Third expansion pack?

Kunikos · 07-08-2009, 12:37 PM

Is it possible that there will be a third expansion pack made for NWN2? I heard that sales of SoZ were pretty good, and I'll bet MoW has sold decently (considering how long it took to come out). If a third expansion pack comes out they should throw MoW in with the new NWN2 Platinum pack so it is on disc and remove the DRM completely eventually to help support the custom content community (encrypted files mean you can't view their module trigger scripts and incorporate them into overrides).

jonnin · 07-09-2009, 04:53 PM

third? Its already on 4 or so? Mask, MOW, SOZ are 3, and I thought there was one more in there. I suspect the next one will be a new engine, this one is years old, so look for nwn3 before you look for additional feed to the old engine. (this is purely a guess).

kalniel · 07-10-2009, 07:25 AM

MoW is not an expansion pack.

I'd love there to be a third expansion pack, but more adventure packs like MoW would be welcome too.

nicethugbert · 07-12-2009, 02:48 PM

+1 to expansion pack, with level cap raise and KC continuation muahahaha

PainEternal · 07-13-2009, 04:16 PM

Please give us another expansion.

Each patch is making the game better, and it's really gotten to be quite polished. Definitely i know i will be in line, and quite a few other folks i know will also look forward to another expansion.

The biggest issue with the game is most people who are into D&D have not heard about it, this is something that people are surprised about when i explain and show them what this game is capable of. Make a new expansion, get it on the shelves, or online and really market it to death.

We've got a vibrant community, many varied persistent worlds, lots of folks DMing, and lot's of single player modules, and even single player campaigns as big as a full expansion. Lots of life left in this game and hopefully Atari realizes it can be worth the investment. I really don't think the full potential of this game has even been touched yet.

Drakkon · 07-13-2009, 09:03 PM

I agree, another expansion for this game would be great!

dunniteowl · 07-13-2009, 09:45 PM

Although I am unhappy with the SecureROM issues and think it's a poor way to conduct a business model, I would still like to post my support for an NX3.

I like NWN2. It's not perfect, but it's better than anything else out there in order for me to attempt to bring my PnP stories to a computer near you. I think a 3rd expansion (*and as many Adventure Packs, a la Mysteries of Westgate as you can manage, please) would be an opportunity to promote this game the way it should have been from the first.

You have a license to exclusively produce computer related D&D products and yet, it seems, you fail to even send a shout out to the WotC forums to let them know there is another way to enjoy D&D. Weird.

I would be very supportive of an NX3 and an NX4 and I would definitely buy them as long as more content, more assets, improvements to the base code and the toolset functions, and a decent to really good story (read, a module most call a game) came along with it.

And, please, bear in mind, you get back what you put into it. I know funding tends to drop off with each Expan$ion Pack, but if you were to add a little extra funding for the next one and budget more for advertising, then get the word out. I'm sure you'd have a ready market.

There are so few choices for RPGs that really are RPGish, and you're the only game in town for D&D cRPGs. You should respect your core audience and cater to it, as well as do your best to induce others to get interested.

Remember, you get back what you put into it.

From my perspective, in today's market and economy, banking on a franchise you've already got with a known and quantifiable hit, adding to it would be a much lower risk model than putting out something new.

It's working for the Sims, Empire: Total War, and others. It could work for you too. I know I'd buy it if it came out and I know that many others would as well.

best regards,
dunniteowl

Angelis Dania · 07-14-2009, 01:24 AM

Please don't quit on NWN2 now. It's just starting to get somewhere. Do the unexpected and push some proper funding into a new expansion, and make it a major one, (i.e. pull out all the stops). The domino effects of this strategy will earn you such a community following as to make people buy your games based only on the fact that you are the publisher.

Show us that this game means something to you.

Lazarus Magni · 07-14-2009, 01:37 PM

I too would definitely like to see another expansion. I would hope that it would include a raise in the level cap, corresponding epic character progression, something to make joining multiplayer games more user friendly, new content, bug fixes, and a whole host of other stuff to secure the NWN2 legacy and long term viability similar to NWN1. Here are a couple of links discussing similar topics from the bioware boards.

http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums...4038&forum=109

http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums...5196&forum=109

kungfoowiz · 07-14-2009, 03:51 PM

I would like to see some more music in the next expansion, and I would positively love to see some more placeables for the game. I don't think we could ever have enough placeables. For example, I'd like some more dungeon-styled placeables, and more fantasy-themed town and city elements. I found the ones in the original game for example, they looked far too urbanite for my tastes. Some more fantasy and elven ones though would go down very well with me.

Well, here's to the next expansion then. I'm certainly looking forward to what you folks decide upon.

Thank you.
Edward

Kunikos · 07-14-2009, 05:44 PM

Give me another MotB but different and I'll be a happy camper:

1) Goes to epic levels
2) Great storytelling
3) Great options for evil characters

SoZ wasn't that great because the storytelling I think suffered without strong NPCs.

So, yeah, more like Torment and less like Icewind Dale.

WebShaman · 07-15-2009, 05:20 AM

This is a post in opposition to a NWN2 X3.

I will not buy it or support it at all.

Time to let NWN2 die as it is doing now. Best to bury it and get on with things IMHO.

Sblade · 07-19-2009, 12:39 PM

I agree with Webshaman. After seeing last NWN 2 patch. Let NWN 2 to bury and die. And remove Securom at last and show some decency

Drakkon · 07-20-2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sblade

I agree with Webshaman. After seeing last NWN 2 patch. Let NWN 2 to bury and die. And remove Securom at last and show some decency

I do not understand this comment here. The last patch offers features that the nwn community has been asking for sense the beginning of nwn1, and when we finally get features that has the potential to move the multiplayer side of the game forward great lengths its time to quit?

Kunikos · 07-20-2009, 01:09 PM

I don't get it. You want them to stop making expansions but then support it by making code changes to remove SecuROM? What makes you think they would do any more patches if there are no more planned adventure packs or expansions? Also, there have been zero officially announced D&D products (either 3.5E or 4E) so this is all that fans have at the moment aside from MMO type stuff like D&D Online (which is going free).

Sblade · 07-20-2009, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakkon

I do not understand this comment here. The last patch offers features that the nwn community has been asking for sense the beginning of nwn1, and when we finally get features that has the potential to move the multiplayer side of the game forward great lengths its time to quit?

Drakkon@ Please read my article at ReclaimYourGame.

New features yes, and New Securom too

http://www.reclaimyourgame.com

AstralWanderer · 07-20-2009, 09:46 PM

I'd vote for a new expansion also - though if Atari retains SecuROM (or any similar media check) then I will hold off purchase until a no-cd patch becomes available.

There is a lot that can be added (and fixed...) to the game engine and adding an adventure that wraps up the OC/MotB campaign would be a good way to close the series.

Including MoW as an option would be a good idea in gaining sales from those (like myself) who boycott any software requiring online activation.

WebShaman · 07-21-2009, 03:51 AM

Quote:

The last patch offers features that the nwn community has been asking for sense the beginning of nwn1, and when we finally get features that has the potential to move the multiplayer side of the game forward great lengths its time to quit?

Except that due to the long amount of time it has taken there is no MP playerbase to speak of to offer these features to.

Much too late.

It is like beating a dead horse in the hopes that it will somehow get up and cross the finish line. It ain't gonna happen. The race has been run, it's over, time to move on.

