Chat Log with Troika Developers

[nomad_Wanderer]

In sections..
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<Spazmo> Give us the heads up when you're ready for the interroga--questions, Troika people.
<[troika]_> testing
<[Troika]Steve> I'm ready, I think everybody else is here too.
<Spazmo> Okay then
<Spazmo> <chrisbeddoes> I want to ask if they are going to release an unsupported and undocumented version of their developer tools later.
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<Exitium> Please remember to say "Done" when you have finished answering the questions.
<[Troika]Steve> I do not believe there are any plans to release our tools at this time, they aren't any fun to use anyway, at least thats what the artists say.
<TimCain> Hmm. Probably not. You need more than just WorldEd
<ReAnimator> true
<TimCain> Our maps are rendered in huge scale.
<[troika]hnguyen> i say that too :P
<[Troika]Steve> See, even a programmer who wrote some of the tools (Huy) thinks they are cumbersome.
<TimCain> And you'd need some other professional software too
* TimCain says "Done"
<Ausir> you don't know modders' determination
<Exitium> <kquat3> To cain: Since FO3 is often hinted to be in devolpment, what are your feelings about possible having to toe to toe with it, as well as your feelingsabout seeing it continued.
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<TimCain> I have always looked forward to playing FO3 as a fan, knowing nothing about its plot or characters
<TimCain> I don't think I will ever really go head to head with it, since release dates are so woggy
<TimCain> I do want to see more done in that universe, if it's done well
* TimCain says "Done"
<Ausir> <chadeo> The dialog seems to be rather generic in many places, only seeming to cater to the classic "I am here to help" adventurer. I had theimpression that your choice of alignment would have more of an affect on yourinteraction with the various npcs. Is this "good" dialog the result of pressure toremove the M rating from the game, or just due to a lack of time to implementdetailed dialog trees.
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<TimCain> I think most of the dialog in Hommlet checks dialog skills, but a lot in the Temple checks alignment
<[Troika]Tom> Some of the M-rated dialogs were definitely removed
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<TimCain> But those characters often attack first
<TimCain> Yes, we lost a number of dialogs in Nulb by going from M to T

[nomad_Wanderer]

<TimCain> Yes, we lost a number of dialogs in Nulb by going from M to T
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<TimCain> There is definitely evil only dialog in the game in the temple, but I havent heard anyone reaching it
* TimCain says "Done"
<Spazmo> <Arcana> QUESTION: how many of the "popular" bugs do you think are related to people not understanding the 3.5 skills rules
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<[Troika]Steve> Its hard to put a number, and its even harder to say what is and isn't a bug. Sometimes we made conscious decisions to change things. I think somepeople may feel frustrated in not knowing how something works, I'm not sure if this is the fault of complication or weak help or a large manual.
<[Troika]Steve> Then there are of course the bugs that are just that bugs.
<ReAnimator> I think firing into melee and cover penalties on ranged attacks is commonly overlooked
<Saint_Proverbius> Send all the questions to me. /msg Saint_Proverbius <question>
<[Troika]Steve> In testing there were a lot of problems with people who felt something was wrong and didn't bother to identify that they were missing because they were non proficient or firing into melee or whatever.
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<TimCain> It is frustrating to see someone upset over skeletons because they don't know about DR or because they didn't know they could bind hotkeys
<[Troika]Steve> But our goal was to make a 3.5 game that was still fun to the novice to play so in those cases where bugs weren't bugs but misunderstandings we get a little dissapointed at what people may have missed out on.
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<[Troika]Steve> (I'm done)
* TimCain says "Done"
<[troika]hnguyen> frustrating for everyone i'm sure... btw, you can right-click drag the radial menu to move it, once it's open, i know that is a source of frustration
<Exitium> <Arcana> Question: If there is to be a patch...when can we expect an acknowledgement of what will and wont' be fixed/changed
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<TimCain> We are planning for a patch that will not invalidate save games - rule #1
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<[Troika]Steve> I know locally at Troika we've made changes to the codebase and fixed bugs, there was infact a build made after the gold build that Atari chose not to go with, and we continue to work on things when we have time.
<[Troika]Tom> I hope we can make an official (or unofficial) announcement by next week
<[troika]hnguyen> as i've written earlier on the forums, everyone who is helping to report bugs and link savegames really helps A LOT!
<TimCain> Atari has not told us whether or not they want to pay for a patch, so we will have to see what we can do on our own time
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* TimCain says "Done"
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<Ausir> <Ausir> why are the asian hats called "asian hats"? there's no Asia on Oerth :P. also, people saying "+1 sword" in dialogue is not good...
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<[troika]hnguyen> dolly dress up fun, of course!
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<TimCain> The asian hats were thrown in for fun, but you are right. I should have changed the name
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<[Troika]Steve> Craig, you modeled the "asian hat"? I think it went in and nobody ever renamed it.
<ReAnimator> I only used that name for a description at the time
<[troika]hnguyen> we could have been PC and named it oriental hat i suppose?
<[troika]hnguyen>
<TimCain> As for saying +1 sword, well, weak magical sword seemed undetailed
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* TimCain says "Done"

