The Chronicles of Riddick: Assault on Dark Athena

[MajorHavoc]

OK guys, first I want to say thanks for being patient, now to get right to it.

There has been a lot of talk lately about DRM and how it was implemented in Riddick and there is a lot of misinformation being tossed around. I just wanted to get word out to you guys that we are listening to your concerns but I also wanted to let you know a few facts.

As of today only about 10% of all the Riddick PC games sold have been activated more than once.

One Riddick serial number alone had over 50,000 activation attempts, so people do try and pirate games.

Only four people have been unable to play on the PC due to DRM. In all cases the parties involved first tried to activate illegal serials. They were banned initially but then were manually unbanned when they purchased legal copies of the game.

DRM is not designed to keep you from playing the game, nor is it designed to combat any after market sales. After market sales for PC games are nowhere near what they are for console games anyway, aside from ebay, craigslist and yard sales I can’t even really think of anywhere to get used PC games.

I want to make it clear that there are people who are monitoring activations so if and when we get into an issue with people not being able to play that issue will be addressed. Should the case get so severe it effects a large portion of the gamers, more activations will be set in place as needed. Further down the line the DRM will be removed and a new unprotected exe will be released.

So to summarize if you buy Riddick legally on the PC we are going to do our best to make sure you can play it for as long as you want.
I hope this helps answer some of your questions / concerns.

[terroradagio]

Personally, I would like to see the activation limit upped to 5 times or allow a revoke tool and then, as you say, at one point remove the DRM. But not it take years to remove the DRM.

I do believe EA allows a 5 limit, plus a revoke tool. Doing it this way will still combat piracy, but let legal users have more freedom and less annoyance.

As I have stated many times, I have Riddick installed on my Win 7 BETA system and will be upgrading to RC when it comes out and then the final version of Win 7. So my 3 times will be up pretty quickly. And who knows what hardware upgrades I might do in between.

[thejtrain]

Thanks for getting back to us in a speedy timeframe, MajorHavoc - it's appreciated.

Originally Posted by MajorHavoc

As of today only about 10% of all the Riddick PC games sold have been activated more than once.

All due respect, but at this point in the game's lifecycle, that statistic is essentially meaningless. It's only been out for a week - for the most part people aren't worried about using up their three installs in a week, they're worried about using them up over time just due to normal hardware or OS upgrade cycles.

Originally Posted by MajorHavoc

DRM is not designed to keep you from playing the game, nor is it designed to combat any after market sales. After market sales for PC games are nowhere near what they are for console games anyway, aside from ebay, craigslist and yard sales I can’t even really think of anywhere to get used PC games.

Again, all due respect, but the magnitude of availability of secondhand sales has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it's right or proper to prevent them altogether (GameStop still sells them, though not as many, and you forgot Goozex & Half.com, just to name a couple more). Regardless of whether the activation-based DRM is designed to prevent secondhand sales as an end in itself, it surely is effective at doing so, and could be construed as a violation of the First-Sale Doctrine of consumer's rights (for a couple of recent court decisions affirming that doctrine, see Vernor v. Autodesk and UMG v. Augusto).

Originally Posted by MajorHavoc

I want to make it clear that there are people who are monitoring activations so if and when we get into an issue with people not being able to play that issue will be addressed. Should the case get so severe it effects a large portion of the gamers, more activations will be set in place as needed. Further down the line the DRM will be removed and a new unprotected exe will be released.

So to summarize if you buy Riddick legally on the PC we are going to do our best to make sure you can play it for as long as you want.

Your communication is certainly appreciated MajorHavoc, and at some point down the road when the activation-based DRM is fully removed, I may consider purchasing a copy then. But until then, activation-based DRM, regardless of all protests to the contrary by well-meaning publisher reps like yourself, essentially holds my ability to play a game I purchase hostage to the good graces of the publisher. If Atari is in a helpful mood, they'll let me play it. If they're not, they won't. It's as simple as that - they may be in a good mood now, as you're trying to reassure us that they are, but that's not guaranteed in perpetuity. It sounds harsh and perhaps a bit blue-sky/what-if, but that's what most of us are concerned with.

