Become a TOEE Tactical Master - Tips for Combat Success and More! (no spoilers)

[ELB]

I imagine that TOEE's robust turn-based tactical engine would prove daunting to those uninitiated with 3rd and 3.5 edition pencil-and-paper D&D. So, I decided to start this post with some tactical tips (note: not spoilers) to help people survive in TOEE's oft-deadly world.

This is mainly for beginners, but others may find a few golden nuggets they can add to their repertoire as well, just as I hope to from your replies.

Beyond the tactical, I'll offer some character creation and progression tips as well. And, please, feel free to post your own tips and strategies.

1. Don't just attack. While it may be tempting to simply select attack, it is hardly often your best option. Instead, try some of the moves listed below.

2. Charge! TOEE will often let you charge your enemy. All you need is a little unobstructed distance between you and your foe. A charge will grant you a not insignificant +2 to hit. Even better, charge enables you to attack from a distance that is "yellow" to your foe. An ordinary attack would require you to use both "halves" of your first turn to close with the foe, only to attack on your next turn. Charge enables you to run a "yellow" distance AND attack at the end. Charge does hit you with a -2 AC penalty on your next turn, but, in my opinion, that is almost always more than worth it to be able to hit hard and hit early.

TIP!!! Charging is perfect for characters with reach weapons, like the longspear. They can charge to a protected spot behind an ally (where the -2 AC penalty rarely matters) and get their +2!

3. Flank. Flank. Flank. When you and an ally are on opposite sides of an enemy (directly across from one another with the enemy in between), that enemy is flanked. Flanking grants a +2 bonus to attack to both flankers, so it is key to obtain a flank as often as possible. A successful flank can be achieved in multiple ways, detailed in tips 4-6 (see below).

4. Use ALT to move. Using the ALT key to move will allow you to preview your end location options. It also, very importantly, tell you when your enemy will get a free attack, called an Attack of Opportunity. These can often be avoided using ALT. ALT will allow you to set waypoints for movement, so your character won't simply follow a straight path, especially through your enemy's "threatened space." Click once to set the waypoint and double click to execute the move. Use this to move around your enemies threatened space to his back to flank!

5. The Tumble Skill. Tumble is one of the only combat skills in the game, and it's well worth your investment. When moving around an enemy, as detailed above in 4, isn't practical, tumble will often save your bacon. When you move through an enemy's threatened space, the game will make a tumble roll. If the roll succeeds, his chance at an Attack of Opporunity is denied. It's a great way to gain superior mobility during combat, and great for achieving that flank.

Feats like Mobility (prerequisite: Dodge) can also help you avoid attacks of opporunity, and are the best route for characters with nasty armor check penalties that negate tumble bonuses (check your tumble rating while IN armor).

6. Flank with Summoned Allies! Many classes can summon creatures. Get double usage out of them by summoning them to a position that achieves a successful flank. This applies to any ally, even such enchantments like the cleric's Spiritual Weapon. Even if the summons is a weak first level creature, the flank bonus may alone well be worth it.

7. Learn the Five-Foot Step. Many might wonder what that 5' step is for. Well, it's mainly for getting out of melee without taking an attack of opportunity while still maintaining your ability to attack or cast. The classic example is a mage whose foe has closed in on him. If he attempts to cast while right next to the foe, bang!, attack of opportunity and a chance to blow the spell. If he retreats using his "green" distance move, bang!, attack of opportunity (though he still gets his chance to cast). If he merely takes a 5' step from the foe, no Attack of Opportunity and the chance to cast his spell without interruption.

5' Step Tactics With Two Weapon Fighting and Reach Weapons.

Always see if a 5' step is enough to get your dual wielder next to a foe. Striking with both weapons is a Full Round Action. A 5' step is essentially free, meaning you can take it and still get in both attacks. But if you move as a normal move, it's a partial action, and you'll be left with only another partial for your attack, meaning you'll only attack with your main hand this turn.

If there is room behind you, take a 5' step back with reach weapons. Why? You can still attack from 10' away, and for enemies who wish to melee attack you with an ordinary length weapon, they must first step into your threatened space, giving you a free attack of opportunity when they approach!

EXPLANATION: Why they take an attack of opportunity when you are wielding a reach weapon, and why you'll take one when they are and you are not...

Attacks of opportunity are the most confounding element of the D&D tactics. Basically, your first 5' entering into a threatened area is "free." But once you move beyond the 5', you are considered to be "moving through" threatened space. So, if you or the enemy wields a reach weapon, that means 10' radius of space from you (centerpoint) is threatened. If an enemy approaches you with a normal weapon (5' radius), he is 5' short and has to move through 10' to get to you. The first 5' is free, the second is not. You'll get an attack of opportunity on him for the second.

In pencil & paper D&D, a reach weapon can ONLY attack at 10', so if a foe with a normal weapon closed with you, you would be forced to move back from him 5' feat to attack him. In TOEE, this isn't the case, as reach weapons can attack from 5' AND 10'. This gives the reach weapon an advantage it was never supposed to have, and makes it far more desirable.

