Ideal Ironman Party?

[drew22]

Okay, the thread about Ironman first time through has me convinced to try it.

I am curious to find out what other people are considering for their party, specifically those going Ironman.

I am going with the following:

Alignment Chaotic Good.

Dwarf Fighter - fighting with shield and dwarven waraxe.
Human Cleric of Pelor - domains of Good and Sun.
Elf Ranger/Rogue - Missile support with occasional sneak attacks.
Elf Wizard - not sure if specializing or not.
Human Bard - Party diplomat.

I will not be leaving Hommlet without 1 more fighter type as an NPC.

I think this combo will give me a well rounded party for whatever I encounter.

[Gulshog]

Actually a CG party should go with an elven priest of Corellon. They make great backup fighters, when not casting spells. This priest type has been an old favorite of mine for a LONG time.

[roonechr]

My (first) plan is to use a Lawful Good party with a Paladin, two Clerics, a Fighter6/Rogue4, and a Wizard, all human. Key tactical considersations include:

- A Paladin has special abilites (smite and spells) that help against evil creatures. He also has better Wil and Ref saves than a fighter thanks to divine grace which keeps him from being taken out as easily by dominate or even fireball. This, combined with immunity to fear can keep him in a fight that a fighter or barbarian might be removed from.
- A Paladin can act as a front man with both Diplomacy and Sense Motive in a party without a Bard or talky Rogue.
- Two Clerics ensure that you will never be at loss for healing, and the Paladin helps a bit here as well.
- A Cleirc with a good Cha, the Sun domain, and Improved Turning can make undead battles much less dangerous.
- A Cleric with the Good Domain is the best against the evil creatures that will make up most of the opposition. This also is the only way to create holy weapons, again very useful against evil creatures.
- Liberal use of Item Creation feats allow you to prepare for any eventuality: having a scroll of remove paralysis can save your butt if you're surprised by ghouls.
- A Fighter/Rogue with 4 Rogue levels taken at the right time is barely less effective against traps and locks than a straight Rogue and gets Weapon Specialization, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and +2d6 Sneak Attack, while losing only 1 BAB.

[Banedir]

I think Roonechr's plan has a lot of merit.

I think the best ironman team is just a good, balanced party - like both of you have. Going too defensive would be a mistake, I think.

My party will be fighter/sorcerer/cleric and a couple I've yet to finalise; either two multiclassed rogues, or a pure rogue and another character.

I chose sorcerer over wizard because although your range of magic is severely limited, if you pick a wise selection then you're much more likely to be able to use all your spells each day exactly how and when you need them. A wizard might know 10 second level spells, but it'd be a shame to die through want of an Invisibility spell because you memorised an Acid Arrow instead. I think it's mostly a question of play style, however.

I think that a good ironman team will invest in wands and potions, either made or bought.

Monks are great Ironman candidates purely on their ability to run fast. If you mess up and everyone starts dying, at least a monk has a good chance of successfully fleeing the battle and carrying on the quest with new companions! The good saving throws don't hurt, either. I probably will not take a monk for my first team (they'll be chaotic in all likelihood) but if I lose, I'll make a lawful team with a paladin and a monk in it.

[smoret]

I think the ideal ironman party is going to end up going back to the inn several time for fresh meat if you know what I mean.

[Demifool]

ive posted two different party builds on the original post your party thread, but I also have been seriously considering an all human party as well....3 fighters (frontliner w/ great sword, archer, and one with a reach weapon) and 2 clerics.

If I lose one or two (stressing the if ) I may pick up a rogue or wiz, especially for the temple itself.

[Reecoh]

If I understand ironman mode correctly, you only get to roll the dice once for each character. You may need to be a bit flexible in your class choices if you end up with lousy rolls.

Anyone know if point buy is available in ironman mode?

[drew22]

Originally posted by smoret
I think the ideal ironman party is going to end up going back to the inn several time for fresh meat if you know what I mean.

Steve,

Can we replace fallen party members with new characters (we roll) at the inn or are you referring to gathering NPC's?

[Sheriff05]

Originally posted by Reecoh
If I understand ironman mode correctly, you only get to roll the dice once for each character. You may need to be a bit flexible in your class choices if you end up with lousy rolls.

Anyone know if point buy is available in ironman mode?

IIRC the uberfaq listed Ironman was 4D6 No reroll, I agree I'd rather take the 25 point buy for Iron Man

[seanly]

of course, you could cheeze Ironman by adding/deleting characters until you get the stats you want. I think it'd be cool though to have a party with 3 guys with decent stats, one with okay stats & one doofus with lousy stats. With 4d6 drop lowest, I think most stats would be equal or better to 25 point buy.

And if my doofus dies & I can't afford to ressurrect him (see my post about that), then I'll replace him (or her or it).

[Thalin]

I've always formed parties that have least one character on each opposite extremes... Like one pure hardcore fighter and one high level mage... then for the other four members, have a blend of each spectrum: paladin , ranger/barbarian,cleric/fighter, rogue/wizard...