What might be more helpful as a constructive communication to your potential customers, would be a plainly-worded policy on what kind of parameters go into a "yes, here's another activation because you need it"/"no, we think you're a pirate so you don't get any more" decision on the part of the customer support folks who we'd theoretically be calling to ask for another activation, should we use up the 3 we're allotted. If I call for a fourth activation tomorrow, I imagine they'd probably say "yes". If I call for my 25th 6 months from now, what would they say? What assurances can you give us that Atari won't (on purpose or through an unfortunate economic situation) pull a Microsoft Music Store and pull the activation servers? Or pull a Microsoft Windows 98 and just unilaterally decide to stop supporting a product they've sold and was at the time still used by a significant portion of the market?

These are some of the concerns that law-abiding non-pirates like myself have about this kind of DRM, and I certainly hope you take it in the respectful but principled manner in which it's meant.

[Sblade]

Originally Posted by MajorHavoc

OK guys, first I want to say thanks for being patient, now to get right to it.

There has been a lot of talk lately about DRM and how it was implemented in Riddick and there is a lot of misinformation being tossed around. I just wanted to get word out to you guys that we are listening to your concerns but I also wanted to let you know a few facts.

As of today only about 10% of all the Riddick PC games sold have been activated more than once.

One Riddick serial number alone had over 50,000 activation attempts, so people do try and pirate games.

Only four people have been unable to play on the PC due to DRM. In all cases the parties involved first tried to activate illegal serials. They were banned initially but then were manually unbanned when they purchased legal copies of the game.

DRM is not designed to keep you from playing the game, nor is it designed to combat any after market sales. After market sales for PC games are nowhere near what they are for console games anyway, aside from ebay, craigslist and yard sales I can’t even really think of anywhere to get used PC games.

I want to make it clear that there are people who are monitoring activations so if and when we get into an issue with people not being able to play that issue will be addressed. Should the case get so severe it effects a large portion of the gamers, more activations will be set in place as needed. Further down the line the DRM will be removed and a new unprotected exe will be released.

So to summarize if you buy Riddick legally on the PC we are going to do our best to make sure you can play it for as long as you want.
I hope this helps answer some of your questions / concerns.

That´s a good start, and will become better if all your worlds turn into facts into due time.

Now I´ll ask you why NWN 2 has Securom DRM around 4 years and it still hasn´t been removed yet. Specially module builders who run/exit the game are still suffering this issue.


Ok, hope it starts with Riddick DRM being removed later

[Killuminati91]

if i get it right youre planning to remove DRM in a few months / years?
sorry i dont really understand that sentence.

If thats actually true ill have to wait until then and who knows if im still interested in the game at that time?
Its hilarious how you are hurting youself, but its not my concern all I can currently do is shake my head.

I appreciate the communication though

[Ominous Gamer]

Originally Posted by MajorHavoc

DRM is not designed to keep you from playing the game, nor is it designed to combat any after market sales.

Bullcrap

Further down the line the DRM will be removed and a new unprotected exe will be released.

Really? Cause the 2 year old Test Drive Unlimited community is still waiting for Atari to own up and get rid of the DRM, which as the forums show, is effecting more and more people every day. As the PR and final product and support for TDU and NWN2 show, Atari isn't really a company worth trusting when it comes to extended support.

[DAntiVirus]

Ok, fine about the DRM...now how about the tech issues we are having? I've posted numerous times about the eyeshine issue I am having (as well as others). We're told to contact Atari tech support but yet when we do, we're put on hold for over 1/2 hour as they 'research' the issue and never get back to you.

Sure, there's been a patch on two MP issues and a fan issue that a couple posted about a few days ago. What about those of us with issues since day 1? Why are we being ignored. Also why isn't the PC bonus content still not up? PS3 and 360's been there since launch day. Yet PC owners are just ignored.

[Zeblade]

Well it kinda keeps your from playing. Its like this. I bought the game 2 days ago. Got 2 boys duh they wanted it... I thought kool 3 times to reg .. well I cant play more than 15 the game crashes. I would love to try Windows 7 or Vista 32. I have both installed on my system. Now if it was like 5-10 then I would not be here talking now. Thank you ATARI.. yes last time I do this. Next time I just wait.

