Ideal Ironman Party?

[ellonaias]

Originally posted by Monte Carlo
...five sets of stats. 3d6 hardcore, presented the way they were rolled in D&D stat order.

...

Character 1
STR 14 DEX 11 CON 15 INT 13 WIS 6 CHA 10

Character 2
STR 14 DEX 13 CON 8 INT 9 WIS 6 CHA 10

Character 3
STR 8 DEX 6 CON 11 INT 7 WIS 10 CHA 10
(the first gen-u-ine gimp...virtually unplayable and a proper challenge)

Character 4
STR 7 DEX 8 CON 9 INT 6 WIS 8 CHA 14
(Huzzah! Gimpumundo!)

Character 5
STR 10 DEX 11 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 14



Cheers
MC

First, the "4d6, lose the lowest" method means that you are somewhat less likely to get gimps than your 3d6 hardcore method. Second, as was mentioned, you don't have to roll in order

Anyway, even with your 3d6 rolls, here is an interesting and viable party:

#1: Halfling Ranger/Rogue
Str: 11 (13-2)
Dex: 17 (15+2)
Con: 10
Wis: 11
Int: 14
Cha: 6

#2: Human Cleric
Str: 9
Dex: 6
Con: 10
Wis: 14
Int: 8
Cha: 13

#3: Human Fighter
Str: 11
Dex: 8
Con: 10
Wis: 10
Int: 7
Cha: 6

#4: Dwarf Wizard
Str: 7
Dex: 8
Con: 10 (8+2)
Wis: 9
Int: 14
Cha: 4 (6-2)

#5: Dwarf Barbarian
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 13 (11+2)
Wis: 12
Int: 10
Cha: 8 (10-2)

Low charisma party, but the cleric and ranger/rogue can do the talking. Not too shabby in my opinion, though not great either. 4d6 method should help just enough to make it fly.

edit: of course, this does at least demonstrate that planning the party in advance is probably futile. But look at how limiting yourself to one roll forces you to get creative with the character concept! A dwarf wizard?!

[Xma]

Originally posted by Sheriff05
IIRC the uberfaq listed Ironman was 4D6 No reroll, I agree I'd rather take the 25 point buy for Iron Man

Actually the mean of a 4D6 discard lowest is 12.2446

So for 6 attributes you end up with about 73.5 stat points.

I dunno if in point buy system, stats starts at 8 or 9 before spending the 25 points...

6*8=48
48+25=73

6*9=54
54+25=79

So point buy seems to be the way to go...

[ellonaias]

[quote]Originally posted by Xma
Actually the mean of a 4D6 discard lowest is 12.2446

So for 6 attributes you end up with about 73.5 stat points.

I dunno if in point buy system, stats starts at 8 or 9 before spending the 25 points...

6*8=48
48+25=73

6*9=54
54+25=79

So point buy seems to be the way to go... [/QUOTE

Points start at 8, but you are not factoring the weighted system. those 25 points are not necessarily worth 25 _actual_ points. And anyway, you can't use point buy in ironman, so it isn't really an option for these purposes.

[smoret]

Originally posted by drew22
Steve,

Can we replace fallen party members with new characters (we roll) at the inn or are you referring to gathering NPC's?

You can roll new ones up at the inn, and if you're playing ironman I applaud you if you never have to do that.

And yes, to answer someone elses question, there is no point buy in Ironman.

[Xma]

Originally posted by ellonaias

Points start at 8, but you are not factoring the weighted system. those 25 points are not necessarily worth 25 _actual_ points. And anyway, you can't use point buy in ironman, so it isn't really an option for these purposes.

Uh weighted system...remember that now...plz forgive a 2d edition veteran

Well, let's have some randomization in our characters, more variety that way

[roonechr]

Has anyone worked out which is more cost effective though?

If you're going to use it 50 times, wands are by far more cost effective:

Potion = Spell level x Caster Level x 50/1 use = 50 gp per use
Wand = Spell level x Caster Level x 750/50 uses =15 gp per use

Potions have the advantage that anyone can use them, while a wand can only be used by a class that has the spell on its class list.