8. If You Must Leave Battle, Withdraw. If you need to get all the way out of battle, be sure to withdraw. This takes your entire turn, but it means you can extract yourself from a nasty melee situation without taking any attacks of opportunity.

9. Born to Run. When your enemy is more than a double move away and you need to close to melee, Run. Running allows you to move 3x or 4x your normal move distance in a straight line. For those in heavy armor, it's a must to get there in time.

10. Maintain Mobility. You might love the AC bonus of heavy armor and a shield, but if your character moves through the battlefield like an 18-wheeler, it isn't worth much. Try to keep that 30' or 20' move. Barbarians and monks, with their speed advantage, have a real bonus here. And, remember, there are plenty of spells that buff AC (magic armor, barkskin, etc.).

11. DE-FENSE! Mainly, I think the best defense is a good offense [see 2 (Charge) above]. But, remember your defensive options, like Total Defense and Fight Defensively. If one character is holding off foes, that means there are many other characters free to attack while the enemy attempts to chip away at the well-protected character. Feats like Combat Expertise can boost defense even higher. Learn your defensive options.

Party, Feat and Skill Tips...

1. For a TOEE party, it is best to have one character, like a rogue or bard, be the "talker." Have them deal with the NPCs all the time. Make them use their plentiful skill points for "conversation" skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Gather Information, etc.). Save other party member's skill points for combat options.

TIP: Bluff grants you bonuses to the Feint combat move, so it's one of the better "conversation" options.

2. Best combat skills for non-casters are: Listen (helps avoid being surprised), Tumble (if lightly armored, see 5 above), and Spot.

3. Best combat skills for a caster are: Concentration, Spellcraft and the above in 2.

4. Consider Hide and Move Silently for your mage or sorceror, and the Stealthy feat. For one, they should have a good dexterity since they aren't going to be armored. Two, it's a big plus to be able to sneak in on a tightly grouped bunch of foes and launch that area of effect spell.

5. Don't neglect the Use Magic Items skill. Many spells apply solely to the caster, like Shield or True Strike. Imagine a rogue with a good Use Magic Items skill using a scroll of True Strike for his next sneak attack!

6. All-around solid combat feats are: Improved Initiative, Dodge, Power Attack + Cleave, Point Blank Shot + Precise Shot (for ranged).

7. Druids should take: Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summons, and Natural Spell.

8. Characters with a high dexterity, but low strength (often rogues) should strongly consider weapon finesse. With a rapier, this is a hot combination.

9. Spring Attack is a wicked feat for those who can obtain it. The ability to move, attack and move again cannot be underrated, especially for rogue-types.

10. Clerics should strongly consider Improved Turning. Why fight undead when you can simply destroy them outright?

11. Weapon focus isn't necessarily a great bet for non-fighters (+1 isn't worth much). Plus, you might feel restricted if you find a nice magic weapon that isn't your focus. For fighters, who can Specialize and Greater Specialize, it's a great choice. Combine with Power Attack and Cleave!

12. Mages should focus on area of effect spells like sleep and fireball. It's their specialty. Let others handle buffing or single foe attacks.

13. Finally... Dual-Wield is cool, but two-Handed is better. For the most part, a two-handed weapon trumps wielding a weapon in each hand. Why? For one, a two-handed weapon often takes no feats to use, or, at most, one. It also means the character gets one and a half times their strength bonus to damage. Dual-wielding typically means penalties to hit, requires multiple feats to be effective (which could be used to enhance your two-handed weapon effectiveness), and requires a small weapon in the off-hand that typically does less damage and gets hit with a half-strength bonus to damage, while the main hand weapon must do "medium" damage (like 1-8 vs. 1-10, 1-12, 2d6 for two-handed). Dual-wielding also requires a full action (both green and yellow "halves" of your turn) to attack with both hands. I've seen analysis on this, and dual-wielding is almost never worth it.

Think about it. A fighter with a greatsword does 2d6. If his strength is 18 (+4), he will do 2d6 +6. Dual wielding a longsword and short sword, he'll get 1d8 +4 and 1d6 +2 (off-hand strength bonus is halved for dual-wielding). The difference in potential damage here is +2 for the dual-wield option, but he must hit both times. With the various penalties to dual-wielding, he will hit less often than with one weapon. And critical hits favor the two-hander as well.

Then add in all the feats the fighter would need to boost two weapons. He could easily Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization that greatsword. Can he afford to do that to both the longsword and shortsword? I doubt it.

Thanks for reading. Hope this helped. Please add any other tips, character building strategies, etc. in replies (I'll be sure to read them). I'll also add any others I can think of.

Good gaming,

E.

[Sorciere]

Thanks for the tips! Now I need to go remake my rogue lol

Nice write-up. Thanks!

[Kentamanos]

Very nice thread. I know I could use some tips in it for sure...

[Vash_HS]

#4) That's why Halflings make wicked spell casters
#5) You can also uswe this ability to try to identify scrolls.

[Bhodi Amashi]

Something I always drilled into my party when playing PnP A D & D....

Priority of Comabat

1. Enemy Spellcasters
2. Enemy Archers (Damn those poison arrows)
3. Enemy Leaders
4. Everything else.

(Actual results may vary)....