[Xvim]

Ok, as of right now I am planing a Lawful Evil party consisting of:


A Cleric (will be taking quite a few melee feats like cleave etc.)


A Fighter or two (I might dual class one of the fighters as a rogue)


A Sorc or a Wiz (However I might decide to forgo a spell caster all together and get a rogue)



And thats it, Ofcourse I might decided after being overwhelmed a few times to actually go with a full party of 5,in which case I would probably just stick a couple more fighters or barbarians in there. As of right now I'm thinking about just using henchmen as extra meatshields.

[Minstrel]

I think my ideal party will be 5 characters and three henchman. Not sure on the alignment yet but I want to have the following:

3 fighters OR 2 fighters and a Ranger - this will help form a front wall in the first rank. If I go with the ranger he/she would be more for missile attacks and would probably stay in the 2nd rank of the marching order.

2 clerics - one of them would be more of a cleric/fighter ie alot of hit points and would probably be up front with the two fighters (on one of the flanks) to form a front wall.

1 rogue - for finding traps, picking locks, secondary missile support, scouting, etc...

2 wizards - either one single class wizard and a multi class one or two single class.

Minstrel

Well Ironman means less points (probably) to spend on stats, so I think I'd stick to the classes that are basic, but get the job done. Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard, and probably another cleric, maybe a paladin, depending on how bad I roll for the fighter's strength ...

[roonechr]

Ironman Tip #43: Fighters and Barbarians have one great weakness - Will saves. One dominate and not only are they out of the fight on your side, they're now in it on the other side.
"Aw, by the nine hells, Rugar is trying to kill us again."

Originally posted by smoret
I think the ideal ironman party is going to end up going back to the inn several time for fresh meat if you know what I mean.

LOL.

Wouldn't you start to get a reputation if you left with 2 henchmen, came back with none, rinse, repeat...that no one would hire on with the "suicide adventurers"?

[roonechr]

Ironman Tip #102: If your Mage is seriously threatened by melee opponents a wand of invisibility can be a lifesaver. Since wands are spell trigger items they do not draw attacks of opportunity, so you can turn invisible and then immediately move away.

[Monte Carlo]

I think for some Ironman will be OK.

For example, let us for a moment consider a sucky set of scores which I will just roll on my dice roll generator....3d6 hardcore:

STR 12
DEX 8
CON 14
INT 8
WIS11
CHA 9

There you go. 62 points. Unweighted. It's not actually that bad, is it?

Let's make a bog-standard D&D meat-shield fighter of the type a ToEE Ironman party will probably need, using these stats. 12 STR, well at least he gets a +1 to his BAB and by 8th level he can increase it to 14. He gets +2 HP/level. A paltry -1 to skill points he probably won't need and no penalty to Will saves. The 8 DEX is a bit of a bummer, but make sure he's a heavy armour + shield guy and you can live with that, and cast Cat's Grace on the sucka for big battles.

Now, I'm sure it'll be hellish difficult to finish on Ironman. But I think that will be more to do with the savegame system more than stats.

Cheers
MC

Rather than those stats, and rolling in general (considering its 1 roll only), you'd be much better off with point buy.
My planned human fighter is running with:
S 14
D 13
C 14
I 14
W 10
C 8

much more survivable, and an important note- access to feats right off the bat. The only stat based chain you'll be able to start is power attack- at 4th level. Thats very, very bad for a fighter, where as mine will have (at 4th level):
weapon focus, weapon specialization, power attack, cleave, expertise, and improved disarm.
Being able to add extra damage (and a possible extra attack) and improve AC with greatly increase the survivability, above and beyond stats.

[Jonathan E.]

Hey Kvossler, I think disarm is not in the game. I saw it mentioned in an interview or the FAQ. I specifically remember the dev saying they couldn't have disarm because they would have to have two animations for all the monsters that use weapons: an animation for with a weapon and one in case they got disarmed. Too much work. On the bright side, I think this means that monsters will not disarm party members. But tripping seems to play an important part of the game, so you can get improved trip instead of disarm. Because you add your strength modifier to trip I think trip will be good for high str fighters.

-Jon E.

[roonechr]

If Ironman allows point buy that's definitely the way to go. Even if 4d6 gives you more "points" on average, being able to tweak the stats to accomplish goals - like feat acquisition - is more valuable IMO.

iirc ironman does *not* allow point buy.

Originally posted by Jonathan E.
Hey Kvossler, I think disarm is not in the game. I saw it mentioned in an interview or the FAQ. I specifically remember the dev saying they couldn't have disarm because they would have to have two animations for all the monsters that use weapons: an animation for with a weapon and one in case they got disarmed. Too much work. On the bright side, I think this means that monsters will not disarm party members. But tripping seems to play an important part of the game, so you can get improved trip instead of disarm. Because you add your strength modifier to trip I think trip will be good for high str fighters.

