A Thorough Explanation of Combat: How TOEE's Turn-Based System Works

[ELB]

In case the manual's explanation of combat is insufficient and confusing, I thought I'd lend my knowledge of combat basics to the uninitiated. Others may be able to better clarify certain aspects of D&D combat, and I welcome them to do so in replies, criticism and comments.

This will describe how TOEE works, though it is a generally accurate emulation of pencil & paper D&D, so everything should hold true for the table top game as well.

Okay, so here is how it all breaks down...

Your party is strolling around in real time. Then, it happens upon three foes (I am going to say "foes" because I want to keep this generic). Now, turn-based action begins.

INITIATIVE

First, everyone, friend and foe, rolls initiative. Initiative is based upon dexterity and determines combat order, meaning who goes first.

If two initiatives are equal, dexterity value is the tie breaker (if both have equal initiatives and dexterities, I have no idea what the tie breaker defaults to).

Why is it valuable to have a high initiative? Well, you get to go first. This could mean your fighter takes out an enemy caster before they get a mean spell off. It could also mean your cleric can cast a much needed buff before combat is joined. It could also mean your mage can launch a debilitating area of effect spell before the foe has a chance to act. Going first is good.

Initiative can also be delayed, and this will be discussed a bit later.

Note: The Improved Initiative feat, if taken, will add a significant +4 to any dexterity bonus for the purposes of calculating initiative.

THE SURPRISE ROUND

Once initiative is rolled (TOEE does this automatically), the surprise round begins, if there is one (sometimes, nobody is considered surprised).

The surprise round represents a window of time all its own, a time when those who surprise can act freely (move, attack, cast) while those who are surprised cannot (no counterspells, defense, etc.). In a sense, it is completely disconnected from the combat rounds (except that initiative rolls are applied to determine the order in which those who surprise proceed) which will begin immediately after the surprise round concludes.

Only those who surprise may act in the surprise round, and everyone else is simply skipped over, regardless of initiative. Keep in mind that sometimes this means that only one or several members of your party may act (the others did not surprise).

Note: if your character surprises the foe AND rolls an initiative for the following combat rounds that is higher than the foes, he/she will have a chance to act not once, but twice before the foe can react.

Note #2: The Listen skill can help you avoid being surprised.

TURNS AND ROUNDS

Uch, I hate this part. It gets quite confusing. But stick with me.

The Turn

A turn is a unit of time in combat during which only one character acts. That's confusing, yes?

Well, I suppose it's helpful to think of it as a window of opportunity. Say one guy rolled a 15 initiative, the next rolled a 14 and the last rolled a 13. A turn is the "window" of time guy #2 (with the 14 initiative) can act between the end of guy #1's turn and the beginning of guy #3's. Not only is it time, but it can also be looked at as what guy #2 can do during that time.

In TOEE, the turn may be simply viewed as "green and yellow time," and each represents the terribly confusing "partial action."

The Partial Action

Roughly speaking, two partial actions make up a turn. I say "roughly" because there are also things called full actions and free actions, which I will explain below.

So, what's a partial action? A move at your current movement rate is a partial action. A single attack is a partial action. Switching weapons is a partial action, unless you have the Quick Draw feat. Reloading a crossbow, but not a bow, is a partial action, unless you have the Rapid Reload feat. Casting a spell, most of the time, is a partial action. Readying an action is a partial action. Total defense is also. So is turning undead. There are quite a number of them.

So, you get two partial actions every turn, one for "green time" and one for "yellow time." Umm, yes, and no. Yes, you get two partial actions every turn. No, you can't use any partial action for green and yellow time.

Huh? Well, for the most part you can perform any partial action and any other during your turn. BUT, there are exceptions. You cannot perform two partial action attacks. Likewise, you cannot perform two partial action casts. But you can move and cast, move and attack, reload and shoot, etc.

