ToEE is one of the top 10 games of the year!

[Hawkstrike]

At least according to the mainstream press. TIME magazine rated ToEE one of its top ten games of 2003 (#6, to be precise) in its November 17th issue:

A vintage adventure game gets its computerized revival -- no dice necessary

Remember Dungeons & Dragons, that game for anyone who was too smart for his own good in high school and didn't have a date on Friday night? Time was, you needed a pencil, books of character information, a sturdy imagination, similarly afflicted friends, and the ever-present 20-sided dice to play the game.

Not anymore. Temple of Elemental Evil (PC, $45, Atari) is a computerized homage to one of the best-loved adventure games of all time, enhanced with up-to-date graphics. As with the original, loading up your character (and up to four fellow adventurers) with your choice of spells and skills is almost as fun as the action itself. Your goal for the game depends on these choices: make yourself morally good, and you must rescue a missing elf princess from the eponymous temple; choose the path of the evildoers, and you may end up taking over the place. If Dungeons & Dragons had been this much fun, the geeks would have had a lot more dates.

One wonders where they were for Baldur's Gate (though I note that NWN didn't receive this sort of recognition last year).

[The Sage]

The question is whether this says more about the quality of ToEE or the lack of quality games that we have see this year...

[Exitium]

I just posted the news on the RPG Codex. I'm glad to see this kind of high acclaim review coming out for a well-deserving game. I just don't see why crap like NWN get most of the praise from most press. Glad to see that intelligent press picked up on TOEE.

[Volourn]

I like Time as a magazine; but what exactly do they know about crpgs. Plus, we all know reviewers suck.. unless, like in Exitium's case, they like his fanboyish wet dream... a Troika game.

[Exitium]

What exactly to most online or offline game reviewers even know about CRPGs? Most of them complained that TOEE's ruleset was too 'difficult' when in comparison with Diablo 2, is relatively easy.

We're talking about fun factor. I'll be damned if someone says that Sid Meier's Gettysburg is a better game tha Civilization based on game mechanics alone.

[Volourn]

Yeah; but not like Times' little article was impressive either. They basically tell you nothing about the game except it rocks. Ooo... How insightful.

As for the on line reviews. And? No review means much by itself. I, for one, disagree with this notion that TOEE is complicated. It isn't. It's very easy to figure out how to play the game even with all the changes.

Still, that isn't the point. If Time had a "Worst 10 Games of 2003", and TOEE was on it, you'd surely be all over them like a rabid fanboy. Heck, I'd be on them too. TOEE is neither deserving of either type of top 10 - though it is in the top 10 for crpgs this year.

Time isn't a game magazine. If I were to follow reviews; I'd take stock of an organization - either on-line or off - that are actually dedicated to games since they tend to know what theya re talking about.

It's also pretty fitting that they never mentioned the massive complaints about the game like the game is perfect, or something - unless there's more to the tidbit then the bit shown then I'll take this complaint back. That sure is good journalism there, and Time has no exuse because they are Time.

And, before you talk about Time being the Saviour to Game reviewers; just look at the other nine choices for top ten. I rest my case.

[Exitium]

oh yeah I hear Gamer's Hell is really PROFESSHUNAL this time of year.

They surely know what they're talking about!

[Volourn]

Like I was giving the thumbs up to on line sites other than to say they are dedicated to games. Plus, who says I like GH? Anyays, nice to know how you didn't reply about the other 9 games on the Great Time's Top 10 List? Not so bright are they?

[Thalin]

Hrm, i don't agree that it should be on the top ten list...

[Shadowstrider]

Originally posted by Exitium
I just posted the news on the RPG Codex. I'm glad to see this kind of high acclaim review coming out for a well-deserving game. I just don't see why crap like NWN get most of the praise from most press. Glad to see that intelligent press picked up on TOEE.

This might as well read:

This magazine agrees with me, they're smart. Anyone that disagrees is stupid.

[Volourn]

Yup, espicially, to repeat something that Exitium is convinetly ignoring as it proves that Time isn't as smart as he says, just look at the other nine games on the list.

[Lumign]

No mention of Max Payne 2 or Call of Duty? Or even KotOR?

I liked Tron 2.0, I think Soul Calibur deserves its place but Karaoke thing and Simpsons GTA-ripoff?

