PETITION: NWN2: Removal of SecuROM

[polygon420]

I am writing in regards to the CD/DVD Authentication routines that will be appearing in Neverwinter Nights 2. CD Authentication is the verification of the presence of the original CD, which was implimented in the original Neverwinter Nights through the use of Sony's SecuROM. This is done in an attempt to deter "hacked", "duplicated", or "downloaded" copies of the game to be used.

I am urging you, from the community, for the community, to reconsider implimenting any form of CD Authentication in Neverwinter Nights 2.

Let us consider, that a commercial corporation would do well to not disrespect or be inconsiderate to their paying customers. Such courtesies will result in higher customer satisfaction, and therefore, ultimately more business and longevity. Let us now consider the matter of CD Authentication.

First and foremost, we must address the issue of the physical discs themselves. It's a known fact that CD's can get scratched, broken, or generally rendered useless, through the normal "wear and tear" of daily use. It is also a known fact, that in the case of Neverwinter Nights 1, the CD's were manufactured by the lowest and standards, which yielded lower production costs and quality, resulting in premature disc failure and physical deterioration of the disc (cracks along the inside ring).

Secondly, CD Authentication programs are not entirely bug-free (then again, what is...?). There have been numerous instances where people have reported being unable to play due to factors influenced by their hardware, software, and both.

The use of these authentication programs has become a hassle or inconvenience for the community. Regardless of whether there are physical or configuration problems interfering with the authentication software, many user will experience extended load times, have to disable programs, as well as an incresed frequency of disc swapping and storing.

(taken directly from NWN 2's documentation)
- Make sure you have Disc 1, also sometimes labeled as Play Disc, in a local CD/DVD drive. If you are uncertain as to which disc may be Disc 1 please check your game manual for details.

- Close all other running applications, especially things such as: Clean Sweep, anti-virus software, ZoneAlarm, and CD burning software (for example: Nero or EZ CD Creator).

- If you have more than one local CD/DVD drive, try all drives.

- If you have a Virtual CD Drive installed, make sure it is disabled.

- Make sure you wait for the disc authentication after the program launches. It can take up to one-half minute or more for initial disc authentication. Your mouse pointer may change into a spinning disc pointer while the disc is authenticating.

If you have tried all of the above and are still having trouble, please generate an analysis file for submission to the SecuROM Technical Support group so we may be of further assistance. The analysis file contains important information to help us analyze the program launch issues you are experiencing. After successfully creating the file, the necessary data will be exported and stored in an "AnalysisLog.sr0" file. Please perform the following steps:

In the event of a physical disc failure in the original Neverwinter Nights, the replacement discs from the manufacturer/publisher were subject to a purchase fee as well as a shipping and handling charge. There is also as issue of waiting for replacement disc to arrive.

Neverwinter Night 2, similarily to it's predecessor, is primarily an online game, requiring the use of an online account and a CD Key in order to play. There will be the "Official Campaign" and single player modes, which can be dealt with in a number of ways.

That is to say, that there are alternatives to disc authentication software; good alternatives at that. First of all, there is the option of leaving all authentication off for single player modes and/or the Official Campaign. This can be used for a demonstrative purpose, with the intention that anyone playing a copied/downloaded copy wouldn't have access to everything the game had to offer, and would therefore, be inclined to purchase the game.
Another alternative to physical verification is account verification, much like it was done with the "Premium Modules" in the original Neverwinter Nights. This would require the game to authenticate your CD-Key or Account through the internet once upon execution, regardless of whether or not Single-player or Multi-player is chosen.
Another variation to account verification would be "Software Activation" or leasing. This would be accomplished by requiring the user to activate the software within a pre-determined number of days (much like Windows XP activation). There can also be leases that must be renewed online at pre-determined intervals, such as during product updating (since you're connected to the internet anyways).
One argument against online verification is that people would need to be connected internet either everytime they loaded the game, when they installed/activate the game for the first time, or when their lease expires. Judging by the "System Requirements" for the game, it would be foolish to consider that someone would have a modern gaming computer (2.4 GHz or higher, as expressed in the NWN2 documentation) that was unable to connect to the internet at least once in it's lifetime. Therefore, it can be assumed that everyone that purchases Neverwinter Nights 2 will have access to the internet.