But what about my dual weapon wielder attacking with both weapon in one turn? What about a 10th level fighter attacking multiple times in one turn? That's different. A dual weapon wielder may attack with both weapons in one turn as a FULL attack action. A higher level fighter may attack with the same weapon multiple times in one turn as his attack partial action. Neither is attacking as two partial actions. One is using a full action attack (main hand and off hand attack). The other is CAPABLE of attacking twice or more within the time allowed by an attack partial action.

So, I can't do two attack or cast partial actions. What about move actions? Yes, you may "double move."

The Full Action

So, what's a full action? A full action is one action that takes up both your green AND yellow time (performed instead of two partial actions). Withdrawing, running, attacking with both weapons as a dual wielder, casting a summoning spell, a coupe de grace attack, and others are full actions.

The Free Action

If a full action takes up both my green and yellow time, can I do anything else?

Yes, you can perform "free actions." There are a number of free actions in TOEE. For example, entering a barbarian rage is a free action. Free actions, by definition, take neither green nor yellow time.

And, the 5' Step is a form of free action, but with a key restriction: you cannot otherwise move that turn. So, you can take it before or after two partial actions, or before or after a full action, as long as neither the partial actions nor the full action included movement of any kind.

What are some examples of the 5' Step? 5' Step and shoot. 5' Step and cast. 5' step, reload and shoot. 5' step, switch weapons and reload. Attack with a reach weapon and 5' step. 5' step and attack with both the main and off hand. 5' step and coupe de grace.

You may only take one 5' Step per turn.

So What's a Round?

A round is the time it takes for, or the process of everyone involved in combat taking one turn.

How to picture a round. Everyone's initiative is layed out on a clock. The guy with the highest initiative goes at 12, the next guy at 2, the next at 4, etc., with the final guy going sometime around 11. A round is the time it takes for, or the process of the hand moving from 12 back to 12 again - everyone has had one turn.

Note: The round calculation can begin with any player, so it can represent the "clock moving from 2 back to 2 again or 10 back to 10 again, etc." This is especially useful for casters whose spells may have one round or multiple round durations. In this case, clearly, the round calculation begins and ends with their turn (the one in which they cast the spell).

So, if a spell like True Strike lasts a round, what does that mean? It means you can cast it and then use it this turn, or wait until everyone else has gone once after you, and use it the next. But if you wait beyond that second turn, the round has ended and the spell's gone.

COMBAT BEGINS

Now it is crucial to take a look at initiative order. Let's say it breaks down as follows:

Fighter 22 (initiative roll)
Rogue 18
Foe A 17
Mage 14
Foe B 13
Foe C 13
Cleric 8
Druid 2

This is now the order of combat. If, say, the fighter and the cleric surprised the foes, then they have already had a chance to act. Furthermore, the fighter, because of his high initiative, will have yet another chance to act before the foes can react. The cleric, with his low initiative, will not.

Flatfooted

Flatfooted is another key concept in D&D (designated by a pair of boots icon on a character's or foe's portrait).

Basically, once combat is joined, you are considered flatfooted until you act for the first time, always. Your flatfooted status ends as soon as your initiative comes up for the first time.

What does flatfooted do? Well, it represents, more or less, being unprepared. As such, your dexterity bonus to AC doesn't apply while flatfooted. Armor, which doesn't care whether you are prepared or asleep, bonus to AC still applies. Some characters have abilities, etc., that prevent them from being flatfooted.

Can you ever become flatfooted after your initiative has arrived? Yes, in certain states where you are unable to react you effectively become re-flatfooted. Being paralyzed, frozen, and so on (times when you could not possibly defend yourself) may cause you to be considered flatfooted. Again, your armor AC bonus still applies, since even if you are dazed or paralyzed, your foe still needs to be able to cut through your armor to damage you.

Once In Combat

Now it is the fighter's turn, as he rolled the highest initiative. He can choose to take his turn, taking two partial actions or a full action, etc., as described above. Or, he can delay his initiative.

While you can never set a character's initiative forward, you can always set it back (just slide the character portrait at the top of your screen).

Why would I ever delay my initiative?

