Cleansing of Saidin question

[masterofblades]

OK, so we know that Rand cleansed Saidin using the opposite evil of Mashadar to help desroy the taint, but RJ has also said that Fain, Mashadar, and Mordeth are new and unique to this age, so how did the previous Dragons of the Third Age cleanse the taint? I mean the tainting and subsequent cleansing are big enough events that we can assume that they are a requirement for the age, but how could it have been done without Mashadar to act as counterpoint to the evil?

[raistmajer]

I believe the taint was a new thing as well.
Each rotation of the wheel isn't EXACTLY the same as the last.

[JennAiel]

Yes each age has to be different, because:

Third Age: Everyone is happy, no one seems to know about the Dark One or at least where he is since Lanfear happens to stumble upon his resting place. They let him out, then push him back and seal him and he uses his counter to taint Saidin.

This Age: They know where he is, they hold the seals which are weakening. Rand cleanses Saidin.

It could be that every Seven Ages are the same every turning and each Age is basically a chapter that will get rewritten with few differences. So I would say that every Third Age he gets out, gets put back in and taints Saidin. This age, it gets cleansed and he gets put back in (we hope).

And it could be, through hints, that us in 2004 are along the lines of the 5th Age where no one has any idea whats going on about any of it. We dont know about the DO, AS, the OP because hes been holed up for a long time and possibly we forget cause Rand goes nuts and breaks the world after the DO is sealed and everyones too scared to use the OP.


Sorry if that last paragraph doesnt make sense...tell me if it doesnt and Ill work on it, ha.

[raistmajer]

Makes sense to me ^_^

[masterofblades]

It does make sense but what I am saying is that if Rand, the Dragon-whoever-, always has to cleanse Saidin, how could it have been done without Mashadar to act as counterpoint to the taint's evil? Since RJ has said that Mashadar, Mordeth, and Fain are new to this turning, and the Cleansing of Saidin is sufficiently big enough an event to be required every age.

[U4ea]

Perhaps something on the level of Mashadar has always been in the pattern, though not being Mashadar itself? Thus it would be new with this turning, but the evil would always have been there.

Just a random thought...ignore me if it doesn't make sense...

[masterofblades]

I mistyped, its fixed now.

[Zaiyac Drayon]

Did RJ say that those were the ONLY new things? Did he ever mention that the Taint is old? Because I would think that unless otherwise stated, the taint would be new. If you are an ancient evil that has been sealed so many times in the past, why would you not try different approaches each chance you got? The DO is outside the time of the pattern, so he is not created in the 1st age and killed in the 7th so he must watch the turnings and experience each breaking out and each sealing and remember it. So why would he do the exact same thing each turning if it always fails?

[Der'Saidin]

who knows.
but he does keep failing

maybe he cant win and the creator just made him to be teased. hehehe stupid evil superbeing

[masterofblades]

Yes, but if he is outside of the time of the Wheel, then why would each turning mean anything to him, or if he is outside of time, then he is fighting all the ages at once. Or perhaps since time has little meaning to him, he is playing the longterm approach, each turning doing something only slightly different so that his power grows stronger each and every turning. Also, as to why he would do the same thing each 3rd age or whatever age it is, how about because the Wheel weaves the pattern a certain way every time, so there is only a limited number of things he can do that would have any effect.

And remember, RJ has said that the DO isn't remotely human and doesn't think like us, so don't try to understand him in human terms, as if its possible for us to uderstand him any other way, lol.

[Zaiyac Drayon]

I caught a lot of "perhaps" and "maybes" in there

[Sh'botay]

Originally posted by Der'Saidin
who knows.
but he does keep failing

maybe he cant win and the creator just made him to be teased. hehehe stupid evil superbeing

Well he does have a hard job. He has to be released in every world in the multiverse, or he isn't released in any of them.

Anyway, I forget where I heard this, it may or not have been from RJ, but I heard or read once that each individual Turning was like a painting, in which two paintings of two different Turnings would look the same from a difference, but up close some of the minute details would be different. Now, if you consider that the Wheel has allegedly been turning forever, some of those further paintings must look very different. But, the existence of the Taint made a huge difference in the history of the Third Age; I doubt it could be the first time, not without weaving a vastly different and unique Turning.

[Power_Surge_X]

Has anyone considered that the age described in the WoT series may be the very last age? The age to end the turning of the wheel...

[JennAiel]

Hm, that could be interesting and new thread worthy. Depends on how you look at it. If the wheel decided to slow down or something and stop, we'd have a couple more aqes to go through, otherwise...it would mean the Wheel had been broken.

[Zaiyac Drayon]

Originally posted by Sh'botay
Well he does have a hard job. He has to be released in every world in the multiverse, or he isn't released in any of them.

Actually, its the other way around. If he breaks free in any of the worlds, he breaks free in all of them.

[Aviendha]

Originally posted by Zaiyac Drayon
Actually, its the other way around. If he breaks free in any of the worlds, he breaks free in all of them.

No "actually" about it. It's both. (According to the infallible Verin.)

[raistmajer]

And we all know SHE can't lie

[U4ea]

*coughs*

[Zaiyac Drayon]

Well, that was a pointless comment. The quote was

Well he does have a hard job. He has to be released in every world in the multiverse, or he isn't released in any of them.

And I said that if he is released in one he is automatically released in all of them. How the hell can it be both? How can he only need to be released in one yet need to be released in all of them?

Do you have a quote of Verin saying that? Because Im certain I remember one of the characters saying that if he is released in any, he is released on all of them, since he is outside of the pattern and the multiverses dont really affect him; he is consistant in all of them in the same way.