NWN2 failed.

Drakkon · 07-21-2009, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WebShaman

Except that due to the long amount of time it has taken there is no MP playerbase to speak of to offer these features to.

Much too late.

It is like beating a dead horse in the hopes that it will somehow get up and cross the finish line. It ain't gonna happen. The race has been run, it's over, time to move on.

NWN2 failed.

And here I didn't realize that the people I played with online where not real...Its really shame honestly, because now I am concerned about my sanity and will have to see a DR. Because I have held full conversations with these fake people...

WebShaman · 07-22-2009, 03:42 AM

Oh yeah, 150+ online players is really a thriving MP Playerbase

Get real.

kungfoowiz · 07-22-2009, 07:10 AM

Why spoil the fun for everyone else?

I would definitely like to see another expansion pack with some more goodies in it.

The new game isn't perfect, nor was Neverwinter Nights 1, but the game has been getting better with each expansion.

Here's a proposition, if the Atari company wouldn't like to produce the next expansion pack for Neverwinter Nights 2, then perhaps some custom content designers could form a team (Rogue Dao Studios for example) and produce a community expansion.

This would be similar to Mysteries of Westgate, although a step further in terms of production.
It would also be an interesting prospect for aspiring game designers, as well as developers (scripters), to get a taste of how the game industry works.

What do you think?

WebShaman · 07-22-2009, 11:09 AM

This is not "spoiling" the fun for everyone else - on the contrary. Atari has limited resources to spend. I would rather that they spend them on something that has more value to more players, than an XP for a barely alive game. Even though I am not a fan of 4e, I know that there are those who are. Perhaps plans for a NWN3 or something similar should be made to produce such a game, instead of wasting precious resources on an XP for a game that hardly anyone is playing. What would be really nice is to see Atari spend the bucks to get rid of DRM on all their products (or at least SecuRom) and stay that way. That would be well spent resources IMHO.

PainEternal · 07-27-2009, 05:59 AM

How about you get real. I see your statements as adding nothing, but rather just getting in the way, with some desire to block this bird in the hand and making it no more, in some idea that you can get more with those birds in the bush. The grass is not greener in the next yard, the grass is only green when you water it and make it grow.

What is your motive, is it Atari's success, or the failure of this game. Really after NWN2 has run it's course, that which replaces it will be a lot more like quite a few other games. I strongly disagree this games course has run out, in fact i propose it is just getting started. What is your agenda, when folks wish to only bring things down it can be of no good. Are you in the kill it so you can play it without any DRM, and it's all about removing a CD check. Or is it in the camp of NWN2 is a threat to NWN1. Or do you just see any request or idea worthy of shooting down just to be a naysayer. There are so many nutty agendas, and all i have to say is i just want to keep getting new stuff, and i want to get things i and my playerbase wants to buy.

You seem blind to the fact that the game has just changed, and we now have something which never was possible in NWN1. We can actually make our own worlds, with our own content. Things like this new area i am developing called Oceania http://www.flickr.com/photos/4009786...7620802156907/ wherein the magic actually works like it is underwater, you have to hold your breath and you will drown -- all of this following the rules in the DMG. And that spear is actually a custom spell called eldritch glaive by Kaedrin. I am just one of many who use this game for that toolset, and a new game by all accounts will not have that as a MMO.

As for the PW Numbers, the only servers up yet with the new update are the ones who were in the beta. I know our server had no marketing at all and i had 50 new players in a single week ( and i know this since i can see a folder for each player and the character they made ), all of which played longer than an hour. I wonder how well i will do with an actual website, or when i contact my old player base.

It's not time to count, or rather you pick the time to count now before we've seen the effects of making PW's work the way they should. I can say for a fact that i had 5 players on my server within a few hours of being up before i even had everything working. From my knowlege the number of servers that have 1.23 AND the downloader i can count on my hand.

Just let that replicate across every server.

NWN2 is having issues because it never was able to fulfill it's potential. They decided to not even make it level 40 like NWN1 was which if you are an action type ( and most in NWN2 are not ) it makes it seem less of an upgrade and more of a downgrade.

Cryptic and DDO and WoW, all great games, but they are not my campaign, they are not my story, and run by my DM's. This game happens to have captured, both with NWN1 and NWN2 the spirit of what D&D is, and that is something which those who love D&D have no idea about. D&D is and always was about telling stories, sometimes helped by WOTC/TSR but still being told by a DM. Games which are in the genre or setting, or which tell a story to me are just movies.

NWN2 is not even seen it's potential yet, there is so much that can be done with it in the way of stories and in how far the engine can be pushed. I've been able to see it mature from a complete mess to a very strong engine, and it's really after considerable time just hit it's stride.

It is up to Atari whether they want to take advantage of that. I am just one of many who is building new things.

I see purgatorio, i see cthulu and it's custom magic system, i see custom systems like the depths, i see lost dungeons of adventures which lets you actually sail ships, and i see many worlds based on the forgotten realms, i see new models from robinson workshop. And i see Bouncy rock working on Misery Stone. And guess what, each of these is at the standards of Official Content or just plain better. Each is it's own expansion. I even see more new classes done in a month than were released in the last expansion, and my world alone has more new custom spells than the last two expansions, and there is an entire community involved with this game.

There are going to be new expansions, adventure packs and online worlds, nothing can stop it. NWN2 is not going anywhere, but it can go further with official support. But that which already has been put in our hands is just taking a while to coax out as we learn how to use it.

Perhaps there is a need for instant gratification - some things just take a while, you see it in TV shows like Star Trek or Seinfeld which took a long time to take off. And there is a need to get the word out. But the substance is there, this can be made much bigger.

So here are my lowly numbers, one single server, who's been up since shortly after the release of NWN2. Just one of many, and there are more being developed. Each with small numbers, but that number of 4 on average, and a max of 12 today translates to 50 people who bought ALL 3 expansions, for likely a total of $40 each which gives you $2000. My old forums had 7,000 registered users easily.

Dungeon Eternal

I wonder how much a larger world like Dragon Coast Has

Or baldurs Gate

Or Sundren

Or Realms of Trinity

Of which only some of them have the new downloader working. I add up those 5 worlds which are of some size except for mine, and i notice that the charts seem to total around 150 by rough estimation. This site has the various stats and you can find a lot more people if you look. Those are worlds just now figuring out how to use the downloader, just 5 of them which are not even all using it yet. And i can say i've provided gameplay to a mere 50 people (not counting myself ) which i estimate contributed $2000 for the game, at just 10 or so on my chart but my chart will change daily since its a real time snap shot fo the current last 24 hours, that extraplates to 15 times that for the combined servers shown, or $30,000.

Now if those few add up to 150, where do you get that number of only 150, what meaning does it have if it represents many more who don't happen to play 24 hours a day and instead only hop on for an hour or two, or a day.

My chart will go up and down, to me it does not matter since i am building and perfecting a world which has a lot it needs still. And the number of distinct players will just keep rising. And i point out just Persistent worlds, the single player modules and content are also just taking off and i hear that i am just small numbers compared to them. Here is the overland map from Misery Stone I am even told that PVP does not work in D&D, and yet i have a nice cozy little playerbase who thinks it does, and of course i've actually done the work of "making it work". It always comes down to that, it's a choice really, things work if you put the effort into "making them work" which those with eternally negative views seem to never want to do.