Yet I am thinking its the game. I put in ATI lol 10-15 crash. See its not true you can install as much as you like on ONE PC. I have 4 OP systems on mine .. can I instal as much as I like??? lol didnt think so os it a lie. If they could look at what IP it was coming from. Then I could.. Gee I bet a patch is due any day huh..

[Mithan]

Originally Posted by MajorHavoc

OK guys, first I want to say thanks for being patient, now to get right to it.

There has been a lot of talk lately about DRM and how it was implemented in Riddick and there is a lot of misinformation being tossed around. I just wanted to get word out to you guys that we are listening to your concerns but I also wanted to let you know a few facts.

As of today only about 10% of all the Riddick PC games sold have been activated more than once.

One Riddick serial number alone had over 50,000 activation attempts, so people do try and pirate games.

Only four people have been unable to play on the PC due to DRM. In all cases the parties involved first tried to activate illegal serials. They were banned initially but then were manually unbanned when they purchased legal copies of the game.

DRM is not designed to keep you from playing the game, nor is it designed to combat any after market sales. After market sales for PC games are nowhere near what they are for console games anyway, aside from ebay, craigslist and yard sales I can’t even really think of anywhere to get used PC games.

I want to make it clear that there are people who are monitoring activations so if and when we get into an issue with people not being able to play that issue will be addressed. Should the case get so severe it effects a large portion of the gamers, more activations will be set in place as needed. Further down the line the DRM will be removed and a new unprotected exe will be released.

So to summarize if you buy Riddick legally on the PC we are going to do our best to make sure you can play it for as long as you want.
I hope this helps answer some of your questions / concerns.

Here is the problem:
-I will install this once on my system, play through it and then uninstall it.

-My brother, who is sitting right behind me will install it after I am done with it, play through it and uninstall it.

-6 months from now I will want to play through it again and install it and then uninstall it.

And then next year when I go play it again, I will be out of "installs" and unable to play unless I call you guys up to get it installed.

Years down the road, this will happen to me again and again, for a product I payed for.

What really sucks about this is that I will have payed for the game and gone through this grief, while some "idiot" who pirates it, will get to enjoy the game through the years, without any problems at all.

Now, no doubt I will be able to find a crack to break the DRM, but why should I have to do that for something I legally bought?



I realize piracy is an issue, I really do. I also am quite aware of the fact that you guys need to sell as many games as possible to be able to stay in business and finance future games.

However, pissing me off (the customer who bought your game) isn't going to help you very much.


My advice to you guys is this:
-Release a Steam version that phones home through STEAM in order to work, regardless of the installs.
OR
-Release a Revoke Tool

OR Do both of the above, like most other companies have been doing.



There are better ways to do it than this.

[D(O)(O)M]

Thanks for Posting,
I Already Used Two Activations for my two PCs,
but one doesnt run it as good as needed to play,
Mouse lag, so I will reformat it and will be up to three
in one Day!


I hope we get a couple installs added in a couple of weeks and
then one day eventually removed it all Together.

I think the DRM saved 55,000 people from illegally playing the game this week with same key is good news for U guys though.

Next game, if i was in Charge, I would move it to Steam DRM.

[Killuminati91]

Originally Posted by D(O)(O)M

I think the DRM saved 55,000 people from illegally playing the game this week with same key is good news for U guys though.

thats the problem. next week the crack will be probably out and then?
where are your saves then atari?

[GreenieGenie]

To start, I appreciate that someone from — or representing — Atari is telling us more and trying to address issues.

Originally Posted by MajorHavoc

As of today only about 10% of all the Riddick PC games sold have been activated more than once.

Wow, that's in only a week of release! Sorry, but I discard that fact as it will be a different story in six months or thereafter. EA actually put out figures and numbers similar to this which meant nothing after only two weeks of release for Spore:

Total activations: 437138
Users activating on only 1 machine: 86%
Users activating on more than 1 machine: 14%
User trying to activate on more than 3 machines: 0.4%

If you try and think what figures like these will be now for Riddick, with there being no revoke tools or higher activation limits, then you would see higher numbers of people activating on more than 'one' PC.

Originally Posted by MajorHavoc

One Riddick serial number alone had over 50,000 activation attempts, so people do try and pirate games.

These are pathetic pirates who didn't download a fully-cracked copy. For all we know. However, the pirates who have cracked the copy won't be on yours or TAGES' radar, as they won't have online authentication to deal with.