[magik13]

There is one situation where dual weild comes into it's own - a rogue with a high sneak attack. If you can flank an opponent and get a full attack round in, thats a lot of sneak attack damage. A L8 rogue will get 3 attacks a round in this situation at +4d6 damage on each attack. Even at lower levels you can still get in 2 attacks around with an extra 2-3d6 damage for each attack. Especially for rogues with high dex and low strength this is the route to take for combat power - just take weapon finesse (short sword) and dual weild.

However, other that that one case, a 2 handed weapon (or a weapon and a magical sheild) is always better than dual weild.

[wynston]

Heh, just from playing so many CRPGs I learned that progression. I need to use the 5 foot step more, I really don't, and it seems quite useful. Good write up and thanks for the tips! Just shows how much there is to learn/know about this combat system. Its great.

[Ithalyan]

Get a high bluff, use Feint. Watch your rogue sneak attack without a flank! Wheeee!

[Kobayashi]

Another situation when dual-wield is better : fighter with Improved Criticals feat wielding two Great Cleavers. Serious pain !
With at least above-average party, you don't need any advanced tactics for 99% of battles (fireball/Great Cleave everything that moves .
But in that last 1%, you need to pull all tricks you know to survive.

A lot of this has been said before, in other places, but here goes:


1. To get the most out of (Greater) Cleave, aim you blows at already-weakened enemies so you're almost sure to get those extra attacks. And taking a five-foot step so you're surrounded by enemies can help (although, obviously, being flanked by enemies can be a Bad Thing.)

2. About point 11 (DE-FENSE): this is the main idea behind tank characters, who are heavily armoured and always attempt to position themselves in the front and draw most of the fire. With all the corridor fighting you'll be doing, it's a good idea to build up a tank or two. Give the tank your nicest armour, a shield (this is one place where weapond-and-shield might outo two-handed) and buff them up a bit, and use them to clog a corridor. Having a lot of HP helps. Dwarves make great tanks.

3. Be Ready -- make use of the Ready vs. options. When facing a group with a caster, tell your artillery to be ready vs. casting to try and interrupt the spell; and definitely use ready vs. approach. I like to start many fights by creating a nice line of readied fighters in front of my artillery support: that way, they'll get a hit in on anyone attacking them, and also an AoO on anyone attempting to run past them and towards the rear lines.

4. Crowd Control -- when faced with a huge mob, you might want to try to confuse or frighten some, or perhaps put them to sleep, and delay others using web, entagle, fog, or grease, and thus turn the mob into a small one. As an added bonus, the enemies on the edge of a web or particularly a greasy puddle are extra vulnerable. However, you should have a few archers ready to take care of the enemies who get stuck in the middle seemingly forever. (Added note: throwing a Fireball on a Web burns the Web up, together with many of the things trapped in it.)

5. Charming -- turning a few strategically placed enemies into your allies can really change the odds. It's like summoning, only better (and, unfortunately, with a saving throw: however, low-WIS enemies are quite likely to fail this throw.) I like using Suggestion on the biggest, dumbest Ogre arround, and using it to beat enemy artillery into small manageable bits. Bards have a very nice selection of charm spells.

6. This may be a bit controversial, but I'd seriously consider giving arcane casters Precise Shot (which requires Point Blank Shot as well.) Your arcane casters should have a high DEX anyway, to improve their armour class, and this way they'll be able to fire into melee whenever they lack the appropriate spells. E.g., when a few leftover enemies are still stuck in that damned Web.

[ELB]

MORE TIPS AND COMMENTS FROM THE AUTHOR

Ah, a couple of more good tips to put in my bag of tricks - thanks to all.

I especially appreciated the dual-wield for rogues. Since rogues often don't have a strength bonus and have no proficiency in two-handed weapons (other than, possibly, weak ones), it might make some sense, especially when combined with finesse. And, I don't know about now, but one used to be able to off-hand a rapier with no penalty.

(This brings me to yet another tip — consider the Rapier (rogues especially). While it may not look like much at first, look at the critical hit range: it's that very rare 18-20! The scimitar also has this, but isn't within the rogue's weapon proficiencies. If you are using a short sword at present, why not switch to the rapier? It's better.

...a rapier with an increased critical hit range (through feats, spells or specials) is wicked to behold indeed!)

But, and this is a big BUT, rogues are rarely human and get few feats, so you have to spend very wisely. If you go the dual-wield route, you are leaving behind many desirable options, like dodge, mobility, spring attack. Furthermore, dual-wielding most definitely DOES NOT make sense early on, when the character has a very low base attack bonus and won't have the necessary multiple feats to make dual-wielding effective. Lastly, the rogue never has a great base attack bonus, so they have a harder time of eating any dual-wield penalties than a fighter-type.

TIP! Consider taking Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword for your rogue (or other powerful two-handed weapon). While it may seem ridiculous, there is nothing in 3.5 D&D that says a rogue cannot sneak attack with ANY weapon, greatsword included. This could take a measly 1d6 damage (shortsword or rapier) and increase it to 2d6 (for non-small characters, but the bonus range is nearly the same)! However! If your rogue has a high dexterity and low strength, and you intend on taking the Finesse feat as I suggested in my tips, obviously, don't go with the greatsword.