I am sure some will wish to just shoot down any potential success, to argue how everything is meaningless, but for an admin of a world who is seeing success in the way i measure it, that the very few i serve in my world are having fun, to me a full server with 30 on it at one time is just fine and a good success for me to aspire to. To those i wonder why they insist on digging in their heels and setting the brakes when others wish to lead this game to reach it's true potential. Really in my mind i can only say to them, lead, follow, or get out of the way.

The product is in your Hands Atari, for you to sell or not sell, to develop or not develop. But i can say it's not going to return value without both investing some in it even if it's just adventure packs, and actually selling it. It is going to take a lot of time to develop a new game, and i really hope that you can wait to release that game until after it is fully tested and completely solid, and the only way to do that is to actually keep supporting NWN2 until that game is ready to be released. But nothing is going to make NWN2 work, no matter how great it is, unless the folks who love games like this hear about the fun those of us inside this game are actually having.

AstralWanderer · 07-27-2009, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WebShaman

...I would rather that they spend them on something that has more value to more players, than an XP for a barely alive game.

Good point - the world needs more Driv3r and Transformers sequels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WebShaman

What would be really nice is to see Atari spend the bucks to get rid of DRM on all their products (or at least SecuRom) and stay that way. That would be well spent resources IMHO.

If anything, that should save Atari money - whether they'll see it that way is another matter...

WebShaman · 07-28-2009, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PainEternal

[i]~snip~ - much ranting and raving but no real content worth addressing

The Online numbers from Gamespy speak volumes about the "death" of NWN2 - no need to go any further.

SP play is a dead horse as well - DA is a sure NWN2 killer and there are not really very many "new" Mods for NWN2 anyway.

I don't think we even need to talk about vaporware here (like Purgatorio) - it has been "in production" longer than MoW!

That a few PWs may be enjoying something of a PB, doesn't mean jack. It is the total PB that is deciding here (because it is a financial question that has to be answered here - is it worth it to fund another XP for NWN2, will there be enough sales?).

And the answer is sadly no, there will not be. This is not some fantasy, this is hard reality here. XPs sell less with the number, this has been readily admited and documented before. Although we do not have any accurate sales information concerning NWN2 (which is telling, in and of itself), we can safely say that MotB sold more than SoZ, which will have sold more than XP3, if it had been produced, that is.

It has also been murmered by Ossian that sales of MoW had some sort of impact on Atari's decision to produce future NWN2 products.

Just look at the amount of "interest" in this thread alone...dead as a dead horse. I mean seriously, are you even paying attention to the numbers here? I get the impression that you are pretty passionate about NWN2 - unfortunately you seem to be totally ignoring the reality of the numbers here.

dunniteowl · 07-28-2009, 09:28 AM

I am going to say that Atari's support is more important at this point than your single point of view, web. Much as I appreciate your claims of fact, those facts, like PainEternal's, are snapshots. The 150 spotted now are not going to be the same 138, or 185, or whatever other number comes up in an hour afterwards. In other words, that single number snapshot does not do justice to this argument, one way or the other.

Also, there are many more people downloading and playing SP modules than those playing in PWs or in MP. Still, the latest 1.23 patch needs time to "prove out" before anyone can claim this game's race is run.

Additionally, claims of 'vaporware' would seem to be out of order as Purgatorio has just been demo released (and it was clearly stated earlier that the team was, in fact, waiting to see what changes the 1.23 patch would have on their efforts.)

Also, there is plenty of room for expansion of this game -- successful expansion I might add. There is an already preinstalled fanbase ready and waiting to have more -- more for which they will pay. Irrespective of the size of this thread in terms of posts. You should know as well as anyone in these and other forums, that post count alone does not measure interest. Many more read than post.

Your points are, though, well taken. You'd rather see Atari spend money on something new as opposed to taking limited resources and spending it on something you are finished with. Perfectly fine, perfectly legit and perfectly fair.

Citing all the other stuff as solid facts, though, is not. It's like pointing to a game's mechanics at beta and saying that, because that's the way it is now (when the beta is out) it will never amount to anything. While the information being used to state an opinion may be factually accurate, what is surmised from it may not be.

While the numbers you state may be factually accurate, they do not necessarily point to the death of this game. Not necessarily even in the financial sense for Atari.

Consider: NWN2 is an already made game. Yes the resources are more limited for each expansion, this much is true. However, those resources are more than likely predicated on a set number of sales, and when those numbers are reached, then a new expansion then has the possibility of a green light. That's when it's time to choose for Atari to do something.

Now let's talk about the funding of a completely new game. I just finished plowing through some articles on gaming and DRM, oddly, and in it they talk about the price of a AAA game. They now are not merely in the millions of dollars, they are running in the high 10's of millions of dollars just to get out the door. And their probability for success runs at about 4% of all the games coming out with which the market has to compete -- and it doesn't really matter which genre -- there's a finite amount of players out there.

Using the logic you propound against an NWN2 expansion, someone could use just as easily to commit to the death of gaming on PCs in general. It hasn't happened, because there's still money in it and plenty of it, even with the great amount of risk associated with a new title. Let us not forget that, even with D&D, nothing is assured. Might I refer to PoR2: RoMD (for those who hate acronyms, that's Pools of Radiance II: Ruins of Myth Drannor) or the Temple of Elemental Evil? Both serious financial disasters for different reasons.

I say, there's still money in NWN2 and plenty of it, relative to the cost of investing more dollars into versus the much heavier (and higher relative risk of success) investment into a new shiny game that, of course, will take some time to finish and develop before another penny comes in from it.

Investing into an engine that already does, versus making a new engine that could is much cheaper. IN this current economic trend, it might actually be wiser, financially, to invest in expansions for much less money (though possibly spending a bit more on them to make them more attractive) than it would be to spend much more heavily on a bet that cannot be measured one way or the other, against a market that no-one can really predict how healthy it will be at time of release.

If nothing else, investing a little for a smaller return (but a definite return) might be a smart way to go for a company that has traditionally had money problems (going back for about 10 years now) and manages, somehow, to survive in spite of all that.

All other issues aside, I am going to simply agree to disagree with you on this one. I think there is plenty of room for expansion (pun intended) and if Atari simply made a little risk in the form of actually advertising the game (which they basically did not do when it came out) and pumped another expansion with an infusion of more cash than they usually do, they could end up succeeding in sales well beyond their expectations.

This, to me, is an opportunity to win back some customer loyalty, make a mark of commitment to one of their "Special" IPs (a la D&D, which they claim is one of their most valued properties to produce) and to reclaim some dollars where investment is lower than a new title altogether and the risk of failure is actually quite low for a "proven" game.

Of course, I don't make Atari's decisions for them, as do none here in this forum, so it's all speculative and opinion, based on things we know. Still, it's important to consider the financial implications beyond just investing in a game that, to some, is 'done.' There's an entire economic reality out there that currently makes investing in new and upcoming titles really risky. There's a lot of issues in this market alone that make investing in gaming on PCs more risky than consoles. There's a lot of issues with attempting to drum up support for new games versus capitalizing on something already there that can return cash quickly for relatively small outlay.