[nomad_Wanderer]

* TimCain says "Done"
<Exitium> <Ares> At a later point will the M rated amterial be put in as an "unofficial" patch? Done.
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<TimCain> Atari still approves the patches and demos. So no.
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<[Troika]Steve> I really don't think so. If at all, which I really doubt, it would have to be done in an official capacity.
<TimCain> I do have a Quotes File, like in Arcanum and Fallout. I plan to post it on Troika's webpage
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* TimCain says "Done"
<[Troika]Tom> We may have to do an unofficial patch to fix some bugs, but we probably can't add this content back in
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<Ausir> <bheathrow> QUESTION: Has "Against the Giants" been greenlighted, and has there been any (joking or non-joking) remarks about a release of "Beyond the Barrier Peaks" D&D/Sci-Fi module?
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<TimCain> Nope, AtG has not been greenlighted.
<[Troika]Tom> No green light here
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<[Troika]Steve> I think the official answer is we have no further news regarding another project at this time. As soon as we have information we can give out we will.
<TimCain> Nothing on BtBP or ToH either.
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* TimCain says "Done"
<Spazmo> <Ghetto_Goose> Can you tell us anything about the Post-Apocolyptic looking pictures Chris Glenn did? Will we be seeing another TC Made Post-Apocgame? Anything else you can reveal?
<TimCain> I can say they look GREAT!
<[Troika]Steve> Glenn is an excellent artist, I thought it was rather awsome myself.
<TimCain> Other than that...I can
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<TimCain> 't sya anything
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* TimCain says "Done"
<Exitium> <MetalWyrm> did Atari make you publish ToEE too soon, thus leaving some of the more apparent bugs?
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<[Troika]Steve> Those aren't really decisions that developers get to make. It is often the job of the publisher to decide when they feel a product is ready.
<TimCain> Well, look, they are OUR bugs. But yes, I wish we had had more QA time. I always do.
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<[Troika]Tom> Yeah...our contract ran out with them and they didn't want to pay us further, so our money ran out...but I think we all would have liked another month on it
* TimCain says "Done"
<[Troika]Steve> I also think the game could have benefited from additional testing, again, these aren't always the decisions of the developers.
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<Ausir> <soylent> I noticed there wasn't any credit given to the voice actors in either the manual or in-game credits. Were professionals hired and who was incharge of that? You guys or Atari?
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[nomad_Wanderer]

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<[Troika]Steve> Tom did all the voice work himself in his basement... j/k he actually handled most of it and can answer most this question.
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<[Troika]Tom> Professionals handled this, but the director I chose went non-Union against my request...
<[Troika]Tom> So we could not put their names in the credits
<[Troika]Steve> We wanted the rock to do our voices.
<[Troika]Steve> And Vin Deisil.
* TimCain says "Done"
<[Troika]Steve> He plays D&D.
<Spazmo> <soylent> Do you plan to make provisions for choosing a character's skin color in any future patch?
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<ReAnimator> not at this time
<[Troika]Steve> Nope, texture recoloring was a limitation that crept into the engine early on and we decided to avoid it. The hair itself is hanlded by 8 different colored textures on the models. With severe rewriting we can change it but it most likely would not be for a patch.
* [Troika]Steve says "Done too."
<Exitium> <soylent> Why do things like boots and gloves slow down your player but not add any AC? Was that a design decision or a bug?
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<[troika]hnguyen> a tasty bug!
<[Troika]Steve> Thats most likely a bug, there are a variety of items that went in as complements to heavy armors that somehow inherited their weight reducing problems.
<[Troika]Steve> Chain gloves I think do this, Huy may know more items off the top of his head.
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<TimCain> They don't add AC in D&D 3.5. That's not a bug.
<[Troika]Steve> Yeah, and what Tim said too. They are mostly cosmetic. Otherwise your feet look barefoot and silly.
* TimCain says "Done"
<[Troika]Steve> There reason the slots exist are for magic boots/gloves, but regular ones help dolly dressup.
<ReAnimator> well we could have built the boots and gloves into the armors
* TimCain says "Done, really"
<Ausir> <HA|Riparian> I like the Fog of War/ visibility in the dungeons, however when it's above ground, is that ring of darkness a D&D 3.5 effect or is itsomething to make the game run better on slower machines? And is there a wayto turn off the ring of solid black?
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<[Troika]Steve> We had considered turning off fogging in towns but different factions of the team did or didn't like them for various reasons. I think the only maps that are unfogged are the random encounter maps.
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[nomad_Wanderer]

