tinkers (in a deliberate ambush I might add, this wasn't just some wanton distruction), then vanish without a trace??!!! Hardly.

Especially since they have no travelling ability, it would have taken them some time to spread as far as Mat was.

It has been a while since I did a full reread, but the point of a Dragonsworn, or a Dragonsworn imposter is to create mindless chaos, not deliberate massacreing of some Tinkers, then not tell anyone about it.

I am reminded of Dr. Strangelove after the Nukes have been launched by the US agasinst the Russians. The Russians tell the US they have an automatic doomsday device that will destroy the world if they are ever attacked, to which the President of the US finds it incredulous that the whole reason makes sense "only if you tell everyone about it"! It makes no sense to send an Army of pretend Dragonsworn to create Chaos then cover up your massacre so no one knows what you did.

Good try though Adversary, but I don't see it.

[Parmenio]

Come on take your best shot, this is a genuine mystery we got here..... (aka *bump*)

[The Adversary]

Originally Posted by Parmenio

It makes no sense to send an Army of pretend Dragonsworn to create Chaos then cover up your massacre so no one knows what you did.

Good try though Adversary, but I don't see it.

What cover-up?
An army comes upon a bunch of massacred tinkers. The bodies are not buried, and no effort has been made to clean up the scene.
I'm sure you will explain to me how it is that you view that as being very secretive.
The army that finds them is not from around there and so to them it is a mystery, but probably not to everyone else in the area. It wasn't the Seanchan, because, the Tinkers would have simply given the oaths that the Seanchan require.
It was not the Aiel since they avoid the Lost Ones. Even the Shaido would not come near them, and if they would, at least some of the Tinkers would have been made Gai'shain, and we would have seen evidence of that.

So your only real candidates are so-called Dragonsworn or Whitecloaks pretending to be Dragonsworn.

[Parmenio]

Originally Posted by The Adversary

What cover-up?
An army comes upon a bunch of massacred tinkers. The bodies are not buried, and no effort has been made to clean up the scene.
I'm sure you will explain to me how it is that you view that as being very secretive.

You are forgetting the obvious cover-up, they weren't massacred, they were deliberatly targeted in such a way that all of them died so the story about who killed them died with them.

Then you have the obvious "Tell the Dragon Reborn" written in blood, which begs the question why? I suppose you think it obvious that all Tinkers have some kind of bond with the DR, and they were just telling him that they were dead now and he doesn't have to worry about them anymore?

It was not the Aiel since they avoid the Lost Ones. Even the Shaido would not come near them, and if they would, at least some of the Tinkers would have been made Gai'shain, and we would have seen evidence of that.

So your only real candidates are so-called Dragonsworn or Whitecloaks pretending to be Dragonsworn.

Yeah my options are "so-called Dragonsworn" who I have demonstrated were leagues away (yeah I suppose something as elementary as proximity doesn't really matter anymore. I mean before we lock someone up for a crime, getting their wearabouts is a waste, right?).

I also find it odd to that the Dragonsworn would massacre a people that obviously accept the Dragon Reborn, and are so tight with him that one decides to leave him a message!

The other option is the WC, another group that I have demonstrated was nowhere near them, and who would have had to deal with AS (on the other side of the river) before they even came upon the Tinkers.

Also we know that WC will kill and massacre, but they always have a reason, they have never gone into a place and just said, OK lets kill everyone then ride away. Why kill them, because they are just bloodthirsty savages that kill at the drop of a hat?

They aren't savages, they are ideologues, which means they don't kill for bloodlust they kill for an idea and a reason, if they killed these Tinkers they had a reason, I would very much like to know that reason. Your concept of "they don't need one, they just massacre people for fun" lacks any understanding of what they are supposed to represent.

Actually all are candidates, that means that so far we have no one that stands out from the pack, at least that is what it looks like when evidence is a prerequisite.

[The Adversary]

Originally Posted by Parmenio

You are forgetting the obvious cover-up, they weren't massacred, they were deliberatly targeted in such a way that all of them died so the story about who killed them died with them.

How do you know they all died? All that remained were the dead, but some might have fled, as the Tinkers in the Two Rivers fled the trollocs. And they did not return to bury their dead either. We do know that the people who commited this atrocity were not all that thorough, since one person at least remained alive when the attackers left. The one who wrote the message of which you speak. So the attackers did not stick around long after their deed, or perhaps they were chasing the few survivors. We do not see any survivors, but absence of proof is not proof of absence.