All that has to be taken into account. And even Dragon Age: Origins, by your mark, Web, is nothing more at this time, than the vaporware you allow for Purgatorio from Rogue Dao. Is there a playable demo yet? Nope. How long has it been in production? What 4 years now? By your remarks, that should relegate any argument using DA:O as a D&D killer as moot as anyone mentioning Purgatorio. To use them in the same breath as counters to another expansion is, at best, mild hyperbole.

Of course, we are talking about a small indy studio of game fans, versus a respected game development company. Of course, we are talking about the differences in how those are carried out and funded. But, without taking all that into account (just as without considering the current and potential market/economic situations coming up) we cannot readily place it into context.

As I said, just because something is factually true on it's face doesn't make the opinions that are based on it accurate. And, to be fair, it doesn't mean you're wrong, either. I just happen to disagree with you at this time. And I think, if you're not in favor of another expansion, all you really had to do was place in your first post and leave it at that.

And others who disagreed, could have simply said, they were in favor and also left it at that.

Now, this is what we have, a little more life in the thread and possibly more readers and more posters. So thanks for that.

In the meantime, let's, all of us, consider that each person's point of view is just as valid for them to state as ours is. Beyond that, I don't think we're really going to change anyone else's minds, possibly including Atari's. As they haven't said "boo" this, like all other threads for or against, is nothing more than speculation in an information vacuum.

best regards,
dunniteowl

WebShaman · 07-28-2009, 10:33 AM

Purgatorio is just a MOD, DO. It is nowhere comparable to an entire game like DA : O.

And you know it.

I do not care what sort of excuses they use to justify the non-existence of it.

And a "demo" doesn't mean anything to me either.

Produce the finished product.

Amen.

Should they actually release it, then it will cease to be vaporware. Until that point (especially after all the "Purgatorio should be released around X", so reminescent of MoW it ain't funny) it remains and should be considered vaporware.

I mean, Dark Waters is finished and released, fer cryin' out loud!

The Gamespot "snapshot" explanation that you all so like to drag out (since Rob started it) is not relevant here, and you know that as well. Quite frankly, I am surprised that you would use it.

Regardless of what it "truly represents", the FACT is that it is so much less than NWN, it is not funny. And NWN *IS* a done game. Official support for it is finished. So do not come to me saying that you do not know what that means.

It means that NWN2 has failed spectacularly in the MP area, and that it is dead - and 1.23 is not going to change that. There was a prospective "window of opportunity" each time a release came out (that was correspondingly smaller, with each release). I waited until MotB, and then basically knew and read the writing on the wall at that time.

This is not to say that NWN2 does not have a MP Playerbase - obviously there is one, albeit of nano stature. But MP here is not the issue, nor is it anything that Atari will take into consideration for another XP (and again, you know that as well). Atari takes into consideration the SP sales (for that is what a 3rd XP will garner in sales, SP sales really).

And we do know that sales of each XP is less than the previous (Bioware has explained this before, for NWN, and Rob mentioned this about NWN2 as well - so these are for all intents and purposes words from the Devs themselves - if they are not factual, then nothing they say is).

Now, we do not know the sales of NWN2 and how they are broken down. Truth is, the figure given from Atari includes sales of NWN and XPs in them together with NWN2 and XPs. And we do not know which is which, other than before NWN2 came out, over 2 million copies of NWN plus XPs had been sold. Of the 1+ million after that, we have no idea how many were of NWN2, of NWN2 XPs and how many were NWN and co (it is still selling copies btw - we get newbies all the time in the forum and it seems that there is a resurgence in MP happening).

Now, that is factual information, at least as factual as I can find it out. If you have more accurate information that you can release, please do.

It is also true (Rob said as much) that it is all up to Atari at this point (though I think that WotC has a thing or two to say as well - I very much wouldn't be surprised if they were not remotely interested in a 3rd XP for NWN2 at this time).

Just looking at this "apeal" thread to Atari for an XP for NWN2 I think shows just how much interest there is - I mean, c'mon! 25 or so posts? And it was started on 08.07.2009??!! I could understand if there were by now thousands or even hundreds, but there simply isn't. And that is not trying to count the actual individuals here (which will be less than 25 IIRC).

So where is the financial incentive for Atari do produce a 3rd XP here? Because quite frankly, I am not seeing it. Please point it out to me, where there are literally thousands upon thousands eagerly waiting to purchase a 3rd XP for NWN2!

As for future products from Atari - it still continues to amaze me that players of D&D games at this time still do not seem to know that Atari has a sole and exclusive right to produce computer based D&D games. So the next one is going to be produced by whom? Oh yeah, right, Atari. Silly me. So if they save their resources to invest in that, perhaps it will be better than spreading limited (and we are talking about Atari here, so one needs to also keep in mind that we really are talking about limited resources here) resources between products.

How about a new Balder's Gate? Let us think about something along those lines, for example.

kalniel · 07-28-2009, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WebShaman

Just looking at this "apeal" thread to Atari for an XP for NWN2 I think shows just how much interest there is - I mean, c'mon! 25 or so posts? And it was started on 08.07.2009??!! I could understand if there were by now thousands or even hundreds, but there simply isn't. And that is not trying to count the actual individuals here (which will be less than 25 IIRC).

I think that's quite a high proportion of the people who read the Atari NWN2 forums - so if you extract that proportion out you could argue there's a huge marketbase.

Try asking the same thing on the Bioboards and you'll get a much larger response for instance.

Quote:

So where is the financial incentive for Atari do produce a 3rd XP here? Because quite frankly, I am not seeing it. Please point it out to me, where there are literally thousands upon thousands eagerly waiting to purchase a 3rd XP for NWN2!

Here's another fact - most people who purchase NWN2 have not and will not read these forums, or even the Bioware forums.

Quote:

As for future products from Atari - it still continues to amaze me that players of D&D games at this time still do not seem to know that Atari has a sole and exclusive right to produce computer based D&D games. So the next one is going to be produced by whom? Oh yeah, right, Atari. Silly me. So if they save their resources to invest in that, perhaps it will be better than spreading limited (and we are talking about Atari here, so one needs to also keep in mind that we really are talking about limited resources here) resources between products.

You do understand that different people have different roles in game development right? Expansions involve an entirely different team than core engine development, design, prototyping etc. Atari are not yet so financially constrained that they can only afford to pay for only a fraction of one developer.

Quote:

How about a new Balder's Gate? Let us think about something along those lines, for example.

Why not? But that's got nothing to do with viability of a third expansion for one of Atari's most successful games.

As well as a third expansion I'd love to see a special anniversary compilation for fans. Evoke the spirit of the excellent collectors editions again, and create a bundle with the game + all expansions + dlc, on as little media as possible (possibly alongside a steam ID to enable digital distribution if the user prefers), all ready patched up properly, alongside some more cool items and maybe mini-adventures.

PainEternal · 07-28-2009, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WebShaman

The Online numbers from Gamespy speak volumes about the "death" of NWN2 - no need to go any further.

SP play is a dead horse as well - DA is a sure NWN2 killer and there are not really very many "new" Mods for NWN2 anyway.

I don't think we even need to talk about vaporware here (like Purgatorio) - it has been "in production" longer than MoW!

That a few PWs may be enjoying something of a PB, doesn't mean jack. It is the total PB that is deciding here (because it is a financial question that has to be answered here - is it worth it to fund another XP for NWN2, will there be enough sales?).