Originally Posted by MajorHavoc

DRM is not designed to keep you from playing the game, nor is it designed to combat any after market sales. After market sales for PC games are nowhere near what they are for console games anyway, aside from ebay, craigslist and yard sales I can’t even really think of anywhere to get used PC games.

So maybe it isn't designed to stop people playing the game or combat used-game sales, but it does a good job at combating both of those points regardless! Atari CEO, David Gardner, a year ago, said he finds used-game sales 'extremely painful', so I doubt he would not do anything about it. DRM also can stop people from playing their games: blacklists for legitimate programs (we've seen it all before); authentication servers coming down; companies going bust.

Originally Posted by MajorHavoc

I want to make it clear that there are people who are monitoring activations so if and when we get into an issue with people not being able to play that issue will be addressed. Should the case get so severe it effects a large portion of the gamers, more activations will be set in place as needed. Further down the line the DRM will be removed and a new unprotected exe will be released.

That's if the customer finds out properly how to get to these people. EA did things for Spore on a 'case-by-case basis' so they could easily just turn you down... is Atari going to do the same? I really doubt the people will accept every person who calls. Anyway, it's a pain even bothering to get new activations. The customer spends far more trouble and strife dealing with DRM than most pirates (who just download working illegal copies). Unprotected EXEs:how far down the line will that be? Most of Atari's games protected with SecuROM 7 don't have official patches to remove the protection. Why not do something about those too? Otherwise I'll barely anticipate a patch that removes the protection in Dark Athena in many years, and I don't think is acceptable.

[jjim12]

Originally Posted by MajorHavoc

As of today only about 10% of all the Riddick PC games sold have been activated more than once.

One Riddick serial number alone had over 50,000 activation attempts, so people do try and pirate games.

I agree with thejtrain - giving this "10% activated more than once statistic in the first week", is insulting to everyone here - Most people obviously will only use 1 install in 1-7days of purchase ( they're largely afraid to use them up and then be questioned by you if they want more).
50 000 attempts on 1 pirate serial no. is not suprisng - but I think you are kidding yourself if you think you have saved 50 000 sales - Most pirates would not buy the game anyway.
Like many others I have 2 OS on my PC - I also have a second PC for trying out games. So if I was to buy the game I would use all 3 activations immediately and need another one very soon after.
You are distributing the game and you have the power to decide what rules you place on DRM .
3 Installs is way to few and I will not be buying the game on this basis. Many Many other people share the same view. For every 1 person that raises the issue here - hundreds more don't even waste their time registering at this forum. They express it all over the internet though.
It's your choice - either lighten up or remove the DRM or most people will either wait for a pirated Crack or official DRM removal.

[perkyporcupine]

With the greatest of respect Major Havoc I think previous posters have summed up the situation perfectly.

As for you assuring us Atari will make sure everyone who's paid for the game can play it - why then after I bought NWN2 on release day am I still waiting for help to play it because SecuRom stopped me. Atari and SecuRom didn't want to know.

I've yet to legally be able to play a game (NWN2) I purchased several years ago - thank God for pirates as they're the only way I got to play what I paid for. That also stopped me being a repeat customer as I would have been guaranteed to buy the expansions, but what's the point when DRM stops me playing them.

Atari don't respond to customer service enquiries (I'm far from alone in this experience) so why would people be assured that Atari will help them after they have the customers money. Mine, and a very large number of other customer experiences (if you check the Securom thread on the NWN2 forum and the many posts I've seen over at Bioware forums about this issue), has been that Atari do not offer any help when problems with SecuRom are met. And as Sblade pointed out - why would people believe Atari about removing it after a certain length of time - it's still there on NWN2.

You say it's to combat piracy? How do you figure that? Spore had a very similar DRM scheme and was the most pirated game ever - it's like a red rag to a bull for those who pirate. Also you're only pissing off your paying customers who'll review your games on every commercial site out there, again just like Spore. I haven't checked yet, but I can bet my house that your game is filled with 1 star reviews at Amazon - and quite rightly.

Truthfully in my opinion, by implementing schemes like this you're as bad as the pirates. The evidence is clearly out there that the only people DRM stops playing games is those who've paid for them, yet publishers still implement it. They're taking money for something they know many users will run into problems with and to me that's theft and just as bad as anything the pirates are doing.