There are many sound reasons to delay one's initiative. Here are just a few:

- You want your cleric to buff your fighter before the fighter wades into melee.
- You want your wizard to drop his area of effect bomb before engaging in melee.
- You want your cleric to turn undead first, so you can see what, if anything, is left standing that might need mopping up.
- You want your barbarian to first move in and complete the flank, so your fighter, who is already on the far side of the foe, also gets the +2 to hit this turn.
- You prefer for your reach weapon wielder to strike first and then have your fighter move into melee in front of him, that way the fighter won't conceal the foe.
- You want to see if your ranger can take out that nearly dead foe from range before deciding whether to waste your barbarian's move closing with that foe, or whether he can proceed on to the next one.

Note: You may delay your initiative during any of your turns. You do not have to choose to delay your initiative during your first turn. For example, you may find that after your fighter has completed three turns, you'd like him to take his upcoming turn AFTER your cleric. Simply slide his portrait (up at the top) to the position directly behind your cleric. He will now go right after. And once that turn arrives, you may again choose whether to delay his initiative or go at that point.

In other words, there is no limit to delaying your turn.

At this point, combat will continue to proceed according to initiative order.

ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY

There are times during combat when, outside of your turn, you will earn a free attack, called an Attack Of Opportunity. Basically, you earn one any time your foe performs an action that leaves him/her/it vulnerable inside your "threatened space."

What is threatened space? Threatened space is the radius reach of your armed weapon. Ordinarily, this is 5' in every direction, hence "radius." With a reach weapon, it is 10'. With a bow, it is nowhere (attacks of opporunity don't apply to ranged weapons).

Note: Holding down the ALT key during your character's turn will show all of the foe's threatened spaces as yellow-shaded radii (or radiuses, whichever you prefer).

So, what actions provoke an attack of opportunity? Page 107 of your TOEE manual breaks them down nicely. A few of note are any of the following performed within threatened space:

- Moving more than a 5' step (other than withdrawing, which is a full action move the specific purpose of which is to avoid an attack of opportunity).
- Casting.
- Getting up from prone, as in after being tripped.
- Firing a ranged weapon.
- Moving out of a threatened space. It's like the Hotel California, you can move in any time you like, but you can never leave (without taking an AOO).

If you are interested in learning about tactics, specific actions and moves you can use during combat, I suggest you look at the following thread:

http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums...hreadid=320253

Feel free to expand, correct, comment or criticize any of the above. I value your input.

- ELB

[Phosphor]

Confusing, but still more comprehensive than the manual!

But if initiative is modified by Dexterity, why does my 20 DEX Elf Monk always go last? She's constantly at the end of the initiative bar..

[Marcus Artorius]

Originally posted by Phosphor
Confusing, but still more comprehensive than the manual!

But if initiative is modified by Dexterity, why does my 20 DEX Elf Monk always go last? She's constantly at the end of the initiative bar..

Because you have to roll for initiative. If somebody rolls higher than you, they have a higher chance of going before you.

[ELB]

It is hard not to be confused by this stuff, and equally hard to explain it in words, without the help of illustrations or, even better, miniatures and a grid.

As for why your high dexterity character seems to always go last, I've no idea. Perhaps he/she always gets a bum role. Perhaps he is easily surprised (bad Listen skill). Perhaps TOEE is broken (that wouldn't be a surprise).

But, technically, with a high dexterity he/she will have a high initiative, and should be high up in the order more often than not.

- ELB

[Sir.Kalthorine]

Nicely done Elb... again!

[Phosphor]

Originally posted by ELB
It is hard not to be confused by this stuff, and equally hard to explain it in words, without the help of illustrations or, even better, miniatures and a grid.

As for why your high dexterity character seems to always go last, I've no idea. Perhaps he/she always gets a bum role. Perhaps he is easily surprised (bad Listen skill). Perhaps TOEE is broken (that wouldn't be a surprise).

But, technically, with a high dexterity he/she will have a high initiative, and should be high up in the order more often than not.

