Ishamael/Elan Morin Tedronai/Moridin

Corwinn · 08-09-2005, 07:18 AM

According to my knowledge on the topic and WoT FAQ, Section 1.2.3 Ishamael, Elan Morin Tedronai and Moridin are three names of a same person. But here comes this (from WH: Chapter 35 - Osan'gar POV):

Quote:

But the fact remained that Moridin terrified him. The man had always terrified him, from the very beginning. He had been mad with power before they were sealed into the Bore, and since they had been freed, he seemed to think that HE was the Great Lord. Moridin would find out somehow if he fled, and kill him.

Offtopic: I asked for this quotation in another thread, because I was unsure if I'll translate it correctly back to English.

So it seems that Moridin have been sealed into the bore and later freed when Osan'gar was freed. Osan'gar also thinks of Moridin, not Ishamael or Elan Morin Tedronai. it is said that "Ishamael is only partially caught when the Bore is sealed." here.

What points out that Ishamael was partially caught?
If Moridin was imprisoned for the last 3k?
Your comment on the Osan'gar POV?

Demandred · 08-09-2005, 07:45 AM

Check this out:
Was Ishamael really bound(from WOTFAQ)

Spawnie · 08-09-2005, 08:10 AM

corwin, i think osan'gar must know who morridin really is. I mean, we all worked it out within a few seconds, and Agi was a genius.

Would that explain the passage?

taimon · 08-09-2005, 12:39 PM

Since both Aginor and Balthamel were _extremely_ aged when they were finaly turned loose(They were close to the edge), why wasn't Ishamael?

Spawnie · 08-09-2005, 12:54 PM

They started rejuvenating when they came free, and began chanelling.

If ishy has been sustained in immortality by the DO, and in his body bt the OP, -and- has spent bits of it deep inside the bore...

perhaps. I admit, im kinda just grasping at straws

Corwinn · 08-09-2005, 03:22 PM

10x.

It seems I'm missing information here. What is the "Guide" mentioned in the web page pointed out by Demandred?

Quote:

corwin, i think osan'gar must know who morridin really is. I mean, we all worked it out within a few seconds, and Agi was a genius.

Would that explain the passage?

It explains something. In fact it was my last second thought while writting the post (that Osan'gar thinks about Moridin). Sorry

.
The genius, as you pointed out, is thinking that Moridin was mad with power before they were sealed and after they were freed and this does not mean he was not mad with power while they were sealed for certain. So if the genius thinks like that, Moridin can not be the resurrected Ishamael (I'm not telling he is not. It is not my POV.). What means Osan'gar POV? Is he right or wrong and why?

Quote:

Since both Aginor and Balthamel were _extremely_ aged when they were finaly turned loose(They were close to the edge), why wasn't Ishamael?

Read what was pointed out by Demandred.

Drauka · 08-09-2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

The genius, as you pointed out, is thinking that Moridin was mad with power before they were sealed and after they were freed and this does not mean he was not mad with power while they were sealed for certain

I always toyed with the idea that moridin was from a vaccule. But still feel there is too much evidance that Mori is Ishi.

Corwinn · 08-09-2005, 04:02 PM

Quote:

But still feel there is too much evidance that Mori is Ishi.

I reapeat so you can understand. I feel* there is too much evidance that Mori is Ishi.

BlacKnight127 · 08-09-2005, 07:18 PM

The "guide", or the "big book of bad art" as it's often called around here

is actually "The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time" by Robert Jordan and Teresa Patterson. It's an interesting read, it has a lot of information that you can simply glean from the books(if you're paying attention), and some you can't as well.

Quote:

So it seems that Moridin have been sealed into the bore and later freed when Osan'gar was freed.

You have to remember here, Osan'gar (Aginor) was trapped deep enough in the bore that he was not out and about in the world like Ishy was. So he has no way of knowing that Ishy was out unless someone tells him this.
Also, since Ishy was in fact partially trapped, saying that they were both freed at the same time is in fact true. It's just that Agi was freed from total imprisonment, and Ishy was freed from partial imprisonment. It's a fine line to draw, but it is there

Drauka · 08-09-2005, 10:49 PM

Quote:

You have to remember here, Osan'gar (Aginor) was trapped deep enough in the bore that he was not out and about in the world like Ishy was. So he has no way of knowing that Ishy was out unless someone tells him this.

False, all forsaken can sort of watch randland like television. So sayth robert jordan in Q's of the week. How else do they speak randlandish?