[thejtrain]

Originally Posted by jjim12

50 000 attempts on 1 pirate serial no. is not suprisng - but I think you are kidding yourself if you think you have saved 50 000 sales - Most pirates would not buy the game anyway.

Great point jjim12. I had forgotten about this analysis by Reflexive's director of marketing, which reached a conclusion that by increasing DRM on a title in order to thwart piracy had this measurable effect: for every 1000 pirated copies prevented, 1 additional sale was created.

1 "lost sale" out of 1000 pirated copies.

Assuming that of those 50,000 attempts, it stands to reason that each individual pirate would have most likely tried to activate his pirated copy at least twice (if not more, the brute force "try it 'till it works" method), then at the most conservative, those 50,000 represented no more than 25,000 individuals (and very likely far fewer). So if the extrapolation holds (and I'd be open to arguments saying it wouldn't, but I think those arguments would mostly be conjecture & speculation on the differences between casual-game pirates and hardcore-game pirates), then for that set of individuals there were a maximum of 25 "lost sales" due to piracy (and likely even fewer). I think it's clear that total would have been easily surpassed by "gained sales" if Riddick had no invasive DRM just based on posts here and Amazon reviews.

[kalniel]

I don't think he made any points about lost sales.

But I think if you're willing to say that not everyone that pirates the game would have bought it without DRM, then it's at least as likely that people who say they aren't buying the game because of DRM still wouldn't have bought it if it didn't have DRM.

[Ominous Gamer]

Originally Posted by Killuminati91

thats the problem. next week the crack will be probably out and then?
where are your saves then atari?

crack has been out since launch day. The failed activations don't mean 50,000 users were locked out from playing

[thejtrain]

Originally Posted by kalniel

But I think if you're willing to say that not everyone that pirates the game would have bought it without DRM, then it's at least as likely that people who say they aren't buying the game because of DRM still wouldn't have bought it if it didn't have DRM.

As I mentioned in the other thread, it's nearly impossible to get hard numbers on either one of those (lost sales due to piracy, lost sales due to DRM), so in the end you're left with two things to consider:
1) believing (or not) what people say, or believing that they're lying. Who, in your opinion, is more trustworthy, the pirate who may or may not say that he'd buy the game if there were no DRM, or the non-pirate who usually does say that he'd buy the game if it didn't have DRM?

2) price as a method of regulating supply & demand (all else remaining equal). When a price goes down, demand goes up. At a price of "free", demand is at the highest point it will ever be. As the "free" price point is removed and the price rises to some other level, demand (which, as you hopefully know, is the measure of people willing to buy that that given price) will inevitably go down. Therefore, it stands to reason that a significant portion of those 50,000 who were willing to "buy" at the "free" price point are simply unwilling to buy at any other price point. Ergo, some significant portion of those 50,000 pirates are by definition NOT "lost sales".

Price is also a major factor with the "unwilling to buy because of the DRM" folks as well, don't think it's not. Some of the folks unwilling to spend $50 on a 3-activation game might think differently about spending $25 on the same game with the same DRM; an even greater number may think differently about spending $10 on the same game with the same DRM (which is where we start getting into the realm of "the price of a rental" which is what lots of us feel the activation limits make these games into). It's a value proposition, informed by principles of consumer rights as measured by the value received by the consumer.

Bottom line is, decisions are going to be made one way or another - what's important to understand is the rationale & underlying data that's informing those decisions, and whether the data is reliable and the rationale in the realm of reasonably believable.

[capable heart]

Sorry but no revoke tool is an unprofessional, genuinely suspicious, BS move. I may not agree with online activating, but I can see that it's the way things are going.

There is literally no reason not to have a revoke tool, since the limited online activation feature would still work 100% just as intended. Without a revoke tool, there is no way to claim that this DRM method is not directly meant to sabotage second-hand sales.

No piracy is done by sharing legitimate keys. They either crack the protection totally and never go "online" with the game in the first place, or use a fake CD key and get caught by the online feature.

However, normal customers have legit CD keys and there is absolutely no conceivable reason why the owner of a legit CD key should not have a deauthorization tool to use as many times as necessary. They have a legit CD key that would get verified online by using the revoke tool, so why the heck not let them have one?

