Ahem - a repeat question on reach and tripping

Isengrim · 09-18-2003, 09:48 AM

Hi,

Not being current on 3.5ed rules (I'm actually an old 1st ed. guy), can anyone tell me which weapons are reach weapons, and which I can use to trip with? The manual is woefully lacking in this regard.

Thanks!

MisterSlanky · 09-18-2003, 10:04 AM

This is in no way a complete list and for all I know some don't appear in game, but it should put you on the right track:

Possible reach weapons:
- Glaive
- Longspear
- Spiked Chain
- Guisarme
- Halberd
- Ranseur

You can trip with any weapon, there are just some that provide bonuses/prevent you from being tripped in return.

Isengrim · 09-18-2003, 10:36 AM

Thanks! Anyone out there with a complete list of in game reach weapons, and trip bonuses?

Vascariz · 09-18-2003, 07:08 PM

Would like to know too!

entropysoda · 01-02-2004, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Possible reach weapons:

Halberd is NOT a reach weapon.

gygaxian · 01-04-2004, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MisterSlanky

You can trip with any weapon, there are just some that provide bonuses/prevent you from being tripped in return. [/b]

You sure the 'can not be tripped in return' is implemented in ToEE ?

I just bought a Glaive. I'll have to try tripping with it.

Diamondfist · 01-06-2004, 10:44 PM

The PHB gives a list of weapons usable for tripping: dire flail, spiked chain, light flail, heavy flail, halberd, guisarme and whip (AFAIK, the whip and dire flail don't appear), and as MisterSlanky says, any weapon can be used to trip.

I've scoured my v3.5 books and haven't found anything about weapons providing bonuses to tripping, (not even magic weapons for tripping!) but special circumstances do give bonuses for tripping (and unfortunately, penalties).

You get a +4 bonus to trip for every size category you are larger than Medium (Enlarge Person spell would help here), but -4 for every size category smaller than Medium (e.g. halflings & gnomes). This includes the attacker and defender.
The defender also gets a +4 bonus on their check if they have more than 2 legs or is more stable than a normal humanoid (like a dwarf). Giant Crayfish are hard to trip. They get +4 for size and +4 for stability but look funny when you do trip them.

If you have the Improved Trip feat, you: 1) Gain +4 to your STR check to trip, 2) You don't provoke an AoO if you trip your opponent while you're unarmed, and 3) If you trip your opponent in combat, you immediately get an additional melee attack on your opponent as if you had not used your attack for the trip attempt. The game doesn't handle this the same way. My fighter who has Improved Trip and has more than 1 attack per round isn't able to attack again if she fails her trip attack the first time; only if she succeeds in tripping does she get to use her second attack (attacks automatically). gygaxian is right about preventing being tripped in the game; in the PnP game, you must drop your weapon to avoid being tripped, but there isn't a way to do this in the game.

jmcclain · 01-07-2004, 03:18 PM

There is always the SRD from WotC:
http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35

Click on the "Combat II" section and there is a full read on Trip attacks, and then read the "Equipment" section for what you can use as a trip attack. Here is part of that:

TRIP
You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.
If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.
Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.
Being Tripped (Prone): A tripped character is prone. Standing up is a move action.
Tripping a Mounted Opponent: You may make a trip attack against a mounted opponent. The defender may make a Ride check in place of his Dexterity or Strength check. If you succeed, you pull the rider from his mount.
Tripping with a Weapon: Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.

When I just begin going through the Equipment section, I notice the following can be used as a RANGED trip attack:

Bolas

and the following can be used as weapon trip attacks (this is all in each weapon's description), and I don't think a REACH weapon has anything to do with if it may be used as a trip weapon:

chain, spiked
flail, dire
flail, heavy
guisarme
halberd
hammer, gnome hooked
kama
scythe
sickle
whip

and here is the section (also under equipment) about REACH weapons:

Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Regards,

-Jeff

Diamondfist · 01-07-2004, 07:26 PM

This information can also be found in the v3.5 PHB, reach weapons pp 112-113 and pp 137. Rules for trip on pp158-159. The weapons jmcclain lists also appears on pp 115-122 in Chap 7: Equipment with individual info on tripping and the Improved Trip feat is on pp 96. Thanks for the addition and info in the SRD, jmcclain.