- ELB

I'm a long time D&D player (AD&D that is), and the whole turn/round thing has always thrown me off. Never got the hang of it for some reason..
I'd accept that a high DEX character might go last on occasion due to lousy rolls, but it seems a constant problem. She's never in the early stages of combat, but is always last in line. Always.
Perhaps it's a low Listen skill, I'm not sure what her ranks in that skill are (but I think it's quite high, actually - she's my scout and is built as such).
Does the Listen skill (and Spot) get figured for each character individually in terms of initiative and surprise, or is a group thing - either they're surprised or not, together?

[Galileo]

Someone make this sticky - now! Is anyone out there...

Great job!

[ELB]

Technically, your being surprised is affected by your Listen skill, but not your initiative. I know I probably confused you by saying that she might always seem to go last based on Listen and surprised, but, here is how surprise and initiative works, or is supposed to:

Initiative is rolled:

A = 22 (surprised)
B = 17 (does surprise)
C = 15 (surprised)
D = 14 (surprised)
E = 8 (does surprise)

Note that surprise has nothing to do with initiative (strange as that seems). Surprise has to do with who came up upon whom first, whether a group was prepared and lying in wait or simply meandering around, or sleeping, who has better detection skills, like Listen, and so on.

Think of it this way. Surprise is about getting the jump on the other guy. Sometimes you walk in on him unawares. Sometimes he is lurking in a shadow just waiting for you to stumble upon him.

Initiative is about reaction time once you know you're in combat. You might have just been surprised by the Orc waiting up in the tree, but you're faster on the draw and your sword is out of its sheath quicker than anyone else. That's initiative.

So, B and E surprised the others. So, B and E can take advantage of the surprise round and may act once before anyone else can, even though their initiatives are not the highest.

The surprise round therefore consists of B taking a turn and E taking a turn. This also means that B and E are no longer flatfooted. The surprise round then ends.

Now, normal combat begins, and A goes first, per his high initiative role. A is also now no longer flatfooted.

B now goes again.

And so on and so forth.

So, even though B and E went first, due to surprise, you can see how this technically didn't affect initiative.

In conclusion, I cannot explain why your character would consistently go at the back of the pack. It makes no sense unless TOEE is broken or miscalculating.

Next time you play, look at the rolls (you know how to do that, yes?). It will tell you who rolled what for initiative and break it down as well.

- ELB

[Hawkstrike]

Note that

(1) ToEE doesn't implement proper surprise rounds, where all you can execute is a standard action. Monsters do enter combat properly, and you may beat them in initiative, but the "surprise rounds" in ToEE are actually full rounds, not the D&D-standard surprise rounds. POR2 actually got this right, for those interested.

(2) "Partial Actions" no longer exist in D&D 3.5. There are five types of actions: full-round, standard, move, free, and no action. What used to be a partial action is now a standard action. A round of combat could be a full round action, or a standard plus move action (though a second move action may be substituted for the standard action). Any number (DM discretion) of free & partial actions may occur in a round. Also, if you take a full round action, or move no distance during your move actions, you may take a 5' step before or after (during per PnP rules, but not implemented).

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Hawkstrike
Also, if you take a full round action, or move no distance during your move actions, you may take a 5' step before or after (during per PnP rules, but not implemented).

This is actually implemented: If you choose "Full Attack" from the radial or by assigned key, you'll be able to make your attacks one at a time, and can perform a 5' move between attacks. If you simply click on the enemy and flail away at him, you won't be given the opportunity to move during the attacks.

I'm not sure what other full round actions you can take where you might move during the action and have it make a difference between moving before/after. The only other case I can think of might be a sorceror using a metamagic feat that moves during the casting of the spell....but how this differs from moving before or after, I'm not entirely sure.

[Spectral Miasma]

Also, in the preferences menu, it is possible to unmark 'end turn after default action' and choose never in the 'end turn if time remaining' pulldown menu. This should let you do a full round action and then a 5' step (so this is in fact implemented correctly), but the default is to end the turn so as to not confuse newbies too much. I mean, if you were new to DnD, did an attack, saw that you had time remaining, but when you tried to move the computer told you 'target too far' because you didn't select 5' step manually, you'd probably be *****ing about this 'bug' right now

[Sir.Kalthorine]

Want to hear a really good joke?