[Parmenio]

Originally Posted by The Adversary

How do you know they all died? All that remained were the dead, but some might have fled, as the Tinkers in the Two Rivers fled the trollocs. And they did not return to bury their dead either. We do know that the people who commited this atrocity were not all that thorough, since one person at least remained alive when the attackers left. The one who wrote the message of which you speak. So the attackers did not stick around long after their deed, or perhaps they were chasing the few survivors. We do not see any survivors, but absence of proof is not proof of absence.

What we do know is that the attackers were on horses, and they left, if there were any Tinkers they would have been hunted down and attacked. I don't see why you can't see that they weren't just massacered they were deliberatly annihilated. One group of people attacked the Tinkers, and chased them right into a counter attack. So this wasn't some mindless massacre, or someone getting out of hand, this was very deliberate, they wanted none to escape.

As for the one that got away, they perhaps didn't have time to go and check every corpse to see if it was alive, they had an army descending on them, so they had to split. Even so the man never lived long enough to tell anyone.

As for you absense of proof, all the evidence that we have leads to some kind of motive that I have yet to hear. I have destroyed everything that has been tossed at me, I am not making evidence up, I am letting it speak for itself (also we do have evidence, they are few but what we do have doesn't point to any of the usual suspects).

To me it seems like most people just passed over the events, and whenever I ask them what is up, they always just toss out all the usual people, even though none of them have any proof at all against them.

[Dato'vs]

I don't think there were any tracks. Which could mean that the Darkhound pack was already running around the countryside.

That reminds me... When Perrin is hunting the Shaido, he notices a pack of about 50 Darkhounds circle his camp. I never clearly understood why the pack simply did not ravage right through the camp or where they in fact were heading?

[The Adversary]

A pack that large would be extremely hard to control.
Therefore that points to someone who has an extreme level of control.
Obviously one of the Forsaken.
The Darkhounds were looking for Rand....pretty obvious, and they had been looking for some time...thier hunt made more difficult since Rand learned to Travel...and yet they probably had come across Perrin's scent on occasion, coupled with Rand's. Ergo the interest in Perrin's camp. But Perrin was not the target, so they moved on, and probably hoped to do so undetected, so as to not warn their quarry.

[Parmenio]

So due to another post bringing this up, I decided to bump it.

Step right up, read the evidence and try to think of something that makes sense (as you read you'll find that Whitecloaks, Dragonsworn, Aiel, Trollocs and Padan Fain don't make any sense).

[Dato'vs]

as you read you'll find that Whitecloaks, Dragonsworn, Aiel, Trollocs and Padan Fain don't make any sense

The more i re-read this thread, the more i thought the tinkers were specifically targeted. Darkhounds. No tracks in or out. And what else would circle the camp and kill everything in it, not leave anyone alive and leave no trace? This obviously was a cover up on the DO's side, mentioned by RB. These Tinkers were specifically targeted to stop whatever it is they had to say or do. After all, the DO is known in killing seemingly unimportant people only for the light guys to realise their importance years later.

[Nevman]

Okay, I'll bite. After-al, I did prompt this bump . . .

First off, there are no spoilers on this post.

It's been too long since I read the series for me to work out whether everyone was where you all said they'd be, so I'll have to take you on your word that all the known suspects where in the wrong places to do this. So first lets look again at the passage in question.

Tracks and horses:

The horses were all gone.
...
the ground was too dry to hold tracks well, although he thought horses had gone in several directions

This suggests to me that the force that killed the Tinkers was small. Unlikely to have many, if any, horses. Otherwise the chances of seeing the direction the force left in would have been greater - there would have been a large number of tracks moving off in the same direction. It's possible they arrived and left via the stream, but I would still have expected few more tracks.

It also suggests that the attackers didn't take the horses. In fact, with the wagons largely burnt, they were unlikely to have taken anything. So definitely not brigands.

There are no mention of arrows. Of course, this doesn't have to mean arrows weren't used in the fight, the detail could have been excluded from the narrative, or the arrows collected after, but following this train of thought, the method of killing is not revealed at all. The only details we get of the dead are bright clothes torn and darkened with dried blood and heaped corpses.

I would assume a group of people killed by swords would look different to a group of people killed by spears. Shouldn't Mat have been able to tell if a single weapon had primarily been used to kill the group? It's only supposition, but it does make the idea of an Aiel or Whitecloak attack unlikely.

So this leaves Dragonsworn, Whitecloaks as Dragonsworn, or some unknown third party. with the belief that the the first two groups weren't in the area, we're left with an unknown third party.