Concluding, Atari would do well for the community, their paying customers, by removing or disabling the SecuRom software for Neverwinter Nights 2. Be it through happier customers or increased sales, Atari would surely be gaining more than they're losing by removing SecuRom.

[Dakota Strider]

For the love of all that is holy, please do not include SecuROM on another one of your products. I legally purchased and registered Temple of Elemental Evil, and because of your "copyright protection" it prevented a legitimate user from playing the game. After jumping through hoops for days, I finally gave up on the game. And I have to admit that the customer service that I attempted to solicit was non-existant, as all the emails I posted on the ATARI tech support site were apparently ignored. Please do not add the SecuROM "feature" to NWN2. I am sure it will not deter any techno savvy miscreant that would pirate the game. However, it has proven to prevent your legitimate customers from using their legally purchased products.

[X900BattleApple]

How is it preventing legitimate customers from using the product exactly?

[malek3712]

It prevents legitimate customers from keeping backups of the product, something they should be allowed to do. It also forces legitimate customers to keep the CD/DVD in the drive, something I HATE having to do. Copy protections of various kinds are also known to cause problems with getting the game working on some drives, some are believed to even damage hardware (not securom I know) and frankly, they are extremely ineffective.

So ATARI is paying for nothing, paying to force many customers, including myself, to re-buy the game should our copy get damaged by dust or whatever else, and to use a disc that is by all purposes not necessary to play the game. And the purpose? There really isn't one, because it's all predicated on the lie that these copy protections actually work, which everyone knows is absolutely false. CD keys prevent illegitimate players from playing online, and they don't force the customer to do anything after the initial install. They are the only method of understandable protection, as they are direct, targetted, and have no negative aftereffects. Copy protections can actually make it where illegitimate players get better service and useability than people who bought the game, which is extremely, extremely, sad.

[X900BattleApple]

That's not the same as preventing a user from using the product. The gripe about the disc in the drive is valid, but it's just the way it is; it doesn't affect your ability to play. Taking care of discs will prevent them from becoming scratched and there are no drives which they don't work on, though if there were an email to tech support will resolve that issue and fix the problem.

Copy protection keeps honest people honest, and if you're one of the honest ones then it's the dishonest ones you should be mad at for forcing publishers (not just Atari) to resort to things like SecuROM. Some games aren't online, btw, so cd-keys can't be your only source of protection in those cases (RCT3, for example).

[dunniteowl]

Originally Posted by X900BattleApple

How is it preventing legitimate customers from using the product exactly?

Please see my posts in this thread for more details: Atari SecuROM Petition. I would also highly recommend, if you have the time, to research a little in the issues of piracy in the main. You will note that overall, piracy accounts for as much as 8-11% of total lost sales and this is nothing more than a "breezy" numbers out of a hat estimate. Thus it isn't really more than selling fear as statistics. Also, this number includes estimates of people who share with friends, copy disks to use for their own benefit and those who give their software away. These are all lumped in with the Organized Criminals who do this for a living.

Also, check out the cost of producing and maintaining copy protections such as SecureROM, StarForce and others, versus the overhead of having them just not be there. You will see that, while not exorbitant, there is a point crossed where the justification is pretty thin. There are other methods available that I mention in the above thread that are lower cost and have proven to be as, if not more, reliable than preventing your customer to make a back up of their legally purchased disks and use those to prevent damage to their investment.

Consider also the amount of people who will have and have already experienced sometimes severe problems using the protected disks in CD and DVD drives that are not compatible (for whatever reasons) with the protection, thus making the purchase effectively useless. I am sure that statistically this number is quite small on the whole, however it isn't something you want to do-- irritate your customer base over issues like this.

Consider the cost of overhead to fix such issues, deal with such issues and add those into the cost of the licensing and overhead for using such anti-copy practices. Again, it will start to look less like a good idea and more of one that we might call "diminishing returns."

Customers who get angry, even a few, can spread discontent and reduce sales. Even if some customers never experience a problem, hearing about a friend's cousin who knows a guy who's brother had this problem is the sort of stuff that can scare potential customers away. These angry customers can also sour other previously loyal customers, thus reducing overall longevity of sales and perhaps future sales of upcoming products.

None of this can easily be measured. However, if you study up a bit, you can start to see that someone has created a market in order to sell anti-copy practices and that this practice really doesn't do anything to stop or even slow down piracy (*even if you take the stats at face value, they remain relatively unchanged from before these methods to now) as far as the data shows. This basically proves that the methods, according to the metrics used to justify their use, do not justify their use.

dunniteowl

[Dakota Strider]

Originally Posted by X900BattleApple

How is it preventing legitimate customers from using the product exactly?