[ellonaias]

i wasn't too happy with the tone of my post. sorry if it came off haughty. there really is nothing to forgive. just being brief because i am also watching my 3 month old daughter.

[Xma]

Originally posted by ellonaias
i wasn't too happy with the tone of my post. sorry if it came off haughty. there really is nothing to forgive. just being brief because i am also watching my 3 month old daughter.

Absolutely nothing wrong with your tone, no offense taken

Gratz for the daughter btw

[suibhne]

I presume that Ironman follows the standard PnP convention of rolling - 4d6 drop the lowest, but a total reroll if all scores are under 13 or the total modifer is below -2. Or something like that - I'm rusty.

I swore I just read that again today, but now I can't find it. In any case: if these rules are in, the two lowest sets of rolls posted by Monte Carlo wouldn't make the cut.

Originally posted by smoret
You can roll new ones up at the inn, and if you're playing ironman I applaud you if you never have to do that.

And yes, to answer someone elses question, there is no point buy in Ironman.

*whimper*

Originally posted by suibhne
I presume that Ironman follows the standard PnP convention of rolling - 4d6 drop the lowest, but a total reroll if all scores are under 13 or the total modifer is below -2. Or something like that - I'm rusty.

I swore I just read that again today, but now I can't find it. In any case: if these rules are in, the two lowest sets of rolls posted by Monte Carlo wouldn't make the cut.

You're close... here's the actual ToEE rule for rerolling:

The first part of character generation is assigning ability scores to the character abilities. By clicking on the ROLL button, six numbers will be generated by rolling four six-sided dice and eliminating the lowest single die roll. Additionally, socres with ability bonuses that total less than 0 or scores with no number greater than 13 will automatically be rerolled. If you are still unhappy with the outcome, the option is available to reroll as many times as you would like.

[drew22]

Here's is what I got using 4d6 drop lowest:

12, 9, 16, 14, 7, 13

16, 9, 11, 10, 9, 14

9, 11, 11, 15, 11, 15

14, 16, 8, 10, 13, 15

13, 15, 11, 15, 15, 9

I would have no problems creating a nice party with these rolls.

[Lathan]

Hmmm...

My first group will be the usual NG based group.

If I understand the Party Alignment concept properly, that means I'll be starting with:

Human Fighter
Human Cleric of St. Cuthbert (group leader)
Dwarven Rogue (dual to Fighter at L2)
Elven Wizard
Human Bard (group spokesman & backup leader)

Naturally, this being IronMan, they will die....

I will replace as necessary with:

Human Paladin
Elven Ranger (dual to Druid at L2)
Halfling Rogue
Human Cleric (of Pelor)
Human Sorceror
Half-Orc Barbarian (dual to Fighter at L2)

Also, although this does not have anything to do with party composition, I'll also be making adventure chronicles, from the point of view of the Bard (or his replacement, eventually...).

I've played ToEE twice and DMed it seven times since it was published in 1985 - I think its only appropriate that IronMan be used.

For my 1st attempt at Ironman, I'm gonna go realllllllly basic

2 fighters
1 cleric
1 rogue
1 wizard.

Haven't decided races or alignments yet. That'll wait until I'm actually making the characters.

Yeah, I think with the 4d6 drop the lowest and stuck with it, I'll probably go with a more basic group, though, if possible the standard Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard/Sorceror. I'd like to get in a Paladin and a Ranger, I don't know if it will happen.


Does anyone know if we get to pick class after we generate our ability scores in the character generation?

[Xma]

Originally posted by Bogie
Does anyone know if we get to pick class after we generate our ability scores in the character generation?

Yes.

[Demifool]

Bogie just check out some of the generation screenshots on one of the ToEE websites, such as this one :

http://www.rpgplanet.com/greyhawk/creation4.html

[Euangelion]

Originally posted by Monte Carlo
OK, from an online random dice generator programme, here are five sets of stats. 3d6 hardcore, presented the way they were rolled in D&D stat order.

Totally genuine.

How would you make your Ironman party from these?