Not very satisfactory.

What about why the Tinkers were attacked? The common theory, bolstered by the dying Tinker's message, is that they had seen or knew something that would have been important for Rand to know. Darkfriends killed them to stop them delivering that message. And yet, we have no idea what the message might have been. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we haven't seen the Tinkers recently. There are no hints about what they might have known, or where they might have found something.

This makes me question that idea. Especially in light of what happened that evening to Mat.

So lets look again at the passage. What else does it tell us, what else can we work out. What else might it say?

An overturned wagon
...
few of the wagons had escaped burning.
...
bright clothes torn and darkened with dried blood
...
Heaped corpses
...
horses had gone in several directions
...
Fire had taken most of the wagon lying on its side

The wagons weren't set alight to hide what they were - they weren't all burnt and the Tinkers were still recognisable by their clothes, so fire to get them out of the wagons, or because the attackers enjoyed the destruction? At least two wagons were overturned, were the Tinkers attempting to turn them too violently, or were they pushed over? No mention of tracks from the attackers. Clothing torn, rather than slashed. And corpses heaped . . .

This is beginning to sound like the One Power.

So here's a crazy theory, with that as a basis. We now know that Taim is a Darkfriend. Many of us were wondering from Taim's first appearance, in Chapter 2 of LoC. In that chapter, Taim was given control of what was to become the Black Tower. By chapter 11 he had seven students, and was given leave to start recruiting by Gateway. In chapter 28 he informed Rand that he would be surprised by the changes to the school, and in chapter 42, when Rand finally visits the school again, to give them their new name, there are well over a hundred men in high-collared black coats. Taim is now only doing a few recruiting trips, leaving the majority to a dozen men he can trust alone for a day, with a younger man to provide the gateway, if the older man is not strong enough himself.

I should also mention that Raefar Kisman, Manel Rochaid and Peral Torval are all there, and that Torval almost took Rand on, before Taim intervened. (Interestingly, my copy of LoC names Torval as Tolvar and Torvil. But I doubt that is of consequence.) In chapter 55, there are said to be about two hundred black-coated men taking part in Dumai's Wells, Charl Gedwyn is named, wearing both pins, and nearly attacks Rand. Torval is also mentioned to be wearing both pins too.

I'm beginning to think that the Tinkers were killed by Taim's Asha'man, on orders of a Forsaken, in order to ensure Mat's Band stopped.

A bit convoluted, but it ticks a number of boxes:
No tracks - because the attackers were few and Travelled from the site.
No looting - the attackers weren't interested in what the Tinkers had.
No identifiable parties in the vicinity - distance is no object to someone who can Travel.
No identifiable reason behind the killing - it was one of opportunity, the Tinkers were just unlucky to be there at the time.
No survivors - everyone must be killed, otherwise Taim's gig is in jeopardy.

Potential Issues: channelling as a weapon is often even more easily identified than a spear or sword. But not if the the channellers tried to cover their tracks by simply not blowing everything up.

How was Mat found? Well, Mat's route would not have been too hard to work out. And we already know a channeller was involved in the activities of that night, so Mat was found, and by a channeller. This would have been made easier by having a distraction along his route. You then only need to check up on the surrounding area every night for a few days, until the Band is there.

Issues: How were the Tinkers found? This is an issue for every rejected solution, but a bigger issue when we think of them as having been killed at that location for a reason, rather than simply killed and stumbled on by Mat. My answer? Either they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time - the Asha'man would have slaughtered a village instead, if they hadn't found the Tinkers.

Or, the Tinkers were collected from somewhere else, then driven through a Gateway to that location, before being killed.

Finally, if you've stuck with me this far, allow me to postulate the beginnings of an even crazier theory. The Tinkers were killed because they are the closest thing the world currently has to the original Aiel. This would mean that the Tinkers hold the key to Tarmon Gai'don, and that the DO is getting its agents to systematically kill them all . . . the message to the Dragon Reborn was not to inform him of some secret knowledge, or to tell him who had killed them. It was simply to tell him that they had been killed.

This would also give weight to the possibility that the Tinker's were put there – two birds with one stone.

[Julius al'Thain]

Haven't done a detailed look-through myself, but what about a Gholam on its way south? The strength, the corpses, the blood...

[Nevman]

Sorry, but a Gholam would have been travelling alone, while Mat's analysis of the scene stated that the men, older boys and dogs formed a line to give the women and children a chance to flee. But in doing so, they ran headlong into a second attack.

