Character Creation: why so anal?

[Delglath]

I'd love to hear from the developers but failing that, I'll settle for opinions on this subject.

The subject is that from what I hear, character creation is totally anal-retentive. I truly have to wonder why that is since by limiting character creation, you're limiting the enjoyment of the game for the player.

Wtf does a developer or programmer care if you play the game with a character who has 20 in all stats? I mean... really... who gives a rats arse?

What logical, reasonable, reason is there to so severely limit character creation in such a game? It's a damn game! It's meant to be fun for the people PLAYING it, not for the people who made it!

Why should they dictate to me what is and isn't reasonable?

This is a problem that has plagued D&D style games for years, IMO. I never play any of the damn games until I can find a hack program to make the party up the way *I* want it to be. I mean... wtf is the point of making you roll three thousand times to get the character you want? So friggin' what if someone has a character with all 20's as their stats?

Now... if this were a primarily online game, sure, I could, to a limited degree, understand the necessity for such severe restriction, but even then, if you don't want to play with someone who has 20's in all their stats, then don't play with them!

So... anyway, I just don't get it. To me, there is no logical or reasonable reason to place such anal-retentive restrictions on character creation. Who is it satisfying except the egos of the control freaks who are making the game?

As opposed to the egos of the control freaks playing the game?


Why don't you write a nice cordial mail to Gary Gygax? He designed the system which all of the stat rolling was based, and it's only worked for a few decades, and made the publishers of DnD books a few million dollars.

[fleabitfox]

Um.. it's the rules guy. This game is using 3.5 rules on an older module. If you want to 'hack' it for yourself, cool.. knock yourself out, or wait for a 'trainer'.

I for one would be disgusted if the character creation interface was: "Insert # between 1 and 20 for each stat". That is not how the D&D rules go. It has nothing to do with being 'control freaks'. This game is a simulation of the real game. Does your DM allow you to just write down whatever #'s you like upon character creation?

I don't get your venom.. you are getting upset because the devs are staying true to the game rules. Okaaay then.

Might as well complain that they don't just pop up a spell list of all spells in the game, and let you cast them whenever you like.

FleabitFox

Funniest post all day!

[seanly]

Okay, a little harsh there.

D&D is very stat driven. If your character had all 20s then the game balance would probably make the game a little too easy. Okay, so they could balance it so it would still be tough for someone with all 20s. Well, then why have stats at all?

A limit on the stats or making you roll 80 times to get all 18's (the highest you can get initially in D&D), forces the player to make choices. Since you aren't going to be able to put an 18 everywhere, you may have to choose between putting a 12 or a 9 in strength vs in wisdom. Part of the fun in D&D is the character creation proccess - you'll miss out on a lot by hacking it.

Also, to be kinda frank, if you need all 20s in your character to do well in a party driven D&D game, then you must be doing something wrong. The latest editions of D&D allow a person with 13 & 14s in their prime stats (like Strength for a fighter or Intelligence for a wizard) to be pretty good characters. Plus you get to add a point to a stat every 4 lvls!

I think that you'll find that if you roll a few times and make characters with some of the better results, you'll have a good party. You don't need 5 guys with maxed stats to have fun.

[crpgnut]

Perhaps Delglath is one of those who likes to blow thru a game real fast and say, "Ha ha ha, I beat it in 12 hours. I rule!!!"
It's very difficult to do this if everyone starts on the same playing field. With what Troika's done, everyone would make fun of him if he said that, noting that he rolled 15,386 times to create his Uber party

[Delglath]

Originally posted by fleabitfox
Um.. it's the rules guy. This game is using 3.5 rules on an older module. If you want to 'hack' it for yourself, cool.. knock yourself out, or wait for a 'trainer'.

The rules also allow for point buy but I don't see that in the game...

The rules certainly don't make any mention of counting how many times you roll. That was a Troika decision. In other words, they've decided to limit the player's capability to create the party/character they want for no real reason.

Who are you to say that the game is enjoyable only if you get a sucky character rolled randomly by a machine? Some people enjoy having uber characters, other's just enjoy having specifically statted characters.