And the answer is sadly no, there will not be. This is not some fantasy, this is hard reality here. XPs sell less with the number, this has been readily admited and documented before. Although we do not have any accurate sales information concerning NWN2 (which is telling, in and of itself), we can safely say that MotB sold more than SoZ, which will have sold more than XP3, if it had been produced, that is.

It has also been murmered by Ossian that sales of MoW had some sort of impact on Atari's decision to produce future NWN2 products.

Just look at the amount of "interest" in this thread alone...dead as a dead horse. I mean seriously, are you even paying attention to the numbers here? I get the impression that you are pretty passionate about NWN2 - unfortunately you seem to be totally ignoring the reality of the numbers here.

You are looking to use math as an argument. You do not want me telling my small PW about this thread, it will do absolutely no good, but it will seem like single player does not exist. The folks on my PW never post on the offical forums, or here.

You are grabbing numbers basically out of your rear end, 150 is a number you want, and i grabbed numbers and charts that clearly show your numbers do not make sense. To me that means your primary goal is not to show the truth, but to find facts that support your arguments.

The OC, SOZ and MOTB are just mods. Planescape has new models, over a gigs worth, new classes - 10 of them, Voice overs, Cutscenes, a movie trailer and finished areas, which happen to already provide as much content as any "official" module. But that does not count since it's just a demo, a demo which i am actually using the content from on my PW? For the single player crowd this game is for all intents and purposes just as good as a full expansion. Yeah it's slow to come out, but they did hire Monty to work on SoZ from the purgatorio team and it's had help from the entire NWN2 modding community.

Dragon age in comparison is a "real" game, it's gods gift to gaming, but you don't know the bugs, it is not released, and it's not going to have anything more than single player. It is just another module with a lot less features, no dm client, no worlds, and the exact same nwscript. It also is going to be just as hard to develop with as nwn2 since it also does not use tiles like nwn1. Add in the fact it's not had 2 years to fix bugs and i know it will have issues. I remember Age of Conan was going to be the death of NWN2 at one time too, but the D&D license adds a lot more value than folks realize. As for the fancy new features like arrays, we got something similar in 1.23, and the torches that light or blow out in a gust of wind or a fireball, i scripted that already.

NWN2 is not dead, the vault keeps growing, and folks keep doing new things. Just the featueres added from Purgatorio like mechanical rotating gears, Monodrons, Duodrons, Cranial Rats, Flying Books, Moving Portals, gigs of placeables and planescape buildings and new tilesets give as much as SoZ or MoTB did to my PW. Note that these are things i took from the Preview release and they are playable now in my PW which to me is not vaporware. The voice overs are there too, it's just something that is not a full release yet until it's at quality equal or better than official content.

It's still growing. Folks are still active. And NWN2 will have a strong community long after Dragon Age dies down. And for that matter NWN1 will too. This is not based on numbers, it's based on me seeing new things on the vault and going wow, i did not know you could do that.

Really from what i can tell you would have had the same argument when the game first released. Obviously this game is not what you want in a game, but you cannot please everyone. But this is not fair for those of us for whom this game is what we want in a game. PW's are not dead, they are very active, and we have quite a few about to be released that have been in development. Who knows the effect of 1.23 on the community, but it's already seems very hopeful.

I've seen many PW's die, and i've seen the decline of NWN1. The worlds i played on in NWN1 except for Dex1 are at this point dead. While it seems like it's going strong, many major PW's have shut down in NWN1 and the remaining players basically merged old worlds for new ones. What you see in the NWN1 numbers is a pale shadow of the numbers at it's height, and it's clearly in decline. It just looks bigger as a snapshot because it was so big at one time that even at it's now 1% of what it was it dwarfs NWN2, it still is true that the number of PW's and the playerbase is increasing. Just compare NWN as a whole to WoW, or even any game and you'd assume all games are dead except for WoW who has at any time enough players as are in the state of Illinois. NWN2 until 1.23 did not even really work for PW's, so we will see what happens next. As it is NWN2 is in clearly growing, adding new worlds and the old worlds are adding new features, and the player numbers are increasing.

WebShaman · 07-28-2009, 06:07 PM

Well, seems that some are so passionate about the game that they refuse to read the writing on the wall. No great loss. To Kalniel - the point is (and DO spelled it out, as did Rob over on the NWN2 forums before his...ahhh..departure) Atari is the sole "stumbling block" so to speak. If one "pops" over to the DRM thread on this same forum, one will see oodles of posts...and I think that is about removing DRM from...among others, NWN2, right? Lots of interest in that thread...not much here. Heck, even on The Vault, there has not been more than 1500 votes about an extra XP! And I believe that this thread here was linked from the NWN2 forum as well IIRC. For those who think there is lots of interest in an XP3, just where are you getting your factual information from? Because all the indicators that I can find are pointing towards the opposite.

07-08-2009, 12:37 PM	#1
Kunikos Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 22	Third expansion pack? Is it possible that there will be a third expansion pack made for NWN2? I heard that sales of SoZ were pretty good, and I'll bet MoW has sold decently (considering how long it took to come out). If a third expansion pack comes out they should throw MoW in with the new NWN2 Platinum pack so it is on disc and remove the DRM completely eventually to help support the custom content community (encrypted files mean you can't view their module trigger scripts and incorporate them into overrides).

07-10-2009, 07:25 AM	#3
kalniel irregular Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 2,442	MoW is not an expansion pack. I'd love there to be a third expansion pack, but more adventure packs like MoW would be welcome too. __________________ Please don't message me requesting technical help. If you have a problem post a new thread in the relevant game forum and include your dxdiag report - then more people can either help or be helped by a common solution.

07-13-2009, 09:45 PM	#7
dunniteowl Jack of All Trades, Level 12, Philosopher, Level 21 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Bastrop, TX. Truly pretty close to nowhere. Posts: 107	All Aboard for An NX3~! Although I am unhappy with the SecureROM issues and think it's a poor way to conduct a business model, I would still like to post my support for an NX3. I like NWN2. It's not perfect, but it's better than anything else out there in order for me to attempt to bring my PnP stories to a computer near you. I think a 3rd expansion (*and as many Adventure Packs, a la Mysteries of Westgate as you can manage, please) would be an opportunity to promote this game the way it should have been from the first. You have a license to exclusively produce computer related D&D products and yet, it seems, you fail to even send a shout out to the WotC forums to let them know there is another way to enjoy D&D. Weird. I would be very supportive of an NX3 and an NX4 and I would definitely buy them as long as more content, more assets, improvements to the base code and the toolset functions, and a decent to really good story (read, a module most call a game) came along with it. And, please, bear in mind, you get back what you put into it. I know funding tends to drop off with each Expan$ion Pack, but if you were to add a little extra funding for the next one and budget more for advertising, then get the word out. I'm sure you'd have a ready market. There are so few choices for RPGs that really are RPGish, and you're the only game in town for D&D cRPGs. You should respect your core audience and cater to it, as well as do your best to induce others to get interested. Remember, you get back what you put into it. From my perspective, in today's market and economy, banking on a franchise you've already got with a known and quantifiable hit, adding to it would be a much lower risk model than putting out something new. It's working for the Sims, Empire: Total War, and others. It could work for you too. I know I'd buy it if it came out and I know that many others would as well. best regards, dunniteowl

07-14-2009, 01:24 AM	#8
Angelis Dania Chief Editor of Nonsense Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 36	Yes please. Please don't quit on NWN2 now. It's just starting to get somewhere. Do the unexpected and push some proper funding into a new expansion, and make it a major one, (i.e. pull out all the stops). The domino effects of this strategy will earn you such a community following as to make people buy your games based only on the fact that you are the publisher. Show us that this game means something to you.