[newc0253]

Originally posted by Volourn
Time isn't a game magazine. If I were to follow reviews; I'd take stock of an organization - either on-line or off - that are actually dedicated to games since they tend to know what theya re talking about.

who cares whether Time isn't a gamers magazine? especially when your average reviewer in a gamer magazine is usually a 16-18 year old whose idea of a perfect RPG is Diablo, someone whose never played PnP and whose idea of good fantasy writing is RA fricking Salvatore.

besides, the significance of Time's mention isn't in what Time knows about console or computer games (which is probably very little). what makes it important is that Time's weekly readership is probably greater than the combined annual readership of all the gamers magazines over the past 5 years. after all, atari stockholders give less than a rat's ass whether game X or Y gets a 98.7% rating from Dateless Computer Nerd Gamer Magazine. Time Magazine, on the other hand, is something they've heard of or maybe even read. Bioware would kill to get that kind of press coverage.

[dinsdale]

This is wonderful news

Atari/Troika can smugly continue to ship unfinished rubbish with critical acclaim, how great for consumers.

[Thalin]

Originally posted by dinsdale
This is wonderful news

Atari/Troika can smugly continue to ship unfinished rubbish with critical acclaim, how great for consumers.

Yep, i don't doubt it...

[Volourn]

The point is Newc, how many of Times' readers who don't read gaming magazines actually care about these games/ Besdies, any top 10 list that has the Simpsons game on it kinda loses all respect.

As for BIO killing to get that kinda press, they obviously don't need to since all the whining we hear about their games being over hyped.

The Time bit is an advertisement, nothing more.

But what a place to run an ad! That kind of exposure is priceless. I remember seeing Baldur's Gate written up in TV Guide's "Christmas Gift Picks" a few years ago, same type of thing. That one ultimately led to my receiving it as a gift. These ads reach thousands of holiday shoppers who are wondering what to get for their relatives and friends. If you want to sell a milion copies of a game, mass media is the way to advertise it. GraphicGamer Magazines and GameHype Websites just don't have the mass market reach. This is one case where Troika's association with Atari is a really good thing.

[brooklynjames]

Originally posted by Volourn
The point is Newc, how many of Times' readers who don't read gaming magazines actually care about these games/ Besdies, any top 10 list that has the Simpsons game on it kinda loses all respect.

As for BIO killing to get that kinda press, they obviously don't need to since all the whining we hear about their games being over hyped.

This is kinda covered by some of the posts, but... understand that the reason that everyone on these boards is so p*ssed is that this game when it's finally fixed WILL be the RPG we've all loved and wouldn't it be great if they then started to churn out all the PnP modules? Right?

Well, this kind of exposure is the sort of thing that drives the sales that'll make that happen. You are right to be skeptical as to the quality of the review, but all of those "readers who don't read gaming magazines" are the grandmas and grandpas who buy junior games for Christmas/b-day and that's what makes the difference between a game that breaks even and a hit that gets made into sequels (and which gets 2nd and 3rd patches) - and places like Time are the only place they get their information on which games to buy. Thus, this is really, really good news.

[newc0253]

Originally posted by Volourn
[b]The point is Newc, how many of Times' readers who don't read gaming magazines actually care about these games/ Besdies, any top 10 list that has the Simpsons game on it kinda loses all respect.

as argyle and another poster already pointed out, the point of TOEE making Time's list isn't any kind of critical validation of the game's worth, it's that Aunt Jenny and 4 million other gift-buying Time readers know what to buy their nephews for Christmas.

p.s. if Bio had made Time's list, you'd probably already have received an email from them telling you about it.

[dinsdale]

newc & brooklynjames

What incentive is there for Atari/Troika to continue repairing this game? That "award" was won on the basis of the release version, if anything, those increased sales may prompt Atari to simply take the money and dispense with development costs.

If you're in business and want to make money, why spend what appear to be unnecessary development costs?

[Thaylen]

Originally posted by Exitium
I just don't see why crap like NWN get most of the praise from most press. Glad to see that intelligent press picked up on TOEE.

Whatever. I take it you're a pretty easy to please person. ToEE is a half-baked product that never should've been released in the state it shipped in. Too many people are easily duped. NWN deserved more praise than it got for the strides it took to be a groundbreaking product. ToEE is a simple-minded dungeon crawler that's been done over and over and over and over and...you get the point. ToEE deserves no praise whatsoever. Wake up.

[brooklynjames]

Cool username, by the way.

The simple answer is MORE money:

-Time review prompts many, many more "mainstream" purchases especially around Christmas (still weeks away).