Here it is:

Request for this thread to be made sticky

Good one eh?

Nice... never knew that listen was that vital... I might go through my characters again... For the moment my Rogue is the main listener, but considering she ain't a spellcaster or meatshield, this looks like a bit of waste...

(Oh, and this post was mainly just a way of bumping the post, until it becomes sticky)

[GnatB]

Incidentally...

20 dex in terms of initiative isn't *that* big a deal.

That only comes out to +5 to your initiative. A 16 dex hobgoblin with the improved initiative feat would have a + 7 to initiative.

and, incidentally, since you add your initiative bonus to a d20 to get your actual initiative, each point of initiative is "only" a 5% better chance to go earlier... more or less. i.e. somebody with +7 to initiative vs. somebody with +6 to initiative would only go first 5% more often, or thereabouts. (assuming same dex.. 10% with more dex, as tie would go to guy with more dex...)

[Sir.Kalthorine]

Yet another ELB classic worthy of a major [COLOR=orange-red]BUMP[/color]

[ModRael1]

*bumpage*

[mindflayer213]

bump

[Koranth Olina]

Not sure if this should go in the strategy section or here, but since it concerns turn based, I suppose this will do. First off, if you haven't changed the options in the game for combat to end from 5 foot step to never, DO IT NOW. I cannot tell you how much of a HUGE difference this will make. Normally, you are close to the baddie and just hit the cursor over him to attack. You kill him off, your turn is over and it moves on to the next guy. You are missing out on your 5 foot step. Now, though that might not seem like much, let me assure you, it is. Continuing on, the round goes by and it's your turn again. The opponent is 10' away, so you click on him, run over and get one attack. Here is where you missed out. If last round, you took a five foot step towards him, and then did so again at the beginning of this round, you would be able (and in range) to do a full attack, which even if you only get 2 attacks, that is 1 more than you had from moving 10 feet and attacking. Imaging doing this 3 times a battle. That's 3 extra attacks you are missing out on. Now, lets say it's your fighter with 2 weapons.... you are missing out on an insane amount of attacks every battle. In the later stages of the game, the battles are huge, and even though you can do considerable damage, they tend to last a long time. that extra 5 foot step can save your life. I can't even tell you about how great it is for spell casters to maneuver around, archers to get out from behind another player for a clear shot with no cover penalties. Anyway, I could ramble on about it, but you HAVE to do it. In game, go to options. The default setting for end turn is 5 foot step. Change it to never. This means you will have to hit the return button after every character moves, which is a little more of a nuisance than just letting the computer do it, but what you are giving up makes it all worthwhile.

[Koranth Olina]

And a bump for good measure.

[Ferros]

Originally posted by Koranth Olina
Not sure if this should go in the strategy section or here, but since it concerns turn based, I suppose this will do. First off, if you haven't changed the options in the game for combat to end from 5 foot step to never, DO IT NOW. I cannot tell you how much of a HUGE difference this will make. Normally, you are close to the baddie and just hit the cursor over him to attack. You kill him off, your turn is over and it moves on to the next guy. You are missing out on your 5 foot step. Now, though that might not seem like much, let me assure you, it is. Continuing on, the round goes by and it's your turn again. The opponent is 10' away, so you click on him, run over and get one attack. Here is where you missed out. If last round, you took a five foot step towards him, and then did so again at the beginning of this round, you would be able (and in range) to do a full attack, which even if you only get 2 attacks, that is 1 more than you had from moving 10 feet and attacking. Imaging doing this 3 times a battle. That's 3 extra attacks you are missing out on. Now, lets say it's your fighter with 2 weapons.... you are missing out on an insane amount of attacks every battle. In the later stages of the game, the battles are huge, and even though you can do considerable damage, they tend to last a long time. that extra 5 foot step can save your life. I can't even tell you about how great it is for spell casters to maneuver around, archers to get out from behind another player for a clear shot with no cover penalties. Anyway, I could ramble on about it, but you HAVE to do it. In game, go to options. The default setting for end turn is 5 foot step. Change it to never. This means you will have to hit the return button after every character moves, which is a little more of a nuisance than just letting the computer do it, but what you are giving up makes it all worthwhile.