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<[Troika]Steve> You can however turn down the number of fog checks per frame.
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<[Troika]Steve> Dropping it to 1 should improve performance a lot.
<TimCain> Fogging looks best at 800x600
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* TimCain says "Done"
<ReAnimator> my vote was for no fog in outdoor safe areas
<Exitium> <Mearas> Besides removing the kids, has the game been altered in any other signigicant way as a result of switching ratings?
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<TimCain> Yes. Several dialogs and quests were removed entirely, as were some characters.
<[troika]hnguyen> your vote means NOTHING reanimator!!! *RAWR*
<[Troika]Tom> One whole map with side quests, the brothel in Nulb, was removed
<ReAnimator> ouch!
<TimCain> Plus, Tom said some bad words in a few dialogs...
<TimCain>
<[troika]hnguyen>
<[Troika]Steve> Code was generally untouched for the censors, so I had smooth sailing.
<[troika]hnguyen> i wish the bad words were still in
<TimCain> Also, you will notice that Dick Rentsch is now just Rentsch
<[Troika]Tom> Tim used a bad word once, too!
<TimCain> I did?
<ReAnimator> I had to cover up some private areas on some models

[nomad_Wanderer]

<[Troika]Steve> Because Richard is such a horrible name to name someone.
<[troika]hnguyen> LOL
* TimCain says "Done"
<Spazmo> <Human_Shield> Personal question: Do you guys read manuals (even large ones) before playing?
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<ReAnimator> line by line
<[Troika]Steve> I love reading manuals in the car on the ride home from the game store.
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<TimCain> I always read manuals. But I am quirky.
<[Troika]Steve> I then usually pick them up again after I play once or twice.
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<TimCain> Spiral bindings are clues: Use this manual!
<[troika]hnguyen> i don't.
<[Troika]Tom> I don't usually read them ahead of time...but I use them as reference
<TimCain> Most games just come with instructions pamphlets, anyway...
<[Troika]Steve> The manuals I use a lot have little sticky notes in them, I think all the char creation and spells sections in my Wizardry8 manual are filled with pos****.
<[troika]hnguyen> pos****?
* TimCain says "Done"
<TimCain> neg****?
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<Ausir> <BuddyRich> Are there any magical clothing in ToEE (excluding cloaks). Ie a Mage robe or two? Also why no belts, gloves of giant strength don't sound right.also props on the bikini mystic outfit!
<ReAnimator> woo hoo
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<[troika]hnguyen> i think it was difficult to justify adding belts + belt slot just for a belt of giant strength, or something like that.
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<[troika]hnguyen> so it became gloves of giant strength

[nomad_Wanderer]

<TimCain> It all depends on what we do next.
<[Troika]Steve> Well there are some parts of it I totally hate, and some parts that I think are really great. It isn't impossible that the engine could be reused again, but I kinda want to see a new codebase one of these days.
<[Troika]Steve> Some parts of it are old and battered and abused, I certain layers just need to be put out of their misery.
<ReAnimator> new engine = good
* TimCain wrote those parts
-> *Saint_Proverbius* So what is the story with Item Details? Are they supposed to be there? I've never seen more talk about a cloak of elvenKind than in the last day or two...
* TimCain says "Done"
<Spazmo> <Whipp-0> As it seems now Identify items doesn't serve any purpose except as to learn the name and true value of items? Was that how it was meantto be?
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<[Troika]Steve> Yes, in some cases Tim Cain did write those parts
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<[troika]hnguyen> there is no flavor text for miscellaneous items, yes. that text was discussed, but did not make it in.
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<[Troika]Steve> Well it was hard coming up with a system where you could find out all the breakdowns of the rolls of an action and still have it hidden.
<[troika]hnguyen> unfortunate, of course.
<TimCain> Identify was originally suppose to reveal the true name and any conditions added to the item. So yes, a Cloak of Elvenkind would have printed +10 circumstance bonus to hide
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[nomad_Wanderer]