It kept me from using the product, because the game would not run because of the SecuROM "protection". I am not talking about a disk that was worn with use. It has no visible scratches or defects. I brought the game home from the retailer I bought it, installed it, registered it (with no problems what so ever), and then when I attempted to play it, the anti-privacy protection would not recognize the game in the dvd drive. My computer is only a couple years old, and had been updated to run Civ IV and Oblivian. So it was not the problem with equipment on my end.

After zero support from ATARI despite sending several emails through tech support, I found advice elsewhere. The only solution that I would not try, was the No CD cracks. I was tempted, but because of past spyware problems, I chose not to download from sites that did not seem very reputable.

So, once again, I am stating that your SecuROM programming kept me from playing a game I purchased legitimately.

[X900BattleApple]

I have studied up on it, in fact I'm well versed in the issue. However, the notion that removal of copy protection wont result in a profound increase in piracy is both unprovable and probably wrong. Again, it keeps the honest people honest just like a lock on your front door. If someone really wants in they'll get in. What the industry wants to prevent is enticing basic human nature (to want something for free) from disuading those like yourself from buying the product because there's absolutely no copy protection.

I don't like it either, and thankfully Atari uses SecuROM and not the horrible Starforce. But, it's something that has to be lived with in most cases. Obviously a game like WoW that is purely online can do away with protection in favor of rigorous cd-key verification and payment per month for the service. Most games aren't in this category and have a strong offline component or, as I said, no online component.

I wish we could go back to the days of daisy wheels and 'throw in's' that protected the game from illicit copying without necessarily technical solutions designed to lock down the code, but those days are long gone. In any case, the decision to purchase is always yours to make.

[jwburks]

If publishers would invest the time and money in lawsuits and prosecute these software pirates and give them what they deserve (fines and a prison sentence), I doubt other pirates would be taking the risk to continue. As it is, they just do whatever they want because they know they'll get away with it. Instead, the paying customer is made to suffer. If Atari thinks that software pirates can't crack SecuROM, then they are fooling themselves. Anything can be cracked; all it takes is time. And of course, the only sales that really count are the first few weeks, isn't that right?

[X900BattleApple]

Originally Posted by Dakota Strider

It kept me from using the product, because the game would not run because of the SecuROM "protection". I am not talking about a disk that was worn with use. It has no visible scratches or defects. I brought the game home from the retailer I bought it, installed it, registered it (with no problems what so ever), and then when I attempted to play it, the anti-privacy protection would not recognize the game in the dvd drive. My computer is only a couple years old, and had been updated to run Civ IV and Oblivian. So it was not the problem with equipment on my end.

After zero support from ATARI despite sending several emails through tech support, I found advice elsewhere. The only solution that I would not try, was the No CD cracks. I was tempted, but because of past spyware problems, I chose not to download from sites that did not seem very reputable.

So, once again, I am stating that your SecuROM programming kept me from playing a game I purchased legitimately.

Believe me when I say there can be temporary issues related to SecuROM and an email to Atari should get you setup and the disc recognized. I know this for a fact. Unfortunately Atari tech support can take some time, and of course check your spam folder to be sure replies didn't get filtered there. It's not Atari's SecuROM either; it's Sony's. And Sony will provide hot fixes for Atari, but they need to hear from you first to initiate an engineering solution for your particular game on your particular system.

[X900BattleApple]

Originally Posted by jwburks

If publishers would invest the time and money in lawsuits and prosecute these software pirates and give them what they deserve (fines and a prison sentence), I doubt other pirates would be taking the risk to continue.

This might be doable for EA, but not other publishers with little to no money in the bank. It would be very very expensive, as the recording industry found out. Even there the solution still involves protections of the media (songs in that case) via ITunes or whatever.

And of course, the only sales that really count are the first few weeks, isn't that right?

Not true. It's important, but it's not all the counts, especially during holidays.