Character 1
STR 14 DEX 11 CON 15 INT 13 WIS 6 CHA 10

Character 2
STR 14 DEX 13 CON 8 INT 9 WIS 6 CHA 10

Character 3
STR 8 DEX 6 CON 11 INT 7 WIS 10 CHA 10
(the first gen-u-ine gimp...virtually unplayable and a proper challenge)

Character 4
STR 7 DEX 8 CON 9 INT 6 WIS 8 CHA 14
(Huzzah! Gimpumundo!)

Character 5
STR 10 DEX 11 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 14

I have a question about some of these rolls. For example, #2 has bonuses that total less than 0, it looks like -1. According to the 3.5 rules for rolling, these stats would be discarded. Is this true in Ironman mode, or could you be "stuck" with a 6, 4, 9, 10, 4, 7 set of stats? In other words, completely no rerolls in Ironman, no matter how terrible they are? If so, sounds like a complete hoot, just making up names for those losers gets me laughing.

[ellonaias]

Hey! I though I did a good job of making these guys viable! Well, sort of...

But in answer to your question, it has been mentioned that they use the "total of bonuses cannot be negative" and "must have at least one roll over 14" rules, although I guess no one has officially said that it is in for ironman as well.

Euangelion.. I believe that system will reroll things for you automatically if it violates the rules you mentioned. You don't have to do this yourself and press the reroll button. This is also true in Ironman.

[Chris Woods]

Ok, some statistics for those who might care:

4d6 drop the lowest gives the following distrubution, represented as the percentage probability that the value rolled results. (ie - 20% means a 1 in 5 chance)

I used leading dashes where appropriate because a lot of webboards trim more then one space to just one space, and I wanted this table to be as readable as possible. There are no negative results.


P(18) = -1.62%
P(17) = -4.17%
P(16) = -7.25%
P(15) = 10.12%
P(14) = 12.33%
P(13) = 13.29%
P(12) = 12.86%
P(11) = 11.45%
P(10) = -9.38%
P( 9) = -7.05%
P( 8) = -4.76%
P( 7) = -2.95%
P( 6) = -1.61%
P( 5) = --.78%
P( 4) = --.31%
P( 3) = --.08%


Now, this isn't necessarilly what we'd like to use as the AD&D system reverts these all to +'s. A more useful table might read:


P(+4) = -1.62% | --1.62%
P(+3) = 11.42% | -13.04%
P(+2) = 22.45% | -35.49%
P(+1) = 26.15% | -61.64%
P( 0) = 20.83% | -82.47%
P(-1) = 11.81% | -94.28%
P(-2) = -4.56% | -98.84%
P(-3) = -1.09% | -99.93%
P(-4) = --.08% | 100.01%

(Cumulative values listed second. 100.01% due to rounding.)

Now, this is better, but we're intrested in making a character out of six rolls, so the best way to think is in those terms.

Let the notation:

P(+a, +b, +c, +d, +e, +f)

mean the probabililty of those six results occurring. Furthermore, let a XX for any value of a, b, c, d, e, or f mean we don't care what that roll is. So,

P(+4, +3, +2, +2, XX, XX)

means the probability of getting a +4, a +3, two +2's and any other 2 rolls. Finally, let >X mean getting a value of at least X, so

P(>2, >2, >2, >2, XX, XX)

means the probability of getting four +2's or better, and two other whatevers.

Now, a list of desirable/useful results would be:

Get an 18:
P(+4, XX, XX, XX, XX, XX) = 9.33%

A very solid roll:
P(>3, >2, >2, >1, XX, XX) = 24.60%

A pretty solid roll:
P(>3, >2, >2, XX, XX, XX) = 28.41%

Weighted on two stats:
P(>3, >3, XX, XX, XX, XX) = 17.88%

Weakly weighted on two stats:
P(>3, >2, XX, XX, XX, XX) = 48.04%

Very weakly weighted on two stats:
P(>3, >1, XX, XX, XX, XX) = 56.11%

Passable:
P(>2, >2, XX, XX, XX, XX) = 68.99%

No "bad" stats:
P(>0, >0, >0, >0, >0, >0) = 31.47%


Shows some important information there. Specifically, one out of every two partys will have an unmodified 18 and two thirds of all characters will have a negative value.

Finally, my personal opinion as to the numbers to get a "good" character of the main classes.