But, remember, rogues almost never use shields (and shouldn't), so why not fill that off-hand with the longer hilt of a two-handed weapon!

TIP! If you want a rogue with some stopping power, go Elf over Halfling. True, halflings receive many natural bonuses to rogue abilities, so they seem and are a natural choice. But, Elves will give you the same +2 to Dexterity and won't penalize your strength. Elves can move 30' in combat, rather than 20', so they are more mobile. Elves get longsword and longbow proficiency for free, which trumps the shortsword or rapier unless you intend on taking finesse. And, sadly, halflings do less damage as small-sized characters. Unless they are sneak attacking or have a mind-blowing strength ability, your halfling will, unfortunately, do damage commensurate to his size.

BACK TO DUAL-WIELDING...

I am still of the mind that it tends to make very little sense, though I am open to convincing arguments, of course.

There are ONLY three instances in which dual-wielding might make some sense to me.

The first is for rangers, who get the feats for free, so the cost is much lower to them.

The second is when you find two really nice magic weapons and are therefore able to benefit from both magical effects. This especially applies to weapons that slow or blind, etc. A Dagger of Venom and a Shortsword of Haste would, for example, be a nice combination BUT you are not going to find those in a level 10 and below game like TOEE (at least you shouldn't - I am not close to finished yet).

The third instance is, possibly, the fighter with an Exotic Weapon like the two-bladed sword, which is not in this game. With the two-bladed sword (think Darth Maul, for the uninitiated - a staff with a sword blade at both ends), you effectively wield two longswords without an off-hand penalty, so damage is higher. You can then use JUST ONE set of feats (Focus, Specialize, Greater Specialize) applied to a single weapon (meaning the bonuses apply to both ends). This, in my mind, is a strong combination with potential.

However, again, the two-bladed sword is not in TOEE, and they are very rare in pencil & paper as well. So, unless you have a nice dungeon master, if you ever want a chance at a magic one, you are going to have to have it enchanted yourself.

Keep 'em coming!

- E.

[ELB]

Aww, no more posts since I last looked, but I will add another note anyway...

ON THE USE OF RANGED WEAPONS...

Impressive images of Legolas aside, ranged weapons have always appealed to people. It's hard not to like the idea of shooting the enemy with impunity from a distance.

BUT... for the most part, ranged weapons are an ineffective way to conduct combat, because:

1) Enemies with melee weapons will close on you very rapidly, usually within the first turn.

2) Ranged weapons suffer from obstruction penalties. If anything blocks your line of sight to the foe, they will get a concealment bonus that will make it very hard to hit.

3) Without the Precise Shot feat (prerequisite: Point Blank Shot), your ranged character will suffer serious penalties for firing upon any foes engaged in melee. Even with these feats, the game may still calculate a concealment bonus if you are essentially "firing through" several allies to get to your foe. I am not sure about this, though.

4) Ranged weapons tend to do little damage. Unless you have a significant strength and have found a composite bow that allows you to apply strength bonuses to damage, your arrows aren't going to be particularly potent, compared to a solid melee weapon with a strength bonus applied. Of course, the heavy crossbow is an exception with a 1d10 to damage, but they are hit with a serious reload time penalty.

The ranged weapon can be especially ineffective because they tend to do piercing damage, which a good number of creatures are resistant to. Obviously, sling bullets do not suffer from this, but they do suffer from ordinarily low damage compared to other ranged ammunition.

5) If you are caught in melee with your ranged weapon, watch out! Ranged is not good in melee, as your foe will automatically receive an Attack of Opportunity against any character attempting to fire. Treat this situation like casting a spell and use the 5' step option to remove yourself from melee contact before firing. There may be a feat that negates this Attack of Opportunity, but I am not aware of it.

6) Remember that it takes time to switch weapons, so be careful during situations when you know you'll switch from ranged to melee and vice versa.

EXCEPTIONS - Times When Ranged Works Great!!!

1) Casters can trap enemies in such a way that you won't want to go near them. Spells like Web, Grease and Entangle are fantastic for rendering foes helpless, but they also prevent your melee characters from closing in without causing them to be susceptible to the very same spell effect you just disabled your foes with. For this reason, have a ranged weapon on every character, even if they don't use it often.

TIP! Magically trapping very strong enemies with weak saves like giants, ogres, etc. can result in an easy ranged attack victory.

2) Rogues can make amazing snipers. Rogue sneak attack applies to any weapon, be it a rapier, hammer, greataxe or sling. So, the rogue is the natural sniper. Simply use your sneak skill and run around sniping at a safe distance. Combined with the multitude of ranged weapon feats, this can be one wicked option.

TIP! During rogue character creation, consider an Elf, since they gain the longsword and longbow proficiency automatically AND get a +2 dexterity bonus.