Personally, I enjoy specifically statted characters that fit within a concept I've preconceived. With Troika's system, I can't do that. Well, I can... I just have to roll three billion times in order to get the character I want. It's not a matter of having uber stats for me, it's a matter of having the RIGHT stats in the right place. Troika doesn't even allow the meagre concession of other D&D games whereby you could do point swaps, no, you're stuck with what you roll, each time you roll.

There is NO reason for this.

And just for the record, I've played RPG's for over fifteen years and computer RPG's for almost as long. Every post in this thread has arrogantly assumed I'm a newbie coming at this from some unresearched, unthought of stance and what's more, most have been outright insulting.

I'm not insulting anyone here, so if you haven't got anything constructive to add, STFU.

[Delglath]

Originally posted by seanly
Part of the fun in D&D is the character creation proccess - you'll miss out on a lot by hacking it.

For you, maybe. But who are you to say what is and isn't enjoyable for the rest of gamers? That is what Troika is doing. They're dictating to the gamer.

At the end of the day, there is no real reason for them to do this.

Everyone so far has come up with a lot of insults but no logical reason why Troika should limit character creation the way they have.

If you enjoy having a character with 8's and 12's in their scores, bully for you. But that doesn't mean everybody else does. Where is the choice?

Well, constructive is relative so here I go.

I believe there IS a 25 point buy built into the game. If so, then this is moot, because you can put your points where you want. If you want more then you invalidate your post above, as you're using the rules in your argument.

If I'm wrong about the point buy, my apologies ... but I'm fairly certain I'm correct.

[crpgnut]

Delglath, you just made me feel old. I started playing D&D in 1978 after a visit to Champaign, IL. The University had the Judges Guild books in little plastic comic book holders and we bought them. I guess I've been playing RPGs for 25 years! Good grief! I still remember us all going in on the Keep on the Borderlands module, I think it was called, when it first came out. D&D rules

Maybe you are being anal, and the rest of us that just appreciate rules for what they are, are normal.

Holy sh!zm, that made sense. OMG, maybe its just anarchist, that actually have the mental disorder. I think I am onto something.

I have to agree with whippo about listening to this guys rant being hilarious.

To fall in with Dromin :

Yes, there is a point-buy option.
25 point, weighted.

As for rolling your stats, it rolls 6 stats, which you can then assign to the 6 attributes. You can re-arrange them any way you like.

Now stop the trolling and be a good boy and enjoy the game when it comes out.

-Gerko, *shaking head in disbelief*

[Delglath]

Originally posted by Dromin
I believe there IS a 25 point buy built into the game.

If there is, then I take most of it back as point buy allows for exactly what I want in character creation; the ability to choose my character's stats.

However, that said, allowing just 25 point buy when even the RPGA has 28 as standard, is still a bit limiting.

I think people are failing to get the point of what I'm trying to say here. In a game where you play with other people, there is a reason for limiting stats, but even then, the group decides on what method to use.

In this instance, the majority of people will be playing this game at home, by themselves, right? So what's the point of limiting the character creation process when the only thing it truly achieves is to frustrate the end-user?

How many of you accept the FIRST roll of a character in any of these games? Be honest. Out of dozens upon dozens of people I've discussed these games with over the years, NONE have done so and all have sought to create parties based on their favourite characters, or have sought to create new favourite characters in the game, which has also required specific stats in specific places to fulfill specific roles.

There is nothing wrong with this, IMO. It's all part of the fun of the game FOR ME and many others. The frustrating thing is that the system artificially limits you for no real reason other than some bizarre need by the developers to control the entire user experience.

My point isn't that I want all characters with all 20's. My point is, that there is no point in NOT allowing that. If that's what someone enjoys, then bully for them, why not let them have their fun?

And as to the rules... sheesh, I challenge you to conduct a poll on any D&D based message board about character creation methods. Ask specifically what point buy people use, 25, 28, or 32 and I BET most people say they use 32. Why am I so confident of that? 'Cause I've conducted those surveys myself...

So why the Hell should Troika dictate to me, and everybody else, what is and isn't enjoyable? If I want to play the damn game with 20's in all my characters stats, then what purpose does it serve to the makers of the game, to prevent me from doing so?

I agree with Delgath. Why shouldn;t we be able to have 20s in every stats. And why do my characters start out at level one, they should be at least level 10 during creation, if *I* want to play that way. I have also heard troika will not let put in swords that kill ever monster they are swung at with a single attack. All of this clearly impedes my ability create the characters I want, and should be changed.