[Dakota Strider]

Question for you BattleApple; why is it that you so strongly support measures that punish your customers by adding procedures that delay, inconvenience and frustrate them by putting up with measures that basically treat those that pay like criminals? Your comment about needing protection to keep all of us honest is the same having locks on doors keep people honest is actually offensive. The heart of the problem is that game companies find it easier to treat paying customers like criminals rather than take steps like prosecution which would actually deter real criminals. People that are going to copy the disks for criminal purposes have no problems with going a few extra steps require to fool your copy protection. All you have done is raised your prices by including "security measures" that annoy the people that are actually buying the games.

[WhiteKnight1]

It is best not to have a copy protection.

The two best games without copy protections are :-

1. Company of heroes by Relic Entertainment.
2. Galatic Civilzation :- The Dread Lords by StraDock.

Both the games sold very well. COH is still a best selling.

Even Warhammer 40,000 :- winter assualt has no copy protection.

It did not hurt any sales.

[polygon420]

Good to hear from ya, dunniteowl!

[malek3712]

Originally Posted by X900BattleApple

I have studied up on it, in fact I'm well versed in the issue. However, the notion that removal of copy protection wont result in a profound increase in piracy is both unprovable and probably wrong.

It's as unprovable as the assertion that copy protection reduces losses due to "piracy", which has hardly been proven unequivocally.

And I have never liked the "keeping honest people honest" concept. I certainly don't live that way. People I trust I have no problem leaving my wallet exposed around.

[X900BattleApple]

Originally Posted by Dakota Strider

Question for you BattleApple; why is it that you so strongly support measures that punish your customers by adding procedures that delay, inconvenience and frustrate them by putting up with measures that basically treat those that pay like criminals?

Perception is everything. It's a bit dishonest to blame the companies for your feelings about copy protection. A similar arguement could be made about security tags on clothing that you have to wait so the clerk can remove them and imply customers are criminals. Perception, my friend. If you wish to not recognize that there are criminals out there, well that's your decision.

Your comment about needing protection to keep all of us honest is the same having locks on doors keep people honest is actually offensive. The heart of the problem is that game companies find it easier to treat paying customers like criminals rather than take steps like prosecution which would actually deter real criminals. People that are going to copy the disks for criminal purposes have no problems with going a few extra steps require to fool your copy protection. All you have done is raised your prices by including "security measures" that annoy the people that are actually buying the games.

It's an old saying and very apt, actually. But you're exactly right, the criminals have to go a few extra steps and will. The honest people, who are not criminal by nature, will not. However, not having copy protection will cause those honest people to (in many cases) go ahead and illegally copy the game. It's human nature, sort of like finding a $20 on the ground. Most people will pick it up and put it in their pocket, I mean it was just lying there. Well, it wasn't protected and it's just one copy, right?

Also, video game prices in the 80's were about $59-$79. PC game prices right now are an average of $40-$50. I'm sure a couple bucks of the price is for copy protection and to cover the piracy that occurs regardless of protection, but if there's not protection I assure you the price wont drop to $20 a game. Dream on

[X900BattleApple]

Originally Posted by malek3712

And I have never liked the "keeping honest people honest" concept. I certainly don't live that way. People I trust I have no problem leaving my wallet exposed around.

And on a personal level that's great, I'm the same way. Sadly, a corporation cannot know your intentions as a consumer, they can only plan for what they know could be done as evidenced by piracy that does occur. When you're a company responsible for prividing a paycheck to your employees and product to your fans you do need to be sure you'll be around to make the next project those groups are either depending on or waiting for.

Also, Company of Heroes and Warhammer 40k are both RTS which, as a genre, are largely online games hence cd-keys are enough. Non-MMO RPG's like NWN2which will have hours and hours of single player content do need to protect themselves. even if you're a PW builder, there are a dozen others who buy the game for the offline story.

[TormDK]

This is the year 2006 people, why are we forced to having these things running in our drives when a simple yet effective tool is the very thing we use now to complain about this step. Think ahead Atari, and stop slowing down our games with this "security" feature, if you could even call it that.

Why not have words with your old buddies over at Bioware and adopt their premium mods usage idea? Rather than insist on your rather loyal player base be treated as criminals.

SecuROM only slows down the guy who went out and got his copy the proper way, the pirates will have it bagged and ready for Torrents before it's even in the shops. Regardless of what sort of "security" you put on it. It's working for EA, and Valve, wake up and smell the roses of 2006. It really is a brand new day.

There are other options, that are far better.

Best regards, a loyal fan owning many atari published titles.