Fighter: +3 Str, +2 Con, +1 Dex
P(>3, >2, >1, XX, XX, XX) = 45.53%

Cleric: +3 Wis, +1 Str, +1 Con, +1 Dex
P(>3, >1, >1, >1, XX, XX) = 38.00%

Thief: +3 Int, +2 Dex, +2 Chr, +0 Con, +0 Str
P(>3, >2, >2, >0, >0, XX) = 24.58%

Wizard: +3 Int, +1 Con, +1 Dex
P(>3, >1, >1, XX, XX, XX) = 51.40%

Sorcerer: +3 Chr, +1 Int, +1 Con, +1 Dex
P(>3, >1, >1, >1, XX, XX) = 37.97%

Paladin: +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Chr, +1 Wis, +1 Dex
P(>2, >2, >2, >1, >1, XX) = 17.36%

Das Uber-Character:
P(+4, >3, >2, >2, XX, XX) = 01.63%

Statistical Average:
P(>3, >1, >1, >0, XX, XX) = 50.00%

So, this means with a little flexability (don't chose the characters class until *after* the dice get rolled) you can expect a party of 5 to support any combination not exceeding:

2 or 3 Fighters
2 Clerics
1 Thief
2 or 3 Wizards
2 Sorcerers
1 Paladin

We deal with a lot of random effects (a total of 24 Uniform distrubutions) so you should expect little deviation from above.

Note all tallys do not consider racial choice. These are the +'s probability before you chose to be a Half-Orc.

Don't ask me what possessed me to do this. I came here hoping the demo would be out. Now I'm hoping it's out when I'm done with this book of a message.

Chris Woods

[Demifool]

Its like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in your brain.

[Xma]

Nice post Chris... much more detailed than me giving the mean result... hey I'm lazy

My ideal Ironman party is formed by all roguish-like characters. Of course some of them multiclassing with a spellcaster or a tank, but still all sneaky: I think being cautious and avoiding most of combats increases a lot the chances of survival.

[Banedir]

Wow Chris, that's awesome info, thanks for taking the time to post it!

[Lathan]

Originally posted by Chris Woods

Ok, some statistics for those who might care:

...

Don't ask me what possessed me to do this. I came here hoping the demo would be out. Now I'm hoping it's out when I'm done with this book of a message.

My head hurts.

Brings back that 1st year stats class....

[daedalusaf]

hi...

i was just reading your posts, and suffice to say i got confused with all the numbers
how do you distribute the numbers, anyways? can you give a character example with step by step implementations of the numbers? it'll really help out d&d noobs like me
if it's not too difficult, of course...

Thanks Chris. A very nice presentation there...

In my non-Ironman game, I'll probably settle for this kind of roll:

P(>3, >2, >2, >1, XX, XX)

By the average, it should only take me around 4 rerolls to get this set based on your calculations.

[ellonaias]

Originally posted by daedalusaf
hi...

i was just reading your posts, and suffice to say i got confused with all the numbers
how do you distribute the numbers, anyways? can you give a character example with step by step implementations of the numbers? it'll really help out d&d noobs like me
if it's not too difficult, of course...

I'm not quite sure this is what you are asking, but as I understand your question....

Each character gets rated in 6 attributes: strength, dexterity, constitution, wisdom, intelligence and charisma. For starting characters, those attributes are rated anywhere from 1-20, depending on (1) a roll of the dice and (2) any species modifiers. In ironman mode (and optionally in regular mode), the value of each roll is determined by rolling 4 dice and adding the three highest dice together. Of course in ToEE the computer generates the number for you. Anway you have six numbers generated in this way, and then assign them to the attributes you want. Pretty simple.

oh yeah, in regular mode the other option is to have each attribute start at 8 and then allocate a pool of 25 points as you see fit.

If you were actually asking about those percentages someone posted.... well, that kind of stuff makes me sleepy. Basically they figured out the probability of rolling different numbers and stuff.

[daedalusaf]

ellonaias: this is exactly what i was asking for...thanks...very much appreciated...

edit:
oh...and 1 more thing...
do the numbers we roll up have to be in the order for the abilities? (considering that we roll them ourselves). i.e the 1st number for strength, 2nd for dex and so on? or can we assign the best numbers to each stat we want?