[BlackOmne]

99% of the games out there are defined by a set of rules.

One of the rules of ToEE is a reasonable (and most people who will buy the game consider them reasonable - you're in the very distinct miniority) set of limits to your characters' stats. This is intended so that the characters represent a fictional representation of 'real' people in a fantasy world that most people can project a variation of themselves on (ie, role-playing). The rules don't allow for the player to create supermen, superelves, superdwarves with big "S's" on their chest.

If you don't like the rule set, go elsewhere.

Some people just can't stand to lose or face a challenge. Therefore, they need to bend the rules to allow them be a winner. It seems to me that Delgath is the kind of person who would insist that you change the rules of poker so he can be dealt six cards while everyone else is dealt five cards.

And when most people don't agree with him, he loses his temper and tells everyone where to stick it. Things have to be his way and damn anyone who gets in his way.

[Hi C]

I have 1 word for this person.

Diablo.

Have a nice day powergamer.

[fleabitfox]

Look.. it's simple. People make games. Be it Monopoly, Risk, computer games, RPGs.. whatever. These games have set rules. People play by these rules. If they don't like to, they can play with house rules instead.

For computer games, there are cheat programs / trainers. It has always been this way. Just wait for a trainer, and then you can do whatever you like.

*****ing that they are not letting you customize your stats anyway you feel necessary is ludicrous. They are implementing the rules this game is played by. You want to play by your own set of rules.

Choices: Wait for trainer, or don't buy this game.. and design your own.

This is the silliest rant about a CRPG I have ever seen.

FleabitFox

[seanly]

Originally posted by Delglath
For you, maybe. But who are you to say what is and isn't enjoyable for the rest of gamers? That is what Troika is doing. They're dictating to the gamer.

At the end of the day, there is no real reason for them to do this.

Everyone so far has come up with a lot of insults but no logical reason why Troika should limit character creation the way they have.

If you enjoy having a character with 8's and 12's in their scores, bully for you. But that doesn't mean everybody else does. Where is the choice?

Okay, #1 - Troika is using the point buy system. You'll start with 8s in all stats & have 25 points to buy. You can get stats that add up to btwn 71 to 73.

The rolling method is 4d6 drop lowest. With 10 or 12 hits of re-roll, you will get pretty good stats. Some will not be too good. The one limitation is that if they come up 12, 15, 16,10, 11,14 then all you can do is rearrange them. No adding or subtracting. But you can roll until you pass out & you head smashes onto your keyboard. Eventually, you would get the 18s you want, but not the 20s!

Ironman Mode only allows you to roll once per character. This will be a challenge. It will be fun to non-power gamers & fans of pnp D&D.

#2 - I am the King of the Earth & what I say is fun is fun! Now, everyone remove your pants and walk around outside! NOW!

[AlanC9]

I'm a little surprised that point buy doesn't follow RPGA standards. Maybe it went to 28 after Troika set 25?

As for unlimited stats, how about a "cheat" button on the character creation screen that would max all stats (you could dial them down afterward if you like). If you don't like the button, don't use it. I wouldn't be bothered by this, even though I would never, ever use it.

[Sheriff05]

You can roll 4D6 until the cows come home, and noone will ever know, so do as you will. the game is striving to emulate the PNP ruleset. your attitude in your initial post sucks.

[Lachoon]

This is the funniest thread I've read on this forum yet!

[FelixVonHauson]

A few things:

When you DM, you decide to let your characters use a 32 point buy system. In ToEE, you're not the DM, Troika is, and they say 25 point buy OR assigned rolls. Do you argue with your DM about how he/she says characters in the game they are running should be made? Reading your previous posts I would say, yes you do. But that won't change the DM's stance, they run the game how they want. It's your option to play by their rules or not play.

As to why they decided to be strict about it. If you've been playing for 15 years you know that this game is THE classic game, so many, many D&D fans will be interested in it. If Troika allowed people to twink their character stats to super-men, the game would be a lot easier for those characters than intended. So all those people who beat the game in two hours, because maxxed out characters is fun for them, go and tell all their friends that the game was far too easy and not worth the money to buy.