3) Magic arrows can make all the difference. Frequently, ranged attacks do a rather unimpressive 1-3 damage, and sometimes even 0 (a successful hit for no damage due to resistance to piercing). But a magic arrow, like a flaming arrow or arrow of piercing, can up the damage considerably, making the ranged weapon a much more deadly option.

4) Finally, to ensure that you'll always have the best chance of hitting your target, try to obtain a nice, clear line of sight to them to avoid concealment penalties to hit. And if you opted for the Point Blank Shot feat, be sure to stand fairly close (within 30', I believe) of your enemy whenever possible.

I'd love to see more tips, hints, strategies and character build concepts, so please reply.

- E.

[Wrox]

Could someone please explain cover / concealment better? The ingame hypertext help says that enemies with a cover bonus have are surrounded by a red circle. But aren't all enemies surrounded by a red circle? Is there another way to tell if an enemy has cover?

[Andante]

Great thread ELB! I'll add my 2 cents:

I've had some success with a rogue / ranger wielding a longspear. Strange combination (I was on my way to getting the free dual wielding from the ranger class; the rogue is not normally proficient with reach weapons) but the spear allows my rogue to get into flanking position easier. Plus, most of the time, my rogue can switch from a bow to the spear (a "half action") and attack in the same turn using the extra range. Might be a viable option before you have enough BAB to effectively use dual wielding.

One thing to note about reach weapons though, is if you intend to use them behind an ally, you'll be granting your opponent a +4AC cover modifier, granted by your own meatshield! (this mod is hard to see since it is coded as a _bonus_ for your opponet's AC, rather than a penalty to your attack) It's often best to simply close next to the opponent then give him the +4AC. Note that 3.5 doesn't allow reach weapons (other than the spiked chain) to hit adjacent targets... so this might get patched.

One great thing about reach weapons, is that it prevents the "cheezy" step back and cast / fire trick (hehe, sorry ELB, knee jerk reaction from my PnP days when we first heard of this trick). Run up to a caster or archer with your spearman and they can't move out of your threatened area and still cast a spell! They will usually try to cast the spell on the spot, which means a free wack for you!

On ranged weapons and "allied cover penalties": It seems that the game has a flag for each character for whether or not they are "in melee". Although I have yet to perform exhaustive tests, any character that attacks or is attacked by a melee weapon is considered in melee. Characters being threatened seem to be considered as in melee. Sometimes, I'll have an odd combatant standing all by himself that is also similarly flagged. IMHO, just get Precise Shot ASAP and not worry about this.

Observation on Heavy Crossbow: The reloading time on it is the same as the light crossbow, so if you are big enough, make the switch ASAP! The extra damage might actually let you draw some blood from those zombies! This too, might get patched though.

One last point: consider carefully if you are planning to charge a target. Charge gives you a +2 to hit, flanking gives you a +2 to hit. If you can choose between charging and flanking, choose the latter! You'll avoid the -2 AC and give one of your other allies a flanking bonus as well! Ideally, I try to get my rogue behind the enemy and sneak attack them while they are flat footed. Then my paladin charges in from the front and get a nice +4 to hit (maybe enough to warrent a Power Attack?).

Anyhow, that's all from me. Gonna convert me some portraits for my characters!

[ELB]

Some fantastic replies here, folks.

A few more tips, and a correction:

Dual-wielding is GOOD for rogues. (How did I miss this? I must be slipping.) Twin sneak attacks is, well, just dandy.

Dual-wielding is especially bad for fighters with more than one attack. Take that additional attack with a nice greatsword or greataxe. For, two weapon wielding on applies the off-hand attack once! Oh, it is such a raw deal.

READYING! How could I forget readying. Luckily, someone else brought it to my attention. IF you find yourself with a full "yellow" half-action left, be sure to ready something, anything! The most common is "Ready Vs. Approach." Then, when the enemy comes near your space, bang!, they get interrupted by you and you get your attack. This offers up all sorts of possibilities. Instead of leaping into the fray, considering firing spells or ranged from distance and waiting for the enemy to come to you. Then cut his throat or bash his skull.

SPELLCASTING TIP! Isn't disease cool? Isn't blind cool? Yes, they are, BUT your enemy might well save against them, and that is always a downer. How to avoid this? Think logically about what kind of saves your enemy is likely to have. A big, hulking ogre probably isn't dextrous or wise, so his reflex and will saves will be pathetic. But he is a hearty brute, so his fortitude save will likely rock. The assassin, however, is likely to have an unbeatable reflex, but less fortitude. Cast exploit their weaknesses and watch those spells work.

DWARVES & MOVEMENT. Movement is half the battle. So, barbarians and monks in lighter armor really rule here with their increased speed. But dwarves also get their day in the sun. But they only have a 20' move, you say! True, but they get it with any level of encumbrance. So, beef your dwarf up with 4" thick plate steel and watch him keep his stride.

TIP! Dwarves make excellent clerics. They are hearty and can take full advantage of the cleric's armor proficiencies. However, their charisma penalty may limit your turning undead, so beef this up with feats or make sure their starting charisma is reasonable, like 12+.