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<[Troika]Steve> Either we lied to you about how many points of damage you did (more d&d like) or we told you, so identify pretty much tells you specifically what the item is.
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<TimCain> We needed a system that worked on both premade and crafted items
<[troika]hnguyen> you also cannot use magic items (except for potions) unless they are identified.
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<[Troika]Steve> Huy means, Useable magic items (i.e. wands scrolls, etc).
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<[Troika]Steve> Drinking a random potion saved me in the game once.
-> *Saint_Proverbius* So how do I find out what a magic item does (for example the infamous cloak of elvenkind)
* [Troika]Steve thinks we're "Done."
<TimCain> Yeah, you can wield an unidentified sword.
<[troika]hnguyen> but that was non-alcoholic...
* TimCain says "Done"
<Ausir> <Titanium> What part of ToEE are they most proud of?
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<[troika]hnguyen> combat, i like it very much! (i am a JA2/x-com/etc fan
<TimCain> Yup. The turn-based combat.
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<TimCain> It is the core of D&D. Says so on page 1 of our design doc.
<[Troika]Steve> I'm a big fan of the hyper-help and roll history system. I think it was an great way to breakdown the complexities of D&D layer by layer. If you want detail you open up the window, you want more detail you click the link, want more detail click the breakdown of that... its fun.
<[Troika]Tom> I've had some combats that make great stories (and I've seen some posted, too)...I think that's really cool
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[nomad_Wanderer]

<[Troika]Tom> I've had some combats that make great stories (and I've seen some posted, too)...I think that's really cool
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* TimCain says "Done"
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<Exitium> <Rayt> With TOEE, the license was controlled by Atari (or was it Hasbro?), which had some effects on game decisions (like the forced T-rating). Do youhave the same problems with the Vampire game or the unannounced futureproject and is it something you'd like to avoid in the future by making games notbased on a owned license?
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<[troika]hnguyen> ...atari AND hasbro
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<TimCain> No real problems with White Wolf, if that's what you are asking. Activision has been very supportive too.
<[troika]hnguyen> and WoTC, of course.
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<[Troika]Steve> Whenever you use licensed content you have input from the licensor, and whenever you deal with a publisher you have to handle their input. Until we have the magic money to independantly fund ourselves for an entire game we wont see near the total control we'd love to have over a title.
<TimCain> This was my first licensed game. Live and learn.
<[Troika]Tom> There's always the tradeoff of getting to work on a really good license but having to live by their rules vs. doing something brand new that has no name value...
* TimCain says "Done"
<Spazmo> <snow_wolf> Is there a possibility that we will be able to use our characters from Temple of Elemental Evil in future games?
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<[Troika]Steve> If there is a sequel it is our plan and hope.
<TimCain> And dream.
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<[Troika]Steve>
* [troika]hnguyen thumbs up

[nomad_Wanderer]