Spin that you scam artists.

[headkase]

Originally Posted by MajorHavoc

...One Riddick serial number alone had over 50,000 activation attempts, so people do try and pirate games...

...Further down the line the DRM will be removed and a new unprotected exe will be released...

...So to summarize if you buy Riddick legally on the PC we are going to do our best to make sure you can play it for as long as you want...

Thank you for taking the time to address these issues. First of all, congratulations, there is still no crack for all the pirates - you have successfully prevented piracy. The first patch was out before any crack so the pirate groups have to start all over! Tages was an excellent choice for the DRM. Coming to sales hopefully there is a lesson to be learned here. When the unprotected exe is released (as part of a normal patch I would presume) then the issues surrounding the choice of Tages will largely evaporate. For the future the public relations department at Atari should do a better job. This should have been up-front. If from the beginning Atari had stated that the DRM would initially be draconian to arrest the 0-day piracy but once that period passed would be changed to facilitate actual customer satisfaction then this entire fiasco could have been lessened or avoided altogether. The Amazon bombing didn't have to happen. I think Riddick: AoDA is a great game and its sad that the game itself is overshadowed by what in the end constitutes political issues. So, treat your customers like customers and if initially you lock your product completely down that is acceptable as well, as long as you are clear up-front in your plans to eventually provide the permanence that customers desire with their purchases.

Thank you for reading.

[Killuminati91]

Originally Posted by headkase

Thank you for taking the time to address these issues. First of all, congratulations, there is still no crack for all the pirates - you have successfully prevented piracy.

- the game is not even out in most parts of the world
- pirates wont be able to play mp so the patch does not play a big role

[headkase]

Originally Posted by Killuminati91

- the game is not even out in most parts of the world

The Internet knows no bounds! European pirates would be using the North American version if it was cracked!

Originally Posted by Killuminati91

- pirates wont be able to play mp so the patch does not play a big role

I'm sure other bugs will be fixed in future patches and 1.01 already resolves one single-player crash bug in the Dark Athena campaign.

The rationale for the activation system was to prevent 0-day warezing and in that respect it has fully succeeded. Once a pirate group does manage to crack it then hopefully Atari will see the light and put their customers on even-footing with the pirates - removing the protection.

[Ominous Gamer]

I don't know where you're looking headkase...but TPB claims there are, and have been, noDVD cracks since day 1...

[headkase]

Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

I don't know where you're looking headkase...but TPB claims there are, and have been, noDVD cracks since day 1...

I've been checking The Pirate Bay everyday and a few trojan/virus fakes have been posted and one group (GOW) released a serial (which was probably the 50000 activation attempts one) and to date NO-ONE has circumvented the protection. There is no crack. Yet. But once there is one then us the paying customers should be on equal footing with the pirates - no DRM.

[Sblade]

Both right and both wrong. There is a 50% crack on day 1. But it seems this crack sucks.

Yep Tages protection protecs better than UNSecureRom ROFL

[headkase]

Originally Posted by Sblade

Both right and both wrong. There is a 50% crack on day 1. But it seems this crack sucks.

Yep Tages protection protecs better than UNSecureRom ROFL

The "50%" crack consisted of renaming (the torrent contained a renamed Tages file) a file and then it "wouldn't prompt" for a key but still wouldn't run. The poster of that one was ridiculed. So far there has not been a crack that lets anyone play. The only way to play right now is to buy AoDA. I'm glad I did, I've never even played EfBB before so I'm almost done that one (I think) and then I'll move on to AoDA.

[Ominous Gamer]

I can view the crack process threads now that I'm home. Websence blocks that crap while I'm at work.

But if TDU and NWN2 give us any hint, Atari won't be removing the DRM any time after the pirates win.

[Retorrent]

Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

crack has been out since launch day. The failed activations don't mean 50,000 users were locked out from playing

actually your wrong there is no crack for this game as of right now only a torrent of the game someone can download but as of this typing no crack has been made of this game

[Ominous Gamer]

thats already been determined, but thanks

[terroradagio]

Originally Posted by Retorrent

actually your wrong there is no crack for this game as of right now only a torrent of the game someone can download but as of this typing no crack has been made of this game

Yet.