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07-09-2009, 04:53 PM	#2
jonnin Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 89	third? Its already on 4 or so? Mask, MOW, SOZ are 3, and I thought there was one more in there. I suspect the next one will be a new engine, this one is years old, so look for nwn3 before you look for additional feed to the old engine. (this is purely a guess).

07-12-2009, 02:48 PM	#4
nicethugbert Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 8	+1 to expansion pack, with level cap raise and KC continuation muahahaha

07-13-2009, 04:16 PM	#5
PainEternal Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 10	Please give us another expansion. Each patch is making the game better, and it's really gotten to be quite polished. Definitely i know i will be in line, and quite a few other folks i know will also look forward to another expansion. The biggest issue with the game is most people who are into D&D have not heard about it, this is something that people are surprised about when i explain and show them what this game is capable of. Make a new expansion, get it on the shelves, or online and really market it to death. We've got a vibrant community, many varied persistent worlds, lots of folks DMing, and lot's of single player modules, and even single player campaigns as big as a full expansion. Lots of life left in this game and hopefully Atari realizes it can be worth the investment. I really don't think the full potential of this game has even been touched yet.

07-13-2009, 09:03 PM	#6
Drakkon Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3	I agree, another expansion for this game would be great!

07-14-2009, 01:37 PM	#9
Lazarus Magni Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1	I too would definitely like to see another expansion. I would hope that it would include a raise in the level cap, corresponding epic character progression, something to make joining multiplayer games more user friendly, new content, bug fixes, and a whole host of other stuff to secure the NWN2 legacy and long term viability similar to NWN1. Here are a couple of links discussing similar topics from the bioware boards. http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums...4038&forum=109 http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums...5196&forum=109

07-14-2009, 03:51 PM	#10
kungfoowiz Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3	I would like to see some more music in the next expansion, and I would positively love to see some more placeables for the game. I don't think we could ever have enough placeables. For example, I'd like some more dungeon-styled placeables, and more fantasy-themed town and city elements. I found the ones in the original game for example, they looked far too urbanite for my tastes. Some more fantasy and elven ones though would go down very well with me. Well, here's to the next expansion then. I'm certainly looking forward to what you folks decide upon. Thank you. Edward

07-14-2009, 05:44 PM	#11
Kunikos Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 22	Give me another MotB but different and I'll be a happy camper: 1) Goes to epic levels 2) Great storytelling 3) Great options for evil characters SoZ wasn't that great because the storytelling I think suffered without strong NPCs. So, yeah, more like Torment and less like Icewind Dale.

07-15-2009, 05:20 AM	#12
WebShaman Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 42	This is a post in opposition to a NWN2 X3. I will not buy it or support it at all. Time to let NWN2 die as it is doing now. Best to bury it and get on with things IMHO.

07-19-2009, 12:39 PM	#13
Sblade Inspector Switchblade Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Spain Posts: 546	I agree with Webshaman. After seeing last NWN 2 patch. Let NWN 2 to bury and die. And remove Securom at last and show some decency

07-20-2009, 01:09 PM	#15
Kunikos Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 22	I don't get it. You want them to stop making expansions but then support it by making code changes to remove SecuROM? What makes you think they would do any more patches if there are no more planned adventure packs or expansions? Also, there have been zero officially announced D&D products (either 3.5E or 4E) so this is all that fans have at the moment aside from MMO type stuff like D&D Online (which is going free).

07-20-2009, 09:46 PM	#17
AstralWanderer Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 82	I'd vote for a new expansion also - though if Atari retains SecuROM (or any similar media check) then I will hold off purchase until a no-cd patch becomes available. There is a lot that can be added (and fixed...) to the game engine and adding an adventure that wraps up the OC/MotB campaign would be a good way to close the series. Including MoW as an option would be a good idea in gaining sales from those (like myself) who boycott any software requiring online activation.

07-22-2009, 03:42 AM	#20
WebShaman Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 42	Oh yeah, 150+ online players is really a thriving MP Playerbase Get real.

07-22-2009, 07:10 AM	#21
kungfoowiz Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3	Why spoil the fun for everyone else? I would definitely like to see another expansion pack with some more goodies in it. The new game isn't perfect, nor was Neverwinter Nights 1, but the game has been getting better with each expansion. Here's a proposition, if the Atari company wouldn't like to produce the next expansion pack for Neverwinter Nights 2, then perhaps some custom content designers could form a team (Rogue Dao Studios for example) and produce a community expansion. This would be similar to Mysteries of Westgate, although a step further in terms of production. It would also be an interesting prospect for aspiring game designers, as well as developers (scripters), to get a taste of how the game industry works. What do you think?

07-22-2009, 11:09 AM	#22
WebShaman Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 42	This is not "spoiling" the fun for everyone else - on the contrary. Atari has limited resources to spend. I would rather that they spend them on something that has more value to more players, than an XP for a barely alive game. Even though I am not a fan of 4e, I know that there are those who are. Perhaps plans for a NWN3 or something similar should be made to produce such a game, instead of wasting precious resources on an XP for a game that hardly anyone is playing. What would be really nice is to see Atari spend the bucks to get rid of DRM on all their products (or at least SecuRom) and stay that way. That would be well spent resources IMHO.