While Mat could have been wrong, it is all we've got to go on in terms of how the Tinkers died.

[Dato'vs]

So this leaves Dragonsworn, Whitecloaks as Dragonsworn, or some unknown third party. with the belief that the the first two groups weren't in the area, we're left with an unknown third party.

Darkhounds! It has to be, why haven't you considered? "torn" "red stained clothes" "no tracks but a couple possible horses" - points to darkhounds.

I'm beginning to think that the Tinkers were killed by Taim's Asha'man, on orders of a Forsaken, in order to ensure Mat's Band stopped.

Then why didn't they? Mat's Band doesn't encounter Ashamen, did the Tinkers scare them away? They could of easily fained innocence and showed up either later or earlier.

[Nevman]

Originally Posted by Dato'vs

Darkhounds! It has to be, why haven't you considered? "torn" "red stained clothes" "no tracks but a couple possible horses" - points to darkhounds.

How would Darkhounds have set the wagons on fire?

Originally Posted by Dato'vs

Then why didn't they? Mat's Band doesn't encounter Ashamen, did the Tinkers scare them away? They could of easily fained innocence and showed up either later or earlier.

The Band were infiltrated by a bunch of Aiel trying to kill Mat. The Aiel arrived by Gateway.

My proposed plan was that a diversion was wanted, in a known location, in order to get the Band to stop for the night nearby. Then the Aiel would be sent in to kill Mat.

Why send Aiel the second time, and Asha'man the first? Because the first time they needed speed and destruction, covering a lot of ground in order to find an appropriate target while leaving no survivors. Something a couple of Asha'man out on a recruitment drive would have been perfect for. The second called for stealth, an assassination followed by chaos of killing as much of the Band as they could (Too many Aiel were sent for Mat to have been the sole target.) Aiel were much better suited for stealth, and when they were eventually killed by the Band, it would serve to provide a wedge between the surviving members of the Band and Rand's Aiel, with no Mat to smooth the edges.

[Dato'vs]

the wagons being set on fire could be a mishandlement on the tinker's part. You know, a darkhound knocks a guy to the ground, the torch is flung out of his hand, lands in a wagon and catches fire. It would explain why only a couple burnt instead of them all.

But your second explanation does seem reasonable and is persuasive in the asha'men stance.

[Parmenio]

Originally Posted by Nevman

Okay, I'll bite. After-al, I did prompt this bump . . .

Good man, way to take up the challenge.

It also suggests that the attackers didn't take the horses. In fact, with the wagons largely burnt, they were unlikely to have taken anything. So definitely not brigands.

It could be that the horses that ran off were the tinkers horses, they have always had horses to pull wagons, thank you for dismissing brigands I agree with that. Also if it was Asha'man then they wouldn't really have needed any horses, so allowing them to run off "in different directions" wouldn't have mattered to them.

....It's only supposition, but it does make the idea of an Aiel or Whitecloak attack unlikely.

So this leaves Dragonsworn, Whitecloaks as Dragonsworn, or some unknown third party. with the belief that the the first two groups weren't in the area, we're left with an unknown third party.

I also agree with this, also the WC's or Dragonsworn weren't in the area (it's been a while since I re-read as well, but this initial thread was started when I did know what I was talking about, so I am am willing to trust what i initially wrote as well). I'm with the unknown third party.

What about why the Tinkers were attacked? The common theory, bolstered by the dying Tinker's message, is that they had seen or knew something that would have been important for Rand to know. Darkfriends killed them to stop them delivering that message. And yet, we have no idea what the message might have been. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we haven't seen the Tinkers recently. There are no hints about what they might have known, or where they might have found something.

RJ has a history of withholding information that is critical, and that we have to speculate for a long long time. Rand's answers to the Eelfin, it took us a long time to be able to get that information, also the letter that Thom has, was suddenly explained to us in the last book.

I'm beginning to think that the Tinkers were killed by Taim's Asha'man, on orders of a Forsaken, in order to ensure Mat's Band stopped.

I don't know about this one, I know that Mat was targeted by someone (we still don't know who that was btw), but why stop his band? Odd that Mat ended up being diverted by Rand anyway and so too his army.

A bit convoluted, but it ticks a number of boxes:
No tracks - because the attackers were few and Travelled from the site.
No looting - the attackers weren't interested in what the Tinkers had.
No identifiable parties in the vicinity - distance is no object to someone who can Travel.
No identifiable reason behind the killing - it was one of opportunity, the Tinkers were just unlucky to be there at the time.
No survivors - everyone must be killed, otherwise Taim's gig is in jeopardy.