[0100010]

Watch this video for some comellling arguments was this idea is bad in general. Although it speaks about DMR in regards to DVD movies and music and the like it is just as applicable to SecuROM and games in general as well.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...3Alift06&hl=en

[Woodlander]

Originally Posted by malek3712

It prevents legitimate customers from keeping backups of the product, something they should be allowed to do. It also forces legitimate customers to keep the CD/DVD in the drive, something I HATE having to do. Copy protections of various kinds are also known to cause problems with getting the game working on some drives, some are believed to even damage hardware (not securom I know) and frankly, they are extremely ineffective.

So ATARI is paying for nothing, paying to force many customers, including myself, to re-buy the game should our copy get damaged by dust or whatever else, and to use a disc that is by all purposes not necessary to play the game. And the purpose? There really isn't one, because it's all predicated on the lie that these copy protections actually work, which everyone knows is absolutely false. CD keys prevent illegitimate players from playing online, and they don't force the customer to do anything after the initial install. They are the only method of understandable protection, as they are direct, targetted, and have no negative aftereffects. Copy protections can actually make it where illegitimate players get better service and useability than people who bought the game, which is extremely, extremely, sad.

Not really, what it will do is put a red flag in front of some 14 y/o bull cracker that will consider this a challenge. It's the old addage that locks only keep the honest people out. Game execs need to understand by taking this approach you are shooting yourselves in the foot in the long run.

Not to mention if you have an older CD/DVD drive sometimes the CD/DVDs will not be recognized. I'm really glad someone brought this information forward though. Makes my decision making much easier.

[crystallace1]

So , Atari is going under the assumption that all are criminals untill proven honest . ? I bought a limited edition for *several* in my family in order for them all to play this game , but I am truely having second thoughts if I am considered dishonest before I even recieve the game. And in doing so If the CD's do not work I have no recourse ?.. Other then to beg ?

Very dissappointed indeed.

[RocketGib]

Originally Posted by X900BattleApple

Copy protection keeps honest people honest, and if you're one of the honest ones then it's the dishonest ones you should be mad at for forcing publishers (not just Atari) to resort to things like SecuROM. Some games aren't online, btw, so cd-keys can't be your only source of protection in those cases (RCT3, for example).

SPEAKING OF RCT3, that particular situation is a VERY GOOD example of WHY ATARI SHOULD STOP USING SECUROM!

I'll just give you a list of reasons:

• Increases wear-and-tear on CD and hardware
• Increases resources required to run game (sometimes causing "game lag")
• Violates the EULA -- "User has right to make a back-up copy for personal use"
• Decreases consumer demand for Atari products because of the known defects above
• Opens current game users up to hackers and exploits (SecuROM can be cracked by a 10 year old in less than a day)
• SecuROM + lack of Atari tech support = Death to Atari

Have I made my point?

[Dakota Strider]

Originally Posted by X900BattleApple

Perception is everything. It's a bit dishonest to blame the companies for your feelings about copy protection.

Who else am I to blame when the companies use copy protection methods that cause such feelings? I am not against companies protecting their investment and being paid for their work. And calling my feelings dishonest is just another example of how companies have been treating their paying customers like dirt.

A similar arguement could be made about security tags on clothing that you have to wait so the clerk can remove them and imply customers are criminals.

Not valid at all. When I take the clothing to the cashier and pay for the clothing, the tag is removed and the clothing is mine. I am NEVER inconvenienced by the merchant's theft protection device again. If I choose to let someone else borrow it, I am able. Anything I choose to do with that item I am able to, because IT BELONGS TO ME. However, when I buy a game from Atari, it feels it needs to encript a code that forces me to only use it on my computer with the internet turned on, so that Atari basically has control of my computer each time I choose to play it. Customer's should feel violated just for that reason, but most of us endured it without complaint, or probably because people did not know what was happening. And unlike the merchant's security tag, programs like SecurROM can malfunction and prevent the customer from using the product.

Perception, my friend. If you wish to not recognize that there are criminals out there, well that's your decision.

Trust me, I know their are criminals are out there. And I also know that by treating innocent people as if they are criminals, you are likely to turn some of them to crime, thus creating the behaviour you wanted to prevent. And the more I have researched this topic, the more I am starting to see companies that use invasive security devices that stay on product after they have been sold to a customer to be bigger criminals than the petty thieves they are trying to foil. Have you ever read the book "1984" or at least seen the movie? Does the term "Big Brother" mean anything to you? (and not the crappy MTV show). So instead of using invasive methods (which if not illegal are bordering on immoral) that trample on consumer rights, why not pursue and prosecute criminals? Trust me, every time you prosecute someone that is using pirated software, you will be preventing many more thefts than your user-unfriendly software does.