[Aviendha]

Originally posted by Zaiyac Drayon
And I said that if he is released in one he is automatically released in all of them. How the hell can it be both?

Paradox.

Do you have a quote of Verin saying that?

I am Aan`allein. I don't need quotes.
Ah, but whatever, sure, if you really want...

"Well, that is neither here nor there. In all of these worlds, whatever their other variations, a few things are constant. One is that the Dark One is imprisoned in all of them."
In spite of herself, Egwene stepped closer to peer at the lines Verin had drawn. "In all of them? How can that be? Are you saying there is a Father of Lies for each world?" The thought of so many Dark Ones made her shiver.
"No, child. There is one Creator, who exists everywhere at once for all of these worlds. In the same way, there is only one Dark One, who also exists in all of these worlds at once. If he is freed from the prison the Creator made in one world, he is freed on all. So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned on all."
"That does not seem to make sense," Egwene protested.
"Paradox, child. The Dark One is the embodiment of paradox and chaos, the destroyer of reason and logic, the breaker of balance, the unmaker of order."

(TDR, Chapter 21, Page 239 [Tor paperback])

[Zaiyac Drayon]

It says nowhere in that quote that he has to be released in all of them, only that he would be if he were released in 1. So I wasnt mistaken when I said "Actually..."

[Aviendha]

"the Dark One is imprisoned in all of them."
"So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned on all."

ergo... he also needs to be released in all of them (so that he doesn't remain a prisoner in one), or he remains imprisoned on all, and thus isn't released in any of them.
Which is what sh'botay said.


(And if you're now going to argue that being released is not the exact opposite of remaining imprisoned (for the purposes of this discussion), I will roll my eyes at you.)

[raistmajer]

Avi, first of all you're talking in your Avihenda form, not your Aan`allein incarnation.

Second, you just wanted to use the word "ergo" didn't you?

[Zaiyac Drayon]

Woops, Im a moron. I didnt notice that part about if he is imprisoned in one he is imprisoned in all. Sorry.

[masterofblades]

Anyone know how to submit those weekly questions to RJ? I have the feeling thats the only way I am going to get an answer.

[HeartoftheDark]

Back to the original question.....

The darkness of Shadar Logoth was merely incendental in Rand's efforts.

The Eye of the World was a Well of saidin that male and female AS cleansed of the Taint, and they did it sans Mashadar.

Rand needed a place that would be far removed from anything and where he could be somewhat undisturbed. (And more to that end, he had that entire entourage (sp?) with him.) With all that saidin being pushed through a filter of saidar, it would have to go somewhere. And so he'll send it into Shadar Logoth. Two birds with one stone, cleans the Taint and purge out Mashadar.

[Julius al'Thain]

Originally posted by HeartoftheDark
The darkness of Shadal Logoth was merely incendental in Rand's efforts.
.
.
Rand needed a place that would be far removed from anything and where he could be somewhat undisturbed. (And more to that end, he had that entire entourage (sp?) with him.) With all that saidin being pushed through a filter of saidar, it would have to go somewhere. And so he'll send it into Shadar Logoth. Two birds with one stone, cleans the Taint and purge out Mashadar.

Um, I'd have to disagree there. Remember Rand fighting Sammael in Shadar Logoth? His 2 wounds throbbed in a counterpoint, or whatever it was.
He also needed to send the Taint somewhere.
And I could be off-target here, but I thought the saidar was only a conduit, not a filter. *needs to check, will do so in...10 hours*

[masterofblades]

HoD, using the Eye as an example is a bad idea since the males and the females both had to give their lives to make that well pure.

[Spawnie]

But a good idea in that we know it -can- be done without madashar/shadar lagoth

[Nevman]

Going back to the secondary question. . .

I see it as something like this: If the DO is freed in one world, then it has access to all worlds via TAR. So free in one, free in all. In my eyes then, the trapped in one, trapped in all bit just means that if the DO is trapped in one world, then it must be also trapped in all worlds.

And I thought for the cleansing, Rand used saidar to squeeze saidin into a tight, fast flow. But pulled the Taint away with the evil that was Shadar Logoth. After all, Demandred quickly worked out how Rand was hoping to cleanse saidin once he knew where he was pulling off this stunt from.

Lastly, the Taint is a huge event in the turning of the wheel from the view point that it has removed the male Aes Sedai from society for over 3000 years, stunting growth and leaving the people of Randland in the medieval ages . . .

. . . or has it? What would have happened if the war had lasted longer, but the power had never been tainted? What if a similar scale of destruction had occured merely through warfare, decimating the channeling population of both the Light and Shadow? Three thousand years later, the world views the war as the Aes Sedai's fault, and their persistance in trying to revive what they claim to have been the old form of government before the war that broke the world is met with bared teeth for smiles - no one wanting to give up the power they have carved for themselves from the wreckage.

The Taint is a means of disrupting the world, forcing it down upon weakened knees. Increase the suspicion and distrust for the One Power whilst reducing the number of channelers, and you gain a similar affect. One that doesn't require Shadar Logoth and all the evil it entailed for the world to be prepared for the Dark One's return. One that leaves a similar overal pattern of war and stagnation in the tapestry's weave, or a painting that would look the same from a distance, but up close the minute details would be different.

Basically, I'd argue that tainting saidin is merely one way of getting to the big picture of the world that RJ has painted for us in this series. Just as Shadar Logoth was merely one way of cleansing the Taint.