I will remember next time to include page numbers for the sources and to reference the SRD.

jmcclain · 01-07-2004, 08:32 PM

Yeah, sorry Diamond. I posted my whole thing before reading all the way down to your reply...

The SRD is just the Open Gaming version of the D&D 3.5 PHB rules and monster manual (without all the copywriten artwork etc).

-JM

Diamondfist · 01-07-2004, 09:16 PM

Why are you apologizing, jmcclain? Your post was splendid, and reminded me that I need to include page #s for my sources. The SRD is also a fine reference guide to forum members who may not have the v3.5 PHB, and is referenced in many members' posts. Didn't you see my thanks to you? You were way more thorough than I was, and we were posting to benefit other forum members, including Isengrim (who BTW hasn't acknowledged either of us for our help yet! Grrrr...

)

I've been experimenting with tripping in ToEE and its great (except for what I said about its improper handling of the Improved Trip feat and making your additional attacks if you miss).

entropysoda · 01-08-2004, 05:11 PM

Quote:

making your additional attacks if you miss

?? What does this mean?

Diamondfist · 01-08-2004, 07:42 PM

E.G., your fighter has 3 attacks, and decides to use his/her first attack to trip. Your character misses/fails to trip your opponent, and doesn't get tripped back. On your second attack, you decide to trip your opponent again, and succeed. If your fighter has the Improved Trip feat, you are allowed to make an attack after tripping your opponent, so tripping your foe on the 2nd try doesn't count towards your second attack. You make your second attack against your opponent, and then, you make your third attack. A similar example of this is in the PHP, pp 96. The SRD has the feat description, but not the example:
http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Feats.rtf

In ToEE, I have a fighter that has two attacks and the Improved Trip feat. If I make a trip attack that succeeds, the fighter automatically makes her second attack, but if she fails to trip, she does not get to make a second attack; the action bar is in the yellow, and she can only move. My fighter is not flatfooted in the round where this happens. The manual doesn't mention this under "Changes" and I haven't seen this as a problem anyone else has mentioned.

09-18-2003, 09:48 AM	#1
Isengrim New Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 45	Ahem - a repeat question on reach and tripping Hi, Not being current on 3.5ed rules (I'm actually an old 1st ed. guy), can anyone tell me which weapons are reach weapons, and which I can use to trip with? The manual is woefully lacking in this regard. Thanks!

09-18-2003, 07:08 PM	#4
Vascariz High level wizard Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 270	Would like to know too! __________________ Txiasaeia: "I paid for this game -- why should I fix this problem?" Because you can.

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09-18-2003, 10:04 AM	#2
MisterSlanky New Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 48	This is in no way a complete list and for all I know some don't appear in game, but it should put you on the right track: Possible reach weapons: - Glaive - Longspear - Spiked Chain - Guisarme - Halberd - Ranseur You can trip with any weapon, there are just some that provide bonuses/prevent you from being tripped in return.

09-18-2003, 10:36 AM	#3
Isengrim New Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 45	Thanks! Anyone out there with a complete list of in game reach weapons, and trip bonuses?

01-06-2004, 10:44 PM	#7
Diamondfist Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 168	The PHB gives a list of weapons usable for tripping: dire flail, spiked chain, light flail, heavy flail, halberd, guisarme and whip (AFAIK, the whip and dire flail don't appear), and as MisterSlanky says, any weapon can be used to trip. I've scoured my v3.5 books and haven't found anything about weapons providing bonuses to tripping, (not even magic weapons for tripping!) but special circumstances do give bonuses for tripping (and unfortunately, penalties). You get a +4 bonus to trip for every size category you are larger than Medium (Enlarge Person spell would help here), but -4 for every size category smaller than Medium (e.g. halflings & gnomes). This includes the attacker and defender. The defender also gets a +4 bonus on their check if they have more than 2 legs or is more stable than a normal humanoid (like a dwarf). Giant Crayfish are hard to trip. They get +4 for size and +4 for stability but look funny when you do trip them. If you have the Improved Trip feat, you: 1) Gain +4 to your STR check to trip, 2) You don't provoke an AoO if you trip your opponent while you're unarmed, and 3) If you trip your opponent in combat, you immediately get an additional melee attack on your opponent as if you had not used your attack for the trip attempt. The game doesn't handle this the same way. My fighter who has Improved Trip and has more than 1 attack per round isn't able to attack again if she fails her trip attack the first time; only if she succeeds in tripping does she get to use her second attack (attacks automatically). gygaxian is right about preventing being tripped in the game; in the PnP game, you must drop your weapon to avoid being tripped, but there isn't a way to do this in the game.