Shadar the Mad · 08-10-2005, 06:34 AM

Quote:

But the fact remained that Moridin terrified him. The man had always terrified him, from the very beginning. He had been mad with power before they were sealed into the Bore, and since they had been freed, he seemed to think that HE was the Great Lord. Moridin would find out somehow if he fled, and kill him.

Ok, Osan'gar isn't a completely reliable source - he might believe Ishamael / Moridin was imprisoned like the rest of them, but that doesn't mean it's true, only that he believes it so.

Also, I don't interpret the above passage as meaning that Moridin was sealed with the rest. Are you assuming that "since they had been freed" includes Moridin? I read that simply as including he and Aran'gar / Balthamel, and maybe the later wakers.

Corwinn · 08-10-2005, 09:27 AM

No I'm not assuming it. There is ambiguity in that sentence ... Shadar the Mad you just gave me the answer I looked for. Thanks.

RJ is good, really good.

BlacKnight127 · 08-10-2005, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drauka
False, all forsaken can sort of watch randland like television. So sayth robert jordan in Q's of the week. How else do they speak randlandish?

Ah,I haven't been reading them

thanks for the tip

oh well, the rest of my post still holds.

Madlion · 08-10-2005, 07:57 PM

Actually, I'm pretty certain that RJ's asnwer to the language question was: They learned Randand's tongue very quickly because it's just a bastardization of the Old Tongue, a simpler language and the same one they already knew.

It even makes sense. A english speaker 500-1000 years ago would find our english quite easy to 'learn'. We would have a a much harder time learning 'old english' though, as it's more...well, redundant, and frivolous.

[Edit: At least, old french certainly is. And unless I'm mistaken, 'thou shalt not passeth' is actually the way it would have been spelled hundreds of years ago.]

[Edit: Excuse the typos, my hands are lazy tonight.]

odinspearx · 08-11-2005, 06:16 PM

Hey. "If" Moridin is Ishy, then Moridin WAS trapped in the Bore with the rest of them. Granted, he was not "as trapped" as the rest of them.

That Osan'gar thinks the name "Mordin", well, that's no surprise. He thinks of himself and Asan'gar as their new names, and Cyndane only uses her new name. Even Moridin doesn't think the name Ishy.

Both names are simply interchangable variables that point to the same person. So, Moridin WAS freed from the bore (included in "they").

This should make EVERYone happy!

- Emery

Drauka · 08-12-2005, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Actually, I'm pretty certain that RJ's asnwer to the language question was: They learned Randand's tongue very quickly because it's just a bastardization of the Old Tongue, a simpler language and the same one they already knew.

I skimmed the QoW again looking for it, and didn't find evidance either way. BUT I know for a fact that I remember it.

And look at the phrases in the old tounge. It is a lil' differnt. It is much more harsh to read and compare then modern english is to old english.

Shadar the Mad · 08-12-2005, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drauka
I skimmed the QoW again looking for it, and didn't find evidance either way. BUT I know for a fact that I remember it.

Yeah, it's gone from the first page, and the link to the archives doesn't work. But yes, I remember the one you're thinking of...

Quote:

And look at the phrases in the old tounge. It is a lil' differnt. It is much more harsh to read and compare then modern english is to old english.

Actually, that one's easy to answer. Yes, the Old Tongue is very different to the language that books are written in - but that's because the language spoken by the characters is translated into English for the benefit of readers who don't speak it. The 'actual' language used is much closer to the Old Tongue.

It's much the same as with Tolkien - the Lord of the Rings is written in English, but that's not actually the language spoken internally. It's just the language chosen to represent the Westron tongue used by the majority of Men.

Spawnie · 08-12-2005, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Madlion
Actually, I'm pretty certain that RJ's asnwer to the language question was: They learned Randand's tongue very quickly because it's just a bastardization of the Old Tongue, a simpler language and the same one they already knew.

It even makes sense. A english speaker 500-1000 years ago would find our english quite easy to 'learn'. We would have a a much harder time learning 'old english' though, as it's more...well, redundant, and frivolous.

[Edit: At least, old french certainly is. And unless I'm mistaken, 'thou shalt not passeth' is actually the way it would have been spelled hundreds of years ago.]

[Edit: Excuse the typos, my hands are lazy tonight.]

Modern english would be much harder to learn. Much larger vocabulary, many more words of foreign origin, plus the usual change of language through speech.