Or they are trying to recreate the sense of awe and excitement that we all felt when we firt played the module for those that have never played it. Allowing these people to have maxxed characters will decrease the special feeling of the game FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE PLAYERS. Since Troika can't satisy everyone, they will go with the creation model that works for the most people. Which happens to be a point buy/non-modified rolls system. I'm assuming they ran test polls to find out what the majority of their test audience prefers.

Edit: Or they just wanted to stick to the 3.5 ruleset (go figure!)

[Gulshog]

Originally posted by Delglath

So... anyway, I just don't get it. To me, there is no logical or reasonable reason to place such anal-retentive restrictions on character creation. Who is it satisfying except the egos of the control freaks who are making the game?

I just don't get you. But, Gary Gygax made the game, not Troika. Go ***** on his forums.

Originally posted by Delglath
However, that said, allowing just 25 point buy when even the RPGA has 28 as standard, is still a bit limiting.

As per the DMG, 25 is the standard (but 28 can also be used for tougher campaigns). Troika did follow the rules.

Satisfied? Now, get yourself a lollipop.

And another point ...

If you walk into an encouter with stats that total in the 90s, then you're going to waltz through it. The system is in place to keep it challenging. If you don't want a challenge, then why play?

Maybe you wanna just create a favorite character? Well, make do with the 25 points, or take your chance with the dice.

You know, with all the time you've spent complaining about this one "flaw", you could spend the same amount of time when the game comes out and have any set of stats you wanted ...

[silonez]

Quick, someone make a poll about this!

Originally posted by Delglath
I enjoy specifically statted characters that fit within a concept I've preconceived. With Troika's system, I can't do that. Well, I can... I just have to roll three billion times in order to get the character I want. It's not a matter of having uber stats for me, it's a matter of having the RIGHT stats in the right place. Troika doesn't even allow the meagre concession of other D&D games whereby you could do point swaps, no, you're stuck with what you roll, each time you roll.

Are you confusing Ironman Mode with the normal character creation process, perhaps?

[Sword of Cyric]

Originally posted by AlanC9
I'm a little surprised that point buy doesn't follow RPGA standards. Maybe it went to 28 after Troika set 25?

The RPGA is using 28 since at least 2.5 years (and 32 for their FR campaign)

The standard value in D&D (also the value used for determining CRs and such things) is indeed 25 points.

The iconic characters are all created with 25 points as well.

[troika_hnguyen]

Originally posted by Delglath
This is a problem that has plagued D&D style games for years, IMO. I never play any of the damn games until I can find a hack program to make the party up the way *I* want it to be.

IIRC, the gold box AD&D games allowed you to "modify" your characters, so you could create characters and modify them to all 18's, 18/100, or whatever (racial and gender limits not withstanding).

btw, obviously it's not troika's system per se; it's D&D 3.0/3.5 rules... but yes, we're actually "breaking rules" already by allowing unlimited rerolls (and yes, the DMG 25 point buy method is in). rerolls and choice in generation method were considered enough flexibility for most gamers; anything else, well, you'd have to ask WoTC about their rules system

as a design decision, you could argue if that we're already allowing multiple rerolls, why not just have 200+ point buy or whatever - if it makes you feel any better, i fought to get the different DMG point buy start values in the game (28, 32, etc - called "high-powered campaigns" or something?), but they didn't make it in in time, unfortunately, as other parts of the game were deemed more important to work on and get into the game.

we'll all have to live with it ....i understand the frustration, despite the undertones of your first post, but what's implemented right now should be more than satisfactory (we hope).

anyways, just like rolling the bones in PnP - there is some tactile feel (for some people) with rolling the character and finally getting the scores that you want... granted, if the rerolling is tedious, it just plain sucks. i hated rerolling characters in like wizardry, which required you to go thru the entire creation process before letting you reroll - god that was awful. finally rewarding, but awful to go through (wiz6 and wiz7 i think)

[Sword of Cyric]

Originally posted by troika_hnguyen
(and yes, the DMG 25 point buy method is in

Any final word about hp?

I mean like Half-HD+Con or something like this instead of rolling your HD?

It's a little against the purpose of using point buy, if you combine it with random hp.

PB is used to get the random factor out our your char and with rolled hp it IMO contradicts the purpose of point buy.


IMO if there are fixed HP (no matter which way) i will make a PB party, if there are only random HP, i will also roll their stats