What's wrong with Peeps...some observations

[Scrith]

I got tired of trying to figure out why my meticulously designed park was doing so poorly...so many rides were just being ignored, only the front part of the park was getting a lot of foot traffic, and many peeps were walking around in a sick or exhausted state. So I spent a couple of hours watching a group of 3 people enter my park, move around in it, then leave, and I think I discovered the source of many of the problems with peeps: Groups.

It appears that everything a group of peeps does (and most peeps in the park are members of a group) is based on the needs/wants/desires of the group leader. For example:

- my group of 3 did not use the restrooms until the leader needed to, despite the fact that one of the members needed to go so badly for a long time that he was walking around very slowly, causing the other 2 members to stop and wait for him repeatedly.

- my group of 3 did not eat until the leader was hungry, despite the fact that other members were hungry first. Also, only the leader (or the leader and one other person) ate on two occasions, meaning the unlucky third group member never got to eat! He was at full red bar of hunger for much of my observation period. A similar problem happened for thirst.

- my entire group took a long, long time to stop and sit down when low on Energy, which caused them to move very slowly. They passed by many empty benches even though the leader was completely exhausted. And, when the finally did stop, only the leader sat down! The poor other group members stayed completely exhausted.

- for some reason, my group leader's nausea level jumped from less than half to completely full while they were just walking along on a sidewalk. During rides it would go up slowly. I didn't notice anything that would make it go up so quickly...this appears to be a bug? Or, at least, an overreaction to something they see when walking along on the sidewalk?

- because my group leader kept stopping to wait for the exhausted, starving, needing-to-use-the-restroom members so often, she kept reversing back to the direction they originally came from after the struggling group members had caught up. FOR THIS REASON THEY NEVER MADE IT TO THE BACK 2/3 OF MY PARK.

- when they first entered the park, the walked right by a couple of rides that they went onto later on.

- they never went on any rides after one of the members became so exhausted that he was never within range of the others.

THESE ARE FUNDAMENTAL, SHOWSTOPPING BUGS THAT ANY COMPETENT TESTING (AND ENGINEERING) TEAM SHOULD HAVE CAUGHT AND FIXED BEFORE THE GAME SHIPPED.

Why are the customers having to find the bugs for you? And how long will they have to wait for fixes?

[meowsqueak]

Up until the last two lines, I was thinking this is a really good bug report.

Why not edit your post, remove the second-to-last unnecessary line, and send a copy to rctdemo@frontier.co.uk ? Bug reports don't need to be confrontational, aggressive or condescending - it's unprofessional and it doesn't help.

[Spryboy]

It WAS and IS a really good bug report.

And I can completely understand the frustration that lead to the final two lines, and I honestly think those lines are perfectly justified. And I say that as a software developer myself.

[Stylez84]

Very nice finds.

[meowsqueak]

I am also a software developer and the thing that pisses me off THE MOST is customers resorting to lines like "if you were competent, this would never have happened". It's unnecessary, fails to enhance the dialogue and leaves a sour taste in the recipient's mouth. Be polite and accurate and the developers will appreciate it far more.

[jack607]

Nice finds!! This is good, I love all these bug reports, and now I'm happy that Aussies get it later.

Why, you ask? Well,

1) I know what to look out for in the Game, so I'm not disapointed when I play it.

2) The game may (probably won't) change before I get it (Monday the 8th), so it may be better

3) Because I can download the Patch and play partiaclly bugless for the first time.

[Pincho Paxton]

More problems. I am starting to get annoyed myself. I won't though.

[Khrest]

The Peep's thoughts window is largely useless for developing your park.

It's a fundamental BUG when a peep says 'I really want to go on XYZ again' as soon as he gets off and then promptly walks straight past the queue line, when (1) there is no queue to stop him & (2) he has money left in his pocket.

This has happening dozens of times in my current park.

Why bother telling us then

Still, at least I can make money building a forest of Sky Slings, the idiot Peeps love those to bits and will queue all day to go on them, leaving all the other queues empty.

[Pincho Paxton]

Yeah, Frontier aren't playing the same game.

[Scrith]

OK, maybe I was a bit harsh, but, still, there really is no excuse for customers having to find bugs like these. And, having to spend a couple of hours just observing the AI in order to determine some of the things that are wrong with this game is justification enough to vent against the company that prematurely released it, in my opinion.