420Sedai · 08-12-2005, 10:36 AM

I think Mordin/Ishy healded himself almost instantaneously with the TP when he was free enough to do so. We know he is the only forsaken to freely use the TP and he is quite fond of it. This would explain why he is not aged. If I rember corectly he is a very good looking man.

Corenne · 08-12-2005, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadar the Mad
Yeah, it's gone from the first page, and the link to the archives doesn't work. But yes, I remember the one you're thinking of...

I think the referenced question of the week only referred to Aginor and Balthamel (and perhaps Ishy's) state of imprisonment. Contrast that against Lanfear's recapitulation of her stay in the Bore:

Quote:

I was buried deeply, in a dreamless sleep where time did not flow.

Decisions, The Shadow Rising

Thus, it seems like Moridin/Ishy, Aginor/Osan'gar, and Balthamel/Aran'gar were more the exception than the rule. Most of the other FS were probably trapped like Lanfear, deeper in the Bore where they were not consciously aware of the world around them as history passed them by for several thousand years.

08-09-2005, 07:45 AM	#2
Demandred Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 249	Check this out: Was Ishamael really bound(from WOTFAQ) __________________ Thom, if I ever look like acting the hero again, you kick me. -Mat Cauthon Formerly known as Demandred Z

08-09-2005, 08:10 AM	#3
Spawnie Alright, fine. Im not friggin ***ned. Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Drunk as a poet on payday Posts: 9,135	corwin, i think osan'gar must know who morridin really is. I mean, we all worked it out within a few seconds, and Agi was a genius. Would that explain the passage? __________________ "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl. Then he paused for a long minute and added, "And, son, never trust a drunk except when he's on his knees."

08-09-2005, 12:54 PM	#5
Spawnie Alright, fine. Im not friggin ***ned. Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Drunk as a poet on payday Posts: 9,135	They started rejuvenating when they came free, and began chanelling. If ishy has been sustained in immortality by the DO, and in his body bt the OP, -and- has spent bits of it deep inside the bore... perhaps. I admit, im kinda just grasping at straws __________________ "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl. Then he paused for a long minute and added, "And, son, never trust a drunk except when he's on his knees."

08-10-2005, 09:27 AM	#12
Corwinn Prince of Amber Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bulgaria Posts: 77	No I'm not assuming it. There is ambiguity in that sentence ... Shadar the Mad you just gave me the answer I looked for. Thanks. RJ is good, really good. __________________ "Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time, may learn the truth too late."

08-12-2005, 10:36 AM	#19
420Sedai Walk in the Light Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,399	I think Mordin/Ishy healded himself almost instantaneously with the TP when he was free enough to do so. We know he is the only forsaken to freely use the TP and he is quite fond of it. This would explain why he is not aged. If I rember corectly he is a very good looking man. __________________ Drugs may lead nowhere but it is one hell of a scenic rout! Bonded to Spawnie, light of my life and eternal source of wit and wisdom.

08-09-2005, 12:39 PM	#4
taimon Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 50	Since both Aginor and Balthamel were _extremely_ aged when they were finaly turned loose(They were close to the edge), why wasn't Ishamael?

08-10-2005, 07:57 PM	#14
Madlion Kefka Reincarnated Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Quebec, Canada Posts: 189	Actually, I'm pretty certain that RJ's asnwer to the language question was: They learned Randand's tongue very quickly because it's just a bastardization of the Old Tongue, a simpler language and the same one they already knew. It even makes sense. A english speaker 500-1000 years ago would find our english quite easy to 'learn'. We would have a a much harder time learning 'old english' though, as it's more...well, redundant, and frivolous. [Edit: At least, old french certainly is. And unless I'm mistaken, 'thou shalt not passeth' is actually the way it would have been spelled hundreds of years ago.] [Edit: Excuse the typos, my hands are lazy tonight.]

08-11-2005, 06:16 PM	#15
odinspearx Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 205	Hey. "If" Moridin is Ishy, then Moridin WAS trapped in the Bore with the rest of them. Granted, he was not "as trapped" as the rest of them. That Osan'gar thinks the name "Mordin", well, that's no surprise. He thinks of himself and Asan'gar as their new names, and Cyndane only uses her new name. Even Moridin doesn't think the name Ishy. Both names are simply interchangable variables that point to the same person. So, Moridin WAS freed from the bore (included in "they"). This should make EVERYone happy! - Emery

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