Thats a very good tip! Thanks.

Ferros

[Sir.Kalthorine]

bump

[Sir.Kalthorine]

bump... and STICKY PLEASE!

[gygaxian]

The most important concept in ToEE (and D&D) is "a high number is best".

You want a high number for Armor Class, Hit Points, Saving Throws...everything, and gold too

Throughout the game a number is randomly generated between 1 and 20 (called die-20 or "d20") then the rules add modifiers to this random roll based on the situation.

This randomness keeps things interesting rather than always predictable.
Your best fighter will miss sometimes due to bad luck and your wizard will land that critical hit just when you don't expect it.
You can not get rid of the randomness, but you can WORK THE SYSTEM to your advantage:

There are MANY modifiers in the game, +2 sword, +1 cloak, +2 flanking, +2 when charging, and more.
To become good at the game you need to understand how the numbers can help or hurt your success in the game. The more +'s, the better. Remember your opponents play by the same rules that you do, so you can use this knowledge to your advantage!

To become an "expert", you will need to learn all of the modifiers, when they happen, when you think they might happen, but don't due to an obscure rule.. Learn how to make the good mods happen for you and how to avoid the penalties to these d20 rolls -- Learn to use the rules in your favor and use the same knowledge to put the monsters in a hard to win situation.

You will also have to learn which rules Troika did differently than the D&D pen & pencil game, and which rules they did not even put in ToEE. This all can be done by studying the manual, then playing a lot and reading these forums to find out why something did not happen like you expected. .

Expect to start over or replay a few times -- and have Fun with it!

If you read this far and are not bored yet, you might yet become a ToEE expert, and you are ready for the next part:

Get comfortable in your chair, with snacks and plenty of drink and Click the SRD link below

d20 SRD (rules): http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35

If you make it through 30% of the above link, you will probably be wondering when they are going to mail you your advanced degree. (just kidding : )
You will also understand just how hard it is to create a game like this, if its this hard to learn as a player.

Originally posted by ELB Note: if your character surprises the foe AND rolls an initiative for the following combat rounds that is higher than the foes, he/she will have a chance to act not once, but twice before the foe can react.
- ELB [/b]

Maybe I just rush into battles, but Ive never noticed a surprise round. While your quote is true in PnP D&D, are you sure Surprise is properly in ToEE ?

[gygaxian]

Each character on their initiative turn (when the character portrait is the left most on the top of the screen) has enough "time" to do either:

1 ) A full round action
OR
2 ) A standard action AND a movement action

Most of the time you will do #2. Move then attack once, or attack once then move. Or cast a spell then move, or move then cast.

The rules list what Standard actions are but from my memory..there is: Attack once with hand or weapon, Cast a Spell, Use a magic item, Drink a potion, use a special ability, "Total Defense" action, Trip attack, and maybe a couple more.

The important thing is that these actions ALWAYS use up exactly half of your colored bar in Toee.

What is left after a standard action is your "movement" allowance. You dont have to move, as you have likely figured out already. You can press Space Bar and the action will pass to the next creature to the right on the initiative bar up top.

The movement bar is either used up by moving... OR by doing an action that takes up the "time" you could have spent moving by doing something else like: re-loading a crossbow, standing up after a trip attack, looking into the character's inventory or changing what your character holds in hand.
If you do one of these actions instead of moving, your total movement bar will empty and the turn will probably pass to the next creature. You have to move, or do these move-like actions: you can not do both in the same turn after you have already taken a standard action.

You MAY use your standard action as a move or move-like action. So you can move twice as far as a normal move, or you may reload a crossbow then move, or stand up from a trip then move.

You MAY NOT use a move action as a standard action. If you have already attacked or used an item, you may not do so again this turn.