I am also a game developer, and have been an engineer on games that have sold millions of copies, for the biggest game developer in the world...and, honestly, I would be really disappointed if we ever shipped a game in a state like this. This game is what I'd consider an early beta, at best. By the way, AI is what I usually work on.

That being said...what is working in RCT3 is working very well, and I am really looking forward to playing it once a few of the bugs get fixed. Until then, I'm very frustrated, as a consumer, and rather disappointed, as a fellow game developer.

[rcthelp]

Scrith, maybe you'd like to review and comment on my observation of groups in The Saga of Roland T. It's something I observed in the demo (v1.2) but others have suggested that they see similar things in the retail product.

[meowsqueak]

Originally posted by Scrith
I am also a game developer, and have been an engineer on games that have sold millions of copies, for the biggest game developer in the world...

Oh, you must have worked on Microsoft Windows. I hate that game - too much blue for my taste. The AI is patronising and wtf is up with the UI? I like the sound effect when something crashes though.

[Scrith]

Hopefully someone who works on the game will see this and get some ideas about the source of some of the problems people are having.

[furrycheeky]

I am amazed that such obvious problems as this were not found in the testing of the game. I have only just got the game, installed it and the peep group problems are obvious from about 10 minutes into playing the first level.

[madmab]

Thank you for your observations, it confirms the conclusion I was coming too. Your route was obviously alot more quick and direct.

[Scrith]

Bumping because I think some other people are spending time observing peeps in groups and coming to the same conclusions...

[Meeble]

Yes after reading this post I decided to observe 2 groups specifically for about 10-15 minutes and you're right the Group AI has some fundamental errors. I get the logic behind the overall view.... group leader can override some decisions in the parent type mentality, but currentl this seems to override everything the other peeps want and then the group leader fails to ever actually get them out of the park.... or in the park. Good catch.


and I don't think you're first post was harsh at all. I'm a developer and sometimes things are out of the devs hands and the people causing the showstoppers to appear ned to be educated.... nothing educates the suits more than yelling and loss of money I've found


fyi - I posted a couple group based bugs I've found over in the tech support forum:
http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums...hreadid=427313

[rcthelp]

After I installed the EU beta 1a patch, I wrote the The saga of John P, another example of peeps getting stuck.

I speculate that John P was getting stuck outside a Drinks Stall because both his hands were already full. Anybody care to comment?

[rondouglas]

Posted on this a while ago, and also posted a workaround. Note I say workaround, not solution...The solution is for the developers to fix the Group AI.

Workaround:

Go into custom peep editor. Create 6 groups, each with 1 person, something like:

Group 1 - Old Male
Group 2 - Old Female
Group 3 - Teen Male
Group 4 - Teen Female
Group 5 - Kid Male
Group 6 - Kid Female

Also, vary their excitement tolerance, so you have some of each type.

Now quit the game, go to the custom peeps folder in Windows. Copy the 6 files, then paste them like crazy (100 times) to give you 600 peeps.

Start the game. You now don't have to deal with Group AI with the first 600 people in your park. They'll ride whatever they want, eat/drink whatever they want, go the bathroom, rest, and leave whenever they want...


Also note, I've seen where a group of peeps will sit in one place, waiting there for hours because one of their members is off on the other side of the park. This is made worse by the bench bug, because that member might get stuck on the bench indefinately. Its as if the group set a "reference point" when they entered the park telling everyone "now if one of you gets lost, meet back here". If you notice a ton of peeps at the front of your park, see if all the members are there of each group. Most likely one will be missing, and often that missing one is sitting on a bench. Delete the bench, pick up the peep and place them by the group, and they'll continue onto the rest of the park.

[madmab]

Yeah I used the guest peep trick to create a bunch of peeps that prefer "gentle" rides. That way I could at least get some use out of the gentle rides.

[rcthelp]

I sent my saga of John P to Frontier as a bug report. I just got this reply.

Originally an email from rct3game@frontier.co.uk Subject: Re: EU BETA 1a update - peeps getting stuckHi,

thanks for the information, there is a related issue which should be addressed in the next update.

Many thanks

Michael