* [troika]hnguyen thumbs up
* [Troika]Steve says "Done."
<Ausir> <Sony> just wanted to ask if the absence of detailed item stats/descriptions is intent. If yes, that's a pretty unusual approach Any chance this will beadded in a patch due to popular request?
* TimCain doesn't like Huy putting his thumb up there
<TimCain> It was not my intent, no.
<[Troika]Tom> I'd like to see it added for the patch
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<TimCain> If we can add it in, we will.
<[troika]hnguyen> again, no flavor text was added, which would have described the bonuses/etc for any misc items (magical or not).
<TimCain> We are already at something like 300,000 words.
* [Troika]Steve says, "Done."
<Exitium> <Greyelore> If ToEE meets with financial success does Troika plan to remake other original modules? If so which ones would you like to do...?
<TimCain> That's up to Atari.
<[Troika]Steve> I personally would love to do another module, but its not up to us.
<TimCain> I would like to the whole Queen of the Spiders supermodule GDQ
<TimCain> I do NOT want to do Tomb of Horrors.
<[troika]hnguyen> haha, tim has horror stories from that module...
<[Troika]Steve> I agree with Tim that GDQ would make a great 10-20 module right after ToEE.
* TimCain says "Done"
<Spazmo> <Tscharna> why, when married, the wife is married to the ENTIRE party (including females)?
<TimCain> Oh, that's a follower issue. Followers become party followers.
<[Troika]Steve> Hahaha, Fruella, damn is she annoying. She's also open minded, so she loves everyone.
<TimCain> Otherwise, they would leave when their leader died.
<[troika]hnguyen> it's the 90's?
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<TimCain> We think different here at Troika.
<[Troika]Tom> I like to go for two wives and um a companion...

[nomad_Wanderer]

<[Troika]Tom> I like to go for two wives and um a companion...
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<TimCain> DONE!!! PLEASE!!!!
<ReAnimator> clean it up
* TimCain says "Done"
<Spazmo> <psyronin> why did you decide to go with 3.0 version of Weapon Finesse when the 3.5 version is considered a welcome improvement?
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<TimCain> I *think* we had already tied it in by weapon.
<[Troika]Steve> In our "almost final" 3.5 changes it still was vague as which way it was going to be implemented. By the time we had realized the change the game had reached a state where significant change would be required to change it, and it wasn't something we could address in time.
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* TimCain says "Done"
<[Troika]Steve> Getting info on what 3.5 was going to be was difficult, we didn't necessarily get to hang out with all of the WotC guys as they came up with the changes.
<Ausir> <Marxin> Question: If a patch is on the horizon, will there be performance improvements? I see two major performance problems, pathfinding and mouseevents. Both seem in dire need of optimization. Note, this is from a user on a P43ghz with 1g RAM
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<[Troika]Steve> I already put in a small pathfinding speedup, but it will only speed up the generic case. There are many ways (due to the radii) that people can block all possible ways of getting places, and our biggest struggle has been trying to detect those early.
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<[Troika]Steve> If there is a patch you may see some pathfinding speedups, as for the mouse issue. its a known directx problem and there are known workarounds we can implement. They haven't been done yet, but they could be, if a patch were to be made.
* [Troika]Steve says, "Done."
<Exitium> <dwillett> Will the patch be able to fix the icon errors during combat?
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<[Troika]Steve> There is possibility.

[xenomage]

just like i said on the other thread:...more than any bug the greatest injustice about this game is that so much content was axed needlessly....
why censor freedom of speech or freedom of choice when all they needed to do was program a filter for those that dont want the 'questionable' content.....
and why is mass amounts of killing and violence acceptable in the states but some words and some innuendo (not even graphic nudity although thats pretty innocent compared to killing too) are consider unacceptable!?

[nomad_Wanderer]

hey try and keep this empty until it's over

[nomad_Wanderer]

<[Troika]Steve> There is possibility.
<[Troika]Steve> However the specifics of what the patch will fix or cover or if it will come out or when has not been discussed or decided at this time.
* [Troika]Steve says, "Done."
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<Spazmo> <JavaUser3> Whats with not being able to open / close doors / use stairs in combat?
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<[Troika]Steve> You aren't allowed to change maps during combat, that was a conscious change we made. As for doors and chests I thought you were supposed to be able to open/close doors in combat.
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<[Troika]Steve> The leaving levels was to avoid camping near transitions and jumping out of the map when things got too tough.
<TimCain> Yeah, QA people would keep someone by the stairs and just jump away if combat went badly.
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* [Troika]Steve thinks its done, ?
* TimCain says "Done"
<Ausir> <tscharna> is it possible that a third development team might be made for a future ToEE sequel with Tim making a non-D&D title?
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<TimCain> There are currently many possible future scenarios, and that is one.
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<[Troika]Tom> well said
* TimCain says "Done"
<Exitium> Okay, it looks like we're all out of questions.
<Spazmo> Well, we're done, too. No more questions.
<Exitium> So that's all, folks.
<Saint_Proverbius> Okay, that's all Troika has time to answer.
* TimCain waves
<[Troika]Steve> And... I'm spent...
<Spazmo> Thanks a bunch to Troika and to everyone who came tonight.
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<TimCain> Good night, folks.
<[Troika]Steve> Thanks for your questions!
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<ReAnimator> bye
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<[troika]hnguyen> thanks!
<Saint_Proverbius> Thanks for the time, Tim and Troika.
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<[Troika]Steve> Back to vacation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Exitium> Good night and thanks for participating.
<Ausir> Good night!
* [troika]hnguyen moons everyone
<Exitium> Enjoy yourselves.
* TimCain has quit IRC (Quit: Tim goes looking for chocolate)
<Exitium> The mod community will be active!
<Ausir> Farewell, and thanks for all the fish!
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[nomad_Wanderer]