07-27-2009, 05:59 AM	#23
PainEternal Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 10	How about you get real. I see your statements as adding nothing, but rather just getting in the way, with some desire to block this bird in the hand and making it no more, in some idea that you can get more with those birds in the bush. The grass is not greener in the next yard, the grass is only green when you water it and make it grow. What is your motive, is it Atari's success, or the failure of this game. Really after NWN2 has run it's course, that which replaces it will be a lot more like quite a few other games. I strongly disagree this games course has run out, in fact i propose it is just getting started. What is your agenda, when folks wish to only bring things down it can be of no good. Are you in the kill it so you can play it without any DRM, and it's all about removing a CD check. Or is it in the camp of NWN2 is a threat to NWN1. Or do you just see any request or idea worthy of shooting down just to be a naysayer. There are so many nutty agendas, and all i have to say is i just want to keep getting new stuff, and i want to get things i and my playerbase wants to buy. You seem blind to the fact that the game has just changed, and we now have something which never was possible in NWN1. We can actually make our own worlds, with our own content. Things like this new area i am developing called Oceania http://www.flickr.com/photos/4009786...7620802156907/ wherein the magic actually works like it is underwater, you have to hold your breath and you will drown -- all of this following the rules in the DMG. And that spear is actually a custom spell called eldritch glaive by Kaedrin. I am just one of many who use this game for that toolset, and a new game by all accounts will not have that as a MMO. As for the PW Numbers, the only servers up yet with the new update are the ones who were in the beta. I know our server had no marketing at all and i had 50 new players in a single week ( and i know this since i can see a folder for each player and the character they made ), all of which played longer than an hour. I wonder how well i will do with an actual website, or when i contact my old player base. It's not time to count, or rather you pick the time to count now before we've seen the effects of making PW's work the way they should. I can say for a fact that i had 5 players on my server within a few hours of being up before i even had everything working. From my knowlege the number of servers that have 1.23 AND the downloader i can count on my hand. Just let that replicate across every server. NWN2 is having issues because it never was able to fulfill it's potential. They decided to not even make it level 40 like NWN1 was which if you are an action type ( and most in NWN2 are not ) it makes it seem less of an upgrade and more of a downgrade. Cryptic and DDO and WoW, all great games, but they are not my campaign, they are not my story, and run by my DM's. This game happens to have captured, both with NWN1 and NWN2 the spirit of what D&D is, and that is something which those who love D&D have no idea about. D&D is and always was about telling stories, sometimes helped by WOTC/TSR but still being told by a DM. Games which are in the genre or setting, or which tell a story to me are just movies. NWN2 is not even seen it's potential yet, there is so much that can be done with it in the way of stories and in how far the engine can be pushed. I've been able to see it mature from a complete mess to a very strong engine, and it's really after considerable time just hit it's stride. It is up to Atari whether they want to take advantage of that. I am just one of many who is building new things. I see purgatorio, i see cthulu and it's custom magic system, i see custom systems like the depths, i see lost dungeons of adventures which lets you actually sail ships, and i see many worlds based on the forgotten realms, i see new models from robinson workshop. And i see Bouncy rock working on Misery Stone. And guess what, each of these is at the standards of Official Content or just plain better. Each is it's own expansion. I even see more new classes done in a month than were released in the last expansion, and my world alone has more new custom spells than the last two expansions, and there is an entire community involved with this game. There are going to be new expansions, adventure packs and online worlds, nothing can stop it. NWN2 is not going anywhere, but it can go further with official support. But that which already has been put in our hands is just taking a while to coax out as we learn how to use it. Perhaps there is a need for instant gratification - some things just take a while, you see it in TV shows like Star Trek or Seinfeld which took a long time to take off. And there is a need to get the word out. But the substance is there, this can be made much bigger. So here are my lowly numbers, one single server, who's been up since shortly after the release of NWN2. Just one of many, and there are more being developed. Each with small numbers, but that number of 4 on average, and a max of 12 today translates to 50 people who bought ALL 3 expansions, for likely a total of $40 each which gives you $2000. My old forums had 7,000 registered users easily. Dungeon Eternal I wonder how much a larger world like Dragon Coast Has Or baldurs Gate Or Sundren Or Realms of Trinity Of which only some of them have the new downloader working. I add up those 5 worlds which are of some size except for mine, and i notice that the charts seem to total around 150 by rough estimation. This site has the various stats and you can find a lot more people if you look. Those are worlds just now figuring out how to use the downloader, just 5 of them which are not even all using it yet. And i can say i've provided gameplay to a mere 50 people (not counting myself ) which i estimate contributed $2000 for the game, at just 10 or so on my chart but my chart will change daily since its a real time snap shot fo the current last 24 hours, that extraplates to 15 times that for the combined servers shown, or $30,000. Now if those few add up to 150, where do you get that number of only 150, what meaning does it have if it represents many more who don't happen to play 24 hours a day and instead only hop on for an hour or two, or a day. My chart will go up and down, to me it does not matter since i am building and perfecting a world which has a lot it needs still. And the number of distinct players will just keep rising. And i point out just Persistent worlds, the single player modules and content are also just taking off and i hear that i am just small numbers compared to them. Here is the overland map from Misery Stone I am even told that PVP does not work in D&D, and yet i have a nice cozy little playerbase who thinks it does, and of course i've actually done the work of "making it work". It always comes down to that, it's a choice really, things work if you put the effort into "making them work" which those with eternally negative views seem to never want to do. I am sure some will wish to just shoot down any potential success, to argue how everything is meaningless, but for an admin of a world who is seeing success in the way i measure it, that the very few i serve in my world are having fun, to me a full server with 30 on it at one time is just fine and a good success for me to aspire to. To those i wonder why they insist on digging in their heels and setting the brakes when others wish to lead this game to reach it's true potential. Really in my mind i can only say to them, lead, follow, or get out of the way. The product is in your Hands Atari, for you to sell or not sell, to develop or not develop. But i can say it's not going to return value without both investing some in it even if it's just adventure packs, and actually selling it. It is going to take a lot of time to develop a new game, and i really hope that you can wait to release that game until after it is fully tested and completely solid, and the only way to do that is to actually keep supporting NWN2 until that game is ready to be released. But nothing is going to make NWN2 work, no matter how great it is, unless the folks who love games like this hear about the fun those of us inside this game are actually having.