-Jon E.

Ah.
I was going to take trip at 6th level. Oh well. Frees up a feat slot. Sniff.

Telastyn - What?!?

Originally posted by kvossler
Ah.
I was going to take trip at 6th level. Oh well. Frees up a feat slot. Sniff.

Telastyn - What?!?

To the best of my knowledge, Ironman allows character generation via 1 iteration of "4d6 drop low and then place rolls into stats" only. Just like PnP with an anal DM. Though I might be wrong. Let me see if I can find a quote.

[Monte Carlo]

OK, from an online random dice generator programme, here are five sets of stats. 3d6 hardcore, presented the way they were rolled in D&D stat order.

Totally genuine.

How would you make your Ironman party from these?

Character 1
STR 14 DEX 11 CON 15 INT 13 WIS 6 CHA 10

Character 2
STR 14 DEX 13 CON 8 INT 9 WIS 6 CHA 10

Character 3
STR 8 DEX 6 CON 11 INT 7 WIS 10 CHA 10
(the first gen-u-ine gimp...virtually unplayable and a proper challenge)

Character 4
STR 7 DEX 8 CON 9 INT 6 WIS 8 CHA 14
(Huzzah! Gimpumundo!)

Character 5
STR 10 DEX 11 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 14

---

Now, I'll be brutally honest. I'd kill characters 3 & 4 and recruit NPCs. But that wouldn't be Ironman-like, would it?

Seriously, make playable characters out of those two. Hmmmm

Character 3 could be a dwarf (+2 CON -2 CHA) and be the world's worst fighter. Character 4 could be a sorcerer. Albeit a soon-to-be-dead-one.

I'd make number 5 a half-orc fighter, give him 12 STR and take the hit to INT & CHA.

Cheers
MC

[roonechr]

Ironman Tip #4: Opponents who haven't acted in a battle yet are flat-footed and subject to sneak attacks. Make sure your Rogue has a high Initiative to take advantage of this.

Originally posted by Monte Carlo
How would you make your Ironman party from these?

Character 1
STR 14 DEX 11 CON 15 INT 13 WIS 6 CHA 10

Character 2
STR 14 DEX 13 CON 8 INT 9 WIS 6 CHA 10

Character 3
STR 8 DEX 6 CON 11 INT 7 WIS 10 CHA 10
(the first gen-u-ine gimp...virtually unplayable and a proper challenge)

Character 4
STR 7 DEX 8 CON 9 INT 6 WIS 8 CHA 14
(Huzzah! Gimpumundo!)

Character 5
STR 10 DEX 11 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 14

---

Let's see, since you can re-arrange stats:

Char 1:
Half-Orc Fighter
15 str [+2]
13 dex
14 con
11 int [-2]
10 wis
6 cha [-2]

Char 2:
Half-Orc Fighter
14 str [+2]
10 dex
13 con
9 int [-2]
6 wis
8 cha [-2]

Char 3:
Dwarf Barbarian
11 str
10 dex
10 con [+2]
8 int
6 wis
7 cha [-2]

Char 4:
Elf Sorcerer
6 str
8 dex [+2]
9 con [-2]
8 int
7 wis
14 cha

Char 5:
Halfling rogue/barbarian
14 str [-2]
14 dex [+2]
11 con
12 int
10 wis
10 cha


The general idea being that this party should be beefy enough to survive a few levels where you can then be more cautious in your approach. I'd fully expect that you'd need to replace the sorcerer, 1-2 of the fighters before 3rd level. Also you'd be on the lookout for any NPC cleric you can find.

[edit: without reading beyond the stats, apparently we came to the same conclusions]

wands and potions were mentioned early, and I agree.

Has anyone worked out which is more cost effective though?
A 50 charge item or a horde of 1 shots.

Though admittedly that fact that anyone can gulp potions helps a lot- if the two people that can use the wand of cure serious wounds go down, you're pretty much up the creek.

[ellonaias]

I don't know how "ideal" it will turn out to be, but I think my first iron man party will consist of:

Hjelscra Daum
F Half-Orc Barbarian

Ragnar Bloodrock
M Dwarf Fighter/Thief

Isanna Aldrannor
F Elf Ranger

Elyrra Gembright
F Halfling Cleric

Siara Darkmoon
F Elf Sorceress

I might consider making Ragnar a Fighter/Cleric instead and then replacing Isanna with a halfling ranger/rogue and replacing Elyrra with a half-elven druid.

Also Hjelscra may pick up a level or two of druid if healing becomes a problem.

Party Alignment: Chaotic Good

[Lachoon]

Originally posted by Telastyn
To the best of my knowledge, Ironman allows character generation via 1 iteration of "4d6 drop low and then place rolls into stats" only. Just like PnP with an anal DM. Though I might be wrong. Let me see if I can find a quote.

You're not wrong. No point buy in Ironman.