CASTERS & RANGED WEAPONS. At early levels, even sorcerers can't be lobbing spells left and right, so they have to do something. Ranged is an obvious choice, especially since their dexterity is typically good since they won't be wearing armor. Whether you want to burn feats on boosting their ranged ability is up to you, but keep in mind that even with a high dexterity, mages have terrible base attack bonuses, so don't expect to hit all that often. Also, keep in mind that Elves get +2 to dexterity and longbow proficiency. Might give them an edge.

TIP! Spellcaster race. Hrmm, this is a hard one. Humans get the extra feat and skill points. Elves get +2 dexterity (at the cost of constitution, which could be bad for the low hp mage) and longbow proficiency. Halflings? Well, they get nice stealth and to hit bonuses. Could be a winner. Gnomes might also work. Hrmm, seems like I haven't provided a good answer. Myself, I like the halfling.

- E.L.B.

One note about casters-as-archers:

The difference between a caster BAB and a fighter BAB is really not that great at early levels. Assuming a DEX of 18, a fourth level fighter will have a ranged attack bonus of 8, while a bard or divine caster will be at 7 and an arcane caster at 6. And around that time most casters can start to self-buff with Cat's Grace when needed. Since they'll be dealing with lots of low-level monsters with poor AC, they'll do just fine. Later on, of course, casters will have plenty of spells to keep them busy, so they won't have time to act as archers.

And a note about sneak-attacking archers:

I believe that you can sneak-attack with a range weapon only if you're within 30ft of your victim. (So Point-Blank Shot will certainly apply there.)

And a note about multiple attacks:

Once your BAB is six or more, you can attack more than once a turn. Whee! Fun! However, it is worth noting that this will only happen if you make a full attack action, so high level fighters might not want to move around much. Again, there is much to be said for standing in a strategic position with while Ready Vs Approach.


I guess I'm still advocating my own strategy of keeping the fighters relatively stationary in between the enemy and my artillery section (which contains archers and arcane casters, also maybe druids. Clerics are usually fighters, in my book.) My fighters don't need to be that mobile, except when they are rushing to plug a hole in the defenses. And archers _are_ useful, as they can snipe away at the enemy artillery without fear of AoOs. Rogues can run around at the edges of the monster mob; this is fine for them, as they have maxed Tumble _and_ Mobility.

Oh, and the fighters don't need to stand shoulder-to-shoulder: there can be a gap between them. Anything attempting to pass through the gap provokes AoOs on both sides, which is usually enough to bring down a meatshield attacker.

Obviously, this strategy works best in enclosed spaces. Like temples.

Great stuff, hell I thought I was starting to learn how to play and I just learned I knew nothing.

[jpinard]

Oh my goodness this is excellent!! Thank you!

[Norfleet]

For low levels before iterative attacks, a GREAT move I've found is the "Linel of Battle" trick: Line up your characters: Order them to guard: Ready Against Approach. When an enemy approaches you, before he can attack, you can strike him. Then, depending on how it goes, you'll be allowed to either do a full turn, in which case you can fall back behind the next character in the wall of battle, and immediately guard again: An opponent who continues to advance will then be struck at by the next character, who then falls back using either a full move or a 5' step move, and you can do this over, and over, and over, until you run out of fallback space, or your opponent becomes enveloped and flanked by the people parallel to the fallback.

Ready-against-advance also works great as a cautious means of advancing your line of battle, since any opponent who attempts to rush you will enable you to strike him first, and since you're already in a line of battle, you're already prepared to perform the fallback manuever. The usual means of moving I perform is standard move, form line, and then guard.

[reddog00]

Awesome strategies from many angles. That is what makes this game one of the best I have ever played. You can learn a new tactic or create a battle plan of your choosing. Totally awesome is what I say!!!

[Llyranor]

bump

[Pielorinho]

Very cool advice! I started a similar thread a couple days ago, Advanced Combat Tactics. A lot of the advice is the same as yours, but some of it is different; here's my first post from it:

Use spells to divide and conquer
This is extremely important, and you can start doing it at first level. The game has a lot of spells that reduce or prevent movement for a group of enemies; USE THEM. They turn a battle against 10 enemies into a battle against the three enemies who made their saving throws. Just be careful not to get your own guys caught in the Area of Effect! Spells to use: Grease and Entangle are first level. Web, Spike Growth, Spike Stones, Solid Fog, etc. have similar effects.

Another class of area spells are those that affect the foes' capabilities. Sleep is fantastic at low levels for taking out mulitple enemies at once; later, scare and cone of fear can have the same effect.

If they they join you, they can't beat you
Similarly, charm person and other mood-affecting spells are great. Charm spells seem to work pretty well in the middle of combat (a departure from PnP rules), and turning even one bad guy into a temporary good guy can really even the odds. Charm person and Suggestion both have this effect; I've not tried higher-level charm spells.

One bad guy at a time
When you're attacking enemies, it's tempting to have each of your guys choose a dance-partner and attck that foe until it's dead. DON'T DO THIS! You want to tag-team enemies: kill, kill, kill that one bad guy until it falls, and then move on to the next bad guy.