-Fix game before these mainstream purchases (haven't checked the patch yet, but general reaction seems to be that they've ALREADY handled the bugs that would have elicited severe negative reactions, especially from the non-D&D-initiated).

-Mainstream gamers are happier with game quality.

-Mainstream gamers are more likely to purchase, say, an "Against the Giants" game.

-You've created an ongoing franchise that could produce literally dozens of games (based on existing code with game design, narrative, etc. all already 80%-90% completed - therfore much cheaper, easier and quicker to publish) with a devoted following willing to pick 'em up, REGARDLESS of reviews.

The key is really to slay them with the first game or two and people (especially grandma and grandpa who remember how successful a gift ToEE was) will keep buying games of that franchise. So it's in their best interest to capitalize on this review and keep fixing at least until Christmas. Even if they judge the current version of the game to be good enough for mainstreamers and therefore don't put out a 2nd patch (I doubt this'll happen, but it could given the short time left 'til the holidays) the success of the first game leads to a second and we can only assume the good folks at Troika (or whichever developer gets the gig) will include new fixes in the second game. At least that's how it should work in theory.

Thaylen - if you think it's such a piece of crap, why are you concerned enough to post on this board? I assume it's because, like the rest of us, you're a D&D fan looking for the best translation to PC/console (I mean this seriously - not trying to start a flame war). So, while I agree with you that the initial release was substandard, if it is properly patched and more games are published based on the PnP modules and with the highest adherence to the PnP rules, won't that be a good thing in the end? I'm NOT defending the October release quality here - just looking at the overall picture.

[newc0253]

Originally posted by dinsdale
newc & brooklynjames
What incentive is there for Atari/Troika to continue repairing this game? That "award" was won on the basis of the release version, if anything, those increased sales may prompt Atari to simply take the money and dispense with development costs.

not really. the 'development costs' (by which, i assume you mean the money put aside to make patches) were likely built into the publishing deal a long time ago, so that there's no question of the 'money' being saved at this stage.

there's plenty of good reasons to hate atari, but the idea that they'd pick up the phone to troika and say 'stop working on the patch' because they got good press coverage is a little silly.

[dinsdale]

Originally posted by newc0253
not really. the 'development costs' (by which, i assume you mean the money put aside to make patches) were likely built into the publishing deal a long time ago, so that there's no question of the 'money' being saved at this stage.

there's plenty of good reasons to hate atari, but the idea that they'd pick up the phone to troika and say 'stop working on the patch' because they got good press coverage is a little silly.

I don't hate Atari, but I don't see a post explaining patch 2 being in the works.

Patch cost doesn't appear to already be in the budget, otherwise a patch would have begun after the game went gold, not after the game was released.

[suibhne]

Originally posted by dinsdale
I don't hate Atari, but I don't see a post explaining patch 2 being in the works.

Patch cost doesn't appear to already be in the budget, otherwise a patch would have begun after the game went gold, not after the game was released.

Be patient - the patch was just released.

But yes, you're spot-on with the latter point: Troika admitted there was no support contract in place when the game shipped. That's obviously changed now, of course, but who knows whether Atari has contracted any longer-term support rather than leaving it at this single patch.

The best thing about this publicity, from my perspective, is that it means Atari has decided that ToEE actually has great potential - and that means that our chances of seeing a sequel are getting better and better.

[pixie]

Press can be bought... I could give you a few examples but them they would sue me...

But you know... maybe THEY ARE RIGHT! Maybe TOEE is really on the top 10 list, this all leads to a conclusion I've drawn a few months ago... General game quality has dropped SHARPLY these past months, and I'm afraid unless the market reacts by NOT buying crap with pretty graphics it will keep dropping until one day (which is not too far...) games are made only for the "brainless moron" market...

I do not intend to be offensive, I also bought the game (by mistake, apparently) and now I am fighting hard to remove this sticker on my forehead reading "brainless moron to be..."

My advice to you... Get wiser... do the same, remove the sticker.

Never buy a combat system (even if a good one) cleverly desguised as an D&D game
Never buy an unfinished program...

TOEE has to be top 10 in many ways... Most of them NOT nice...

[newc0253]

Originally posted by suibhne
Troika admitted there was no support contract in place when the game shipped.

they did? where?

[dinsdale]

Originally posted by newc0253
they did? where?

You'll have to do a search, there were some posts from Troika employees regarding their hands being tied over patching the game.