It's an old saying and very apt, actually. But you're exactly right, the criminals have to go a few extra steps and will. The honest people, who are not criminal by nature, will not. However, not having copy protection will cause those honest people to (in many cases) go ahead and illegally copy the game. It's human nature, sort of like finding a $20 on the ground. Most people will pick it up and put it in their pocket, I mean it was just lying there. Well, it wasn't protected and it's just one copy, right?

Once again, a bad comparison. Any person that finds money on the ground with nothing to identify who it belongs to will pick it up. However, an honest person that saw who dropped it, or has reason to know whose property it is would most likely take steps to return it to the proper owner. If this did not occur to you, well, you may have to consider your own honesty. An honest person that owns a game with no copy protection knows that it is dishonest and stealing to make copies to give to friends, let alone selling copies. That will stop them from doing what any reasonable person in this day and age knows is stealing. A dishonest person will encounter your copyright protection, then go to the internet and find a program that will defeat it and continue his dishonest behavior. Many even consider copyright protection a challenge, and go out of their way to defeat it as a way to thumb their noses at the company that dared to use it.

Also, video game prices in the 80's were about $59-$79. PC game prices right now are an average of $40-$50. I'm sure a couple bucks of the price is for copy protection and to cover the piracy that occurs regardless of protection, but if there's not protection I assure you the price wont drop to $20 a game.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I was not bring up the price of copyright protection to lower consumer prices. As someone who has been playing computer games since the 1980's I realize the value of computer games. However, as a businessman myself, I was looking out for your company's bottom line. Instead of wasting money on copyright protection that only alienates your customer base, why not put that money to something productive. Perhaps employee raises? Dividends to your stockholders? Develop new games? Prosecute hackers and pirates?

[X900BattleApple]

Originally Posted by crystallace1

And in doing so If the CD's do not work I have no recourse

As I said above, a contact with tech support will fix any issue that you may have with the CD's or DVD's, though it's extremely unlikely you will.

Dakota, copy protection isn't what has brought Atari to it's knees. If and when Atari is in better shape maybe they can look at other options. Right now, they don't really have the wearwithall to do anything else regarding copy protection.

[Woodlander]

Originally Posted by X900BattleApple

As I said above, a contact with tech support will fix any issue that you may have with the CD's or DVD's, though it's extremely unlikely you will.

You know there is another game I used to play that used SecurROM (last year). The game was fun but my CDROM drive just wouldn’t recognize the ''Play" CD. I did get the CD in an older computer to recognize the ''play'' CD but it wasn't the one I used on a daily basis. After many months of shipping back and forth (and cost out of my pocket), I never got a single one to work and gave up. Mind you I spent the cost of an entire game in shipping. It upset me, and now somehow, I just can't see myself making the same mistake again. Forgive my doubting nature but I don't believe dealing with Atari tech support will result in a fast turn around with little frustration.

Originally Posted by X900BattleApple

Dakota, copy protection isn't what has brought Atari to it's knees. If and when Atari is in better shape maybe they can look at other options. Right now, they don't really have the wherewithal to do anything else regarding copy protection.

How about a key code system like the original, and about 95% of the other games out there use. But at this point the game has most likely gone gold and some bureaucrat high in the Atari food chain has made this decision and we will all have to live with the consequences. Pity. Take some advice and leave this issue/post alone. It's a no win situation for all of us, you included.

[X900BattleApple]

Originally Posted by Woodlander

You know there is another game I used to play that used SecurROM (last year). The game was fun but my CDROM drive just wouldn’t recognize the ''Play" CD. I did get the CD in an older computer to recognize the ''play'' CD but it wasn't the one I used on a daily basis. After many months of shipping back and forth (and cost out of my pocket), I never got a single one to work and gave up. Mind you I spent the cost of an entire game in shipping. It upset me, and now somehow, I just can't see myself making the same mistake again. Forgive my doubting nature but I don't believe dealing with Atari tech support will result in a fast turn around with little frustration.