01-07-2004, 03:18 PM	#8
jmcclain Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Idaho Posts: 100	There is always the SRD from WotC: http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35 Click on the "Combat II" section and there is a full read on Trip attacks, and then read the "Equipment" section for what you can use as a trip attack. Here is part of that: TRIP You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks. If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you. Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack. Being Tripped (Prone): A tripped character is prone. Standing up is a move action. Tripping a Mounted Opponent: You may make a trip attack against a mounted opponent. The defender may make a Ride check in place of his Dexterity or Strength check. If you succeed, you pull the rider from his mount. Tripping with a Weapon: Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped. When I just begin going through the Equipment section, I notice the following can be used as a RANGED trip attack: Bolas and the following can be used as weapon trip attacks (this is all in each weapon's description), and I don't think a REACH weapon has anything to do with if it may be used as a trip weapon: chain, spiked flail, dire flail, heavy guisarme halberd hammer, gnome hooked kama scythe sickle whip and here is the section (also under equipment) about REACH weapons: Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away. Regards, -Jeff

01-07-2004, 07:26 PM	#9
Diamondfist Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 168	This information can also be found in the v3.5 PHB, reach weapons pp 112-113 and pp 137. Rules for trip on pp158-159. The weapons jmcclain lists also appears on pp 115-122 in Chap 7: Equipment with individual info on tripping and the Improved Trip feat is on pp 96. Thanks for the addition and info in the SRD, jmcclain. I will remember next time to include page numbers for the sources and to reference the SRD.

01-07-2004, 08:32 PM	#10
jmcclain Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Idaho Posts: 100	Yeah, sorry Diamond. I posted my whole thing before reading all the way down to your reply... The SRD is just the Open Gaming version of the D&D 3.5 PHB rules and monster manual (without all the copywriten artwork etc). -JM

01-07-2004, 09:16 PM	#11
Diamondfist Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 168	Why are you apologizing, jmcclain? Your post was splendid, and reminded me that I need to include page #s for my sources. The SRD is also a fine reference guide to forum members who may not have the v3.5 PHB, and is referenced in many members' posts. Didn't you see my thanks to you? You were way more thorough than I was, and we were posting to benefit other forum members, including Isengrim (who BTW hasn't acknowledged either of us for our help yet! Grrrr... ) I've been experimenting with tripping in ToEE and its great (except for what I said about its improper handling of the Improved Trip feat and making your additional attacks if you miss).

01-08-2004, 07:42 PM	#13
Diamondfist Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 168	E.G., your fighter has 3 attacks, and decides to use his/her first attack to trip. Your character misses/fails to trip your opponent, and doesn't get tripped back. On your second attack, you decide to trip your opponent again, and succeed. If your fighter has the Improved Trip feat, you are allowed to make an attack after tripping your opponent, so tripping your foe on the 2nd try doesn't count towards your second attack. You make your second attack against your opponent, and then, you make your third attack. A similar example of this is in the PHP, pp 96. The SRD has the feat description, but not the example: http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Feats.rtf In ToEE, I have a fighter that has two attacks and the Improved Trip feat. If I make a trip attack that succeeds, the fighter automatically makes her second attack, but if she fails to trip, she does not get to make a second attack; the action bar is in the yellow, and she can only move. My fighter is not flatfooted in the round where this happens. The manual doesn't mention this under "Changes" and I haven't seen this as a problem anyone else has mentioned.