I agree with all but the second to the last. I wonder if it was one of opportunity, your right it could be that the tinkers were just writing "tell the DR", I am still thinking they came across some info.

One other thing that I don't think has been considered with respect to the one power being used is that their was a two pronged attack from what Mat has said, unless they Channeled a fake set of tracks and a fake attack to really make it look like a real attack. It's possible, another way to throw them off the scent of the One Power.

Also I would say that Taim has enough marks against him that this wouldn't have been a bid deal, Rand has had every reason to get after Taim, and turned the other way every time, hell Lews Therin has been trying to warn Rand. His dealing with the Black Tower, or lack of dealing with it, is one of Rands most problematic issues.

Potential Issues: channelling as a weapon is often even more easily identified than a spear or sword. But not if the the channellers tried to cover their tracks by simply not blowing everything up.

This is true, best explanation I've heard. The destruction was just a cover up for them waxing them with the one power.

Or, the Tinkers were collected from somewhere else, then driven through a Gateway to that location, before being killed.

This is interesting, they could have been killed elseware and then brought to that place. We don't have any real evidence for that though, just a possibility, the only way to maybe get at this is to see if any other Tinkers were in proximity to trouble in all of Randland.

Finally, if you've stuck with me this far, allow me to postulate the beginnings of an even crazier theory. The Tinkers were killed because they are the closest thing the world currently has to the original Aiel. This would mean that the Tinkers hold the key to Tarmon Gai'don, and that the DO is getting its agents to systematically kill them all . . . the message to the Dragon Reborn was not to inform him of some secret knowledge, or to tell him who had killed them. It was simply to tell him that they had been killed.

This is another great thought, no evidence but a great thought. Would be nice to see if any other Tinkers have been targeted.

I like the thought you've put into this, I can't dismiss it, best thoughts I've seen so far, and better than what I've come up with.... which is still that we haven't been given enough info to figure it out, and that those tinkers came across some info and were killed by whoever's info that was.

[Dato'vs]

also the letter that Thom has, was suddenly explained to us in the last book.

What do you mean? did i miss something?

[[SaC]Kalief]

Moiraine's letter to Thom.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted by Dato'vs

What do you mean? did i miss something?

I think he's referring to A Knife of Dreams in the chapter "A Cold Medallion" where Mat reads the letter that Moiraine wrote for Thom.

Of course, that's not the last book, but rather the latest book (well, it was, before TGS).

[Dato'vs]

O, i thought he meant the letter that was to Thom. remember, Moirraine gave Thom two letters. One for Mat (which we've seen) and another only for Thom. We don't know what was written only for Thom and i thought that comment said we learnt about it in TGS.

[Shadar]

Originally Posted by Dato'vs

O, i thought he meant the letter that was to Thom. remember, Moirraine gave Thom two letters. One for Mat (which we've seen) and another only for Thom. We don't know what was written only for Thom and i thought that comment said we learnt about it in TGS.

Are you sure?
I thought she gave *RAND* two letters - one for him (explaining about the finns/lanny/docks/etc) and one for Thom (who was to show Mat when he asked). Rand read her letter in FOH, just after she died. Rand gave Mat the letter to give to Thom when he sent Mat to Salidar. Mat gave Thom the letter in Salidar - and there were little hints of Thom and his letter through the next few books. I don't think there was ever any mention of 2 letters to Thom.

[Dato'vs]

I think you're right. I must've mixed the two letters to Rand as two letters to Thom.

[Parmenio]

Yeah, I was refering to the letter that Thom just gave to Mat (which was the same one that Thom recieved, so as others pointed out, it was one letter), we've known about that letter for a long time, and we've speculated what it was about, what it said, and now after this long we finally found out what it was about.

Could be the we won't find out what "tell the DR" means till later.

[Dato'vs]

and now after this long we finally found out what it was about.

It wasn't that long, we found out in KoD. You make it sound like we found out in TGS.

[Shadar]

Originally Posted by Dato'vs

It wasn't that long, we found out in KoD.

So It was only FoH to KoD. 1993 to 2005. There were 5 full books in between (with various hints/mentions of the letter in between).

I'd say that 12 years (and over 1,000,000 words) counts as long.

[Dato'vs]

Not if you're an Ogier.

[Parmenio]

Originally Posted by Dato'vs

Not if you're an Ogier.

Being that I'm human it was a long time for me. You Ogier's are on your own.