Speaking from experience, and to reiterate what I said before....contacting tech support will get you to the point of running the analysis tool, an engineering solution via Sony, and then a new .exe that wont be messed up. All this is done via email so there's not any shipping cost. I don't know what company you had your unfortunate experience with, and if it was Atari then that tech support person did not know the proper way to get a solution for "wont find disc" etc. type SecuROM issues.

How about a key code system like the original, and about 95% of the other games out there use. But at this point the game has most likely gone gold and some bureaucrat high in the Atari food chain has made this decision and we will all have to live with the consequences. Pity. Take some advice and leave this issue/post alone. It's a no win situation for all of us, you included.

As I said, this works for purely online or heavily focused (RTS, FPS) online games. For games with a strong offline component or that are purely offline the options for key codes don't work as well since anyone can get a key code generator and there's no server check to validate.

And please, don't presume to tell me where I can and can't post. If you don't like what I'm saying then don't reply and save everyone the grief.

[Woodlander]

Originally Posted by X900BattleApple

Speaking from experience, and to reiterate what I said before....contacting tech support will get you to the point of running the analysis tool, an engineering solution via Sony, and then a new .exe that wont be messed up. All this is done via email so there's not any shipping cost. I don't know what company you had your unfortunate experience with, and if it was Atari then that tech support person did not know the proper way to get a solution for "wont find disc" etc. type SecuROM issues.

And as I said my experiences were recent and relevant. I know no one save yourself (as an Atari pundit, nice avatar btw) that thinks SecuROM isn't one of the greatest plagues of the industry. And btw Sony is hardly the company to trust with putting .exe's in your computer (i.e. rootkits). No like I said I think I'll stay in the simple majority that doesn't trust the technology, Sony, or Atari tech support thanks.

Originally Posted by X900BattleApple

As I said, this works for purely online or heavily focused (RTS, FPS) online games. For games with a strong offline component or that are purely offline the options for key codes don't work as well since anyone can get a key code generator and there's no server check to validate.

And please, don't presume to tell me where I can and can't post. If you don't like what I'm saying then don't reply and save everyone the grief.

The system works with offline games as well. Actually premium content packs had to validate with a server before you could install them in NWN1. So this is just a poor solution all the way around. And if you took the time to read I offered some very good ADVICE, some which you obviously didn't take; another pity. Everyone is entitled to their opinion wrong or not.

Good post though Polygon, we're behind you albeit a little late...

In the event of a physical disc failure in the original Neverwinter Nights, the replacement discs from the manufacturer/publisher were subject to a purchase fee as well as a shipping and handling charge. There is also as issue of waiting for replacement disc to arrive.

[Dihir]

I'd like to propose an alternative to this petition.

Personally, I PREFER the dvd/cdrom verification mechanism over other verification mechanisms, such as online verification. Thus, I'd like to propose that if verification is required, that customers have the option of choosing between one of several verification methods -- perhaps an online method and a cd/dvd based method. (Not the NWN1 "verify on every load" method, but a "verify on program startup" method).

And I think verification will be required, probably at least for the next decade, given that (a) development costs at least a thousand million times more than distribution costs, and (b) some relatively well established network communities are focussed on illegal distribution of programs like this.

Anyways, I think that simply providing an alternative verification method would address the needs of most (not quite all) potential legit users who have problems with a verification method.

[White935]

I am Indeed Conserned about SecuROM,

i Installed Ground Controle II since it have SecuROM to check if everything worked fine on my 3 weeks old pc which is skipped right from the labs to me.

And i've played Ground Controle II on my former computer, but this time it insists its a emulator (ect a image of the orginal disc) however i am working with SecuROM tech support trying to solve this, so perhaps i relize whats wrong and can prepare for nwn 2 possible conflict with SecuROM and my brand new computer (annoying huh bought a hardware just for the game new strong one may i say and it aint working with the Copy protection). due note i might be something wrong with the cd, thought we'll see. i'd still hope that nwn 2 may possiblely have some sort of safenet should SecuROM cause conflicts for some of us costumers. to allow us to bypass suchs destressing matters. but then again i'll just wait and see, while i contiue to work on optimizeing and working on the computer until nwn 2's release.

[Fooka]

great. so even if I ran Windows, I have no optical drive in my game machine, so I'd be screwed anyway.

My optical drives are all shared over my home network to cut down on size and noise from my gaming box..

..so much for being able to play it on my setup..

don't lose your CDs people.