Location, location, location
Remember your 5-foot steps. I used Control+s to bind the 5-foot-step to the s key, and use it all the time. You want to flank your enemies (even if your rogue is facing an enemy head-on, she can sneak-attack if she's got an ally on the enemy's other side), and you want to make sure your casters have room to step away from the bad guys before casting their spells. If you've got a guy with a reach weapon, he can stand behind your other characters and attack (although his target will get a +4 to their Armor class, due to cover they're getting vs. the attack). He can also stand in front of everyone and get attacks of opportunity on enemies that approach. Finally, if you have someone with the cleave feat, try to make sure they're in a position to threaten at least two enemies before attacking: that way, if they drop their first enemy, you get the immense satisfaction of a second attack.

Buff
Don't forget the buff spells! Mage armor is a wizard's best friend -- but it's also a monk's best friend and an animal companion's best friend. Use it! Barkskin, greater magic fang/vestment/weapon, and the various spells that up your stats are also really great. If you're wondering what spell to memorize at a particular level, you usually can't go wrong with a buffing spell.

Turn Undead
If you've got a cleric with the Sun domain, undead should never cause you a problem: destroying them is fun and easy, using the Greater Turning ability. Otherwise, you may have a little more trouble with them. If you cast Eagle's Splendor on yourself before you meet undead, it'll be a lot easier: turning is based off your charisma score.

Be careful with power attacking
Even though it looks like a great feat -- with a two-handed weapon, for every -1 to hit you take, you get +2 damage -- very often you're better not power-attacking at all. Let's say you've got a fighter specialized in a greatsword, wielding a +2 greatsword and with a strength of 18. Your damage is normally 2d6+2 (sword) + 2 (specialization) +6 (strength), for an average of 17. You can power-attack to up the damage by two, to 19 -- but that means that you're more likely to do no damage whatsoever. Is it worth the risk of not doing those 17 points of damage, just so you can maybe do an extra 2 points of damage? Sometimes yes; often, no.

Daniel

[Uvatha]

In response to questions about cover and firing into melee, here's what I have seen:

Cover seems to apply as a bonus to your opponents AC (you can see this by checking the rolls for attacks from missile weapons or reach weapons through allies versus the rolls for direct, 5' melee attacks) whenever there is an object or creature (friend or foe) between you and your target. This bonus appears to normally be a +4 to their AC, which can be pretty significant.

Added to that is the -4 penalty for firing into melee, until you have precise shot. That ends up being, effectively, a -8 to your ranged attack - so getting precise shot is a must for ranged rogues, particularly.

I find that my 1/2 Orc Barbarian/Cleric of Gruumsh with a longspear is more useful wading directly in than standing behind allies, because the cover penalty ends up being a problem (even over the little dwarf). Using Barbarian Rage, Feat of Strength, and a 2-handed weapon is a thing of beauty, btw.

Great post! Lots of good stuff in here - one thing I would add is that using your five foot moves after you are already engaged in melee (in round 2 or 3) so your front line fighters end up flanking opponents without giving up attacks can be quite handy.

[Gorgor]

This is a great thread.

I have recently discovered The Ready vs selections. I find these to greatly improve my ability to advance on the enemy in mass per say. I think "take and hold" my Fighter types secure the area, often moving in quickly, readying their weapons, with spell caster falling behind, secure that they can cast spells, giving my party the advantage.

BARDS

I have always been a fan of the Bard in CRPGs, and in ToEE, it is no exception.

1) INSPIRE COURAGE, gives a +1 on attack rolls for one thing. I think this is a big bonus. Everyone is range gets this bonus, on melee and ranged. This augments the Missle firing Wizard as well as the Monk pounding the snot out of his oppoents. A nce thing that may get patched is that the Bard perform this a s a free action, and can manuever and fire arrows while doing this. Really a no brainer for me.

2) FASCINATE Man, what a great power. You mean, I can perform fascinate on the big dumb enemy Barbarian, and as long a s my party does not directly threaten him, I can kill all his little helpers? OK, I'll take that one! One thing I like about this turned based combat is that,say my High initiative Bard can fascinate an enemy meanie, thereby cancelling out his action, then my main fighters can strike against them after he has 'acted'. This has saved my butt in a couple of battles.

3) COUNTERSONG OK, I have not used this enough to say much, but then, I have not finished thius game yet!

Bard Spells..Tend to be illusion based..What, no FireBalls? So what. They have access to spells like Suggestion, Scare, Fear..These are some great spells, especially against more common enemies. Heck, even the Zero level spell Daze is no joke against Bard. Thes espells help you turen a bad situation into a winable very quickly. Especially if you are just trying to nullify the enemies advantage.

My Bard has become the primary archer, with Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot singing his Inspire courage spell, he is very effective at Tumbling out and around sniping away at pesky enemy guys.

[ELB]

ANOTHER NOTE FROM THE AUTHOR

Great replies, thoughtful strategies, all. Thanks!

A few notes and clarifications...

1) Buff Your Animal Companions! Why did I not think of this? With spontaneous cast summons, Druids are quite potent in 3.5 (this means that they can convert any spell into an animal summoning spell, just as the cleric can convert any spell into a healing spell - TIP! Use the shift key to do this). To increase the potency of your summons, consider buffing them with spells like Mage Armor or Bull's Strength.