07-28-2009, 09:28 AM	#26
dunniteowl Jack of All Trades, Level 12, Philosopher, Level 21 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Bastrop, TX. Truly pretty close to nowhere. Posts: 107	I am going to say that Atari's support is more important at this point than your single point of view, web. Much as I appreciate your claims of fact, those facts, like PainEternal's, are snapshots. The 150 spotted now are not going to be the same 138, or 185, or whatever other number comes up in an hour afterwards. In other words, that single number snapshot does not do justice to this argument, one way or the other. Also, there are many more people downloading and playing SP modules than those playing in PWs or in MP. Still, the latest 1.23 patch needs time to "prove out" before anyone can claim this game's race is run. Additionally, claims of 'vaporware' would seem to be out of order as Purgatorio has just been demo released (and it was clearly stated earlier that the team was, in fact, waiting to see what changes the 1.23 patch would have on their efforts.) Also, there is plenty of room for expansion of this game -- successful expansion I might add. There is an already preinstalled fanbase ready and waiting to have more -- more for which they will pay. Irrespective of the size of this thread in terms of posts. You should know as well as anyone in these and other forums, that post count alone does not measure interest. Many more read than post. Your points are, though, well taken. You'd rather see Atari spend money on something new as opposed to taking limited resources and spending it on something you are finished with. Perfectly fine, perfectly legit and perfectly fair. Citing all the other stuff as solid facts, though, is not. It's like pointing to a game's mechanics at beta and saying that, because that's the way it is now (when the beta is out) it will never amount to anything. While the information being used to state an opinion may be factually accurate, what is surmised from it may not be. While the numbers you state may be factually accurate, they do not necessarily point to the death of this game. Not necessarily even in the financial sense for Atari. Consider: NWN2 is an already made game. Yes the resources are more limited for each expansion, this much is true. However, those resources are more than likely predicated on a set number of sales, and when those numbers are reached, then a new expansion then has the possibility of a green light. That's when it's time to choose for Atari to do something. Now let's talk about the funding of a completely new game. I just finished plowing through some articles on gaming and DRM, oddly, and in it they talk about the price of a AAA game. They now are not merely in the millions of dollars, they are running in the high 10's of millions of dollars just to get out the door. And their probability for success runs at about 4% of all the games coming out with which the market has to compete -- and it doesn't really matter which genre -- there's a finite amount of players out there. Using the logic you propound against an NWN2 expansion, someone could use just as easily to commit to the death of gaming on PCs in general. It hasn't happened, because there's still money in it and plenty of it, even with the great amount of risk associated with a new title. Let us not forget that, even with D&D, nothing is assured. Might I refer to PoR2: RoMD (for those who hate acronyms, that's Pools of Radiance II: Ruins of Myth Drannor) or the Temple of Elemental Evil? Both serious financial disasters for different reasons. I say, there's still money in NWN2 and plenty of it, relative to the cost of investing more dollars into versus the much heavier (and higher relative risk of success) investment into a new shiny game that, of course, will take some time to finish and develop before another penny comes in from it. Investing into an engine that already does, versus making a new engine that could is much cheaper. IN this current economic trend, it might actually be wiser, financially, to invest in expansions for much less money (though possibly spending a bit more on them to make them more attractive) than it would be to spend much more heavily on a bet that cannot be measured one way or the other, against a market that no-one can really predict how healthy it will be at time of release. If nothing else, investing a little for a smaller return (but a definite return) might be a smart way to go for a company that has traditionally had money problems (going back for about 10 years now) and manages, somehow, to survive in spite of all that. All other issues aside, I am going to simply agree to disagree with you on this one. I think there is plenty of room for expansion (pun intended) and if Atari simply made a little risk in the form of actually advertising the game (which they basically did not do when it came out) and pumped another expansion with an infusion of more cash than they usually do, they could end up succeeding in sales well beyond their expectations. This, to me, is an opportunity to win back some customer loyalty, make a mark of commitment to one of their "Special" IPs (a la D&D, which they claim is one of their most valued properties to produce) and to reclaim some dollars where investment is lower than a new title altogether and the risk of failure is actually quite low for a "proven" game. Of course, I don't make Atari's decisions for them, as do none here in this forum, so it's all speculative and opinion, based on things we know. Still, it's important to consider the financial implications beyond just investing in a game that, to some, is 'done.' There's an entire economic reality out there that currently makes investing in new and upcoming titles really risky. There's a lot of issues in this market alone that make investing in gaming on PCs more risky than consoles. There's a lot of issues with attempting to drum up support for new games versus capitalizing on something already there that can return cash quickly for relatively small outlay. All that has to be taken into account. And even Dragon Age: Origins, by your mark, Web, is nothing more at this time, than the vaporware you allow for Purgatorio from Rogue Dao. Is there a playable demo yet? Nope. How long has it been in production? What 4 years now? By your remarks, that should relegate any argument using DA:O as a D&D killer as moot as anyone mentioning Purgatorio. To use them in the same breath as counters to another expansion is, at best, mild hyperbole. Of course, we are talking about a small indy studio of game fans, versus a respected game development company. Of course, we are talking about the differences in how those are carried out and funded. But, without taking all that into account (just as without considering the current and potential market/economic situations coming up) we cannot readily place it into context. As I said, just because something is factually true on it's face doesn't make the opinions that are based on it accurate. And, to be fair, it doesn't mean you're wrong, either. I just happen to disagree with you at this time. And I think, if you're not in favor of another expansion, all you really had to do was place in your first post and leave it at that. And others who disagreed, could have simply said, they were in favor and also left it at that. Now, this is what we have, a little more life in the thread and possibly more readers and more posters. So thanks for that. In the meantime, let's, all of us, consider that each person's point of view is just as valid for them to state as ours is. Beyond that, I don't think we're really going to change anyone else's minds, possibly including Atari's. As they haven't said "boo" this, like all other threads for or against, is nothing more than speculation in an information vacuum. best regards, dunniteowl

07-28-2009, 10:33 AM	#27
WebShaman Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 42	Purgatorio is just a MOD, DO. It is nowhere comparable to an entire game like DA : O. And you know it. I do not care what sort of excuses they use to justify the non-existence of it. And a "demo" doesn't mean anything to me either. Produce the finished product. Amen. Should they actually release it, then it will cease to be vaporware. Until that point (especially after all the "Purgatorio should be released around X", so reminescent of MoW it ain't funny) it remains and should be considered vaporware. I mean, Dark Waters is finished and released, fer cryin' out loud! The Gamespot "snapshot" explanation that you all so like to drag out (since Rob started it) is not relevant here, and you know that as well. Quite frankly, I am surprised that you would use it. Regardless of what it "truly represents", the FACT is that it is so much less than NWN, it is not funny. And NWN IS a done game. Official support for it is finished. So do not come to me saying that you do not know what that means. It means that NWN2 has failed spectacularly in the MP area, and that it is dead - and 1.23 is not going to change that. There was a prospective "window of opportunity" each time a release came out (that was correspondingly smaller, with each release). I waited until MotB, and then basically knew and read the writing on the wall at that time. This is not to say that NWN2 does not have a MP Playerbase - obviously there is one, albeit of nano stature. But MP here is not the issue, nor is it anything that Atari will take into consideration for another XP (and again, you know that as well). Atari takes into consideration the SP sales (for that is what a 3rd XP will garner in sales, SP sales really). And we do know that sales of each XP is less than the previous (Bioware has explained this before, for NWN, and Rob mentioned this about NWN2 as well - so these are for all intents and purposes words from the Devs themselves - if they are not factual, then nothing they say is). Now, we do not know the sales of NWN2 and how they are broken down. Truth is, the figure given from Atari includes sales of NWN and XPs in them together with NWN2 and XPs. And we do not know which is which, other than before NWN2 came out, over 2 million copies of NWN plus XPs had been sold. Of the 1+ million after that, we have no idea how many were of NWN2, of NWN2 XPs and how many were NWN and co (it is still selling copies btw - we get newbies all the time in the forum and it seems that there is a resurgence in MP happening). Now, that is factual information, at least as factual as I can find it out. If you have more accurate information that you can release, please do. It is also true (Rob said as much) that it is all up to Atari at this point (though I think that WotC has a thing or two to say as well - I very much wouldn't be surprised if they were not remotely interested in a 3rd XP for NWN2 at this time). Just looking at this "apeal" thread to Atari for an XP for NWN2 I think shows just how much interest there is - I mean, c'mon! 25 or so posts? And it was started on 08.07.2009??!! I could understand if there were by now thousands or even hundreds, but there simply isn't. And that is not trying to count the actual individuals here (which will be less than 25 IIRC). So where is the financial incentive for Atari do produce a 3rd XP here? Because quite frankly, I am not seeing it. Please point it out to me, where there are literally thousands upon thousands eagerly waiting to purchase a 3rd XP for NWN2! As for future products from Atari - it still continues to amaze me that players of D&D games at this time still do not seem to know that Atari has a sole and exclusive right to produce computer based D&D games. So the next one is going to be produced by whom? Oh yeah, right, Atari. Silly me. So if they save their resources to invest in that, perhaps it will be better than spreading limited (and we are talking about Atari here, so one needs to also keep in mind that we really are talking about limited resources here) resources between products. How about a new Balder's Gate? Let us think about something along those lines, for example.

07-28-2009, 06:07 PM	#30
WebShaman Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 42	Well, seems that some are so passionate about the game that they refuse to read the writing on the wall. No great loss. To Kalniel - the point is (and DO spelled it out, as did Rob over on the NWN2 forums before his...ahhh..departure) Atari is the sole "stumbling block" so to speak. If one "pops" over to the DRM thread on this same forum, one will see oodles of posts...and I think that is about removing DRM from...among others, NWN2, right? Lots of interest in that thread...not much here. Heck, even on The Vault, there has not been more than 1500 votes about an extra XP! And I believe that this thread here was linked from the NWN2 forum as well IIRC. For those who think there is lots of interest in an XP3, just where are you getting your factual information from? Because all the indicators that I can find are pointing towards the opposite.