If you want to attack more than once, an ability characters get as the level-up in power, you need to use the Full-round action.
Luckily in Toee, the program does this for you. If you have two attacks, it will have your character swing twice in an attempt to kill the monster. However, by using the radial menu you may manually Chose to only take 1 attack, rather than 2 or more. This choice allows a higher level character to reserve time on the bar after this standard action, to do a move or move-like action.

There is a special action called "5-foot step" that ELB describes well above. Basically, know that you can either move as your move action, or do a move-like action then do a 5' step, or perform a Full round action then take a 5' step. (or you can take the step before any of these actions) You can even step once between attacks in a Full attack sequence, but only if you chose "Full Attack" from the radial menu. The game will often skip over this 5' step unless you chose it from the radial menu first, or set up the game options like people describe in the posts before mind.

This only looks a bit complicated when its all written out.
Chances are most people understand these basics already.

The important thing to know is you can manually tell the game exactly what you want to do from the radial menu. They game will skip some things for you to make things run smoother and easier. If you need to do something detailed, be sure to use the menu.

Read the manual to know what to do.
Hold Down that ALT key before your character moves to see the path of movement before the move. You can then double click at the destination to arrive exactly where you expect.
This is important for tactics, obviously.

[GFandango]

Originally posted by ELB
A higher level fighter may attack with the same weapon multiple times in one turn as his attack partial action. Neither is attacking as two partial actions. One is using a full action attack (main hand and off hand attack). The other is CAPABLE of attacking twice or more within the time allowed by an attack partial action.

- ELB

This is not true. Attacking more than once due to high BAB still requires a full action attack (confirmed with SRD 3.5 : http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatI.rtf).

Otherwise, very comprehensive post!

[Sir.Kalthorine]

Just giving this a weekly bump to ensure it is not removed as part of the regular board "sweep-and-unsticky" policy

[Velarin]

In games like BG2 and PoR2 I would stick my barbarian out in front with a long weapon and hold my other characters back to get a round of ranged attacks in on incoming enemy.

If anyone survived, then I could have my fighter or ranger draw melee weapons and double up with the barbarian, or continue picking them off at range...

Is this something that could work here, or is ranged combat just something to avoid all together?

(I'm going to get a copy of the game next week )

[Karma]

Originally posted by Velarin
In games like BG2 and PoR2 I would stick my barbarian out in front with a long weapon and hold my other characters back to get a round of ranged attacks in on incoming enemy.

If anyone survived, then I could have my fighter or ranger draw melee weapons and double up with the barbarian, or continue picking them off at range...

Is this something that could work here, or is ranged combat just something to avoid all together?

It's doable, but it's not a good tactic in most situations, for a couple of reasons.

First, ranged weapons don't get strength bonuses to damage whilst melee weapons do, so you'll be dealing significantly less damage this way.

Second, enemies get cover bonuses if there's someone between them and your character, including other party members, so in order for ranged attacks to be effective, you need to spread your group out and make sure your melee front-man is off to one side out of their line of fire. This is often impossible due to terrain, and is also just asking for your melee guy to get flanked, at which point he'll be chopped into small pieces before your ranged guys can pick off his attackers.

So basically, stick to melee or spells where possible.

[Signal-9]

Excellent work, alot of new comers to D&D could use this. Some of the older D&D players could also.

At first someone who is new to D&D will get upset with the turned based mechanics. But once you get used to it, TOEE's combat mechanics are very nice.

Anyhow... I hope everyone has learned something from this guys thread.

*CHEERS*

[hywel69]

Actually, you DO get some strength bonus to range attacks! I did not know this until I looked into it. I could not see the reason why anyone would pick some weak bows over strong crossbows, but...

In the TOEE manual p24 (UK version) it says that you get a strength bonus to damage if you use a recurve bow! This is kinda cool and makes sense. You also get a strength bonus of javelins. So a Javelin thrown by a 20STR fighter is quite good!

The bad news is that a strength penalty is applied if the bow is not a recurve bow...also from the manual p24.

Can anyone shed some more light on this.

Cheers

H