However, remember that, early on, summoning spells don't last long at all, so buffing at 1st or 2nd level might be a waste of a perfectly good spell. But buffing your animal companion is an excellent idea, as they remain until dismissed or killed!

Druids should definitely take both Spell Focus Conjuration and Augment Summons as feats. With their spontaneous summon ability, this is a no brainer.

2) Buff Your Mages Dex for Ranged Fire! Another great tip from a contributor above. Since your mage is likely to have a dex of 14-18 (especially true for Halflings, Elves, etc.), buffing dexterity an additional +4 can transform them into snipers. Whether you would want to burn extra feats on ranged abilities like Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Precise Shot, etc. is another matter, but worth considering.

CLARIFICATION: TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING

I have come to the understanding that your off-hand attack applies to each of your character's attack, and isn't just added in at the end (as I believe it used to be). Since this sounds confusing, I will clarify:

If a fighter raises in level to the point where they receive two natural attacks, with two-weapon fighting they will attack a grand total of four times. This makes two-weapon fighting more appealing. Still, the math shows little difference, making a few logical assumptions (see below).

The math for maximum damage with two attacks (assumes a fighter with 18 strength with weapon focus, greater weapon focus and weapon specialization:

(2d6+6+2) + (2d6+6+2) = 40 (greatsword)
[(1d6+4+2) + (1d6+2+2)] + [(1d6+4+2) + (1d6+2+2)] = 44 (shortsword)

Why did I assume a shortsword? Well, using the same weapon in both hands means far less feats to be focused and specialized in both hands. And, this is assuming that one would want to avoid the off-hand penalty for using a larger weapon. So, the maximum damage one could do with a small-sized weapon, I believe, is 6, hence shortsword.

Could use burn an exotic weapon feat and go with two ******* swords for 1d10, 1d10? Sure, but you'd get hit with a rather steep to hit penalty.

- E.

[Auzure]

About movement speed, dont forget about hastening your tanks. This negates that problem and you can have your 24+AC without having to move like a snail. (Also, it is easy to cast, b/c you can just click on the portraits, and you get to effect one creature per lv.)

Also, in tight circumstances, dont forget about the spell Enlarge, especially if you give them a long spear you can just about outreach a hill giant

[Zenon]

Here's another tip:

Is your spellcaster surrounded with no room to take a 5'step?

CASTING DEFENSIVELY:

Under the radial menu, there is a check box option to Cast Defensively. This is a skill based check (Concentration) dependent on the level of the spell cast. If you make the check you will not provoke Attacks of Opportunity from ANY foes who threaten you.

The down side: If you fail the check, the spell fizzles and does not go off.

Note: remeber to UNCHECK the box if you have no need to cast defensively to prevent spells from fizzling for no apparent reason.

Here is another important note for non- D&D er's:

Wizards of the Coast has posted on their site MOST of the D&D rules. Called the SRD (system reference document), it allows other developers of PnP products to make their game add-on for the PnP version compatible without violating copyrights.

What does this mean to you (the ToEE PC game owner)?

Well, most (if not all) of the rules are available FOR FREE on the internet! Want to know about cover bonuses? Check the SRD. Got a question about Casting Defensively? Check the SRD. Want to know what a creature's stats are? You guessed it, check the SRD.

To note how the ToEE game differs from the SRD rules, check the section in the ToEE manual near the back that lists the difference from the PnP rules.

Here's the link to the SRD:
http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35

Enjoy!

[GnatB]

If you get a second off hand attack automatically when you get your second primary attack, then that is a bug. You need a feat to get that second off hand attack. However, if memory serves, rangers, (and only rangers) get that feat for free at lvl 6, which is the same time they get that that second primary attack, so it just *seems* that it works that way.

[Bahamad]

Consider a potent combo to be the Spiked Chain and a weapon with reach (range longer than the little 5' circle, like 10' such as the longspear, or I believe the glaive (I'm not including the greatsword as it's not supposed to have reach)). Grab Improved Trip (prereq. Combat Expertise) and Ready vs. (your favorite thing, mine's Approach). When the interrupt comes, trip your opponent. You get a free attack (thanks to Improved Trip) as well as proning your opponent. Which makes for a +4 bonus to anyone who attacks the sorry sod.

"Well, duh!" you say with a roll of your eyes. But the real fun comes in having another reach weapon-wielding ally nearby (preferably flanking of course). As your opponent rises, you both get attacks of opportunity while leaving room for a person with 5' of reach (it'd also negate the melee penalty with ranged weapons in PnP, but if what's posted is true, simply being attacked by any melee weapon counts towards this penalty, reach or no).

Now, that foe will likely move to attack or somesuch. When they move, unless they're very careful and move only with a 5' step (which doesn't provoke AoO), they'll provoke even more attacks of opportunity! This makes for great positioning of a character with only a 5' reach who smashed that opponent while they were prone. Note that, although a fun combo, Combat Reflexes doesn't mix well for this situation as a player may only take one AoO per round per opponent.