The chat quickly decended into a bunch of idiots screaming and swearing.

Not much information sharing.

[nomad_Wanderer]

Some good information from this post.

These guys obviously weren't ready to ship this.... When the money runs out and the client says ship this or don't get paid....

They might look into a patch. Even one if they get a no go from atari.

There seems to be some excitment in the mod department.. I wonder how much can be fixed through mods?

[Gulshog]

It looks like Tim wasn't too happy with the way Atari handled the game, from his live and learn comment about using the D&D license. I bet they never use Atari again, unless it is for a sequel.

Thanks Atari...you suck.

[Volourn]

No, the bugs suck.

As Troika said in the chat; the bugs are theirs not Atari's. They just wish they had more time; but who doesn't?

[coradin]

Well the bugs are Troikas, they coded the game, but it does sound like many could be fixed if Atari would lay out the $$$ for a patch.

I'm bummed about how much content was lost forcing the T rating.

[nomad_Wanderer]

or how much of the game went unfinished/unfixed once atari stopped paying them...

[DamnLag]

anyone out there won the lottery lately? =) send them some patch cash, western union.. its faster.

[Gulshog]

Originally posted by Volourn
No, the bugs suck.

As Troika said in the chat; the bugs are theirs not Atari's. They just wish they had more time; but who doesn't?

Troika didn't cut a ton of game content from the game. Read the transcript, a lot got cut...more than I realized.

Troika didn't push the game out the door before it was done.

Troika didn't run the Q&A, Atari did.

They aren't Atari's bugs, but Troika was more than willing to work on the game to get rid of them. Atari ****ed up, and even now doesn't seem willing to pay for a patch that Troika has ready. Hell, they said in the chat Atari didn't go for a build that was already patched. That's just plain ****ing stupid if you ask me.

[xenomage]

true, troika couldnt fullfill their end of the contractual obligation and thats why they couldnt finish QA, so the bugs are their fault..but the missing content and they way atari is handling the whole public relations and patching aspect is truely shamefull...truely...but what else is new from big heartless, faceless publishing corporations...

[livonya]

Yeah, the lost content is really depressing.

The game industry is going to go so stale if all games strive for T ratings.

To be honest, I've started buying some games simply because they have an M rating. I am an adult (over 30) and I want to play adult themed games not crap for some other adult's children.

Pisses me off.

A lot of people thing Grand Theft Auto is offensive, all the more reason to buy it in my opinion.

[nomad_Wanderer]

I'm re-reading these chat transcripts.. I wonder how long this thread will be here.. (It clearly shows whos to blame for the early release.)


Then again it's not like the mod has been paying attention anyhoo though huh..

[xenomage]

and just the fact that there were no atari reps at that chat sows that they really dont care about us or the game. only the profit to be had..

[coradin]

agreed

[soylent]

My lightweight questions got picked, bleh :P. Plus I put the voice acting question to them nicely hoping they'd expand to how they felt it turned out. Instead he says the director hired non-Union. I'm not in the industry, what does that mean exactly? Professional actors that are less professional?

[olaf]

Sounds to me like there is going to be a patch. I think how comprehensive it is depends on whether or not Atari foots the bill. Whether they foot the bill...not sure but it would be shocking to me if they didnt. Its SOP to patch a game these days.

I am glad we finally got a straight answer regarding item descriptions. The first question was dodged, I am glad someone was persistent. I hope all the ass kissing sycophants that defended the way it exists in game will retire from the boards.

Anyway, sounds like we have a while to wait on a patch. That sucks.

olaf

[Belenus]

Originally posted by olaf
I hope all the ass kissing sycophants that defended the way it exists in game will retire from the boards.

No.